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Comments
Who said anything about limiting competition??? They can build the Lexus, line over here to avoid the tariff and create thousands more jobs.
2) The import tax, along with rising wages your side proposed, will bloat prices on BOTH ends, which means nothing will change, only the numbers will, but the standard will remain the same. Say, which will you buy? A$50k Malibu or a $53k Accord? A $60k CTS or a $64k BMW? Nothing changes but the numbers, while the standard remains the same.
That is the misean scare card!!!!
) Placing a tariff on imports is a violation to the Free Trade agreement. How does that sound for US reputation?
Well if you like I can site plenty of violations many ofwhich were covered on the news where Canada and Mexico, violated NAFTA. I am quite open about getting rid of NAFTA, like many of our elected leaders from both parties. Instead of our standard of living having to drop down to the 3rd world it should be required to come up to our level!!! I could care less about reputation. Our reputation has been ruined for the last 8 years. I care more about respect than reputation and if the rest of the world saw us protecting our people at home from shoddy, lead tainted, goods they might not like it because they can't make a buck but they would respect us.
A small advice: IMO to make fairer judgements you need to place yourself, on the middle ground, not as part of UAW nor as someone personally harmed by UAW. Once you count in your own personal issues you will certainly fail to make a valid argument. I have nothing against UAW, nor I am tied with UAW by any means, thus I place myself on the middle ground and see things from both perspectives. And what I see is UAW's greed, lazyness and entitlement mentality ruin the economy, the companies they work for, and the pride of being American.
So sad.
You only know based on what you read and hear. Go ask a union official for permission to sit in a couple of union meetings before your final accessment on the UAW or any union for that matter. Not all unions are great but a union is only as strong as it's membership.
-rockylee
Yet just a few sentences ago you were worshipping China, regarding just how big and powerful they are something you obviously support. You are :confuse: me Mr. Capitalist!!!
-Rocky
-Rocky
Why are you sorry??? I'll take working experience over a degree in under water basket weaving any day thus maybe we wouldn't have the silver spooned boys who never held a job in their life running companies into the ground. :sick:
-rockylee
Initial condition: Direct and indirect labor cost (for now, lets assume that labor is of equal value) is twice-thrice of that of competition. Nothing can be done about that, as it is locked in long-term contracts. Therefore, if all other aspects of production are the same (and this is fair assumption in globalized economy), similar product is manufactured at higher price. Competition: X, GM/Ford: X+UAW "surcharge"
That sets in motion the following:
1. To bring total cost to X (Competition level), cost cutting measures are necessary.
2. They can be (not limited to): inferior engineering, inferior manufacturing, inferior parts, inferior materials - resulting in inferior product for the same price. There are some possibilities of more streamlined manufacturing or other measures that do no impact quality, but they are difficult to achieve and in past GM/UAW culture they could not be achieved.
3. Then, the inferior product won't sell, which forces the price point to be brought down (with large price gap enough customers ma accept inferior product to meet sales targets)
4. However, since now lower price is forced upon - more cuts are needed. Labor cost is still locked in, which means everything else goes, creating spiral of inforiority.
5. If no cost cutting measures are done, the company will simply lose money as it would be forced to sell its products at unprofitable prices.
6. Finally, due to its terrible management GM went already through several cycles of 1-6, so it managed to achieve all possible inferiorities AND lose money anyway.
Locking one part of the process out of necessary changes, pushed the companies to measures that have ultimately broght them down, both in terms of the product and in terms of finances. That's how, my friend, unions MAY be blamed at least for large portion of that turmoil.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
They would be as long as the cost of living falls in line and one can buy a 3/2 house for $70G's again instead of $270G's and milk cost $2.00 a gal. instead of $4.00
-Rocky
-Rocky
2018 430i Gran Coupe
-Rocky
Does that mean Honda/Toyota labor costs are 3% (their labor cost being third-to half of that of GM)? If so, I would say that translates into about $1000/vehicle at $20K price point. Now, if you need your car be 2-3 grand less than competition for customers to buy it, we have $3000-$4000 cuts necessary. Wow - that explains those hinges.
School can be helpful. The power of math - not only on a job.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
-Rocky
-Rocky
And who is responsible for allowing that to happen? If our company did not pay $7 an hour into our Teamster pension fund they got a letter from the Union attorney. That is clearly a failure on the part of the UAW, if GM did not pay into a fund that was agreed upon in the UAW contract.
look at the Teamster Pension fund.
I am not familiar with the Teamster International pension fund. The Alaska Teamsters have their own separate Pension fund. And yes we also negotiated a 401K plan in 2000. So our company pays $7 per hour into the Teamster fund and matches up to 3% into a Fidelity 401K plan. So what is your point. It is not run like a Ponzi scheme that the UAW and the D3 are under. It was pay as you go. Not dumped onto the next generation to support the current retirees. That is so Democrat Liberalism. Did I mention that Madoff was a Democrat.
I'm sorry if I don't share in your desire for a one world government gagrice.
Don't blame me, I voted against the one world government party. You want to see one world government thinking look no further than our current Secretary of State and her husband.
My father's Delphi plant made $144 million in profit after paying everyone thus those restrictive work rules didn't stop it from making money.
Is that supposed to impress me? What was the return on investment for the stockholders? That is just as important as paying the bills. People do not invest willingly in companies that do not make a decent profit. If Delphi was profitable they would not have filed for C11. That is the whole issue with GM and the UAW. GM has NOT made a decent profit in 20 years. Why should we bail out a failing company. Just to keep a few over paid UAW workers living the high life.
It is out in the open now that the D3 are begging for tax payer money. The UAW contracts are a big part of the failure of the Domestic automakers.
Would you include yourself in that sentence?
Sadly I would. I spent more time blogging on Edmund's the last couple years than I did working. Even then I was not the least productive employee on the job. The guy senior to me spent his days in the warehouse smoking his pipe and swapping war stories with a couple operating engineer mechanics that shared the warehouse with us.
So I know first hand how a few people that are less than productive can bring down the whole crew in a Union shop. It was easy to just pass it off as a management problem. As a shop steward I tried to cover up my wasting time. But after a while it was no big deal. That was one of the reasons I quit a great job and took early retirement. I wanted to outlast the top guy. He did not retire until the next year at 75 years of age.
Education is just like any other investment - you always risk it's going to lose you money or underperform. Does not mean that if you chose to do nothing (for any reason) and your life sucks, you can blame others for that. BTW, why do you need somebody to sponsor you? Why is it always somebody else to pay for your ventures?
2018 430i Gran Coupe
-rockylee
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Well GM, lost money some years in the Reagonomic era and was allowed to delay it's pension contributions from what I understood.
I am not familiar with the Teamster International pension fund. The Alaska Teamsters have their own separate Pension fund. And yes we also negotiated a 401K plan in 2000. So our company pays $7 per hour into the Teamster fund and matches up to 3% into a Fidelity 401K plan. So what is your point. It is not run like a Ponzi scheme that the UAW and the D3 are under. It was pay as you go. Not dumped onto the next generation to support the current retirees. That is so Democrat Liberalism. Did I mention that Madoff was a Democrat.
Well my uncle will get a check from the big international fund when he retires. So ya'll had your own fund?? Why??
Don't blame me, I voted against the one world government party. You want to see one world government thinking look no further than our current Secretary of State and her husband.
Well you are scaring me with some of your rhetoric that sounds a lot like a globalist spokesmouth.
Is that supposed to impress me? What was the return on investment for the stockholders? That is just as important as paying the bills. People do not invest willingly in companies that do not make a decent profit. If Delphi was profitable they would not have filed for C11. That is the whole issue with GM and the UAW. GM has NOT made a decent profit in 20 years. Why should we bail out a failing company. Just to keep a few over paid UAW workers living the high life.
The main reason Delphi, filed bankruptcy here on it's U.S. operations was to squash the union workers and they successfully accomplished that goal and like every other corporation that has followed suit well their is no one left to buy the cars because people have no disposable income. That pretty much explains today's reasons why we haven't been able to life ourselves out of this!!!
It is out in the open now that the D3 are begging for tax payer money. The UAW contracts are a big part of the failure of the Domestic automakers.
With D3, giving away the farm with incentives to move inventory one would think the problems are way beyond UAW contracts!!! :confuse:
Sadly I would. I spent more time blogging on Edmund's the last couple years than I did working. Even then I was not the least productive employee on the job. The guy senior to me spent his days in the warehouse smoking his pipe and swapping war stories with a couple operating engineer mechanics that shared the warehouse with us.
But if a UAW worker did any of that during slow times you would want to show him a trap door and a noose!!! :sick:
So I know first hand how a few people that are less than productive can bring down the whole crew in a Union shop. It was easy to just pass it off as a management problem. As a shop steward I tried to cover up my wasting time. But after a while it was no big deal. That was one of the reasons I quit a great job and took early retirement. I wanted to outlast the top guy. He did not retire until the next year at 75 years of age.
My gawd why didn't you leave 7 years earlier??? 30 years in one place is long enough or was the joband money you made too addicting to leave???? :surprise:
-Rocky
Because in order to get a journeymens card a company is required to sponsor you for training and documenting your OJT time with a skilled trades worker.
Proves my initial point. Labor cost kills Detroit, period.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Mine is a lot simpler.
It tells the hiring person that this person has the dedication, drive and desire to achieve something. In that process, the person learns some tools that will help him in his job.
Is that just a retort for the sake of it?
It is not a matter of who watches it. It proves, like getting a degree/diploma, that this vehicle has enduring capabilities. You could sit all day long on the fence and say I am as good as an engineer (but no degree). Prove it.
-Rocky
I can't blame them for leaving Dakar or the Auto Shows. There's more important work that needs time and resources thrown to it.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
link title
>We proved discrepancy to the engineers and management. We were told to do the best we could, because they're not going to retool that quarter panel.
I have been there and done that. That is one of the most frustrating times that the assembly workers has to go through i.e. Fix the mistakes of all the the processing that has happened up the line. But then, that is also another reason the assembly worker is considered "skilled" and paid highly. If he/she were to simply bolt the pieces on, then we don't need highly skilled workers on that line. The production cost is always there. You either pay it up front i.e. better design and better tooling (that has been tested) or you pay highly skilled assembly labors to fix the problems when they come across.
Apparently GM was not paying attention up front, and expecting the assembly workers to perform to the skilled wages they were getting.
a total crap hole, if I might use that word.
Why can't you do that yourself? find a skilled tradesman and start working with him.
Even though I have 1 Bachelor's and 2 Masters Degree(s), I still learn skills every now and then simply by hooking up to people who have them and learning from them. I don't go around looking for sponsorship. I only go around looking for opportunities to learn.
Let's try again, this time slower:
1. YOU made a claim "labor is ONLY 8.4% on average 28K domestic/UAW car".
2. 8.4% of 28K = $2352. YOUR NUMBERS, not mine. We have to assume some number of hours per vehicle - let's say it's 30 hrs (most efficient are less than 20 hrs/vehicle, but 28K car is already a little more premium, thus it requires more labor). Brings labor cost to $2352/30=$78/hour, which is in line with total GM/UAW direct plus "legacy" cost.
3. Now - these are my numbers: imports use labor in something like $35/hour, incluing everything - which brings that cost $35*30hrs = $1050/car.
4. $2352-$1050 = $1352: that is competitive advantage of non-UAW labor vs. UAW labor.
6. Lots of hinges can be bought for that amount already. However, it is also known (evident by sales numbers and pricing structure) that for last 20 years D3/UAW cars REQUIRE lower price (in the same class) to remain on the market. Say it is $2000/car - quite reasonable amount at $28K price point. Lots of D3/UAW cars are cheaper even at half that price.
5. $2000+$1350 = $3350 of cost cuts outside of labor REQUIRED to GM/UAW built vehicles for $28K car. That is about 12 percent cost cutting required because of labor cost disadvantages.
What's so hard to understand? Yes, I could manipulate numbers, to more/fewer hour per vehicle, or smaller/larger price disadvantages. However, the conclusion remains - LABOR COST IS NOT "SMALL", especially if a lot of other components are practically fixed for everybody.
You made a claim it made no difference if "good working" person was over or underpaid in cost of a car. I just showed you - it did. Yes, you can throw insults and remain blind/deaf on arguments as you repeatedly choose. I'll leave to judgment of others if 8.4% is actually "small".
2018 430i Gran Coupe
When the Teamsters formed in Alaska in the early 1960s they did not want anything to do with the corruption in the International. It was 30 years before we even got close to the International. Our pension fund is totally separate. I have a friend that is on the board. We do not invest with the mob like so many Unions have done.
The main reason Delphi, filed bankruptcy here on it's U.S. operations was to squash the union workers and they successfully accomplished that goal and like every other corporation that has followed suit well their is no one left to buy the cars because people have no disposable income. That pretty much explains today's reasons why we haven't been able to life ourselves out of this!
You have to know those last two statements are total bunk. You are trying to get me to believe that 400k UAW workers make the difference between selling 17 million cars in 2007 and 13million in 2008. Every body was making money selling cars in 2007 except the domestics. Why did GM lose billions 4 years in a row during the best auto selling market ever? Toyota made what $11 billion net profit in 2007. If GM could not make money when 17 million vehicles were sold. How the heck will they survive with only 9 million this year?
But if a UAW worker did any of that during slow times you would want to show him a trap door and a noose!!!
No I am just trying to get you to see the mentality that total job security breeds. When someone knows his Union will save his butt when he screws up, it is a lot easier to slack off. And when the other guys are slacking off and management does nothing production goes in the toilet. Doors do not get fitted properly. Cheap hinges are used to save money when there is no where else to cut costs.
My gawd why didn't you leave 7 years earlier?
My pension would have been much smaller and I would have been paying $900 per month for health care. And it was not a great health care plan at that. 70% with me paying 30% up to $4000 per year. Now I have a good pension. Do not have to use my 401k that is back to what we contributed. Plus I get more SS by working right up till I retired. I would have to have about $1,500,000 in my 401k to get the same pension I get now. With only $9000 per year allowed into my 401k per year I would never make it. I think it is more now. Biden wants you to pay tax on the money you put in. So you can expect no pretax investment soon. You are going to have a hard time paying back all the government wants to waste. Without a good job you would be better off going section 8 in the Ninth ward of New Orleans, stealing a big screen TV and let Sam take care of you.
Well-run businesses that know how to satisfy their customers don't need this protection.
From the customer's point of view, a tariff is just a back-door tax that drives up prices. Slap a tariff on new cars, & customers will try to avoid the resulting higher prices by keeping their old cars longer or buying used cars. Tariffs will hurt new car sales for all brands - both domestic & foreign.
I think that Mitsubishi is showing prudence. Unlike GM that just keeps throwing money away hoping that some one will bail them out. I can tell you that the American people are not thrilled to be using their tax dollars to subsidize workers that make a heck of a lot more money than most of them do. The UAW worker with any seniority is in the top 5% of the US wage earners. For a job that takes all of a couple days to be trained.
Reality is just about to take over the Domestic auto industry and most UAW workers will not know what hit them.
-Rocky
-Rocky
Investing with the Mob, though you knew your money was protected!!!
You have to know those last two statements are total bunk. You are trying to get me to believe that 400k UAW workers make the difference between selling 17 million cars in 2007 and 13million in 2008. Every body was making money selling cars in 2007 except the domestics. Why did GM lose billions 4 years in a row during the best auto selling market ever? Toyota made what $11 billion net profit in 2007. If GM could not make money when 17 million vehicles were sold. How the heck will they survive with only 9 million this year?
I am saying the blue collar population as a whole gagrice, both union and non-union have had their wages and benefits kicked down across the nation. Lou Dobbs, has spoken a lot about the war on the middle class. The globalist have created a serf n' elite society and it appears that domestic automobiles aren't part of the plan. :sick:
No I am just trying to get you to see the mentality that total job security breeds. When someone knows his Union will save his butt when he screws up, it is a lot easier to slack off. And when the other guys are slacking off and management does nothing production goes in the toilet. Doors do not get fitted properly. Cheap hinges are used to save money when there is no where else to cut costs.
Manufacturing plants are heavily monitored because of the lean manufacturing process implemented today. "Just in time delivery"
Biden wants you to pay tax on the money you put in.
Got a link to that story??? I have not seen that!!! :confuse:
-Rocky
-Rocky
I will add this: 8.4% is a good profit margin in most businesses. This has already eaten up your profits if everything else was constant.
I guess you missed the speech by Biden when he said he was going after the $80 billion in taxes that were attached to the 401K plans.
October 16, 2008
House Democrats Contemplate Abolishing 401(k) Tax Breaks
Powerful House Democrats are eyeing proposals to overhaul the nation’s $3 trillion 401(k) system, including the elimination of most of the $80 billion in annual tax breaks that 401(k) investors receive.
http://www.workforce.com/section/00/article/25/83/58.php
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Granted, not all assembly line workers could/would drive toward a phd, but a bachelors is attainable with a lot of sacrifice to attend classes at night and study, do homework. Lots of frivolous activity has to be tossed aside to attain a bachelor or more going to night classes, one or two per semester. How many other success stories are there of UAW workers working toward bachelor over last 2-3 decades and then attaining?
Didn't UAW pick one of the Big 3 to strike against just before each contract? Weren't they doing this for many decades, including the 80's? How did that help GM? Didn't GM lose a lot of sales and revenue because of these strikes?
My father made $29 an/hr his final year at Delphi, as a Job Setter or a hair over $60,000.00 a year his final year.........You would have to work a butt load of overtime to reach the marks you are talking about and not have a life. I had a uncle who was a tool & die worker who hogged all the OT he could and made $120K+ a year thus it's possible to get in the six digits if your life is GM/Delphi and "if" their was plenty of OT available....This new generation of autoworkers will be lucky to work a steady week let alone OT!!!
I guess you missed the speech by Biden when he said he was going after the $80 billion in taxes that were attached to the 401K plans.
Must have!!!
October 16, 2008
House Democrats Contemplate Abolishing 401(k) Tax Breaks
Powerful House Democrats are eyeing proposals to overhaul the nation’s $3 trillion 401(k) system, including the elimination of most of the $80 billion in annual tax breaks that 401(k) investors receive.
House Education and Labor Committee Chairman George Miller, D-California, and Rep. Jim McDermott, D-Washington, chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee’s Subcommittee on Income Security and Family Support, are looking at redirecting those tax breaks to a new system of guaranteed retirement accounts to which all workers would be obliged to contribute.
Sounds like a great plan!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-Rocky
XWAYZZ
Currency manipulation and the cool thing to do in California, was to drive a import because it was cooooooooool!!!! I had 2nd cousins that thought their tin foiled Celica's were the bomb. They were gutless piles !!!!
-Rocky
They made money some years and others they didin't thanks to Roger Smith, and the reasons why they went on strike were many of the same reasons that exist today....
-Rocky
Great idea! Another Social Security plan.
http://www.autoblog.com/tag/GM+white+book/