Yeah, imagine what would happen if NArdelli tried getting on TV saying "If you can find a better car buy it!" It would certain spur everyone else's sales...
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
Good luck selling cars right now in Michigan. I'd rather be selling freezers to Eskimos in the Arctic.
In those articles from the UAW, I did not see one word about helping the Big 3 through this mess with Union concessions. It was all about the tax payers giving to the Big 3.
Here is a funny satire on the sub prime for those that have not seen it.
You think it will be paid back? Really? Come on, seriously?
I don't think so!
DETROIT (AP) -- In recent months, General Motors has been burning through about $3.1 million an hour, or $52,000 -- the price of a well-equipped Chevy Tahoe SUV -- every minute.
How much longer can this go on? And perhaps more important, can GM hang on until Barack Obama and the new Congress can come to the rescue?
'in recent months' the Big 3 have been making serious attempts at cutting back 'every which way they can' many angles in many directions(following through with suggestions.., recommendations a few team meetings here and there) - including lessing the number of employees and closing plants.., don't know what effect it will have in the future, it would not be an immediate cure, maybe the upper management knows more about that. but i dont' think you are an expert analyst either.
g: wrote : "Here is a funny satire on the sub prime for those that have not seen it. " Hilarious g, ja wohl mein perpetrator of that which is funny. Please respond with a message to dukeourl15@gmail .com since mein may violate community standards, so that I may reciprocate. Humor will see us though.
They would probably pay back the loan without making a profit for that year.
But this football has been fantastic this year and I am going with the Giants without a doubt. The Jets and Titans are putting on a great show, the Bears looking tough, it may be up to Big Ben for the Steelers, the Dolphins look the about the same.., where's all the football in California, the Steelers will kick but against the Chargers this Sunday, the Panthers are wild, but it will be the Giants in the end, you will see.
I am not an expert analyst. Whatever they are doing, it is not enough. Too little too late. Now, drastic cuts will be needed. So, if there are 40 plants 20 need to go.
Well, if they're on crack to bailout the Big Three, then they were shooting up heroin with a turkey baster, snorting coke with the assistance of a vacuum cleaner and smoking blunts the size of telephone poles while swilling Everclear out of flower vases when they bailed out the banks and Wall Street.
Yes, they are addicted. What a Congress. Oh, and Bush urged Congress to find money for the Auto Addicts from sources other than the $700B for Banks and Wall Street...whats fair is fair, now! :surprise:
You don't want to sell DirecTV. you picked up on many of the problems.
I read some of the UAW propaganda. I guess the part that upsets me is the US has already lost 1.2 million jobs this year (that's million with an M), This doesn't include all the job layoffs for the month of November. DHL suspends all US operations and lays off over 9,000. Circuit City files bankruptcy. They aren't getting bailouts and these are Americans that are losing their jobs.
Pretty much the UAW needs to keep their mouths shut on this issue. Americans are losing their jobs and homes around the country. The last thing they want to hear is a union worker making $78/hour begging for the government to save their company. They are right that people in California don't understand Detroit. But the UAW needs a dose of reality and get out of their bubble in Detroit. It's 2008, no one is guaranteed a job anymore. the head of UAW should demand a meeting with Rick Wagoner and figure out a way to keep GM alive sans government bailout. It's in the workers best interest to keep GM alive. Right now, the votes are not there in Congress to pass a bailout and GM won't last until Jan. 20th. I'm not sure GM can live up to the conditions the lawmakers want to put on a potential bailout anyway.
his brother got a new GM car for 35% under MSRP. Who is going to take that loss?
These days, when 85% or so of the car loans are upside down (where one owes more than the fair market value) manufacturers are padding the MSRP. So it won't look as if they are financing the difference on a trade in. That might upset banks in the unlikely case of repossession. Also a big reason for GAP insurance. Zero down, employee/UAW pricing, and other sales gimmicks flood the used car market, as each sale more than likely results in another trade in being put on the market. Adding to that is the fact that the new car becomes a used car as soon as its driven off the lot. So we have seen a considerable amount of cars glutting the market, and price being the rationing mechanism, they lose value fast.
MSRP is adjusted by region too, as so are incentives, to move inventory. However, some fees are equalized, like destination. So MSRP should be suggested MSRP. I've been fascinated at the way Walmart/Sams adjust price across the nation as well as on a local/same city basis. Then too a cell phone family plan is $4 a month in Brazil (adjusted for dollar), Canada and Mexico pay far less for drugs, and many others. They don't want everyone to have one, just the majority of the population. One could coin this the law of maximizing returns.
In the long run if your workers are costing you $75 per hour and you competition is paying $48 all the loans in the world won't save you.
When Benz purchased Chrysler, they were amazed at the lower UAW wages in comparison to those in Germany. However, the Benz CEO was being compensated far less than the Chrysler CEO. Yet Benz was more profitable and able to aquire Chrysler.
BMW is another example of a winner who pays far more than the UAW wages.
I think Congress is on crack if they pass this bailout! Might as well be!
You should also be aware that those who got fire sale deals on the subprime failed banks, will be able to use their losses to offset their profits. They didn't even ask congress to approve that. Bush and company, just changed the tax laws to help their rich buddies. So the 700 billion will be more than 850 billion as a conservative estimate.
So whats a few billion more for the Big Three?
Section 382 of the tax code was created by Congress in 1986 to end what it considered an abuse of the tax system: companies sheltering their profits from taxation by acquiring shell companies whose only real value was the losses on their books. The firms would then use the acquired company's losses to offset their gains and avoid paying taxes.
Well, if they're on crack to bailout the Big Three, then they were shooting up heroin with a turkey baster, snorting coke with the assistance of a vacuum cleaner and smoking blunts the size of telephone poles while swilling Everclear out of flower vases when they bailed out the banks and Wall Street.
you know lemko, you and I don't agree on hardly anything, but that is an outstanding post!
BMW is another example of a winner who pays far more than the UAW wages.
BMW makes great cars. If GM made great cars then perhaps the labor premium would be worth it. The market has spoken and guess what - UAW is not worth it!
Speak of which, their collective bargaining agreement (NFL) is due next year. Since Mr. Gene Upshaw isn't with us any more, they might need the UAW to bleed those owners, who bled the taxpayers for stadiums. In turn the owners could out source that to Japan or China.
Before you can pay as much, you need to have a product. BTW, BMW moved some of its production to South Africa, Benz and BMW have also production here in the South, where they pay far less for it. Yes, they may be paying more for their labor both in terms per hour and per unit of production, but their designs and marketing teams were able to convince enough people to compansate for it in forms of premium prices paid. GM has never been able to do it, even on its best-selling premium vehicles.
It's sort of like McDonald's "mop manager" complaining about Starbucks register gal getting better wage and benefits. Of course she does - she works at place the "mop manager" may or may not be qualified to work, but ultimately she sells a product that until recently was THE PRODUCT. BTW, not even Sturbucks could take it - it is already shrinking, closing stores, etc. So far they're trying not to cut on that gal, but wait long enough and they will - if for some reason $4 latte stops being THE PRODUCT. And it seems it's going that way - just watch out the register gal.
I was listening to news pundants talking about the UAW and they said that an average GM employee makes 75 dollars and hour when a Toyota employee who works in the US makes 40 per hour. Why would GM agree to a pay scale that is that ridiculous?
I favor government aid to the domestic auto makers, but with significant caveats.
I believe it would be a mistake for the government to attempt to bail out the automotive sector without demanding concessions from labor that would essentially bring its costs in line with non-union ones. Some differences in the work rules could remain in place, so long as their economic impact is minor. This would be harsh for the auto industry workers, but anything less would be unfair to tax payers and workers in other industries. Also, anything less would ultimately fail since, in addition to manufacturing products that people choose to buy - a huge challenge, given current consumer preferences - the domestic auto industry must be cost competitive to survive.
I think it would be very difficult, but perhaps not impossible in the current environment, for the Obama administration to demand the concessions from organized labor that are essential for the long-term viability of the domestic auto makers, but without them I believe any financial help would be doomed to fail. One could argue that it would have been easier for a McCain administration to play hardball with the unions, since they didn't enjoy much union support. On the other hand, there's the "it took a Nixon to go to China in the '70s" argument. It says that, because Obama had strong union support, he is in a better position to extract concessions than McCain would have been. He would have to use all of his considerable political skills to obtain the necessary compromises, though, and that's after he's persuaded Nancy Pelosi and others to side with him. At this point we don't even know if President elect Obama has the desire and will to demand major concessions from the unions, in exchange for government help.
A major argument for throwing a lifeline to the auto sector is that its demise would increase unemployment. The degree of the increase is arguable, but more jobs would be retained, even with a shrunken domestic auto sector than without one. In addition, for a variety of reasons that are unique to this industry, including the long lead times required to design and introduce new products, the volatility of fuel prices plus the impact of the credit crisis, a good case can be made that the perfect storm has impacted autos more severely than other industries.
Should Washington demand that the auto makers be forced to only produce green cars, as a condition for receiving aid? Absolutely not! Detroit has to produce cars that consumers want to buy, and despite a series of bad calls in the past, auto industry managers are more in tune with consumer needs and desires than politicians are. In addition to being bad strategy, it would be even a worse precedent to permit Washington to dictate auto design, beyond what it already does with safety, emissions and fuel economy standards.
The following two caveats should be added to the ones listed in my previous message:
First, management should be strongly encouraged, if not required, to reduce its compensation until the companies' viability is restored. For this effort to succeed, it's important that management lead by example, and there should be shared sacrifice.
Second, the demand for domestic vehicles needs to be stimulated. I would favor an appeal to patriotism in this time of need. To that end, the industry should mount a strong marketing campaign to encourage consumers to consider a domestic brand before they buy their next vehicle. It could be useful for the industry to appoint one or more respected, charismatic spokesperson to make its case with consumers.
"...You think it will be paid back? Really? Come on, seriously?..."
No, unfortunately, I think that corporate morality has changed since 1980. I think that the bums who run the companies and the unions both will grab what they can for themselves and say to hell with everybody else. Short term thinking with no honor. Sad.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
>"I was listening to news pundants talking about the UAW and they said that an average GM employee makes 75 dollars and hour when a Toyota employee who works in the US makes 40 per hour. Why would GM agree to a pay scale that is that ridiculous? "
That $75 per hour includes paid vacation, paid holidays, paid sick time, paid health care, pensions, and other paid items. The hourly wage included in the pay check is more on the order of $28-$30+ per hour. But all the " Extra" compensation adds up fast.
The Toyota workers "PAY" is more on the order of $18-$20 per hour plus bennefits. Less bennefits than the UAW workers. Still that is more than the guy at another type manufacturing facility in the same area earns.
>"Why would GM agree to a pay scale that is that ridiculous? "
When times were good and strikes were threats, management caved in so that manufacturing will continue. Then when times are not good, they have to live with those decisions. Or maybe, we the tax payers do. :sick:
That's where I have a problem "LOANING" or GIVING Billions of dollars to them unless they have a serious change in management, and in union concessions. The money will be gone in a heartbeat. How would they pay it back???
Isn't that like "LOANING" money to someone that has too much debt to pay their mortgage. Unless they have a major life style change, they will be back in the same boat as soon as the "loan" is used up.
The "Golden Egg" Laying Goose has been strangled to a point that it is gasping it's last breaths. Unless those doing the strangling stop, and those that allow it to happen are dealt with, the goose will die.
UAW workers may say,"Well, I'm not going to work for $20 per hour and lose some sick days and some days off. I'm not going to contribute to my healthcare. I don't think slackers should loose their jobs. Obama is going to look out for us"
> I wish I would have made anywhere close to that figure.
You did. That includes cost of pension and healthcare projections far into the future till your and your dependents' deaths, and everything else, probably even the cost of toilet paper used while working in the plant.
But if we include the costs of all details for management and executive pay plans a parachutes they probably become even more obscene than the cost of concessions at the LOS Colt's home stadium in Indy. $5.50 for drink, $12 for large popcorn, etc.
The real solution is government mandates for executive pay to equal Japanese ratios, send back the foreign car companies building here, and guarantee the auto workers jobs at those pay rates sans any benefits--the newly elected leader will provide all healthcare and pension plans. Everyone will be happy.
OTOH oddly many folk want the government to solve all problems, and to me it looks like the ones who were there 10 years ago causing the financial problems now in return for money to their campaigns and themselves are the ones talking loudly about fixing the problem they caused. Somehow "government fixing problems" is an oxymoron in my mind.
Government isn't going to "fix" the problem caused by allowing unequal competition through the decades in the auto industry.
BMW is another example of a winner who pays far more than the UAW wages.
The automakers in Germany are making wage cuts. They are also setting up plants in the old Soviet Bloc countries. And they are all building vehicles in the USA and making money. Germany has an unemployment rate somewhere around 10%.
A day earlier, Volkswagen said it would build a new sport utility vehicle at its main plant in Wolfsburg rather than in Portugal, but only after extracting a 20 percent wage reduction from its workers.
Let's see? 20% off of the GM wage package would be somewhere around $58 per hour. Better cut the labor costs by 30% at GM. Then after they pay their debts off they can think about giving the labor and management a raise.
Even with the worst case scenario of 3 million jobs lost if the Big 3 goes belly up, we would not have as high unemployment as Germany and most of the EU. That would put our unemployment in the 8.5% range. That is well below the early 1980s when we were close to 10% unemployment. Do you see a pattern?
GM has never been able to do it, even on its best-selling premium vehicles.
I agree with your point. Saturn was to be the "different kind of car company" and they experimented with jobs for life/Asian mantra. Then the Cadillac Catera an Opel/Germen design, which was re-engineered as the CTS (Catera Touring Sedan) and the jury is still out on that. Seems to me that Americans as a whole aren't into the euro mentality. Except in the high end such as BMW/BENZ. Then even so most of the Europeans keep theirs for longer periods (ten to twenty years) and five years is an eon here in America. Do folks want high end stuff or something for the masses which has a shorter lifespan?
Then we also have seen the BMW/BENZ build a lower end to compete with the Toyota/Lexus- Honda/Acura- Nissan/Infinity once they intruded into their traditional high end markets. I feel the more competition the better for the consumer. That being said, I also feel that poor economic times brings out scape goating. Its no more the UAW whom is responsible for the Big Three's woes, than its the UAW whom has any responsibility for the sub prime mess. In the 90s when GM was making billions, they should have put some away for that rainy day which is here.
In the 90s when GM was making billions, they should have put some away for that rainy day which is here.
That is exactly right. Where is that money, would be my question? Same yahoo running the show now as then. Did they piss it all away on failed projects & Fiat? Did Wagoner stash billions in off shore accounts like so many other elitists in this country? Where is the money? We need to get the CIA to start harassing these countries like Switzerland that hide ill gotten gains. Tell US where the money is or you will be invaded. I would not mess around with them. Don't allow any country to hide assets. If the Cayman's are hiding money, target them as terrorists.
That still does not address one of the core issues surrounding the Big 3 demise. They are Paying much higher wages and giving retirees much higher benefits than the competition. That just cannot continue if GM and Ford are to survive.
In the 90s when GM was making billions, they should have put some away for that rainy day which is here
"During the 1990s General Motors' financial fortunes turned around and enabled the company to easily afford a $2 annual dividend. The $2 per share dividend was both affordable and justified in the 1990s but isn't now and hasn't been for several years." link.
If you own stock in a dividend company, you expect to receive you quarterly payments. And that's another reason why companies live quarter to quarter.
When Microsoft sat on all its billions, the shareholders demanded that they payout some of that surplus. And Microsoft did.
GM did set aside lots of dough for reserves, otherwise they'd already be gone by now. They burned up some of it during the Delphi strike. link
The numbers tell the story. In the United States the unemployment rate is holding at about 6.5 percent, despite a booming economic recovery, while in Canada and Western Europe, it averages around 11 percent, with Spain topping the list at 23 percent.
These figures do not take into account the large numbers of workers who are soon to be laid off, as the European Union begins to go through some of the cost-cutting that American industries have already endured.
Japan is at a comfortable unemployment level of 2.9 percent. But that does not include many workers who are kept in make-work jobs as part of Japan's lifetime employment policies.
The problem looks somewhat different from a wage perspective. According to the Labor Department, total compensation -- wages, health benefits, vacations -- for the typical American manufacturing worker has declined slightly or remained flat since the mid-1970's, while in Europe and Japan it has increased by 40 percent. Minimum wage levels tend to be higher in Europe, with cost-of-living increases and four-week annual vacations virtually guaranteed. Average manufacturing compensation in Germany is $26 an hour. In America, it is $16.
What the Labor Department calls low-wage noncollege-educated workers and workers from disadvantaged backgrounds have suffered even more in the United States. In the 1980's, their wages fell 15 to 20 percent when adjusted for inflation, while in Europe and Japan these wages rose about 15 to 20 percent.
But on the flip side, between 1973 and 1991, the United States economy created more than 35 million jobs. In the same period, the European Community generated only eight million new jobs, even though it has about one-third more people.
In large part, this is because of Europe's relatively comfortable social safety nets, which have left many workers preferring to stay on welfare rather than take the sort of low-paying jobs accepted by many workers in the United States. In most of the European Union, an unemployed worker can receive close to $1,000 a month indefinitely. In addition, Europe's highly regulated job markets, where it is very difficult to dismiss workers, have left employers wary of creating jobs. The Potential Lessons.
I favor government aid to the domestic auto makers, but with significant caveats.
I'm of the opinion that labor is not responsible for mis management. American Airlines employees were never rewarded for concession, however, executives made no concessions and reaped rewards. The UAW represents the collective bargaining unit and has little to do with running the business. They have no voice in management and its responsibility to shareholder value.
Again, no one held a gun to managements head and or twisted their arms when they signed the labor agreements. Both parties leave the table feeling that they received something of value and or are better off with their agreement. Its like those who sign a mortgage or car note and have buyers remorse about 10 payments into the agreement. The shareholders are the risk takers and maybe they should be asked to make concessions. If anything management is doing a disservice and or failing to properly represent the shareholders. Contracts should be viewed as sacred covenants and honored. It is both unethical and illegal to go back on one word/agreement. Maybe thats what wrong with society today, till death do you part is meaningless and children are given a poor example by their parents/mentors.
I like that your trying to come up with solutions. In light of the whole thing being a socialist program to benefit capitalist. Its UN American and against core principals of this nation. Its as if the govt is going to buy shares in these industries and later be forced into the operations of what were once privately owned businesses because of the failures of capitalism. I offer no solutions. Just the fact that the taxes/bailouts will be paid by these same auto workers in part and therefore should make any other concessions.
I am not sure your point. It looks to me, that article is saying we are doing a better job in this country than the EU. They are creating an unsustainable welfare state and a lot of lazy good for nothing deadbeats.
They also forgot to mention. German income tax is about 50% on that $26 per hour average. Our CA unemployment is about $450 per week last I checked. Depending on your wages prior to losing your job. That can go on for a year.
In some respects we do much better than the Europe. Others they are by far superior. My observations are that since they do pay higher taxes, they tend to take better care of things as to make them last longer. We on the other hand are a throw away society. They tend to make a big deal about every meal and aren't addicted to less than fresh food. I guess each person would have to make that call about which society is better. There is no argument that Germany is one of the most socialist country in the world and many of those countries overseas have govt sticking their noses into private business matters or things which we perceive to be beyond the role of govt.
Our CA unemployment is about $450 per week last I checked. Depending on your wages prior to losing your job. That can go on for a year.
I was under the assumption that unemployment was 26 weeks and congress would extend it 13 or so weeks, depending on the economy. Also that there was a max, regardless of your wages, is taxable unearned income, and went back to employment status 4 quarters ago (a year prior to seperation from employment).
The shareholders are the risk takers and maybe they should be asked to make concessions.
I would say they have, seeing their stock go down to about 10 cents on the dollar over the last year. Bankruptcy would probably send it to Zero.
Most Union Contracts are for 3 years. That is not until death do us part. I just don't see GM hanging on another 2 years. GM also has the option of locking the gates and hiring all those new 12 million citizens Obama will be swearing in on the 21st of January. Voila' instant cheap labor. That should make you happy. They can move into all the empty homes the UAW workers leave behind. Five families per house. Pay minimum wage and limited benefits.
I just pulled up the CA site and it gave a maximum of $450 as of 2005. Not sure how long it goes for. I know you can get extensions. I only collected Unemployment one time in 1977 when I quit and went to try farming. I think it was 26 weeks and an extension. It was not very much money even back then.
I do agree that some of the things offered by government programs seem nice to fall back on. Every time you give government a place in your life you give up something in return. It is a form of enslavement. It was never more brought to the forefront than during hurricane Katrina. Those people were totally lost without government intervention. They had lost all motivation to survive on their own.
GM also has the option of locking the gates and hiring all those new 12 million citizens Obama will be swearing in on the 21st of January.
UAW or no UAW, GM has problems which have nothing to do with labor issues. All the auto makers are having hard times and this has more to do with economic conditions. However, if the 12 million were to be hired for arguments sake. How many of them would be able to afford GM cars and trucks? How many of those who make sneakers are able to buy a pair of those sneakers?
This is the greatest middle class borne of unions in the history of the world. Which in turn has made America the greatest consumer nation in the history of the planet and the envy of every other nation. Certainly your not suggesting that we race to the bottom?
First, congrats on the almost-hire, and continued good luck on finding the right position.
Thanks.....My interview went very well for the Saturn Job and I'm optomistic enough to believe I will be hired. I'm suppose to call my would be boss next tuesday. I feel my experience and knowledge will be a asset to the dealership and I like the atmosphere !!!
I also want to remind everyone those UAW workers average pay with benefits is much closer to Toyota (within' a couple of dollars) per hour than before. The pay per hour was never $78 an/hr. It was somewhere between $60-65 an hour as Steve Miller, of Delphi was correct in saying !!! The Toyota, workers are 401K only and the only reason why it cost GM, so much money was because they (GM) were behind on their pension fund obligations but made up for it by successfully risking money in the stock-market and pulling out before the collapse. The pension obligations aren't the problem but the VEBA, they agreed too is....I understand some of ya'll are talking about Circuit City, etc but those folks were selling mostly stuff made out of the country and their employees don't make much money to begin with. As the UAW, said they can reward the tax payers by closing plants in Mexico, and building or keeping open american ones. Sure the employees aren't going to make much money but hey they are $14-16 an/hr. jobs and the money will stay here in the U.S.
If i had the opportunity then i would rather take that full $75 per hour without any of those benefits, that $75 per hour is not necessarily correct, it would not be consistent for any length of time.
Over the past few years the Big 3 have been making changes including cutbacks, remodeling, restructuring, I am not sure if general motors broke even with fiat, but is leaving europe. Maybe there was an 'typo' or 3 in the instructions somewhere, and they forgot about the $35 billion end of year tax or something like that.
My GM stock went down to too low so i sold. It's no where near what it was last year, i don't know if it will go up if i start buying so i think i will wait a while.
I think the Big 3 make very good products, especially with those dependable Police cars and other government vehicles, Beaufort(from 'walking tall') i think he drove a hemi.
I think the Big 3 make very good products, especially with those dependable Police cars and other government vehicles, Beaufort(from 'walking tall') i think he drove a hemi.
Buford Pusser was driving a Corvette in '74 when he crashed at high speed and died. Speculation was rife at the time that one of his tie rods had been sawn nearly in two, but that rumor wasn't proved. He had a Lincoln Continental at home too. My mom met the real Buford one time (and no, not in a McNairy County roadhouse, lol).
Back to salaries:
"The current veteran UAW member at GM today has an average base wage of $28.12 an hour, but the cost of benefits, including pension and future retiree health care costs, nearly triples the cost to GM to $78.21, according to the Center for Automotive Research.
By comparison, new hires will be paid between $14 and $16.23 an hour. And even as they start to accumulate raises tied to seniority, the far less lucrative benefit package will limit GM's cost for those employees to $25.65 an hour."
Comments
16%???? Were you on crack when you signed those papers? Man, that's rough.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
In those articles from the UAW, I did not see one word about helping the Big 3 through this mess with Union concessions. It was all about the tax payers giving to the Big 3.
Here is a funny satire on the sub prime for those that have not seen it.
http://captaincapitalism.blogspot.com/2008/11/how-sub-prime-deadbeats-are-like-h- itler.html
I don't think so!
DETROIT (AP) -- In recent months, General Motors has been burning through about $3.1 million an hour, or $52,000 -- the price of a well-equipped Chevy Tahoe SUV -- every minute.
How much longer can this go on? And perhaps more important, can GM hang on until Barack Obama and the new Congress can come to the rescue?
At that rate, the $25B lasts 336 days!!!!!!!!!
$3.1MM per Hour Burn Rate
So when do you propose they pay back the loan? When do you think GM will SWING to the profit side?
I'll take a light stab at it...after restructuring under C11.
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
but i dont' think you are an expert analyst either.
"Here is a funny satire on the sub prime for those that have not seen it. "
Hilarious g, ja wohl mein perpetrator of that which is funny. Please respond with a message to dukeourl15@gmail .com since mein may violate community standards, so that I may reciprocate. Humor will see us though.
But this football has been fantastic this year and I am going with the Giants without a doubt. The Jets and Titans are putting on a great show, the Bears looking tough, it may be up to Big Ben for the Steelers, the Dolphins look the about the same.., where's all the football in California, the Steelers will kick but against the Chargers this Sunday, the Panthers are wild, but it will be the Giants in the end, you will see.
Throw your foreign lemon away..., :lemon:
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
chock-dee
Regards,
OW
I read some of the UAW propaganda. I guess the part that upsets me is the US has already lost 1.2 million jobs this year (that's million with an M), This doesn't include all the job layoffs for the month of November. DHL suspends all US operations and lays off over 9,000. Circuit City files bankruptcy. They aren't getting bailouts and these are Americans that are losing their jobs.
Pretty much the UAW needs to keep their mouths shut on this issue. Americans are losing their jobs and homes around the country. The last thing they want to hear is a union worker making $78/hour begging for the government to save their company. They are right that people in California don't understand Detroit. But the UAW needs a dose of reality and get out of their bubble in Detroit. It's 2008, no one is guaranteed a job anymore. the head of UAW should demand a meeting with Rick Wagoner and figure out a way to keep GM alive sans government bailout. It's in the workers best interest to keep GM alive. Right now, the votes are not there in Congress to pass a bailout and GM won't last until Jan. 20th. I'm not sure GM can live up to the conditions the lawmakers want to put on a potential bailout anyway.
First, congrats on the almost-hire, and continued good luck on finding the right position.
Second, do you know if the jobs bank is still in existence? Just curious.
These days, when 85% or so of the car loans are upside down (where one owes more than the fair market value) manufacturers are padding the MSRP. So it won't look as if they are financing the difference on a trade in. That might upset banks in the unlikely case of repossession. Also a big reason for GAP insurance. Zero down, employee/UAW pricing, and other sales gimmicks flood the used car market, as each sale more than likely results in another trade in being put on the market. Adding to that is the fact that the new car becomes a used car as soon as its driven off the lot. So we have seen a considerable amount of cars glutting the market, and price being the rationing mechanism, they lose value fast.
MSRP is adjusted by region too, as so are incentives, to move inventory. However, some fees are equalized, like destination. So MSRP should be suggested MSRP. I've been fascinated at the way Walmart/Sams adjust price across the nation as well as on a local/same city basis. Then too a cell phone family plan is $4 a month in Brazil (adjusted for dollar), Canada and Mexico pay far less for drugs, and many others. They don't want everyone to have one, just the majority of the population. One could coin this the law of maximizing returns.
When Benz purchased Chrysler, they were amazed at the lower UAW wages in comparison to those in Germany. However, the Benz CEO was being compensated far less than the Chrysler CEO. Yet Benz was more profitable and able to aquire Chrysler.
BMW is another example of a winner who pays far more than the UAW wages.
Wagoner has been running GM in NA for fourteen years. How long do you think he should get to make this work?
You should also be aware that those who got fire sale deals on the subprime failed banks, will be able to use their losses to offset their profits. They didn't even ask congress to approve that. Bush and company, just changed the tax laws to help their rich buddies. So the 700 billion will be more than 850 billion as a conservative estimate.
So whats a few billion more for the Big Three?
Section 382 of the tax code was created by Congress in 1986 to end what it considered an abuse of the tax system: companies sheltering their profits from taxation by acquiring shell companies whose only real value was the losses on their books. The firms would then use the acquired company's losses to offset their gains and avoid paying taxes.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/09/AR2008110902155_- - pf.html
you know lemko, you and I don't agree on hardly anything, but that is an outstanding post!
BMW makes great cars. If GM made great cars then perhaps the labor premium would be worth it. The market has spoken and guess what - UAW is not worth it!
Speak of which, their collective bargaining agreement (NFL) is due next year. Since Mr. Gene Upshaw isn't with us any more, they might need the UAW to bleed those owners, who bled the taxpayers for stadiums. In turn the owners could out source that to Japan or China.
It's sort of like McDonald's "mop manager" complaining about Starbucks register gal getting better wage and benefits. Of course she does - she works at place the "mop manager" may or may not be qualified to work, but ultimately she sells a product that until recently was THE PRODUCT. BTW, not even Sturbucks could take it - it is already shrinking, closing stores, etc. So far they're trying not to cut on that gal, but wait long enough and they will - if for some reason $4 latte stops being THE PRODUCT. And it seems it's going that way - just watch out the register gal.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I worked at Chrysler for 25 years. I wish I would have made anywhere close to that figure.
I believe it would be a mistake for the government to attempt to bail out the automotive sector without demanding concessions from labor that would essentially bring its costs in line with non-union ones. Some differences in the work rules could remain in place, so long as their economic impact is minor. This would be harsh for the auto industry workers, but anything less would be unfair to tax payers and workers in other industries. Also, anything less would ultimately fail since, in addition to manufacturing products that people choose to buy - a huge challenge, given current consumer preferences - the domestic auto industry must be cost competitive to survive.
I think it would be very difficult, but perhaps not impossible in the current environment, for the Obama administration to demand the concessions from organized labor that are essential for the long-term viability of the domestic auto makers, but without them I believe any financial help would be doomed to fail. One could argue that it would have been easier for a McCain administration to play hardball with the unions, since they didn't enjoy much union support. On the other hand, there's the "it took a Nixon to go to China in the '70s" argument. It says that, because Obama had strong union support, he is in a better position to extract concessions than McCain would have been. He would have to use all of his considerable political skills to obtain the necessary compromises, though, and that's after he's persuaded Nancy Pelosi and others to side with him. At this point we don't even know if President elect Obama has the desire and will to demand major concessions from the unions, in exchange for government help.
A major argument for throwing a lifeline to the auto sector is that its demise would increase unemployment. The degree of the increase is arguable, but more jobs would be retained, even with a shrunken domestic auto sector than without one. In addition, for a variety of reasons that are unique to this industry, including the long lead times required to design and introduce new products, the volatility of fuel prices plus the impact of the credit crisis, a good case can be made that the perfect storm has impacted autos more severely than other industries.
Should Washington demand that the auto makers be forced to only produce green cars, as a condition for receiving aid? Absolutely not! Detroit has to produce cars that consumers want to buy, and despite a series of bad calls in the past, auto industry managers are more in tune with consumer needs and desires than politicians are. In addition to being bad strategy, it would be even a worse precedent to permit Washington to dictate auto design, beyond what it already does with safety, emissions and fuel economy standards.
First, management should be strongly encouraged, if not required, to reduce its compensation until the companies' viability is restored. For this effort to succeed, it's important that management lead by example, and there should be shared sacrifice.
Second, the demand for domestic vehicles needs to be stimulated. I would favor an appeal to patriotism in this time of need. To that end, the industry should mount a strong marketing campaign to encourage consumers to consider a domestic brand before they buy their next vehicle. It could be useful for the industry to appoint one or more respected, charismatic spokesperson to make its case with consumers.
No, unfortunately, I think that corporate morality has changed since 1980. I think that the bums who run the companies and the unions both will grab what they can for themselves and say to hell with everybody else. Short term thinking with no honor. Sad.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
That $75 per hour includes paid vacation, paid holidays, paid sick time, paid health care, pensions, and other paid items. The hourly wage included in the pay check is more on the order of $28-$30+ per hour. But all the " Extra" compensation adds up fast.
The Toyota workers "PAY" is more on the order of $18-$20 per hour plus bennefits. Less bennefits than the UAW workers. Still that is more than the guy at another type manufacturing facility in the same area earns.
>"Why would GM agree to a pay scale that is that ridiculous? "
When times were good and strikes were threats, management caved in so that manufacturing will continue. Then when times are not good, they have to live with those decisions. Or maybe, we the tax payers do. :sick:
That's where I have a problem "LOANING" or GIVING Billions of dollars to them unless they have a serious change in management, and in union concessions. The money will be gone in a heartbeat. How would they pay it back???
Isn't that like "LOANING" money to someone that has too much debt to pay their mortgage. Unless they have a major life style change, they will be back in the same boat as soon as the "loan" is used up.
The "Golden Egg" Laying Goose has been strangled to a point that it is gasping it's last breaths. Unless those doing the strangling stop, and those that allow it to happen are dealt with, the goose will die.
UAW workers may say,"Well, I'm not going to work for $20 per hour and lose some sick days and some days off. I'm not going to contribute to my healthcare. I don't think slackers should loose their jobs. Obama is going to look out for us"
Yeah right!
Kip
You did. That includes cost of pension and healthcare projections far into the future till your and your dependents' deaths, and everything else, probably even the cost of toilet paper used while working in the plant.
But if we include the costs of all details for management and executive pay plans a parachutes they probably become even more obscene than the cost of concessions at the LOS Colt's home stadium in Indy. $5.50 for drink, $12 for large popcorn, etc.
The real solution is government mandates for executive pay to equal Japanese ratios, send back the foreign car companies building here, and guarantee the auto workers jobs at those pay rates sans any benefits--the newly elected leader will provide all healthcare and pension plans. Everyone will be happy.
OTOH oddly many folk want the government to solve all problems, and to me it looks like the ones who were there 10 years ago causing the financial problems now in return for money to their campaigns and themselves are the ones talking loudly about fixing the problem they caused. Somehow "government fixing problems" is an oxymoron in my mind.
Government isn't going to "fix" the problem caused by allowing unequal competition through the decades in the auto industry.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Regards,
OW
The automakers in Germany are making wage cuts. They are also setting up plants in the old Soviet Bloc countries. And they are all building vehicles in the USA and making money. Germany has an unemployment rate somewhere around 10%.
A day earlier, Volkswagen said it would build a new sport utility vehicle at its main plant in Wolfsburg rather than in Portugal, but only after extracting a 20 percent wage reduction from its workers.
Germany's overpaid autoworkers
Let's see? 20% off of the GM wage package would be somewhere around $58 per hour. Better cut the labor costs by 30% at GM. Then after they pay their debts off they can think about giving the labor and management a raise.
Even with the worst case scenario of 3 million jobs lost if the Big 3 goes belly up, we would not have as high unemployment as Germany and most of the EU. That would put our unemployment in the 8.5% range. That is well below the early 1980s when we were close to 10% unemployment. Do you see a pattern?
I agree with your point. Saturn was to be the "different kind of car company" and they experimented with jobs for life/Asian mantra. Then the Cadillac Catera an Opel/Germen design, which was re-engineered as the CTS (Catera Touring Sedan) and the jury is still out on that. Seems to me that Americans as a whole aren't into the euro mentality. Except in the high end such as BMW/BENZ. Then even so most of the Europeans keep theirs for longer periods (ten to twenty years) and five years is an eon here in America. Do folks want high end stuff or something for the masses which has a shorter lifespan?
Then we also have seen the BMW/BENZ build a lower end to compete with the Toyota/Lexus- Honda/Acura- Nissan/Infinity once they intruded into their traditional high end markets. I feel the more competition the better for the consumer. That being said, I also feel that poor economic times brings out scape goating. Its no more the UAW whom is responsible for the Big Three's woes, than its the UAW whom has any responsibility for the sub prime mess. In the 90s when GM was making billions, they should have put some away for that rainy day which is here.
That is exactly right. Where is that money, would be my question? Same yahoo running the show now as then. Did they piss it all away on failed projects & Fiat? Did Wagoner stash billions in off shore accounts like so many other elitists in this country? Where is the money? We need to get the CIA to start harassing these countries like Switzerland that hide ill gotten gains. Tell US where the money is or you will be invaded. I would not mess around with them. Don't allow any country to hide assets. If the Cayman's are hiding money, target them as terrorists.
That still does not address one of the core issues surrounding the Big 3 demise. They are Paying much higher wages and giving retirees much higher benefits than the competition. That just cannot continue if GM and Ford are to survive.
"During the 1990s General Motors' financial fortunes turned around and enabled the company to easily afford a $2 annual dividend. The $2 per share dividend was both affordable and justified in the 1990s but isn't now and hasn't been for several years." link.
If you own stock in a dividend company, you expect to receive you quarterly payments. And that's another reason why companies live quarter to quarter.
When Microsoft sat on all its billions, the shareholders demanded that they payout some of that surplus. And Microsoft did.
GM did set aside lots of dough for reserves, otherwise they'd already be gone by now. They burned up some of it during the Delphi strike. link
The numbers tell the story. In the United States the unemployment rate is holding at about 6.5 percent, despite a booming economic recovery, while in Canada and Western Europe, it averages around 11 percent, with Spain topping the list at 23 percent.
These figures do not take into account the large numbers of workers who are soon to be laid off, as the European Union begins to go through some of the cost-cutting that American industries have already endured.
Japan is at a comfortable unemployment level of 2.9 percent. But that does not include many workers who are kept in make-work jobs as part of Japan's lifetime employment policies.
The problem looks somewhat different from a wage perspective. According to the Labor Department, total compensation -- wages, health benefits, vacations -- for the typical American manufacturing worker has declined slightly or remained flat since the mid-1970's, while in Europe and Japan it has increased by 40 percent. Minimum wage levels tend to be higher in Europe, with cost-of-living increases and four-week annual vacations virtually guaranteed. Average manufacturing compensation in Germany is $26 an hour. In America, it is $16.
What the Labor Department calls low-wage noncollege-educated workers and workers from disadvantaged backgrounds have suffered even more in the United States. In the 1980's, their wages fell 15 to 20 percent when adjusted for inflation, while in Europe and Japan these wages rose about 15 to 20 percent.
But on the flip side, between 1973 and 1991, the United States economy created more than 35 million jobs. In the same period, the European Community generated only eight million new jobs, even though it has about one-third more people.
In large part, this is because of Europe's relatively comfortable social safety nets, which have left many workers preferring to stay on welfare rather than take the sort of low-paying jobs accepted by many workers in the United States. In most of the European Union, an unemployed worker can receive close to $1,000 a month indefinitely. In addition, Europe's highly regulated job markets, where it is very difficult to dismiss workers, have left employers wary of creating jobs. The Potential Lessons.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C03E7D8133DF937A25750C0A96295826- 0&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all
I'm of the opinion that labor is not responsible for mis management. American Airlines employees were never rewarded for concession, however, executives made no concessions and reaped rewards. The UAW represents the collective bargaining unit and has little to do with running the business. They have no voice in management and its responsibility to shareholder value.
Again, no one held a gun to managements head and or twisted their arms when they signed the labor agreements. Both parties leave the table feeling that they received something of value and or are better off with their agreement. Its like those who sign a mortgage or car note and have buyers remorse about 10 payments into the agreement. The shareholders are the risk takers and maybe they should be asked to make concessions. If anything management is doing a disservice and or failing to properly represent the shareholders. Contracts should be viewed as sacred covenants and honored. It is both unethical and illegal to go back on one word/agreement. Maybe thats what wrong with society today, till death do you part is meaningless and children are given a poor example by their parents/mentors.
I like that your trying to come up with solutions. In light of the whole thing being a socialist program to benefit capitalist. Its UN American and against core principals of this nation. Its as if the govt is going to buy shares in these industries and later be forced into the operations of what were once privately owned businesses because of the failures of capitalism. I offer no solutions. Just the fact that the taxes/bailouts will be paid by these same auto workers in part and therefore should make any other concessions.
They also forgot to mention. German income tax is about 50% on that $26 per hour average. Our CA unemployment is about $450 per week last I checked. Depending on your wages prior to losing your job. That can go on for a year.
In some respects we do much better than the Europe. Others they are by far superior. My observations are that since they do pay higher taxes, they tend to take better care of things as to make them last longer. We on the other hand are a throw away society. They tend to make a big deal about every meal and aren't addicted to less than fresh food. I guess each person would have to make that call about which society is better. There is no argument that Germany is one of the most socialist country in the world and many of those countries overseas have govt sticking their noses into private business matters or things which we perceive to be beyond the role of govt.
Our CA unemployment is about $450 per week last I checked. Depending on your wages prior to losing your job. That can go on for a year.
I was under the assumption that unemployment was 26 weeks and congress would extend it 13 or so weeks, depending on the economy. Also that there was a max, regardless of your wages, is taxable unearned income, and went back to employment status 4 quarters ago (a year prior to seperation from employment).
I would say they have, seeing their stock go down to about 10 cents on the dollar over the last year. Bankruptcy would probably send it to Zero.
Most Union Contracts are for 3 years. That is not until death do us part. I just don't see GM hanging on another 2 years. GM also has the option of locking the gates and hiring all those new 12 million citizens Obama will be swearing in on the 21st of January. Voila' instant cheap labor. That should make you happy. They can move into all the empty homes the UAW workers leave behind. Five families per house. Pay minimum wage and limited benefits.
I do agree that some of the things offered by government programs seem nice to fall back on. Every time you give government a place in your life you give up something in return. It is a form of enslavement. It was never more brought to the forefront than during hurricane Katrina. Those people were totally lost without government intervention. They had lost all motivation to survive on their own.
Be glad we live on the coasts if that happens, cuz there'll be riots for sure.
UAW or no UAW, GM has problems which have nothing to do with labor issues. All the auto makers are having hard times and this has more to do with economic conditions. However, if the 12 million were to be hired for arguments sake. How many of them would be able to afford GM cars and trucks? How many of those who make sneakers are able to buy a pair of those sneakers?
This is the greatest middle class borne of unions in the history of the world. Which in turn has made America the greatest consumer nation in the history of the planet and the envy of every other nation. Certainly your not suggesting that we race to the bottom?
http://www.uaw.org/contracts/07/gm/gm11.php
First, congrats on the almost-hire, and continued good luck on finding the right position.
Thanks.....My interview went very well for the Saturn Job and I'm optomistic enough to believe I will be hired. I'm suppose to call my would be boss next tuesday. I feel my experience and knowledge will be a asset to the dealership and I like the atmosphere !!!
I also want to remind everyone those UAW workers average pay with benefits is much closer to Toyota (within' a couple of dollars) per hour than before. The pay per hour was never $78 an/hr. It was somewhere between $60-65 an hour as Steve Miller, of Delphi was correct in saying !!! The Toyota, workers are 401K only and the only reason why it cost GM, so much money was because they (GM) were behind on their pension fund obligations but made up for it by successfully risking money in the stock-market and pulling out before the collapse. The pension obligations aren't the problem but the VEBA, they agreed too is....I understand some of ya'll are talking about Circuit City, etc but those folks were selling mostly stuff made out of the country and their employees don't make much money to begin with. As the UAW, said they can reward the tax payers by closing plants in Mexico, and building or keeping open american ones. Sure the employees aren't going to make much money but hey they are $14-16 an/hr. jobs and the money will stay here in the U.S.
-Rocky
Over the past few years the Big 3 have been making changes including cutbacks, remodeling, restructuring, I am not sure if general motors broke even with fiat, but is leaving europe. Maybe there was an 'typo' or 3 in the instructions somewhere, and they forgot about the $35 billion end of year tax or something like that.
My GM stock went down to too low so i sold. It's no where near what it was last year, i don't know if it will go up if i start buying so i think i will wait a while.
I think the Big 3 make very good products, especially with those dependable Police cars and other government vehicles, Beaufort(from 'walking tall') i think he drove a hemi.
no, i never touch that stuff.
speaking of wages, could you compare a baseball player's income to that of an Autoworker
this site shows a different picture:
link title <--- police car
is this something Ronald Reagan meant when he said the government is the problem :surprise:
Back to salaries:
"The current veteran UAW member at GM today has an average base wage of $28.12 an hour, but the cost of benefits, including pension and future retiree health care costs, nearly triples the cost to GM to $78.21, according to the Center for Automotive Research.
By comparison, new hires will be paid between $14 and $16.23 an hour. And even as they start to accumulate raises tied to seniority, the far less lucrative benefit package will limit GM's cost for those employees to $25.65 an hour."
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