United Automobile Workers of America (UAW)

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  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    First thing ya gotta do is accept the fact that the UAW is slowly (rapidly?) going the way of the buggy-whip makers...dying...the scam is up and all the world is now paying attention...lug nut installers and floor sweepers are not, have not, and never will be worth over $8-10 per hour...some labor, while honest work, simply has little inherent value which is why the pay is low, or should be low...

    While the Big 3 were "profitable" nobody cared what the floor sweeper earned, simply because a buyer could go out and spend his money on any product he wanted, so, if he was going to "protest" the overpaid floor sweeper, he went out and bought a Honda, avoiding UAW made cars...

    Now the game is different...automakers want TAXPAYER money to keep them and the UAW afloat, which is ironic, because IMO it is the poor quality and substandard workmanship of the UAW workers that has chased many buyers to the imports...so, Big 3 and UAW want taxpayer money to keep them alive while it is the UAW that made the Big 3 crap that drove buyers away so that the Big 3 had no profits because the buyers went to their competiton, which was, and is, obviously better made...

    Now it is that TAXPAYER, who the UAW drove away into the arms of the imports, who is the one who will pay his/her hard earned taxes to keep worthless workers afloat, while his remaining hard earned dollars are making the car payments on the Honda he bought because he thinks, rightfully so, the the UAW products are junk...NOW that buyer IS paying attention to the wages of the floor sweeper and lug nut tightener because he is asked to pay his taxes on his $15/hour earnings, to support someone making $35/hour earnings, making a product he has gone out of his way to avoid...

    NOW the salary of the overpaid, underworked UAW member is VERY much on his mind, and the fact that they are paid ridiculous wages to perform very unskilled tasks now bothers him greatly, because he is paying taxes to subsidize the worthless, useless and shiftless UAW worker, while trying to make his own payments on a non-UAW product...now the absurdity of the wages of the unskilled UAW member are on the forefront of his mind, because he bought his Honda, not caring if the Big 3 live or die...to pay taxes to the gov't to keep the UAW alive when market forces have virtually killed the union and its employer is not fair to the Honda buyer...NOW the thought of a floor sweeper making $35/hour is something he can't stand, simply because he does not believe that he should have to pay for it...

    Remember the mission statement of the UAW, straight from Walter Reuther's mouth..."To attract the lowest quality workers in the highest possible quantity, to manufacture the lowest quality workmanship in the highest possible quantity, thereby permanently contaminating the American supply of goods and services"

    Rocky, come into the present, and jump into the future...Obama ain't gonna do anything to change the Michigan economy, and the union is on life support, just waiting for someone to pull the plug...all those union workers have had it easy for 50 years, and the gravy train is simply coming to an end...whether peaceful or violent, the UAW gravy train/fairy tale of 3rd grade-educated, mostly illiterate, workers making $35/hour are coming to an end...film at 11:00...

    Wishy-washy post has ended...strong opinions to follow shortly...:)

    (Been gone for a week...mother-in-law died in Mississippi...87 years old, very sick...her ordeal is over, in a better place now, so funeral was almost a happy affair, knowing there is no more pain for her)
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    They made money some years and others they didin't thanks to Roger Smith, and the reasons why they went on strike were many of the same reasons that exist today....

    Didn't UAW used to strike if GM made money, GM should "share the wealth"? Then since GM is now dying shouldn't UAW "share the loss"? After all, it is the teamwork thing to do. :P
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Sorry about your loss Marsha7!!! Even though you've losted your mind a long time ago by writing the above statements which is clearly hawg wash and you know it...I'm going to cut you a break out (grace period) of respect for your MIL!!!! ;)

    -Rocky
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    "Does that mean peole are going to compare current quality instead of some GM car someone owned from 20 or more years ago where they had trouble with their Tahoe and try to post negative about GM every time they get on Edmunds?"

    This I actually agree with you, believe it or not. Chevy's service has been improving while Toyota's falling. Productwise I dare say Camry's fit-finish is a joke, Malibu actually better. Still below Honda on both product and service quality imo, but "IF" GM can keep improving it's not beyond reach.
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    "Yet just a few sentences ago you were worshipping China, regarding just how big and powerful they are something you obviously support."

    Hmm? Why would I worship China? I worship none, I'm just a realist. Reality is China is starting to take over, and we need to do something to compete not to rule. The reality is China is now the world's biggest market, not US. You don't have to be a worshipper to ackowledge that they're becoming big and powerful. So you're implying that if you're impressed by something means you're on their side, or even worship them? I'm on the middle ground, I don;t take sides. Only narrow minded people think we have to take a side and stick to it, or if we like something we have to take it's side. That's ridiculous.

    We sow the seeds of capitalism, and now we reap the result, it's that simple.

    Me? I honestly don't care if China is becoming the dominant country, as long as US stays healthy and our economy doesn't sink further down.
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    "my numvers were based on a $28K car the average price ofa new car and eliminating the currency issue and slapping a tarriff on the hood of each import would yield stronger hinges."

    And you think that would stop people from buying imports? Just curious, because I sure as hell don't think they will.

    Instead of screaming about giving imports extra tariffs, how about making better cars people will WANT TO BUY?

    It is my belief that if D3 build better cars that can at least be on equal, if not better than imports, then consumers will buy them, regardless of the price being lower od slightly higher than imports.

    Of course, to do so then D3 need the good engineers back, which means UAW must make sacrfices as well. Oh wait, you don't want that right? UAW wants the D3 to prevail as long as UAW doesn't have to make concessions. So selfish.. :sick:

    Setting tariffs on imports will only PROTECT the industry, not make the industry BETTER. It'll be on UAW's benefit, not the PUBLIC benefit.

    It's too easy to see right though it. You seem to wish for people to protect UAW but UAW does nothing in return. The kind of greed and shamelessness that makes me even sadder... :sick: :P
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    "Ok...but what does this have to do with the fact, that for the past 20 or so years, the big three have been making vehicles that the majority of Americas, no longer wish to buy?"

    Good point. That's why D3 need their engineers back, and to pay them what they're worth UAW will have to get a pay cut. Simple.
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    "I am entitled. I am an american!!! "

    BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA........................... omg I'm laughing so hard it feels like blood may spurt out ofmy nostrils in no time.

    That explains a lot of things I wonder about you. Seriously, just because you're American you think you're entitled for everything?

    Why must we save the UAW? Because they're American? Get real. Perhaps you're not noticing but your ideas are heavily biased towards socialism, and you call me a China worshipper? LMAO.....

    Surely you're better than this. Surely your "experiences" have taught you to be more mature than this 28 yo brat, right?
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    In case the UAW and other Unions don't realize, it's an employer's market at the present time. Bet there are many highly qualified individuals that will bust the Unions in the next few months.

    Time to get started, guys. Either accept a fair wage, C11 or it's curtains!

    Regards,
    OW
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,691
    Reality changes slowly for many people. Post like this are becoming much more common in discussions:

    .I purchased an 09 Camry LE V6 (Canadian model). I have not been pleased with my car after several months of ownership. Does anyone else have the following issues:

    1. The plastic garnish surrounding the clock is completely popped up in the front. If you look at your dash it should be a smooth transition between this piece and the rest of the upper dashboard. Not mine. The dealer claims it's a fit and finish issue with this piece and there's nothing they can do to fix it. WTF.
    2. There is a buzzing noise coming from my brake pedal. It's most noticeable when I first start the car on a cold morning and use the brakes.
    3. The seatbelts squeek when your body shifts forward. They applied silicone lubricant which didn't solve the problem
    4. The plastic piece on the driver's side B-pillar seems to be bowing out.

    These things really bother me as I paid a premium for the Toyota logo. Conventional wisdom would dictate that such issues is more commonly found on an American or Korean car. I'm at a loss to see my new car with more defects than my 12yo American car.


    Just as some people rely on past, long past, experiences they had or heard about from a friend with an American branded car, some people rely on experiences of others about the foreign brands.

    I can supply many more examples from Accord and Camry if you wish. But I suspect from your post that you understand that all cars have some problems. While the UAW gets blamed for all problems in US cars from the past by a few posters, whom do we blame for the poor VCM and problems in this driver's Camry? The Georgetown workers? Or the management in Japan? The dichotomy comes that the company will get the blame not the workers, but back to US it will be the workers who get the blame from some people.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,691
    >Remember the mission statement of the UAW, straight from Walter Reuther's mouth..."To attract the lowest quality workers in the highest possible quantity, to manufacture the lowest quality workmanship in the highest possible quantity, thereby permanently contaminating the American supply of goods and services"

    Do you have a link for that quote? I can't come up with it using Google. I wanted to see the context in which it was made. :surprise:

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Sheesh. $60K gets you in the top 5%? Shoot, then what am I? Heck, I must BE the elite and I didn't even know it! It's great to be the king! ;)
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Well, I wasn't a UAW member, but I was a Teamster. I worked in the same factory my father did, but he encouraged me to get my Bachelor's degree. I did manage to pull it off, though I did drop out for one semester until I got my financial affairs in order. So it took me 4 1/2 years. My brother did the same thing, but it took him five years.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Apparently, GM was also making very good cars during the same period as I still have two of them!

    I wonder if the next cool thing in California will be to drive a domestic? Heck, if the masses are all driving imports, why not break away from the herd and drive a domestic? I look at it this way - if everybody is sporting tattoos, piercings, and a mohawk haircut, the guy in the business suit carrying a briefcase is the real rebel!
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I believe the domestic trucks can hold their own - chicken tax or not. The Tundra and Titan are weak efforts on behalf of the imports. They even seemed to downplay their presence at both the Toyota and Nissan displays at the Philly Auto Show. Last year, there was a fancy display showing all the Tundra's components. This year, the Tundra was shoved against a wall and almost forgotten. Curiously, the Prius was also downplayed.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Sheesh. $60K gets you in the top 5%? Shoot, then what am I? Heck, I must BE the elite and I didn't even know it! It's great to be the king! ;)

    LOL, as usual numbers thrown around on this board seem to be pulled out of thin air.

    Top 5% in terms of individual wages it is hard to determine as most data is reported on AGI reported on joint returns. In those terms, the top 5% of household income is around $155k+. I've seen some reports as high as 177K for top 5%.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Looks like Nissan is getting out of the retail truck market. I thought they were having Chrysler make their trucks? Did that get squashed? Or perhaps they are moving the production to Japan due to UAW pressures :P ?

    Nissan confirmed on Wednesday that U.S. production of the Armada/QX56 and Quest will end by 2010.

    Although none of the three will be produced in the U.S. after 2010 – the trio’s Canton, Mississippi plant will be converted to produce Nissan’s new commercial vehicle line – it’s not necessarily the end of the road for the QX56 and Quest. According to Motor Trend, Nissan will continue producing the QX56 and Quest minivan in Japan after 2010.

    However, the future of the Armada nameplate is looking a little bleaker. Nissan did not include the big SUV in its ‘future production’ list and made no mention of switching its production to Japan. The Armada has largely fallen out of favor with U.S. buyers, with sales plummeting more than 50 percent last year.

    The Armada’s platform mate – the Infiniti QX56 – hasn’t exactly been a sales success either, so it’s quite possible that the luxury ‘ute will receive a total overhaul for the 2010 or 2011 model year. John Capps, chairman of Infiniti’s National Dealer Advisory Board, recently revealed that a new version of the QX has been green lighted, with the new model set to take the form of a more conventional CUV model. The new QX will likely be designed in the same vein as the QX4, giving Infiniti a true Lexus RX competitor.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I believe the domestic trucks can hold their own - chicken tax or not.

    In the full sized arena the D3 are the best as far as I am concerned. Especially in the 3/4 ton and heavier. What the Chicken Tax did was keep the small trucks out of the USA. Full sized PUs are nearly non existent in most of the World. The Toyota Hi-LUX is the standard. With a 4 cylinder diesel engine they get 40+ MPG. How many workers if given that option would run their business from a smaller truck? The only reason will sell so many full sized PU trucks here is the mid sized are just as big a gas hogs. My 99 Ranger V6 rarely gets over 15 MPG. That is a joke. And that was all done in the 1950s to protect the UAW and the domestic automakers.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...Chrysler actually builds the new VW minivan. I forget what they call it, but I recall seeing the Chrysler pentastar under the hood. I think there was a plan for the new Nissan truck to be based off the Dodge Ram.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Its a lame duck The current management at VW does not want it. At the auto show it was way in the corner and there was no signage to push it. Routan

    The plan was/still is?

    Beginning in 2010 Nissan will start making a new small car for Chrysler while a year later, Chrysler will start building a new full-size pickup truck for Nissan. The small car will be built to a Chrysler design and will be sold in North America, Europe, and other markets. The truck will be built for Nissan at Chrysler’s Saltillo Mexico assembly plant starting 2011 and will presumably replace the current Titan pickup.”
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    My post which got subverted by Rocky stated that the Delphi UAW worker making $87k after he lost $16k in OT was still in the top tier of US wage earners. I am sure that figure may be higher now for a single wage earner. This chart for 2006 shows $153k adj gross income being in the top 5%. It also shows who pays the bulk of the taxes in the USA.
    Anyway you cut it the UAW worker is way over the median income in the USA with no skills required to land the job. Just a warm body and know some one at the Union hall. There is something wrong with a society that pays a starting wage to an auto assembler that is higher than a teacher with a degree.

    http://www.ntu.org/main/page.php?PageID=6
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    I agree with your post.

    This chart for 2006 shows $153k adj gross income being in the top 5%. It also shows who pays the bulk of the taxes in the USA.

    Don't have to remind me, I recently filed our taxes. We are now paying more in taxes than we were earning just out of college 15 years ago.

    If the D3 could afford to pay their UAW employees the wages they currently command while also creating shareholder value, then I wouldn't have a problem with the contracts. But they can't and I have to open my wallet regardless if I want one of their vehicles or not. So now it becomes my problem.

    I know Rock will go into a tirade about Republicans, unfair trade, currency manipulation, free markets capitalism fallacy, unfair tax subsidies to the transplants etc. The list goes on and on about the excuses why GM is in the position it's in. I don't think I've ever once heard him say the UAW might be any part of the problem, only a victim of losing their God given entitlement of a $30/hr assembly line/janitor job. The truth probably lies in a combination of all these things and many other issues I haven't mentioned.

    All I know is, I'm probably 8 years or so older than Rock and from what I've witnessed in my 38 years (probably 34 years of automobile interest) is that GM (and the other domestics) have produced lots of undesirable cars in that time. I don't think Rock realizes how bad the late 70's and early 80's were. Maybe they were great in Michigan, but I know growing up in northewest Indiana the 70's to early 80's were brutal. Thousands of lost steel jobs and other manufacturing jobs, huge inflation, and overall double digit unemployement. I just hope Obama doesn't go down in Jimmy Carter style.

    The once proud city of Gary, Ind has been in decline since the 1960's. My parents have told me stories about as kids (late 50's to late 60's), that going to Gary for entertainment and shopping was a big deal. Now you'd be lucky to not get mugged, car jacked, or shot. My grandparents finally were to scared to live there by the late 70's and they moved out like anyone else with the means to do so. Gary's decline didn't happen because of Reagonomics, it was dieing 10 years earlier. What's scary is Gary is considered one of the most democratic cities in the US. They can hardly afford to keep traffic lights operational. If that is our future with democratic leadership we're all screwed.
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    rockylee: Currency manipulation and the cool thing to do in California, was to drive a import because it was cooooooooool!!!! I had 2nd cousins that thought their tin foiled Celica's were the bomb. They were gutless piles !!!!

    Why don't you throw in Elvis's death and space aliens abucting potential GM buyers as reasons for GM's decline...your post will be just as credible. ;)
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    You don't want to start that, now do you?? Just with GM, the complaints will beat all the imports.

    Give us a break!

    Regards,
    OW
  • chikoochikoo Member Posts: 3,008
    >Chrysler actually builds the new VW minivan

    Awesome. So I was not wrong when I saw the VW minivan and immediately thought it looked like the new Chrysler minivan. No wonder.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,051
    A $60K a year job gets you in the top 5% now days??? Boy talk about a serf n' elite society!!!

    Nah, it takes more than $60K. According to a this Wikipedia article, an adjusted gross income of $64K gets you into the top 25%. It takes $153K to get into the top 5%, and 388K to get into the top 1%.

    Keep in mind this is also adjusted gross income, which is your income minus deductions. So that's a little different from just wages. I couldn't find any stats on wages.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    There is something wrong with a society that pays a starting wage to an auto assembler that is higher than a teacher with a degree.

    One could argue a Teacher's position is a part-time job also. Also another attempt by you and other to distort the facts the starting wage of a UAW worker back then was only $18 an/hr and one would have to live at the plant to make $87K but I guess you like so many others won't pull out the calculator!!!! Also will mention due to our failing education system you might be better served using another example than a teacher. ;););)

    -Rocky
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Also will mention due to our failing education system you might be better served using another example than a teacher. ;););)

    No it's perfect, another failing institution with high percentage of union labor. Hmm, how ironic.

    One could argue a Teacher's position is a part-time job also.

    I guess that comment shouldn't surprise me from coming from someone who doesn't seem to value classroom education.

    Rock, have you ever volunteered any of your time in a k-12 classroom? You'll find out real quick what a demanding job that is. I've volunteered my time in both of my daughters classrooms on many occasions. Last year I volunteered an hour a week to read to my daughters class. I wouldn't last a month as a teacher. I'd be fired and/or sued for using discipline that is no longer allowed in the classrooms. Sure they get summers off, but many teachers I know including my sister put in very long days during the school year. My sister teaches in a large city school system of primarily poor minorities. Her job is brutal and with a masters she doesn't make $40k/yr. The crap she has to put up with from disrespectful students and parent(s), (the apple often doesn't fall far from the tree) is downright sad.

    I'd be willing to bet their is a positive correlation between a parents involvement and the child's performance in school and success in life. Expecting the teacher to do it all w/o the tools is asking to much.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Rock, have you ever volunteered any of your time in a k-12 classroom?

    I would say it is obvious he hasn't. My wife volunteers every Friday half day in her sister's Kindergarten class. This is not a wealthy neighborhood. They get kicked, bit, spit on and cussed out by 5 year olds. I'm with you. I would probably get tossed in jail for beating the living snot out of a kid that did that to me.

    Rocky seems to be blaming the education system on the teachers. While the NEA does protect tenured teachers even when they are burned out. I would say the bulk of the problem lies with no discipline poor parenting and bloated administration plus the Federal Government sticking their nose in. Our schools are a direct reflection on the entitled mentality that Rocky believes is his right as a US citizen. No responsibility just whatcha gonna gimme. That is the UAW in a nutshell. Not what can a UAW worker do for the company, just what is the company going to do for them.

    Companies are in business to make money. Not to create jobs for people. People that want to help a company make money become a valuable asset. When they become a burden on the company they should be fired.
  • joem5joem5 Member Posts: 201
    Great post. Also, UAW gets better benefits,such as health,retirement with medical paid. The UAW benefits remind me of the benefits congress gets.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I would say it is obvious he hasn't. My wife volunteers every Friday half day in her sister's Kindergarten class. This is not a wealthy neighborhood. They get kicked, bit, spit on and cussed out by 5 year olds. I'm with you. I would probably get tossed in jail for beating the living snot out of a kid that did that to me.

    I have not volunteered my time in a classroom. I have volunteered my time helping college students that have found me here on edmunds with marketing projects in the past. I have donated money, goods, time, over my lifetime to the poor.

    Teacher's got it made with more time off than any other profession despite some of what they put up with. You don't think UAW workers are disrespected. Take a look at all the hate towards them on these forums. You guys are really sad with how much hate and disrespect you guys have for union people and the working class as a whole.

    Yes, I feel entitled as a law abiding citizen certain priveledges of being an american.

    -Rocky
  • bmgpebmgpe Member Posts: 62
    "Well, I wasn't a UAW member, but I was a Teamster. I worked in the same factory my father did, but he encouraged me to get my Bachelor's degree. I did manage to pull it off, though I did drop out for one semester until I got my financial affairs in order. So it took me 4 1/2 years. My brother did the same thing, but it took him five years."

    Uh, oh, lemko has a college degree.

    I trust you are not a derelict.

    After 4.5 years of hard work to earn your degree, I'll bet it was not one of those worthless pieces of paper that is given out like Rocky gives out Holloween candy......
  • bmgpebmgpe Member Posts: 62
    Hey! Those were transplant space aliens driving Toyotas. It could happen...
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    You guys are really sad with how much hate and disrespect you guys have for union people and the working class as a whole.

    Like the UAW, the teacher's union and other state unions have bankrupted California. Every year the percentage of the CA budget going to unions goes up, leaving no money left for roads, etc. We are already the highest taxed state on income, sales tax, business taxes, gasoline taxes. CA takes in 41% more revenue in 2006 than in 2000, yet we have a horrible budget deficit! Just like GM, the union's can't even begin to think of cutting their own benefits. They spend millions on PR to say it's "all about the children" even though our educational system is in the dumper. Unfortunately the state can't declare C11 like GM can, so we are all stiffed. More taxes on the way.

    Many people I know are leaving the state. I like the weather here but I'm probably going to retire elsewhere. No need to subsidize the state unions for the shoddy work they are doing. Unions at one time may have helped the US be successful, but those days are gone. Nowadays they are helping destroy the US.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    Want to talk about entitlements?

    1. As a taxpayer feel strongly I'm entitled to my taxes not being wasted on corporate/labor union welfare programs.
    2. I'm also entitled to purchase products of my choice at lowest market-allowed price without interference or coersion from government or some thugs just because they happen to be from Michigan and they think I should buy something else. Whether or not product of their liking is better, doesn't even matter, but if the product is inferior that kind of coersion is dowright criminal in my view. It's pretty much the same as coming to my house and robbing me at gunpoint, or at best depriving me from some other products I might have been able to purchase if not those guys in Michigan shoving their wonders my throat.
    3. I'm also entitled my property not being vandalized when leave it (authorized) at some place just because I dared to make a choice not to liking people who work at that facility.
    4. In other words - I'm entitled to choose UAW-free product, if I deem one to be more desirable than UAW-endorsed. I expect representatives to fight for my entitlement with their full faith and influence.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Re: teachers having to put up with nonsense and disrespect from students. The present teachers union is not doing a good job in representing their clients. Maybe a union such as UAW which apparently knows how to set down numerous work details would better represent their client/teachers. How simple would it be a UAW teachers's union to demand and receive complete CCTV multi-camera and dvr documentation of all class minutes that would documetn student insurrection and disrespect. The union could then use this against irresponsible parents. Parents then would, maybe, teach their brat children to respect teachers, lest the parent be brought up to school/teacher coalition and made RESPONSIBLE for children misbehaviour. A UAW subset union could be more effective than the present milqetoast teacher's union.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Take a look at all the hate towards them on these forums.

    I don't see any hate toward the UAW workers. I find it disgusting that they are willing to let the D3 fail rather than give up any of their wages or benefits. And don't give me the two tier crap. That is exactly what it is. What kind of a Union has two people doing the same job for different pay scales and benefit packages. The old timers sold out the new hires pure and simple. How you can justify that is beyond all reason. So much for DDs "all for one and one for all". It is all for the old guys and crumbs for the new guys. Well those old guys started with no skills the same as the new guys. And you can rationalize all you want. It is just greed on the part of the retirees and the older workers.

    Yes, I feel entitled as a law abiding citizen certain priveledges of being an american.

    And why are you entitled to more privileges than the guy digging ditches for $12 per hour in San Diego or New Jersey? You are no more entitled than anyone else that has paid his or her taxes. Let's say for the sake of this conversation that the UAW people in your family only made $60k per year. Which is approximately $30 per hour with NO OT. The median income in the USA is $45k. Why does an unskilled auto worker deserve 33% more than the average worker in the USA? If GM and the rest were rolling in dough I can understand going for the gold. That to me is where bonuses come in. I think the Imports reward good production with bonuses. I can see cutting back all UAW workers to the same wage and giving bonuses to groups that perform the best throughout the year. The company makes a good profit, the workers do well. Problem is Rocky, GM has not made a decent profit in YOUR lifetime.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    isn't it just simple business economics at work here? Do you think it makes sense to strike a company that's not making a profit? Wouldn't it make more sense to hunker down and just take the wages that are proposed to you by the company, for that economic climate.

    Yeah, I remember all the SPEEA diehards marching down the hall chanting "STRIKE! STRIKE!" STRIKE!"

    Silly fools...we struck 40 days in early 2000(longest white collar strike in U.S. history) for nothing. The first contract offer was the best. The 2nd offer came in around 30 days in to the strike...it was a good offer, but after fine-tooth combing it I discovered it was a percentage point shy here, a few points shy there. But the group accepted it. Finally-business could resume to normal.

    It is now understood that SPEEA and their leadership struck just to kind of see what Boeing management would do. See if they'd really believe we would do it.

    I'm sorry, but that's a pathetic reason to strike. If those Puget Sound Boeing dorks felt that insecure so that they wanted to strike a month and a half just for funnin'...that's dumb and pathetic and it's not cool. It's stupid.

    And rockford...that's what Union's do to people and for people. I never was one for the whole "group mentality" game. The UAW seems to be full of game players, too. Ones that would rather slug back a Budweiser, turn on a football game and union bond with their buddies. Pass around the questionable viewing material, take a bong hit, ya know where I'm going here.

    Boeing refused to embrace a "pay for performance" program. Was SPEEA somehow responsible for the Company's lack of fortitude and honesty on paying people what they were worth for what they were actually producing? Hee...there wasn't anything they could do about it, was there? That's why that lady never got back to me on my question about pay-for-performance. It violated the socialist...I...I mean Union contract.

    I once had an Engineering Tech. spout over to me to "slow down, you're making all the rest of us look bad."

    He said it kind of fast-like he didn't want anyone else to hear or something. ;)

    Glad to be out of that zoo. I am sure the UAW and GM will be running in to some...umm...need to continue with production problems soon.

    Boeing never held back from laying off people in large numbers. I mean, SPEEA never scared them a bit from axeing as many people as they wanted to. Is something holding GM back from same?

    Is it the UAW and a 20-page segment of that huge work rules document that is forbidding them?

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    While the UAW gets blamed for all problems in US cars from the past by a few posters, whom do we blame for the poor VCM and problems in this driver's Camry? The Georgetown workers? Or the management in Japan? The dichotomy comes that the company will get the blame not the workers, but back to US it will be the workers who get the blame from some people.

    Well, as I've seen quite a ew Camrys they sell in Asian countries (with perfect fit-finish), I dare say it's not a design fault. Thus it must be either their management fault for poor quality control or their workers for doing such terrible job.

    Which leaves the curiosity. While some models at D3 indeed have design faults (because the engineers suck), sometimes the workers are to blame as well. It gets even worse when we consider the effect of their rising wages towards the departure of good engineers at D3.
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    Rock, you didn't answer my question, why is it that if I acknowledge China's power and strong economy you just point your finger on me and call me a Chinese worshipper? What kind of bigot think that way? But sure, whatever. Just make sure you realize how much of a selfish hypocrite you are as well. Check this out:

    "Unions by nature are a leach. However we need a healthy host to suck the blood out of and the only way they can keep a healthy host is to protect it from foreign invaders. It takes a good management team to build products people want to buy to give the host the income to provide the blood the union needs (Rockylee)"

    Hey Rocky, you remember this particular post of yours?

    You admit that Unions are leaches by nature. And you said UAW needs a healthy host to provide the blood right? Then why is it our responsibility to feed you guys?

    It doesn't take a good management team to build products people want to buy, it takes the right employees to create them. Wanna know what the problem is? You guys sucked too much blood to the point it's no longer replaceable. And now you want the rest of us to feed you guys? Now that's communism-socialism.

    You just scream "WE NEED PROTECTION, WE NEED PROTECTION!!!!", well guess what, you should say "WE NEED TO COMPETE, WE NEED TO IMPROVE!!!!!" Every suggestion of yours always lead to your own benefit. Do you really think we're so blind we can't see right through it?

    Try not to point your finger on me before looking at yourself. I was going to say embarass yourself but looking at your posts it's obvious that you barely have any shame left in you.

    You usually responded sharply to my posts, what's the matter this time? My posts nailed the head too hard to counter?
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    "Teacher's got it made with more time off than any other profession despite some of what they put up with. "

    OMG, so much ignorance in this statement is making me hurl.

    Teachers work with more time off? You sure as hell never tried becoming one. Sure they only teach kids until school's over. But then they have to work to make reports, arranging materials for the next day's lecture, creating problems for tests, grading homeworks, quizzes and tests are mostly dome AT HOME. Plus, they get blamed if the kids do poorly, and have to put up with the kids' behavior.
    Oh and in case you forget, they're also responsible for the education of your kids, hence having a huge role in the future generation's competence (or lack of) in life.

    "You don't think UAW workers are disrespected. Take a look at all the hate towards them on these forums. You guys are really sad with how much hate and disrespect you guys have for union people and the working class as a whole"

    I don't hate working class people, I simply am disgusted and have no respect for everyone who think they're better than they really are without doing enough effort. And that includes kids who brag about how rich they are just because their parents are rich. Human trash I dare say, and not all of them are blue collars.

    Here's my question: what makes you think the majority of so called UAW and working class have done what it takes to be respected? What have they done to earn it? What have they earned to deserve protection?

    Don't tell me, "because they've worked so hard" or "they brought rising wages" crap. That's no worthy effort, that's propaganda.

    Give me real valid reasons. And I'm expecting solid answers, I'm not letting you go so easily this time. I'm waiittiiiinngg.... :P
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    Do you really think the same way as Dallas, that we all should equalize in incomes and other aspects? Sorry, ain't gonna happen. There are people up there and there ae those down below. It's an exclusive world up there, only for those who put enough effort or have the capabilities to be there. The rest will be left out, that's simple reality.

    We're all created equal as humans, but each individual's mindset is what determines whether we'll be equals in life. Your mindset simply shows that you don't belong up there, at least in my opinion.

    At the risk of getting off topic, compare your UAW members' "situation and reasoning" with my senior co-worker's

    He used to live in this small town called Ipsilanti.. Ipslantee... err, Ipsilanty? Well, whatever I dont know how to spell it but it's in East Michigan. He didn't go to college because he got no cash. He was given the option to join UAW and work at Lansing plant which (back then) built Oldsmobiles. Took a job only a few years to gather cash and left afterwards.
    He then took a measly job as a janitor at local college (I think it's called U of Eastern Michigan). Why? He could sneak into classrooms and listen to the professors teaching. Whenever his shift was over he hit the library to read some books. 5 years of that, he left and took a job as a real estate marketer in Lansing (as he said it didn't require any degree). Worked hard until he moved here to Washington 18 years ago. Now, a happy 50 yr old man with a nice home in the suburbs, a Park Avenue and a CTS in the garage. And he just finally bought a boat. Sounds familiar?

    He may have no formal education but I respect him the most, even more than I do towards my boss. He got all that through hard work over the years, all those years of sacrifices. He could've stayed with UAW and enjoyed wealthy pay, but he took the hard path for victory. He told me even back then he felt he was overpaid, yet most of his coworkers felt they were underpaid. He said he knew that someday in his life that the Union will sink so low it'll become a public enemy. Hey, he's right.

    And now please compare it with the UAW assembly workers. Years of doing the same thing without the need of improvement, education nor actual skills and yet some of you guys think they should get paid more? What kind of sacrifice did they do to earn it? What makes you think they earned those 2 homes, 2 cars and other convenience items they actually can't even afford? We bust our butts to be up there and you just think you can trample our efforts? Pathetic.

    I'm not saying you should do the same. What I'm saying is: the resources for self improvement are out there, and you all have the opportunity to seize them. If you're too lazy to do that, or arrogantly think you don;t have to, well too bad for you guys you'll be left in the pit for good. Dare you say that those who don't put extra effort deserve to be on equal grounds with those who keep improving?

    Answers please. :shades:
  • kipkkipk Member Posts: 1,576
    >"Teachers work with more time off? You sure as hell never tried becoming one."

    >"We're all created equal as humans, but each individual's mindset is what determines whether we'll be equals in life. "

    Good Posts ! :)
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    #1 is incorrect. You are not entitled to your taxes not being wasted on .....

    We all voted in representatives to make those decisions for us. They are doing that. You can feel strongly about anything. I feel strongly about a lot of things but that does not mean I am entitled until I can convince the reps to do what I want.


    1. As a taxpayer feel strongly I'm entitled to my taxes not being wasted on corporate/labor union welfare programs.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    I don't see any hate toward the UAW workers.

    Come on, I have no love for what the UAW has done in the last 30 years, but I am sorry, what I hear here is a real hate for people who are looked upon as lazy and stupid. Please reread some of the post. It is very sad how we in this world are so easily divided.

    simple example

    Silly fools...

    I'm sorry, but that's a pathetic reason to strike. .that's dumb and pathetic and it's not cool. It's stupid.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    Actually, that is a quote from post about SPEEA strike at Boeing, not UAW.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    I know, but the opinions of love for the unions were right there in front of me. I guess I could go up a page and get more but you get my drift.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You are the one saying it is a love hate relationship with the Unions. After 46 years as a Union member I do not Love the Union. I am thankful for the Pension it provides me. They did a lot of things and allowed a lot of things I did not like. I have not seen anyone post that they hated UAW workers. I think mostly they are manipulated by leaders that are hungry for control and power. In 46 years of Union work I was only on strike one time in 1968. After 2 weeks we got what Pacific Telephone offered to begin with. 37 Years a Teamster and never walked out. How many UAW workers can make that Claim? And I worked for bigger companies than GM. Both AT&T and General Electric. We took cuts in pay when times were tough. Then we got it back when times got better. We did not screw the new hires to protect our senior people. As a Shop Steward for many years there were people that should have been fired. We just did not face management that was inept enough to document and go by the procedures. And they were simple. IIRC our Teamster contract was 38 pages total.

    Disgust and Dismay with the UAW leaders and workers is not hatred. The workers need to start thinking for themselves and not let a few militants pull them around by the nose. If the UAW was a good source of labor they would not have lost over a million jobs in the last few decades. If the senior employees were making money for the D3 they would not be giving out $100k golden parachutes to get rid of them. The few UAW workers left should thank their lucky stars that they have not had strong management on top. Or they would ALL have been history after the 1998 strike. Or at least the ones that walked out. That was Wagoner's golden opportunity to get rid of the millstone and he buckled. Now they should be bankrupt if not for the largesse of the last President and Congress.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Great that you had a father/parents that encouraged you to pursue Bachelors. There are no doubt tens, hundreds of thousands of individuals who pursued Bachelors or Masters while working a full-time job.

    Wonder if/how UAW encouages its members to pursue degrees and "then" leave the UAW for another job that is probably not unionized. Does UAW regularly highlight those of its members who get a degree or other similar accomplishment?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Look at the map and you will see which state the UAW has brought to its knees. They were not satisfied with bankrupting the US Domestic Auto Industry. They wanted to take down a whole state to prove just how much power they wield.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27913794
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