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Comments
This is what I intended to post in the first place.
My mistake, sorry.
62's got a point. Better cool down my head for now. And after this let's get back to UAW related problems.
Of course, I'm still expecting valid answers from our dear Rocky.
Rockford is trying to assert that buying a foreign-made car makes a person a traitor or something. Umm...better pass on a lot of things because they're also foreign-made, rocky. Like I said earlier, rock, if the current system of law has said it's legal and all right to buy a new Mitsubishi, I'm going to do that.
Because looking to the Big 2 and a half for a new sporty sedan is a lot like looking to Dennis Rodman for good advice. I'd rather talk to the Red Cedar squirrel on top of Mt.Graham here in SE Arizona. I'd get further with his advice.
The UAW can't be at fault completely, only partly.
62vette, man, when I was saying those anti-union comments they were about SPEEA, because I've been there and lived that, I'll pass on that particular form of insanity any further. If some union dork decided that I should all of a sudden sit on the sidelines and forfeit my pay and strike, then I have to? Even if I don't agree and I liked the first 2000 Boeing offer to SPEEA?
Your answer, yep, man, ya have to. That's union logic, all for one and one for all. Doesn't matter if you can actually do your job, it doesn't matter with the union.
Unions seem to be for those who can't do, so they have someone else to say it for them. Like someone teaching a skill that never did it too well, but can still pass his or her Boards and get credentialed. Do as I say, not as I do. I've had a lifetime of fun with unions, if my hospital gets a sniff of unions I will be sure and voice my opinion that that would not be the brightest way to cook with Crisco imaginable.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
62, thanks for the reminder...
Given your position of some knowledge within GM, do you think the UAW is doing enough to help GM? If 50% of those eligible to retire take the offer, then that's a lot of high priced labor out of the costs, right? Do you think that if some of this expensive labor leaves, and the health care stuff is handled in 2010 (not sure how GM will fund VEBA with cash it doesn't have, however), then has enough been done? Or are GM's plans still too dependent upon a series of optimistic assumptions? Do you have a sense of how realistic the plans are? No spin please from the management, what is your realistic take? And thanks in advance.
You have said a very TRUE mouthful. In about 1985 when the oil business was in the toilet our contract came due and the company was demanding a reduction in wages by cutting our contractual OT. We were guaranteed 3 week shift of 10 hour days. One of the guys was so upset all he could talk about was going on strike. Ironically he was the one guy in the crew they could have fired and not been missed. You have to wonder of those that push for UAW strikes against the D3, how many are Really good workers, and how many are slackards??
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I don't know if it's still the case today, but back in the 90's when my FIL was a United Steel Workers union member, they used to provide him with a Sams Club membership. I always thought that was odd that they would pay for their workers to shop at one of the most anti-union corporations around to buy product that was probably 90% imported. That's a far cry from my memories of the late 70's with USW members bashing Datsuns and Toyotas with sledge hammers.
What do I think he should do? Get as many to leave the company as possible. Agree that all the old full timers left take a 20% pay cut for 2 years or until the loans are paid off. NOT permament but enough time that many will leave with retirement. They should also agree to paying their own health care w/o VEBA for the same time period. If they made these kind of concessions at least the PR would look much better for them.
GM's data in the restructuring plan shows they can make it. They just need to cut down the overhead cost. GM corp. does not lie. The guys at top are a pretty darn bunch of honest guys. Now some things have happened but they are usually some middle exec that was watching his own butt and trying to make his group look better.(i.e. playing a little loose with the finanacials) Not very often a guy is caught stealing for himself unlike other corps (banking).
From what I can tell the board did feel that GM is progressing well in restructuring. BUT how do you sell Hummer/Saab in this climate? Things have really changed from 2 months ago and I am sure GM is looking to cut even more.
If GM gets the money they asked for and the sales do not go below the worst case scenario then they should be able to make it. However if the country goes down the tube and there is no additional loans from the government then they are in trouble. Look at what is happening. The whole world seems to have stopped production.
For the past couple of months, we've been plowing the same ground. Perhaps we should let this discussion rest for a while.
If the UAW had done that in 2007 when GM was bleeding instead of going on strike, we would not be having these debates. I think the last 4 years of drama with Delphi and GM battling the UAW has left a real bad taste in the mouths of millions of hard working Americans & retirees that are not as well off as the average UAW worker or retiree. They see their tax dollars going to prop up UAW workers and they say what are we Chopped Liver?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
but where is the motivation for the engineers to provide a good design when they see janitors being paid like skilled labor???
the UAW pay had very little to do with engineers motivation. Sorry, we do not sit around and [non-permissible content removed] about other peoples pay. Oh we complain about the fact that our content is lower because of the higher overhead but did not effect motivation.
Magna Shutting Down NY Facility
That is commendable. I know when I worked for AT&T Alascom there was a constant battle between the trades represented by the Teamsters. The technicians were never happy that the warehousemen automatically got $1 less than we did. All they did was wheel a hand truck around all day with mail and packages. Never over 25 Lbs or they came in twos. Would not move furniture during the week only on weekends that was time and a half or double for Sunday. The pitch was, they were the only REAL Teamsters. Most of the Techs had at least 10 years experience and an FCC radio license as a job requirement. The guys in the warehouse had to be related to a Teamster boss to get the job. It was the best warehouse job in the State of Alaska. Yes it paid more than a UAW job. They did ride on out coat tails.
I don't know how GM and the other Detroit automakers can keep good engineers unless they get a substantially better package than the UAW lug nut assemblers. From what I heard on the radio a couple months ago the white collars were treated like dirt compared to the UAW employees.
http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/COLA/awidevelop.html
http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm#b00-0000
Rocky, you were doing quite well in TX. The average person in security in the USA makes $11.94 per hour. The following is the job description:
Guard, patrol, or monitor premises to prevent theft, violence, or infractions of rules.
http://www.bls.gov/oes/2007/may/oes339032.htm
From what I heard on the radio a couple months ago the white collars were treated like dirt compared to the UAW employees.
Treated like dirt? I would like to have heard that. I rarely felt like less than valuable. BUT in the last 3 years some have been let go for no reason other than the economy and the need to cut heads. GM has never really gone thru that. And when they are let go due to the crap you see out there you have to be walked out the door. Now if you voluntarily take a buy out the group gives you the on property party.
We always got competitive pay or better. GM always hired the best. Recently of course some are losing levels and some of the beni's but its tough all over. Perhaps that is the dirt you are talking about. Losing beni's while the hourly do not. Of course that will change. In the past the salaried always got whatever the hourly striked for. Going the other way now.
This fellow said he was a recent GM engineer retiree after 30 years. He felt he was being treated shabby with the health benefits while the UAW workers were not. I know our engineers all complained about our Union Package. It was far better from every aspect except they were home in Anchorage every night and we were stuck in the Arctic. So no one felt bad for them. One engineer did transfer over and became a technician. He was great because he did not mind climbing towers at 30 below zero. Young dumb and gungho...
Well, I disagree with that. If GM really hires the best then UAW made products wouldn't have such subpar finish. Can't blame it all on design and engineering.
Alas, even if they can blame it on design and engineering, it's because only crappy engineers are left in GM. The good ones left already in search for better pay, the pay sucked out by UAW wage package. That much is too obvious.
As for what to do with UAW, it's like a disease infected rotting apple tree. Salvage the best fruits while you still can, burn the rest along with the tree before it infects the other trees. I believe you said something similar about salvaging, though I'm not sure about the burning the tree part.
However I still question why the personal attacks from Fintail? I just don't get it.
Nevertheless, let's just end it with "we have different principles and let's leave it at that" and move on. Plus our last debate was off topic anyway. How about it?
No complaining no explaining.
The UAW as it was is history already. After this next 3 months, it should be even weaker. Sooner or later it will be a shadow of the past. History will show the unbalance was the death sentence signed on by all.
You make junk, you die.
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
I have been studying the GM board of directors and something has popped out loud and clear. Wagoner is a globalist of the first order. I have written him off in the past as really dumb for letting the UAW run over him in the strikes against GM. Maybe it was all part of his plan to destroy the UAW. By forcing a strike then giving into their ridiculous demands he is building public opinion against the UAW. His strong ties to China and other global groups lead me to believe he wants to move as much of GM out of the US as is possible without alienating the American car buyer. By getting the Feds to do the dirty work he accomplishes 3 goals. He gets rid of the Retiree legacy costs. He reduces his enormous debts. And reduces the UAW to an insignificant entity.
GM's biggest seller the 1500 Silverado has gone from 95% American content to 75% in just 3-4 years. I believe the 2500 and 3500 are all built outside the US borders.
Has Wagoner outsmarted the UAW leadership? Something to think about.
He says the $70/hour includes pensions of currently employed workers, plus pensions and benefits being paid to retirees and surviving spouses. If you divide that by all the hours worked in the time period under consideration, you get something like $70. This falls in Mark Twain’s category of statistics he called “damned lies.”
I didn’t check out Olbermann's math, but I’m sure MSNBC has some sort of fact checking process. Portraying autoworkers as greedy and overpaid is propaganda, pure and simple. Millions of Americans getting by on $10-15/hour would develop a lot of animosity to automotive workers hearing that figure, not to mention managers imagining having to carry a payroll like that.
Yes, the union has gotten generous pay for their members. Maybe more than they ought to get, by some standards, though not the millions paid to higher-ups.)
This is as ridiculous as calculating labor cost as a percentage of a vehicle’s cost. Wouldn’t the figure go up and down as fewer or more vehicles are made? Labor is a step variable cost, not an infinitely variable cost. You don’t add or subtract workers one-by-one according to demand.
As far as I know, and I’ve looked, the auto industry does not reveal the proportions of various categories of total cost of producing vehicles. I have a sneaking suspicion that, though legacy costs are higher than the transplants, things like logistics and warehousing cost far more than direct labor. My guess is that white collar and managerial costs are likely to dwarf the cost of hourly labor. We hear that parts cost different percentages of a total vehicle’s cost, but not what purchased parts, hid as inventory “assets,” make up in the overall consumers of cash. There’s a heck of a lot of waste in the system outside the cost of the workforce that builds cars.
I got this from the UAW’s website. Partisan of course, but Keith Olbermann is probably not being paid by the union to investigate claims of extravagant pay for autoworkers. You can watch the video of his report at:
MSNBC's Keith Olbermann on autoworker pay
Posted by Karen Wilhelm at 9:32 AM
They do have a process: Republican, bad; Democrat and unions, good.
>Center for Automotive Research’s figure of $28/hour, and adds $10 for benefits for a fully loaded $38/hour.
Who is Center for Automotive Research. But I suspect the $38 is more realistic for what the current worker is being paid in his benefits and pay and retirement costs.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The real issue is when the UAW was well aware that GM was going down under the burden of the healthcare legacy costs they went on strike 3 more times, further burying the company in red ink. Now they are pleading for Obama to save them from their own greed. I don't think he can.
How is that different from the part timers that the transplants hire?
"The important thing is to secure these loans," Gettelfinger said. "We're just in a major economic downturn," he said. "We're willing to take an extra [cut] here to make sure that they survive long term," he said.
Gettelfinger indicated that the union also expects the combination of concession and federal aid to prevent automakers from shifting more jobs out of the United States. "We support the creation of an oversight board to make sure the investment stays in this country. We would not support using taxpayer money out of the United States," he said.
http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1864085,00.html
Then I would like to know the reason for such cheap quality coming out of GM.
Was it bad engineering or bad assembly?
I know there is a third aspect, but I would like to hear it from you.
Interesting view point. It could very well be possible. In my religious stories, there is one where the demon KingRavana kidnaps the Lord Rama's wife Sita. However, he does not harm her. The reason why Ravana kidnapped Sita is described by the religious historians as "a means to be killed by the hands of the Lord, and thus attaining heaven".
Is this true for Rick Wagoner? Possible. Maybe he did not plan it this way, but the chips fell and he took the most advantage of it to move production away from UAW.
My 3500 crew cab is UAW built.
Buick Lucerne
Cadillac CTS
Cadillac DTS
Cadillac STS
Cadillac XLR
Chevrolet Cobalt
Chevrolet Corvette
Chevrolet Malibu/Malibu Hybrid
Chrysler Sebring
Dodge Avenger
Dodge Caliber
Dodge Viper
Ford Focus
Ford Mustang Ford Taurus
Lincoln MKS
Mazda 6
Mercury Sable
Mitsubishi Eclipse
Mitsubishi Galant
Pontiac G5
Pontiac G6
Pontiac Solstice
Pontiac Vibe
Saturn Aura/Aura Hybrid
Saturn Sky
Toyota Corolla*
UAW PICKUPS
Chevrolet Colorado
Dodge Dakota
Dodge Ram Pickup*
Ford Explorer Sport Trac
Ford F-Series*
Ford Ranger GMC Canyon
Isuzu i-Series
Lincoln Mark LT
Mazda B-series
Mitsubishi Raider
Toyota Tacoma*
UAW SUVs/CUVs
Buick Enclave
Cadillac Escalade
Cadillac Escalade ESV
Cadillac SRX
Chevrolet Suburban*
Chevrolet Tahoe/
Tahoe Hybrid
Chrysler Aspen
Dodge Durango
Dodge Nitro
Ford Escape/Escape Hybrid
Ford Expedition
Ford Explorer
Ford Taurus X
GMC Acadia
GMC Yukon/Yukon Hybrid GMC Yukon Denali
Hummer H1
Hummer H2
Hummer H3
Jeep Commander
Jeep Compass
Jeep Grand Cherokee
Jeep Liberty
Jeep Patriot
Jeep Wrangler
Lincoln Navigator
Mazda Tribute/Tribute Hybrid
Mercury Mariner/Mariner Hybrid
Mercury Mountaineer
Mitsubishi Endeavor
Saturn Outlook
UAW VANS
Ford E-series
Chevrolet Express Chevrolet Uplander
GMC Savana
CAW CARS
Buick Lacrosse
Chevrolet Impala
Chrysler 300
Dodge Challenger
Dodge Charger Ford Crown Victoria
Lincoln Town Car
Mercury Grand Marquis
Pontiac Grand Prix
CAW SUVs/CUVs
Chevrolet Equinox
Chrysler Pacifica
Dodge Magnum
Ford Edge Lincoln MKX
Pontiac Torrent
Suzuki XL7
UAW/CAW PICKUPS
Chevrolet Silverado* GMC Sierra*
UAW/CAW Vans
Chrysler Town & Country Dodge Caravan
IUE SUVs/CUVs
Chevrolet TrailBlazer
GMC Envoy
GMC Envoy Denali Isuzu Ascender
Saab 9-7X
*Vehicles marked with an asterisk are produced in more than one country, but all models made in the United States are assembled by UAW members.
How is that different from the part timers that the transplants hire?
Well, a UNION is supposed to be a team of people, right? So one class of them won't change their salaries but they let the new ones come in at a much lower rate, correct? And a UNION is supposed to help protect jobs, correct? So on the one hand if the UNION gets higher wages that's great for me as a UNION employee. But if the jobs all start disappearing then perhaps there's a message. Perhaps we are overpaid vs. the market. Perhaps our high wages are driving labor out of the country. So we can choose to compromise a bit to preserve our UNION jobs, plus the jobs of the dealers, salesmen, parts suppliers, etc., who all depend upon US sales. Or we can be selfish and stand ground with our own pals. We can strike our ailing employer in 2007 where it hurts the most - the best new car we've made in many years! New hires can take less. Those laid off can take less. But if I keep my job, doggone it, I'm going to keep my current salary and to heck with everybody else who is less fortunate! And then I can scream that it's currency manipulation that caused all the problems!
OTOH, if I'm hired as a part time employee, I know a few things coming in:
- my job is not permanent
- I'm going to be the first to let go
- I probably don't have many benefits
- I can choose to take a part time position or not. If I take it I know what I'm getting into.
Yes, the union has gotten generous pay for their members. Maybe more than they ought to get, by some standards, though not the millions paid to higher-ups.) "
MSNBC might be "dead on" for all I know. The figures of $73 hourly have only come into the lime light fairly recently, and could well be over blown.
The thing that irked me personally was the $28+ hourly wage for the skills or lack of skills to accomplish their UAW tasks. As stated before, I was responsible for maintaining MILLIONS of dollars of equipment for hundreds of customers, including Ford Hapeville plant and warehouses. Lockheed, banks, trucking firms. railroads, and so forth. Wore a suit everyday. Got called out at night, Dealt with Doctors, Lawyers and Indian Chiefs, and was continuously getting more education on various products. I was paid above average for the industry, yet considerably less than a lug nut UAW guy.
The wife got her BSRN degree after many years of schooling, got a job at a local hospital, and after 18 years and countless hours of continued education and receiving the highest raises available, and dealing with life and death every working day, finally reached the wage scale of the lug nut guy. After 20 years, she finally surpassed them.
Neither she nor I have anywhere near the retirement pay or bennefits of the lug nut guy.
An now Fiddlefinger and company don't want to "Get Real" to keep their jobs? Shame on them!
How much arrogance or stupidity does it take to watch a huge % of your co-workers go away and yet still hang on to old ideas and greed?
He says the $70/hour includes pensions of currently employed workers, plus pensions and benefits being paid to retirees and surviving spouses. If you divide that by all the hours worked in the time period under consideration, you get something like $70. This falls in Mark Twain’s category of statistics he called “damned lies.”
#1 I will assume cheap quality means the level of content and not things gone wrong. Things gone wrong, as I have posted, is now equal or better than the industry at GM. In fact other than a few outliers (Lexus at top and Land rover at bottom) both initial quality and long term reliability are about even. Yes 15 years ago the GM structure allowed designs to be thrown over the wall to the plants for them to do the best they could. But 10 years ago the design engineers started to be required to spend the first year of a new cars production in the plant fixing problems. That really caused a huge quality improvement. And I gotta tell you that many quality problems were supplier related. When that chrome came off the emblem it was not GM's fault. When the power steering pump blew it was something the supplier did wrong. The specs on that emblem are little different today than then. What really changed is that the imports forced the suppliers to change their procedures to improve their quality.
As far as the "cheap plastic" and lack of content. GM has been losing market share for many years. With that loss in market share you do not lose the legacy cost as fast. Those 50% market share workers from the 70's are still there. You gotta pay there retirement costs. So you need to cut elsewhere. So you cut content. As I have said I sat in meetings where I had to decide which 3 items my vehicle would excel the competition, the 5 that would be even and the rest would be sub par. And that top 3 better not be too expensive.
GM always hired the top 10% of each class. At least that was the way it was 30 years ago when I got hired. And the top 10% did not mean only grade point. They hired the SAE presidents and those who had a bit of car sense. Of course there has not been to much hiring in the last 20 years.
Now I could sit here and blame the UAW for the past and would probably be 70% right but the past is gone. Now we have to reduce the cost to at least competitive levels and I see in 5 years that GM will be the low cost US producer. BUT then again most likely Toyota and the others will just reduce their hourly rate to meet.
Wagoner has not moved much production of US bound vehicles outside of the US UAW. The Canadian plants have been there well before he took over anything. The Mexican plants opened over 15 years ago. This all happened before he was in charge. What he has done in the last 10 years is go global. GM has plants all over the world building vehicles for their home markets and some export. Yes the low volume niche G8 is imported (was to be built in Oshawa but that will most likely not happen). Also the Aveo but everyone imports the sub compacts due to keeping the cost down. But overall the only reason the UAW work force has lost members is due to market share losses and I doubt that was the plan to reduce the workforce.
As far as the "cheap plastic" and lack of content. GM has been losing market share for many years. With that loss in market share you do not lose the legacy cost as fast. Those 50% market share workers from the 70's are still there. You gotta pay there retirement costs. So you need to cut elsewhere. So you cut content.
I think you explain your first statement with the other. The D3 have beat down the suppliers to be competitive and content quality has suffered. Where I don't agree is with your assertion that GM has to pay the Legacy costs at the expense of content. That was a decision made in contracts long ago. They could have set their foot down and said we just cannot afford to keep paying health care to the retirees. Or do you think screwing the customer is a better option than cutting the legacy costs? The legacy costs cutting into the content is what lost GM the market share. GM clearly put the cart ahead of the horse. So now everyone loses, tax payer, consumer, GM stockholders and the UAW retirees.
I have said this before. The Union I belonged to made the decision a LONG time ago to dump the health care cost back onto the retiree. It was that or bankrupt the Pension fund. If that means the individual works longer before retirement so be it. I ended up working 15 years longer in the Arctic than I had planned on.
No, actually supplier quality has greatly improved since the imports started coming over here 20 years ago. At first the japanese brought over the parts from overseas and then they brought their own suppliers here. The suppliers already here had to improve their quality while decreasing cost. Pretty much all the suppliers that the domestics use also supply to the imports. It worked for 15 years or so but then access to China suppliers put our US suppliers in trouble. Many were able to keep up but the last year has really put many out.
I would say your premise that content quality from the suppliers has gone down is completely incorrect. It has only gone way up. If not the vehicles that used their parts would not have increased in quality which I hope we can all agree has happened.
That is right. They could have put their foot down long ago. But they did not. So here we are today.
I was going by your comment that chrome peeling off was more supplier related. What would you consider cheap content? I realize that would not reflect on the UAW. I think the suppliers that are stuck with UAW labor may cut corners. The biggest issue I would see with UAW labor is keeping abreast with the non union competitors wages. That and not running the machines at Delphi to match the faster employees. You can't keep up we get someone that can. Why match the lowest common denominator?
That type of quality concern is pretty much gone but can still happen. The chrome ring on my Enclaves taillight came off. Was that GM's fault? No a source did something wrong. But this type of issue is very rare now for the reasons I said.
Cheap content is the hard plastic vs. soft debate for one. It is the removal of ABS as standard at the same time the imports were finally making it standard (mistake on GM's part). It is not having a grab handle on the drivers door ceiling. It is cheaper mouse fur headliners.
But in the last 5 years we have seen Toyota doing the same thing in cheapening their interiors while Lutz has pushed for GM to put more money into their interiors.
GM did have a plan to take away the health care cost a year ago from the retirees. Unfortunately the meltdown screwed that up.
Come on Kipk....are you suggesting no one should make more than you? We live in a country that allows us to work for what ever we think we are worth. Don't complain because you did not go out and hussel up a UAW job. This crying a how unfair it is you get paid less and union people have it so easy and get over paid. Heck, if a lug nut man has made it so he has a great retirement package and really good pay, I would say he has a pretty darn good head on his shoulders. Are you not just as smart as the lug nut man?
Buy the way the UAW is not $ 73. an hour.....a big stretch on someone's imagination, it's a neat way to stir up dung. Why not grow up and quit crying about why you have not got a better paying job!!!!!!!!!!
To be honest it sounds greedy that so many want to lower someone's else's wages.
farout
You can't bring the wages of a poor man up, by lowering a higher paid person. If you want a better paying job go out and hustle up a better job. If you want to avoid unions that is your choice.
It was not much of an issue until the UAW went begging to Congress with the D3 for tax dollars. My Union job paid a quite a bit more than UAW. But when times were hard we took a cut in pay. When it got better we went back up. The UAW up until now has refused to cut the existing workforces pay or the legacy costs that are making the D3 unprofitable.
So the real issue is not that someone is making a given wage. It is that the UAW is willing to bankrupt the Domestic auto industry before they will give anything up. And the UAW puts out a lot of dung also. They keep saying they gave. What the UAW should say is we sacrificed future workers to maintain our current lifestyle.