What companies have CUT retiree healthcare and checks
A neighbor of a close friend had his pension cut and healthcare costs were increased. I don't know if it's a national company from which he retired or not. I'll ask our friend when I see her next. She had him paint her home and do some interior paint and light remodeling work because she felt sorry for him.
A parent in a group my son was in kept finding the national company for which he worked kept changing the promise for healthcare for retirees. He hadn't retired yet but what I understood is that the company kept paying less and less. He also kept fighting the changing amount of retirement if he did retire. I don't see him often to ask how it turned out.
In GM's case the retirees need to take a reduction to help keep the company going. Otherwise..., no sympathy.
all I'm saying is a prudent UAW worker should be thinking about re-training.Now.
Maybe start taking some action toward re-training. Your "facts" don't hide the fact that you avoid: not enough people want GM, Ford and Chrysler products. Should the U.S. be involved in throwing hard-earned tax monies away?
Poor planning and management has equalled big-time trouble and throwing a very expensive Band-Aid at this while a lot of peope in all trades and industries are also losing their jobs isn't making good common sense to me.
My father has a modest pension nothing like gagrice, gets or wages gagrice, made
Not sure what you mean by modest. I can tell you after 37 years in the Teamsters my retirement is not even close to the guys in the IBEW or Operating Engineers. Plus I did not get any health care or dental. That would have equaled about $950 per month. So if your dad gets Health care he is ahead of me there. Then when you take into consideration the fact that I was remote the last 25 years that should be worth something. I would imagine your dad was home most nights. Where I was in a 10 X10 cubicle for half the nights of those 25 years. Again anyone wanting to go remote there are plenty of jobs for those with skills. One of my friends retired at 57 or 6 years younger than I did with twice the monthly pension I get. He was a mechanic on the pipeline and put in a lot of 12 week shifts 12-16 hours per day.
Is your dad old enough to retire? If not he should be looking for a job to supplement his pension until SS kicks in.
Computers? Maybe if he wants to work in Bangladore.
Health Care? Good call, but if everybody is unemployed, underemployed, or uninsured, how is he going to get paid?
Trades? All the tradesmen are having a tough time due to the housing crunch. Heck, even the illegal immigrants who did such work are going back over the border.
Law Enforcement and Prisons would be a good choice, but if the tax base is decimated, who's going to pay for all those police and correctional officers?
My father is young enough to work still if he had too. Will be 52 in a few months. He is thinking about becoming a Toyota Embroidery Machine Technician because he knows how to work on them better than the guys who are certified. He also is looking into getting a certificate to do peoples taxes for another partial income thus he has some things to fall back on in a crunch !!!
I assume most of ya'll seen the video I posted. If the Big 3 fail this country is done !!! What's good for Big 3 is good for America. If we can give a bunch of money to sleazy Wallstreet executives to spend on spa resorts or on a worthless war in Iraq, that had nothing to do with 9/11 we can sure in the hell bailout the Big 3. It's a loan and once we fix trade and currency manipulation GM, like many struggling domestic manufacturers will be better off. I would love nothing better than to not only see General Motors, build the future green vehicles but also get involved in building other forms of transportation i.e. bullet trains, jet airplanes, etc..... If the tax payers want to guarantee GM, success give them contracts to build some of these green technologies here in the U.S. We have plenty of nice but empty facilities here in Michigan. Delphi Coopersville, MI. plant comes to mind as a place that is already wired for big time manufacturing yet it still remains a empty plant last time I knew. :sick:
Maybe start taking some action toward re-training. Your "facts" don't hide the fact that you avoid: not enough people want GM, Ford and Chrysler products.
Well that's not true either because GM, still sells by quite a large margin more automobiles than Toyota, here in the U.S. last time I checked !!!
Should the U.S. be involved in throwing hard-earned tax monies away?
Invest $25 billion now or lose $160 Billion in 3 years thus the choice is yours !!!
Poor planning and management has equalled big-time trouble and throwing a very expensive Band-Aid at this while a lot of peope in all trades and industries are also losing their jobs isn't making good common sense to me.
I would throw more than $25 billion at the problem. I would give the Big 3 a $100 Billion Dollars and with that money with government oversight I would award them contracts to build locomotives, military equipment, etc.....
My FIL gets his pension from the PBGC and he gets about 60% of his original pension. There is a formula that I believe considers age, length of employment, and pension amount. My FIL was around 53 when LTV went BK and he had around 31 years of service.
Seems the Democrats do not want to use the money allocated in the Energy bill to bail out the Big 3. Bush has said he did not want to spend all the money in the bailout. He will leave over half for Obama to decide. Obama makes the decision which voters he will pay back.
GM folding will be forgotten in a year. Except for the suckers with their cars that were supposed to be covered by warranty. NO ONE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WOULD BUY A GM VEHICLE NOW. Ford will probably come out stronger as will Toyota and the other transplants.
Executive Salaries, Bonuses, Stock Options, and Other Compensation
Those salaries and bonuses are even more reason to let GM DIE. Wagoner sees no reason to change the top tier managers. Gettlefinger sees no reason for the UAW to give concessions. GM cannot make it without outside cash to pay these high costs. Let them go. And I do not believe for one second that GM is that important to the US economy. Barely a blip on the GDP. Not even one half of one percent. You are living in the past as is most of the UAW members. You watch too much worthless TV. It is in Obama's court now. Bush handed it over to him. He does not want to deal with that bunch of losers in the 110th Congress.
The Big 3 account for 4% GDP so get your facts straight before you rant about how little the automobile industry matters to this country. If the Big 3 dies so will the rest of the country....Those are the facts !!! :sick:
Also what do you want the UAW, to give up in concessions ??? I'm sure any of them would be willing to switch retirement packages with you !!! My uncles Teamster pension fund looks like a goldmine compared to my fathers and just like yours it doesn't go down when he reaches social security. My father's does probably something else you weren't aware of !!!!
I wished Fintail, was around to keep you in check !!! :P
rockford I have seen so many dull looking huge pick-em-up trucks from GM right now and so few affordable green products that I am of the mindset that GM can just fall in to a huge Midwest protoplasm omeba of Detroit Piston muck. The Silverado you see to the right in the ad has slowed us all down for long enough. That gravytrain has sailed.
Your GDP numbers are inflated because they're made by a UAW member, aren't they?
The bailout is dead. I agree with gagrice on this one. Dead. Done. Cya-Nara. Cya-woudn't want to have ever been ya. Over. And out.
rockylee...is it true that Chev really wants $46,995 for the 2010 Chevy Volt? Please tell me that's an Internet misnomer, man. :sick:
i disagree with you iluvmysephia1, people have told me that they like their truck.., some people need a truck.., some just have a truck but don't really need it.., the extra torque in a truck is necessary for a number of occassions.., and the Big 3 are moving forward, there are still plans in the making for green with the Big 3..., The foreigners dont' have to build the big trucks for us(or any of them), the fact is we don't need the foreigners building any of them for us.., free trade is not necessarily fair trade, The chinese surplus is over $259 billion and only growing.., With the banks getting bailed out(and that number is well past a few $$$trillion, some say getting close to $9trillion or more) the Big 3 should get a $100 billion rescue loan that gets paid back with interest.., if you are into green that bad(and i am not saying it is bad) then you should try puting more green into the average homes that create pollution also.., okay, if you like cars more then maybe you should start working on the 'Car Tires' and i have just the link for you --> link title and let the foreigners build cameras or maybe you can try selling the foreigners to the u.s. military.
"In GM's case the retirees need to take a reduction to help keep the company going. Otherwise..., no sympathy."
What I cannot believe is how even here, after it has been repeated and repeated, that we do not know the real facts. How in the heck can we expect the rest of the country to know????
ALL employees of GM have lost their retiree health care. ALL
Salarieds pay 100%. UAW retirees are getting something from their own UAW accounts. GM will not be on the hook.
Caveat: GM has agreed to make a multi billion payment into some UAW fund to start the fund.
Rocky, the US is not done if we lose the big 3. We will go into a depression that will probably last 5-10 years but we will come out of it. But we will come out at a bit lower on the totem pole compared to some of the other countries. In the future we will have nothing to export because all the other countries will be able to do everything we do cheaper and therefore our wages will drop to be even with theirs. Sorry no more cheap china stuff. Heck we may be sending the same stuff back on ebay!
Silly site. The author blames "interlocking ties" for the failure of American cars to sell in the Japanese market. The real reason was Detroit's refusal to build cars suitable for Japan's left-hand traffic. (Would you buy a car with the steering wheel on the wrong side?)
And why does he give the Germans a pass? The Japanese may sell more units, but the top end of the market, which the Germans have dominated for decades, accounts for a huge chunk of the profits. As far as its bottom line is concerned, GM would be in much better shape if it sold fewer Chevies & more Caddies. Luxury is where the money is.
But my main gripe with these "Buy American" guys is that they don't understand this basic fact: you don't have to wave the flag to get most of us to buy American if you're building exciting cars.
...don't have an auto industry of their own. Shoot even FRANCE has it's own auto industry and own Nissan to boot! Don't give me the UK as an example. They are a huge has-been nation compared to what they once were. "The sun never sets on British soil!" Feh! Looks like "Great" Britain has been experiencing a solar eclipse for almost 40 years.
Yeah, we'll go into a deep depression if the Big Three collapse and we'll come out of it in about 5-10 years. Of course, will any of us be here when it ends? I so, won't we be living a much diminished lifestyle?
Import lovers should really fear a collapse of the Big Three if they love their cars so much. Let me give you this scenario.
"Hey, Bill! How's your new 2016 Toyota Camry? I love it, Joe, but I can't seem to keep a decent paint job on it. Every morning I wake up to see some joker keyed it or spraypainted profanity on it! Yeah, I'm having trouble with my 2014 Honda Accord. I just can't keep tires on it because some idiots keep slashing the sidewalls. Hey, there's Al! Al, we've been talking cars. How's your 2015 Nissan Altima? Fine, except I can't seem to keep glass in it with all these unemployed auto workers roaming the streets. Just yesterday, I was stopped at a light and these two guys in tattered clothes threw a cinderblock through my windshield. Geeze, why doesn't somebody call the cops? What cops? The city laid off half the force 'cause there's no tax funds for them. I hear there's going to be more lay-offs..."
Instead of taking American car buyers to task for not buying domestics, why aren't you focusing your wrath on Big Three management for failing to design & build cars that Americans want to buy? Isn't the customer always right? I certainly think so.
If I don't want to buy your product, it's your fault -- not mine. Don't try to bully me into buying by threatening to brick my windshield. Instead, go to work figuring out exactly what I want & offer it to me at a price that I'm willing to pay.
I'll say it again: the customer is always right.
(Anyway, where I live, I'm more likely to be mugged by a laid-off Lehman Bros. managing director than by an unemployed auto worker.)
It's worth noting that back in the late 70s & early 80s, the British government spent billions trying to rescue British Leyland, which had been the UK's largest car manufacturer. But BL went under anyway.
"As has been said many times as the domestic auto industry continues its frenetic unraveling, there's plenty of blame to go around, and a portion of it lies with the unions. The United Auto Workers has rarely been out of the conversation of what's ruined Detroit Inc., but arguments centered on the notion that fat, uncompetitive unionized labor is the root cause of Detroit's ills are specious - and little more than an excuse for some good-old-fashioned union-bashing."
Good article, Steve. Although I'm not a big fan of unions, I don't blame the UAW for the current mess. At one time, the Big Three knew how to build cars that excited buyers. Then they stumbled & stopped doing that, so buyers went elsewhere. That's not the fault of the UAW.
Instead of taking American car buyers to task for not buying domestics, why aren't you focusing your wrath on Big Three management for failing to design & build cars that Americans want to buy?
What do you mean "cars Americans want to buy?" I'm an American and I consistently buy American cars. The kinds of cars Toyota and Honda build are the type I don't want to buy - ugly, weird, and dull.
Not ALL of the Big Three are going to collapse simultaneously. These companies are in very different situations, even though the lazy media prefers to lump them together.
Ford has the money to make a go of it until it brings new product - Fiesta, all-new Focus, restyled Taurus - to market within the next 18 or so months. The company has reduced production capacity to bring it in line with demand, and sold Jaguar, Land Rover and Aston-Martin, all of where were cash drains and distracting management from focusing on the core brands - Ford and Lincoln. Quality is on the upswing, too.
General Motors is in dire condition. But a restructured GM is still a viable enterprise. Only problem is that a restructured GM would be a much smaller company, sized to serve about 15-18 percent of the market.
The best solution would cause the buy-American crowd and Lou Dobbs to have a stroke. But if the government really wants to save GM, it should turn it over to a foreign company - preferably Toyota - and give said company carte blanche to make the changes necessary to right the ship.
GM's current management has a mixed record at best. The quality is still uneven; the brands are still a mess, with too much badge engineering and overlap; it changes nameplates too often; and there isn't anything on the horizon that will really increase market share. The Volt is not going to be a money-maker, and the Cruze doesn't look any more exciting than the Cobalt. The Camaro is sharp, but one retro-styled pony car isn't going to save GM.
The brutal truth is that Toyota has done a much better job of meeting the needs and desires of American consumers (check the sales figures and market share trends); its quality is still, as whole, superior to GM's quality; its marketing is far superior; and its brands have essentially displaced comparable GM brands in the hearts and minds of customers. Toyota is the new Chevrolet, while Lexus has far more prestige than Cadillac among the younger, more affluent customers who will matter in the coming years.
With a restructured GM, Pontiac, Saturn, Hummer and Saab would go away. Buick and GMC would be combined into one division - call it LaSalle - and share platforms with Chevrolet at the lower end (although no economy Buicks, or LaSalles, please) and Cadillac at the near-luxury end. Chevrolet and Cadillac would be GM's big guns.
The Jobs Bank would go away, and UAW members would accept work rules the same as those at the transplant operations. If the government is going to inject any money into GM, use it to fund the UAW VEBA. Most of upper management needs to go, too. Keep Bob Lutz for continuity.
If GM needs anything, it is culture change. The world no longer revolves around GM, but I get the impression that GM management and the UAW haven't quite figured this out yet. Second, "good enough" isn't good enough anymore.
But the last thing we, the taxpayers, need is for GM to receive aid that only postpones the inevitable, necessary restructuring.
If we give GM money now - the way GM and the UAW want us to do it - prepare GM to beg for another cash infusion in about 6-12 months.
As for Chrysler - it's toast. Cerberus has suspended new vehicle development, leaving the company basically dead. At this point, the best thing that could happen is that foreign companies buy up the remaining valuable parts of Chrysler - Jeep, the minivans, the Dodge Ram and maybe the LX cars. The rest is worthless.
And the collapse of one of these companies will not bring about the next Great Depression. If Chrysler collapses, for example, Ford will pick up the slack, especially in rural areas. There will still be a vibrant domestic automobile industry. People seem to miss that Honda, Toyota, Nissan and Hyundai are expanding their presence here, building vehicles that were designed HERE with American tastes in mind. Their footprint in American will only increase.
And the collapse of one of the Big Three will have very little effect on areas outside of their operations. There won't be marauding bands of unemployed auto workers in southcentral Pennsylvania if GM or Chrysler collapses. Nor will there be Unemployed Auto Workers Gone Wild in San Francisco, Dallas, Orlando, Seattle, Boston, etc. Sorry, but the Big Three aren't that big anymore. It's not 1965 anymore...and let's not quote hysterical press releases from biased, industry-funded sources to "prove" otherwise.
I refuse to support any politician who's econimic agenda is more FREE TRADE !!! Why should these union folks be asked to give up their modest pension and health benefits ??? Why don't you ask your elected leaders to address these issues ??? I know one of your elected leaders in Ohio, Dennis Kucinich is very anti NAFTA, GATT, WTO
Heard that today's New York Times is recommending that Congress should approve the Bush proposed Treaty with Columbia. Times being the bible of the liberals and Democrats, will Congress now obey the Times and approve the Treaty? Remember that U.S. organized labor has up to this time opposed this Treaty and has Pelosi/Reid in their pocket.
Before I would bailout UAW members and their companies, how about the other Americans out of work.
Through the decades, workers in the building trades have always had to cope with recessions on their own. Some of these are carpenters, drywallers, roofers, heavy equipment operators, etc. Mostly they are resilient and adaptable. UAW workers have been shielded from reality by Big 3 management capitulation to ridiculous union demands.
I'm an American and I consistently buy American cars.
Apparently, you don't have much company.
When I got my driver's license back in the 60s, GM's share of the U.S. auto market was in the neighborhood of 55%. So big & so successful was the company that management's biggest worry was that the government would step in & break it up. (It's widely believed that the Justice Department was prepared to move if GM's market share had reached 60%.)
Today, GM's share is less than 20%, which means that an awful lot of Americans have gone elsewhere. The company has managed to squander what was the most profitable franchise in automotive history. And now we're expected to bail it out?
Today, GM's share is less than 20%, which means that an awful lot of Americans have gone elsewhere.
Yeah, and I know exactly where I'd tell them all to go. Hopefully there is some kind of cosmic justice and they will all soon find themselves unemployed or underemployed and all their beloved imports are towed away to the repossessor's lot or the scrap yard.
Blaming the customer is exactly what got GM into this pickle in the first place. GM management is to blame for this, although the UAW has been happy to help the process along.
GM has had 30+ years to respond to the challenge posed by Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai, BMW and Mercedes. For the most part, it has either failed miserably or succeeded only by avoiding direct confrontation (abandoning cars to focus on trucks and SUVs).
GM had the home team advantage, and it squandered it. When I read DeLorean's book, On a Clear Day, You Can See General Motors, I was shocked at how relevant it remains after 30 years. GM has been poorly managed for too long, and top management has focused on just about everything BUT making top-notch cars. It has survived on sheer size, the truck market and a dwindling customer base that refuses to consider vehicles from other manufacturers.
That is not the fault of people who bought something else.
What do you mean "cars Americans want to buy?" I'm an American and I consistently buy American cars. The kinds of cars Toyota and Honda build are the type I don't want to buy - ugly, weird, and dull.
What do you call the ongoing loss of market share of the Big 3 to the foreign brands? Every American exercises his/her free will to buy the vehicle that is best value to them and meets or exceeds their needs/expectations. Obviously, the foreign brands have been doing a better job than the Big 3 in this regard.
Help me understand your business model. What you're suggesting is this: when customers won't buy what you're trying to sell, don't change your product or how you market it. Instead, just blame (and, if possible, punish) the customers.
But if the government really wants to save GM, it should turn it over to a foreign company - preferably Toyota - and give said company carte blanche to make the changes necessary to right the ship.
Would that need a chapter 11? Have to imagine that the corporate culture of a Toyota, Honda or Nissan is very different from GM. The GM workforce, without a union, and first level supervision maybe could be trained into that culture. Top and middle management would have to be replaced similar to a new U.S. President's administration such as what Obama and Emanuel are now doing. Obama is bringing in his people, but of course retaining apolitical career government employees and grunts.
Is there any way that elements of top/middle management at Toyota, Honda and Nissan could be induced to join a Phoenix GM? What a challenge. This would be like a head coach of a Super Bowl Team leaving it and taking over the worst team in the NFL with aspiration to build it into a Super Bowl contender.
What the heck do you think they've been trying to do? What about the Malibu/Aura? What about the totally awesome new CTS? What about the Enclave, not to mention the beautiful Lucerne. I believe the Silverado is easily the nicest truck on the market.
this is simply a supply and demand production thing here. Most of us middle-aged population here in the States feel like The General has been dead and dereft of creativity for about 40 years.
We don't feel the Big Guy has our best interests at heart by any stretch. Product has been tolerable but doesn't light our fire.
I say no to a bailout for the States. Maybe SAIC of China(their Chinese build partner)can purchase bits and pieces of GM, including some experts who don't mind moving to China, and work to build for the burgeoning car-buying public there.
And that vehicle is either a Buick or a Cadillac for me!
Well, that works for you and others who choose these brands. But, you cannot escape statistics that GM market share is declining. GM has needed to stabilize or increase its share by having its brands appeal to more and more buyers, but that has not happened.
GM did not have competitive models to Lexus, Acura and Infiniti when these were introduced in late 80's and never was able to catch them. If GM were great back then, perhaps Lexus, Acura and Inifiniti would have withered and died for lack of sales early on.
Finally, the 2008 CTS has been acclaimed as near/equal to its foreign brand competitors. Maybe 22 years late. I presume that UAW build CTS, but it was top GM management that finally got it right and hopefully not to late for Cadillac's fate.
I dunno. I bought a 1989 Cadillac Brougham back then and still have it. I have no intention of getting rid of it. I'm extremely happy with my 2007 Cadillac DTS Performance. Heck, it almost seems too nice to drive around here.
Only Lexus seems to have been consistent and, to be brutally honest, the only really decent car they have is the LS460. Everything else is just a "Toyota Deluxe." Do they still make that silly and pointless LS460h?
Infiniti had a recent resurgeance, but it wasn't too long ago it was an also-ran with a slow-selling Q45. Heck, if I wanted to stand apart from everybody, a Q would've been perfect. You saw maybe one for every 100 Lexus LS.
Acura? Well, the RL would be nice if they put a V-8 in it and priced it at least $10K-$15K less. They made a major blunder letting the cartoonist for Pokemon design the latest TL.
Today, GM's share is less than 20%, which means that an awful lot of Americans have gone elsewhere.
GM was the largest corporation in the World for many years. It has squandered that wealth. It is now something like 10th largest and the biggest loser. It is less than half the sales of WalMart. Only about 10% of the workforce that WalMart has. Yet rocky and friends have no problem trying to organize Walmart with the possible consequence of pushing them into bankruptcy.
If GM goes under Ford and Chrysler will pick up much of the sales and be stronger. I miss Studebaker more than I will Buick. I owned two Studebaker cars and the best PU my dad ever owned was a Stude. No subsidies were offered to keep Studebaker and Packard alive. Same should go for GM. It will add less to the unemployment than was added last month. The dealers that are not already bankrupt will be done from lack of sales by january. Those lost jobs are just as important as the UAW jobs.
Well, maybe if the alternatives were awesome cars like Packards and Hudson Hornets instead of dull, tedious, anonymous, bland, nothing entities like Toyota and Honda, I wouldn't be so passionate about the impending doom of a cherished icon like Buick. I would mourn Buick's passing more than facing the prospect of my own death. Forced to live in a world with no choice but Ford and Camcords is a zombie's existence at best. I love my GM cars with the white-hot passion of a thousand suns! They are almost my religion.
I'm not a truck/SUV guy. Don't need one, won't buy one - either foreign or domestic. So the Silverado & the Enclave don't scratch my itch.
I'd seriously consider the Malibu & Aura if I were shopping for a family sedan. But why did we have to wait until practically yesterday for GM to produce compelling alternatives to the Accord & Camry? I've rented the previous generation Malibu & it's nothing I'd want in my garage.
I've said before that the latest CTS is gorgeous & that I'll test-drive one when I'm shopping for a replacement for my BMW.
Here's GM's problem as I see it. Once upon a time, if you asked me to list my 10 favorite cars, 7 or 8 of them would have been GM offerings. (The rest would have been English sports cars.)
Today, there would be 1 GM car on that list: the CTS. Most of the rest would be Germans.
Somewhere along the way, GM lost me because of decisions that GM made - or didn't make.
General Wesley Clark, New York Times: “What’s good for GM is good for the Army” “[W]e must act: aiding the American automobile industry is not only an economic imperative, but also a national security imperative “[A]s Detroit moves to plug-in hybrids and electric-drive technology automakers are developing innovative electric motors, many with permanent magnet technology, that will have immediate military use. And only the auto industry, with its vast purchasing power, is able to establish a domestic advanced battery industry. Likewise, domestic fuel cell production — which will undoubtedly have many critical military applications — depends on a vibrant car industry.” New York Times, Nov. 16, 2008
The real General has spoken iluvmysephia1
~Those of your against the Big 3 are under some kind of hypnosis~ GM and the Big 3 under normal conditions pays dividends.., sponsors more.., contributes more.., pays more taxes and bails out more than any other.., and yes the Big 3 would bailout the government if needed - All positive - so it pays to help the Big 3
What the heck do you think they've been trying to do? What about the Malibu/Aura? What about the totally awesome new CTS? What about the Enclave, not to mention the beautiful Lucerne. I believe the Silverado is easily the nicest truck on the market.
The Malibu and Aura actually have potential, but unfortunately they're late in coming, have yet to prove themselves long-term, and let's face it, people aren't going to come back to GM overnight. It's taken GM decades to lose their customer base, so it's going to take more than just one or two model years for them to get any semblance of it back.
Also, while the Malibu and Aura are competitive cars, they do have some shortcomings. One problem is that they're narrow inside. The back seat probably has about 3-4" less shoulder room than the Camry, Accord, and Altima. It's still a comfy 4 seater, but 3 people in the back seat is going to be tight. That might be a concern for some people, although I can't remember the last time I've had three across in the back of any of my cars!
When equipped with the 2.4 4-cyl and 6-speed automatic, fuel economy is impressive, and competes very well against the 4-cyl Camry/Accord/Altima. But with the V-6, it seems like they finally got the performance with the 3.6 DOHC, but it's a bit thirsty. The EPA rates it at 17/26, compared to 19/29 for the V-6 Accord and 19/28 for the V-6 Camry. Now the old 3.5 pushrod, which I think is still offered in some trim levels, or may be only for fleets by now, gets 18/29. So it seems with the V-6 in these GM cars, you can either get the power or the economy, but not both, like you can with the imports.
So I'd consider the Aura/Malibu to finally be competitive cars, but I'm not sure I could call them class-leading. If I was in the market for a car, I'd consider an Aura. But I'd also consider the Altima, and even the new Accord is starting to grow on me.
The CTS and Enclave are great vehicles, but are also niche markets, and won't be enough to save GM.
As for the Lucerne, well I like it and so do you Lemko, but not too many other people care about it! You recently bought a new Cadillac, and I'm not planning on buying a brand-new car for the indefinite future, so there it probably lost its only two potential customers. :P
The Silverado/Sierra might be the best truck on the market right now, but even they're not without their faults. I hear that the models that still use the 4L60E transmission still tend to eat them fairly regularly. The 4.8 and 5.3 V-8's used to have a problem with piston slap, but perhaps that's no longer an issue? And even if it's the best truck on the market, unfortunately that's also a market that's no longer very lucrative. Although with gas down below $2.00 per gallon in many places (I paid $1.879 during lunch today) it's possible that might change.
It's worth noting that back in the late 70s & early 80s, the British government spent billions trying to rescue British Leyland, which had been the UK's largest car manufacturer. But BL went under anyway.
And the British economy survived.
You make second-rate, you pay the piper sooner or later...the economy has made it sooner but the Gov't might make it a little bit later. It's inevitable, really.
There is a reason it's called Red Tag Sale...I'm waiting for the "Bail-Out Sale"!
"Ford has the money to make a go of it until it brings new product "
No, Ford has at the most 6 months of cash with the current sales. If GM does not get the money it will go chapter 7. The two other domestics will go within 1 month and then the entire US built industry will shut down for up to a year. The Japanese and Germans will then turn on their foreign plants and import 100% where they can and will struggle where they cannot (trucks).
Comments
Who's Charlie?
What companies have CUT retiree healthcare and checks
A neighbor of a close friend had his pension cut and healthcare costs were increased. I don't know if it's a national company from which he retired or not. I'll ask our friend when I see her next. She had him paint her home and do some interior paint and light remodeling work because she felt sorry for him.
A parent in a group my son was in kept finding the national company for which he worked kept changing the promise for healthcare for retirees. He hadn't retired yet but what I understood is that the company kept paying less and less. He also kept fighting the changing amount of retirement if he did retire. I don't see him often to ask how it turned out.
In GM's case the retirees need to take a reduction to help keep the company going. Otherwise..., no sympathy.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Maybe start taking some action toward re-training. Your "facts" don't hide the fact that you avoid: not enough people want GM, Ford and Chrysler products. Should the U.S. be involved in throwing hard-earned tax monies away?
Poor planning and management has equalled big-time trouble and throwing a very expensive Band-Aid at this while a lot of peope in all trades and industries are also losing their jobs isn't making good common sense to me.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Not sure what you mean by modest. I can tell you after 37 years in the Teamsters my retirement is not even close to the guys in the IBEW or Operating Engineers. Plus I did not get any health care or dental. That would have equaled about $950 per month. So if your dad gets Health care he is ahead of me there. Then when you take into consideration the fact that I was remote the last 25 years that should be worth something. I would imagine your dad was home most nights. Where I was in a 10 X10 cubicle for half the nights of those 25 years. Again anyone wanting to go remote there are plenty of jobs for those with skills. One of my friends retired at 57 or 6 years younger than I did with twice the monthly pension I get. He was a mechanic on the pipeline and put in a lot of 12 week shifts 12-16 hours per day.
Is your dad old enough to retire? If not he should be looking for a job to supplement his pension until SS kicks in.
Computers? Maybe if he wants to work in Bangladore.
Health Care? Good call, but if everybody is unemployed, underemployed, or uninsured, how is he going to get paid?
Trades? All the tradesmen are having a tough time due to the housing crunch. Heck, even the illegal immigrants who did such work are going back over the border.
Law Enforcement and Prisons would be a good choice, but if the tax base is decimated, who's going to pay for all those police and correctional officers?
I assume most of ya'll seen the video I posted. If the Big 3 fail this country is done !!! What's good for Big 3 is good for America. If we can give a bunch of money to sleazy Wallstreet executives to spend on spa resorts or on a worthless war in Iraq, that had nothing to do with 9/11 we can sure in the hell bailout the Big 3. It's a loan and once we fix trade and currency manipulation GM, like many struggling domestic manufacturers will be better off. I would love nothing better than to not only see General Motors, build the future green vehicles but also get involved in building other forms of transportation i.e. bullet trains, jet airplanes, etc.....
If the tax payers want to guarantee GM, success give them contracts to build some of these green technologies here in the U.S.
-Rocky
-Rocky
Correct and it's with Fidelity !!!
-Rocky
Well that's not true either because GM, still sells by quite a large margin more automobiles than Toyota, here in the U.S. last time I checked !!!
Should the U.S. be involved in throwing hard-earned tax monies away?
Invest $25 billion now or lose $160 Billion in 3 years thus the choice is yours !!!
Poor planning and management has equalled big-time trouble and throwing a very expensive Band-Aid at this while a lot of peope in all trades and industries are also losing their jobs isn't making good common sense to me.
I would throw more than $25 billion at the problem. I would give the Big 3 a $100 Billion Dollars and with that money with government oversight I would award them contracts to build locomotives, military equipment, etc.....
-Rocky
-Rocky
GM folding will be forgotten in a year. Except for the suckers with their cars that were supposed to be covered by warranty. NO ONE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WOULD BUY A GM VEHICLE NOW. Ford will probably come out stronger as will Toyota and the other transplants.
That has to be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard in my life !!!! :sick:
General Motors Corp
Executive Salaries, Bonuses, Stock Options, and Other Compensation
http://www.companypay.com/executive/compensation/general-motors-corp.asp?yr=2008-
-Rocky
Those salaries and bonuses are even more reason to let GM DIE. Wagoner sees no reason to change the top tier managers. Gettlefinger sees no reason for the UAW to give concessions. GM cannot make it without outside cash to pay these high costs. Let them go. And I do not believe for one second that GM is that important to the US economy. Barely a blip on the GDP. Not even one half of one percent. You are living in the past as is most of the UAW members. You watch too much worthless TV. It is in Obama's court now. Bush handed it over to him. He does not want to deal with that bunch of losers in the 110th Congress.
-Rocky
I wished Fintail, was around to keep you in check !!!
-Rocky
Your GDP numbers are inflated because they're made by a UAW member, aren't they?
The bailout is dead. I agree with gagrice on this one. Dead. Done. Cya-Nara. Cya-woudn't want to have ever been ya. Over. And out.
rockylee...is it true that Chev really wants $46,995 for the 2010 Chevy Volt? Please tell me that's an Internet misnomer, man. :sick:
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
free trade is not necessarily fair trade, The chinese surplus is over $259 billion and only growing..,
With the banks getting bailed out(and that number is well past a few $$$trillion, some say getting close to $9trillion or more) the Big 3 should get a $100 billion rescue loan that gets paid back with interest..,
if you are into green that bad(and i am not saying it is bad) then you should try puting more green into the average homes that create pollution also..,
okay, if you like cars more then maybe you should start working on the 'Car Tires' and i have just the link for you --> link title
and let the foreigners build cameras or maybe you can try selling the foreigners to the u.s. military.
What I cannot believe is how even here, after it has been repeated and repeated, that we do not know the real facts. How in the heck can we expect the rest of the country to know????
ALL employees of GM have lost their retiree health care. ALL
Salarieds pay 100%. UAW retirees are getting something from their own UAW accounts. GM will not be on the hook.
Caveat: GM has agreed to make a multi billion payment into some UAW fund to start the fund.
And why does he give the Germans a pass? The Japanese may sell more units, but the top end of the market, which the Germans have dominated for decades, accounts for a huge chunk of the profits. As far as its bottom line is concerned, GM would be in much better shape if it sold fewer Chevies & more Caddies. Luxury is where the money is.
But my main gripe with these "Buy American" guys is that they don't understand this basic fact: you don't have to wave the flag to get most of us to buy American if you're building exciting cars.
Yeah, we'll go into a deep depression if the Big Three collapse and we'll come out of it in about 5-10 years. Of course, will any of us be here when it ends? I so, won't we be living a much diminished lifestyle?
Import lovers should really fear a collapse of the Big Three if they love their cars so much. Let me give you this scenario.
"Hey, Bill! How's your new 2016 Toyota Camry? I love it, Joe, but I can't seem to keep a decent paint job on it. Every morning I wake up to see some joker keyed it or spraypainted profanity on it! Yeah, I'm having trouble with my 2014 Honda Accord. I just can't keep tires on it because some idiots keep slashing the sidewalls. Hey, there's Al! Al, we've been talking cars. How's your 2015 Nissan Altima? Fine, except I can't seem to keep glass in it with all these unemployed auto workers roaming the streets. Just yesterday, I was stopped at a light and these two guys in tattered clothes threw a cinderblock through my windshield. Geeze, why doesn't somebody call the cops? What cops? The city laid off half the force 'cause there's no tax funds for them. I hear there's going to be more lay-offs..."
If I don't want to buy your product, it's your fault -- not mine. Don't try to bully me into buying by threatening to brick my windshield. Instead, go to work figuring out exactly what I want & offer it to me at a price that I'm willing to pay.
I'll say it again: the customer is always right.
(Anyway, where I live, I'm more likely to be mugged by a laid-off Lehman Bros. managing director than by an unemployed auto worker.)
It's worth noting that back in the late 70s & early 80s, the British government spent billions trying to rescue British Leyland, which had been the UK's largest car manufacturer. But BL went under anyway.
Yeah or Nay on Bailout, But Don't Blame Detroit's Problems Only on Labor (AutoObserver)
What do you mean "cars Americans want to buy?" I'm an American and I consistently buy American cars. The kinds of cars Toyota and Honda build are the type I don't want to buy - ugly, weird, and dull.
Not ALL of the Big Three are going to collapse simultaneously. These companies are in very different situations, even though the lazy media prefers to lump them together.
Ford has the money to make a go of it until it brings new product - Fiesta, all-new Focus, restyled Taurus - to market within the next 18 or so months. The company has reduced production capacity to bring it in line with demand, and sold Jaguar, Land Rover and Aston-Martin, all of where were cash drains and distracting management from focusing on the core brands - Ford and Lincoln. Quality is on the upswing, too.
General Motors is in dire condition. But a restructured GM is still a viable enterprise. Only problem is that a restructured GM would be a much smaller company, sized to serve about 15-18 percent of the market.
The best solution would cause the buy-American crowd and Lou Dobbs to have a stroke. But if the government really wants to save GM, it should turn it over to a foreign company - preferably Toyota - and give said company carte blanche to make the changes necessary to right the ship.
GM's current management has a mixed record at best. The quality is still uneven; the brands are still a mess, with too much badge engineering and overlap; it changes nameplates too often; and there isn't anything on the horizon that will really increase market share. The Volt is not going to be a money-maker, and the Cruze doesn't look any more exciting than the Cobalt. The Camaro is sharp, but one retro-styled pony car isn't going to save GM.
The brutal truth is that Toyota has done a much better job of meeting the needs and desires of American consumers (check the sales figures and market share trends); its quality is still, as whole, superior to GM's quality; its marketing is far superior; and its brands have essentially displaced comparable GM brands in the hearts and minds of customers. Toyota is the new Chevrolet, while Lexus has far more prestige than Cadillac among the younger, more affluent customers who will matter in the coming years.
With a restructured GM, Pontiac, Saturn, Hummer and Saab would go away. Buick and GMC would be combined into one division - call it LaSalle - and share platforms with Chevrolet at the lower end (although no economy Buicks, or LaSalles, please) and Cadillac at the near-luxury end. Chevrolet and Cadillac would be GM's big guns.
The Jobs Bank would go away, and UAW members would accept work rules the same as those at the transplant operations. If the government is going to inject any money into GM, use it to fund the UAW VEBA. Most of upper management needs to go, too. Keep Bob Lutz for continuity.
If GM needs anything, it is culture change. The world no longer revolves around GM, but I get the impression that GM management and the UAW haven't quite figured this out yet. Second, "good enough" isn't good enough anymore.
But the last thing we, the taxpayers, need is for GM to receive aid that only postpones the inevitable, necessary restructuring.
If we give GM money now - the way GM and the UAW want us to do it - prepare GM to beg for another cash infusion in about 6-12 months.
As for Chrysler - it's toast. Cerberus has suspended new vehicle development, leaving the company basically dead. At this point, the best thing that could happen is that foreign companies buy up the remaining valuable parts of Chrysler - Jeep, the minivans, the Dodge Ram and maybe the LX cars. The rest is worthless.
And the collapse of one of these companies will not bring about the next Great Depression. If Chrysler collapses, for example, Ford will pick up the slack, especially in rural areas. There will still be a vibrant domestic automobile industry. People seem to miss that Honda, Toyota, Nissan and Hyundai are expanding their presence here, building vehicles that were designed HERE with American tastes in mind. Their footprint in American will only increase.
And the collapse of one of the Big Three will have very little effect on areas outside of their operations. There won't be marauding bands of unemployed auto workers in southcentral Pennsylvania if GM or Chrysler collapses. Nor will there be Unemployed Auto Workers Gone Wild in San Francisco, Dallas, Orlando, Seattle, Boston, etc. Sorry, but the Big Three aren't that big anymore. It's not 1965 anymore...and let's not quote hysterical press releases from biased, industry-funded sources to "prove" otherwise.
Heard that today's New York Times is recommending that Congress should approve the Bush proposed Treaty with Columbia. Times being the bible of the liberals and Democrats, will Congress now obey the Times and approve the Treaty? Remember that U.S. organized labor has up to this time opposed this Treaty and has Pelosi/Reid in their pocket.
Just as an aside, Ford's selling 2/3rd's of its Mazda stake too. Should net them about $540 million. Straightline
Through the decades, workers in the building trades have always had to cope with recessions on their own. Some of these are carpenters, drywallers, roofers, heavy equipment operators, etc. Mostly they are resilient and adaptable. UAW workers have been shielded from reality by Big 3 management capitulation to ridiculous union demands.
Apparently, you don't have much company.
When I got my driver's license back in the 60s, GM's share of the U.S. auto market was in the neighborhood of 55%. So big & so successful was the company that management's biggest worry was that the government would step in & break it up. (It's widely believed that the Justice Department was prepared to move if GM's market share had reached 60%.)
Today, GM's share is less than 20%, which means that an awful lot of Americans have gone elsewhere. The company has managed to squander what was the most profitable franchise in automotive history. And now we're expected to bail it out?
Yeah, and I know exactly where I'd tell them all to go. Hopefully there is some kind of cosmic justice and they will all soon find themselves unemployed or underemployed and all their beloved imports are towed away to the repossessor's lot or the scrap yard.
GM has had 30+ years to respond to the challenge posed by Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai, BMW and Mercedes. For the most part, it has either failed miserably or succeeded only by avoiding direct confrontation (abandoning cars to focus on trucks and SUVs).
GM had the home team advantage, and it squandered it. When I read DeLorean's book, On a Clear Day, You Can See General Motors, I was shocked at how relevant it remains after 30 years. GM has been poorly managed for too long, and top management has focused on just about everything BUT making top-notch cars. It has survived on sheer size, the truck market and a dwindling customer base that refuses to consider vehicles from other manufacturers.
That is not the fault of people who bought something else.
What do you call the ongoing loss of market share of the Big 3 to the foreign brands? Every American exercises his/her free will to buy the vehicle that is best value to them and meets or exceeds their needs/expectations. Obviously, the foreign brands have been doing a better job than the Big 3 in this regard.
And that vehicle is either a Buick or a Cadillac for me!
So how does this make things better?
Would that need a chapter 11? Have to imagine that the corporate culture of a Toyota, Honda or Nissan is very different from GM. The GM workforce, without a union, and first level supervision maybe could be trained into that culture. Top and middle management would have to be replaced similar to a new U.S. President's administration such as what Obama and Emanuel are now doing. Obama is bringing in his people, but of course retaining apolitical career government employees and grunts.
Is there any way that elements of top/middle management at Toyota, Honda and Nissan could be induced to join a Phoenix GM? What a challenge. This would be like a head coach of a Super Bowl Team leaving it and taking over the worst team in the NFL with aspiration to build it into a Super Bowl contender.
We don't feel the Big Guy has our best interests at heart by any stretch. Product has been tolerable but doesn't light our fire.
I say no to a bailout for the States. Maybe SAIC of China(their Chinese build partner)can purchase bits and pieces of GM, including some experts who don't mind moving to China, and work to build for the burgeoning car-buying public there.
Beggars can't be choosy, eh?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Well, that works for you and others who choose these brands. But, you cannot escape statistics that GM market share is declining. GM has needed to stabilize or increase its share by having its brands appeal to more and more buyers, but that has not happened.
GM did not have competitive models to Lexus, Acura and Infiniti when these were introduced in late 80's and never was able to catch them. If GM were great back then, perhaps Lexus, Acura and Inifiniti would have withered and died for lack of sales early on.
Finally, the 2008 CTS has been acclaimed as near/equal to its foreign brand competitors. Maybe 22 years late. I presume that UAW build CTS, but it was top GM management that finally got it right and hopefully not to late for Cadillac's fate.
Only Lexus seems to have been consistent and, to be brutally honest, the only really decent car they have is the LS460. Everything else is just a "Toyota Deluxe."
Do they still make that silly and pointless LS460h?
Infiniti had a recent resurgeance, but it wasn't too long ago it was an also-ran with a slow-selling Q45. Heck, if I wanted to stand apart from everybody, a Q would've been perfect. You saw maybe one for every 100 Lexus LS.
Acura? Well, the RL would be nice if they put a V-8 in it and priced it at least $10K-$15K less. They made a major blunder letting the cartoonist for Pokemon design the latest TL.
GM was the largest corporation in the World for many years. It has squandered that wealth. It is now something like 10th largest and the biggest loser. It is less than half the sales of WalMart. Only about 10% of the workforce that WalMart has. Yet rocky and friends have no problem trying to organize Walmart with the possible consequence of pushing them into bankruptcy.
If GM goes under Ford and Chrysler will pick up much of the sales and be stronger. I miss Studebaker more than I will Buick. I owned two Studebaker cars and the best PU my dad ever owned was a Stude. No subsidies were offered to keep Studebaker and Packard alive. Same should go for GM. It will add less to the unemployment than was added last month. The dealers that are not already bankrupt will be done from lack of sales by january. Those lost jobs are just as important as the UAW jobs.
I'd seriously consider the Malibu & Aura if I were shopping for a family sedan. But why did we have to wait until practically yesterday for GM to produce compelling alternatives to the Accord & Camry? I've rented the previous generation Malibu & it's nothing I'd want in my garage.
I've said before that the latest CTS is gorgeous & that I'll test-drive one when I'm shopping for a replacement for my BMW.
Here's GM's problem as I see it. Once upon a time, if you asked me to list my 10 favorite cars, 7 or 8 of them would have been GM offerings. (The rest would have been English sports cars.)
Today, there would be 1 GM car on that list: the CTS. Most of the rest would be Germans.
Somewhere along the way, GM lost me because of decisions that GM made - or didn't make.
I'm the customer, & the customer is always right.
I would mourn Buick's passing more than facing the prospect of my own death.
:surprise:
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“What’s good for GM is good for the Army”
“[W]e must act: aiding the American automobile industry is not only an economic imperative, but also a national security imperative
“[A]s Detroit moves to plug-in hybrids and electric-drive technology automakers are developing innovative electric motors, many with permanent magnet technology, that will have immediate military use. And only the auto industry, with its vast purchasing power, is able to establish a domestic advanced battery industry. Likewise, domestic fuel cell production — which will undoubtedly have many critical military applications — depends on a vibrant car industry.”
New York Times, Nov. 16, 2008
The real General has spoken iluvmysephia1
~Those of your against the Big 3 are under some kind of hypnosis~
GM and the Big 3 under normal conditions pays dividends.., sponsors more.., contributes more.., pays more taxes and bails out more than any other.., and yes the Big 3 would bailout the government if needed - All positive - so it pays to help the Big 3
The Malibu and Aura actually have potential, but unfortunately they're late in coming, have yet to prove themselves long-term, and let's face it, people aren't going to come back to GM overnight. It's taken GM decades to lose their customer base, so it's going to take more than just one or two model years for them to get any semblance of it back.
Also, while the Malibu and Aura are competitive cars, they do have some shortcomings. One problem is that they're narrow inside. The back seat probably has about 3-4" less shoulder room than the Camry, Accord, and Altima. It's still a comfy 4 seater, but 3 people in the back seat is going to be tight. That might be a concern for some people, although I can't remember the last time I've had three across in the back of any of my cars!
When equipped with the 2.4 4-cyl and 6-speed automatic, fuel economy is impressive, and competes very well against the 4-cyl Camry/Accord/Altima. But with the V-6, it seems like they finally got the performance with the 3.6 DOHC, but it's a bit thirsty. The EPA rates it at 17/26, compared to 19/29 for the V-6 Accord and 19/28 for the V-6 Camry. Now the old 3.5 pushrod, which I think is still offered in some trim levels, or may be only for fleets by now, gets 18/29. So it seems with the V-6 in these GM cars, you can either get the power or the economy, but not both, like you can with the imports.
So I'd consider the Aura/Malibu to finally be competitive cars, but I'm not sure I could call them class-leading. If I was in the market for a car, I'd consider an Aura. But I'd also consider the Altima, and even the new Accord is starting to grow on me.
The CTS and Enclave are great vehicles, but are also niche markets, and won't be enough to save GM.
As for the Lucerne, well I like it and so do you Lemko, but not too many other people care about it! You recently bought a new Cadillac, and I'm not planning on buying a brand-new car for the indefinite future, so there it probably lost its only two potential customers. :P
The Silverado/Sierra might be the best truck on the market right now, but even they're not without their faults. I hear that the models that still use the 4L60E transmission still tend to eat them fairly regularly. The 4.8 and 5.3 V-8's used to have a problem with piston slap, but perhaps that's no longer an issue? And even if it's the best truck on the market, unfortunately that's also a market that's no longer very lucrative. Although with gas down below $2.00 per gallon in many places (I paid $1.879 during lunch today) it's possible that might change.
And the British economy survived.
You make second-rate, you pay the piper sooner or later...the economy has made it sooner but the Gov't might make it a little bit later. It's inevitable, really.
There is a reason it's called Red Tag Sale...I'm waiting for the "Bail-Out Sale"!
Regards,
OW
Do you hear an echo when you say that...I do! Don't look now, but market share is the guide here.
Regards,
OW
No, Ford has at the most 6 months of cash with the current sales. If GM does not get the money it will go chapter 7. The two other domestics will go within 1 month and then the entire US built industry will shut down for up to a year. The Japanese and Germans will then turn on their foreign plants and import 100% where they can and will struggle where they cannot (trucks).