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2. NOBODY is saying it's $73/hr pay. It's $73/hr "LABOR COST", which includes all costs associated with employees, including pensions, healthcare, etc.
3. Same can apply to UAW people - if they end up on the street because company goes bust, don't complain but hussle up and get equally paying job. Ohhh - not there anymore? Well, just as you said.
As many said before - we din't really care how much UAW make until their bosses came to the Hill and started demanding (not even asking - they DEMANDED) help and money FROM US, the rest of the taxpayers. We scream at bank CEOs because they got bonuses and failed, we hate AIG because it is still stealing our money - we look at D3 and say the same: want our money, here is what you got to do. Don't like it? Find another sugar daddy.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
And if you're self employed, so be it. Get all you can at the risk of not being in business. However when you price your product so that it is either too costly or not profitable you have to adjust.
No, this country does not allow you to work for whatever you're worth, they we simply have the opportunity to pursue a career that will indeed pay us what we're worth. Unless you consider your two options that 1) you either get what you think you're worth or 2) you won't work, chances are you will work for less or not work. Most people settle for a lot less than they think they are worth.
I'll do a lot better than a lug nut man. However when these lug nut men lose their jobs and pensions because there is no D3 then I'll not have a soft shoulder for them to cry on. It's hard to have compassion for hard liners.
The UAW won't accept further concessions on retiree health care costs unless GM creditors make substantial sacrifices to reduce GM's crushing debt burden, said a source familiar with the union's position.
Only eight days remain until GM and Chrysler LLC must file viability plans .
Regards,
OW
That they refuse to accept reduced retirement healthcare benefits unless GM's creditors reduce the amount of debt GM is expected to pay them back. Did I read that right? Isn't that, umm...coercion? It's always gotta be someone else that sacrifices, huh?
I don't know about y'all but I find that demand ludicrous. The creditors deserve full payment back for their goods and services. The UAW workers need to accept less retirement healthcare benefits and they best not wait too long to accept it.
That be truth, gentlemen.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Thanks 62. That was the 3rd aspect I was alluding to.
>As far as the "cheap plastic" and lack of content.
When I was not in the US, I always dreamt (fantasized) of the Corvette, and how sitting in it feels like. When I finally moved to the US, you can imagine my disappointment (and still is) when I actually sat in one. The dash was cheaper than my Suzuki Alto overseas. I could not dread looking at such crap all the time I was in the car. I could not believe that the "flagship" of the Chevy brand and the "heartbeat of America" was such crap. Still can't.
Yes, but not because it’s made in India. The Alto has been built to meet tough targets on weight and price, so although the build quality is good, with a decent standard of panel fit and finish in the cabin, some of the plastics used are cheap, hard and shiny. By the standards of the cars it’s aimed at, like the Hyundai i10, it’s acceptable if not class-leading.
It’s clear where money has been saved; there are pop-out rear windows, rather than winders, and the doors feel flimsy. And although it’s very compact at just 3565mm, it’s no packaging masterpiece. You’ll get four grown adults in, but rear head and legroom are cramped and the boot is tiny at just 129 litres; the i10 manages to hold 100 more. Everyone gets a big cupholder though, and the instruments and controls are clear and logically laid out.
http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Drives/Search-Results/First-drives/Suzuki-Alto-2008- -CAR-review/?content-block=1
The only real negative points are inside the cabin – in here the 'Vette just doesn't feel like it's been built for track work. If you’re above average height then a helmet will mean no headroom. The big leather seats aren't particularly supportive, and the inertia reel belt needs to be replaced by a harness, considering the thrust on tap.
http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Drives/Search-Results/First-drives/Corvette-ZR1-200- 8-CAR-review/?content-block=1
The creditors deserve full payment back for their goods and services.
That be truth, gentlemen.
Ahhh the new Feudalism. Soon we can all work for minimum wages and no health benefits just so that we can buy cheaper throw away goods every year. What fun it will be to have little or no job security and be completely beholden to the vicissitudes of the labor market and as skilled labor is replaced by robots we can watch as our shattered pensions are hoovered up by rapacious landlords or banks, only recently propped up off the federal dole.
They came first for the family farmers, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a farmer member;
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
And then they came for the small business owner, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a small business owner;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up. Although in retrospect, there wasn't much to get from me either.
Minimal skills does not equal above average wages.
Selective outrage is always bemusing, as is that expressed by WE glibertarian sycophants. Nary a peep during the travesties of the last eight years, unless it was to express that the issue was one WE didn't understand and hadn't thought about. But now, WE could express words but they'd be unprintable. Just remarkable. But what else would one expect from a pseudo economist?
So, why don't you build your own car? It only takes them a few hours.
If I could not do a better job than the UAW workers I would take up a different line of work. And I have built several cars and dune buggies from a pile of parts. Not rocket science. I lost interest after I got out of high school. I could see there was not much future in it. By the time this 4 years is up there will be NO domestic auto industry. No UAW auto workers. We will be getting ship loads of mandated EVs from India and China. Think CFL bulbs if you don't believe this Congress will do it.
They will need to rename the UAW to United BlackJack Associated Dealers. UBAD
What selective outrage? :confuse: Didn't I just list all of your favorite pointers? Every time any one says anything about conditions to D3/UAW bailout you deflect with "but ... AIG, banks, etc.". So I say - yes, those, too. Where exactly is that selectiveness?
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Not to mention, their job is likely be less expensive and better done, their engineers will likely hand better design than those employed by D3, and their executives will likely make better decisions regarding content of the product.
Until those people disapear, I have no reason to put it together myself.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Hmm, might be fun? A kit car GT40? But if I don't want to my choice is to buy a car that was made with cheap labor (Korea?) or to wait for really cheap labor $1-$2/hr (China). And yes they will be grateful :P
(I also prefer to vacation in the Caribbean or Mexico because the cost is low, and the service is much better - with the workers being appreciative to have a job).
The UAW has and is in trouble because the reality is that people around the world are willing to build cars for substantially less money.
We know that the working man in Indiana can build wonderful vehicles without those UAW constraints. I have not read any articles that lead me to believe they are quitting Toyota or Honda to take a UAW job. So the bonds of UAW slavery have been broken in Indiana. How long will it take for Michigan to join in with the happy workforce building the vehicles Americans want to own?
I wonder what's going to happen with all the 2008 and 2009 vehicles that are gas suckers and no one wants. They will be the ones that might be used to "trade in a clunker" for $ 10,000. Even at that I wouldnt want one.
Our world is in serious financial condition. Borrowing money to spend out wayout is stupid. Unless this bail out helps the people who work and depend on a job to pay for housing, cars, and food, etc. there is no hope. Sending money to the banks who hord it and not loan it to working people sure screwed everyone.
The best answer to the automotive crisis is drive you vehicle as long as pratcical, pay off your debts, and become frugal, and don't go into debt except for a house and vehicle.
farout
That's the way I try to do it. I keep a $0 credit card balance and a mortgage that is lower than most people's rent. I'm out of the auto market for a while as I just bought a new car two Novembers ago. If I am to buy another car, it'll be another beater car for cash if my '88 Park Ave suffers a catastrophic mechanical failure or is a victim of a serious accident.
I still make some mistakes, like buying a Jeep Liberty Diesel. But now we have a 07 Chrysler AWD Pacifica Touring, best vehicle we have ever owned in 40 years of marriage with my soul mate.
farout
On a personal level you indeed have the right idea about personal finances, BUT:
The best answer to the automotive crisis is drive you vehicle as long as pratcical, pay off your debts, and become frugal, and don't go into debt except for a house and vehicle.
Unfortunately this type of practice, especially if it went across all consumer lines would send a country like ours into a depression.
It's a "catch 22" situation where people like you (and me) need to be aware of what's going on and prepare, but for the country to prosper at this point people need to spend. It's the price we pay for the lifestyle we've lived.
Borrowing money to spend out wayout is stupid. Unless this bail out helps the people who work and depend on a job to pay for housing, cars, and food, etc. there is no hope
The stimulus is a borrowing package. It has to be paid back by the future generation.
But you should know there is hope, and it's not in this economy.
Unfortunately this type of practice, especially if it went across all consumer lines would send a country like ours into a depression.
It's a "catch 22" situation where people like you (and me) need to be aware of what's going on and prepare, but for the country to prosper at this point people need to spend. It's the price we pay for the lifestyle we've lived.
I'm not sure that I agree that "it's the price we pay for the lifestyle we've lived". If that's really the way it is - that people need to buy a bunch of things they don't need to lift us out of this recession and to keep the economy humming - then we are indeed in deep s***.
The 2 cars I drive daily are 16 and 23 years old respectively. I may be looking later this year for a (used) replacement, but only when I get done with the kitchen renovation we've been doing. My newest TV set is 8? years old - no it's not digital ready, but I have no plans to buy something soon.
I guess I'm more in agreement with farout right now. I'm not going to buy anything I really don't have to.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29134338/?GT1=43001
Unions have out lived their purpose??? The UAW needs to lok into this!!!
Great. And you wonder why you people are being electorally wiped out at the polls? The Republican Party and the Libertarians who are only now beginning to realize that they LONG ago tied themselves to the Republican wheel and it's too late to escape now. Hence, are effectively making themselves the minority party for the next 20 years.
It will be at least 2030 before your Party, or what's left of it, manages to win a presidential election again. And it'll probably be 2020 before you control the Congress again.
Ask the Reagan Democrats. They've left your Party in droves. As has the entire center of this country.
Enjoy the wilderness. Vote for letting 2/3 of the auto industry go into bankruptcy? Real brilliant! Are you even aware how many city's economies, across the country in places from California to Florida, are reliant on the American auto industry? The loss of jobs and closure of car dealerships alone, if the Republicans in Congress are actually dumb enough to vote against this, will guarantee the ouster of at least another 1/3 of them in 2010.
Do you guys just enjoy losing or what? And get some kind of macabre, disinterested satisfaction in watching not only people suffer while you disinterestedly put on your worst Ayn Rand impressions or are you actually ROOTING FOR a depression at this point?
Don't think we can reach 10% unemployment? Drive the American auto industry out of business. I guarantee you we'll break 8% without a sweat. And that's assuming a model where Ford DOESN'T go bankrupt.
So it must be nice to live in fantasy, libertarian realm, but the rest of us have to live in the REAL world, where the failure of REAL industries have real consequences. I pray none of you ever do.
If you drive the streets of France you will note that most people drive cars manufactured by 1 of 3 producers; Renault, Citroen and Peugeot. All in all, nearly 7-8 in 10 cars on the roads are produced by those three. Apparently the French care more about the workers in their country than we do. Oh well. Have fun working at Walmart.
I have never understood why folks who think of themselves as libertarians or free marketers are so hostile to the right of parties to reach binding agreements. Why shouldn't a union and an employer sign a binding agreement?
Or...wait -- do you think unions/UAW are to blame for the current economic slump?
No Problem, just don't ask me to subsidize your agreement with my tax dollars. I think it has been made perfectly clear that people would buy D3 autos that are equal to or better than the competition. Sadly the D3 has been sloppy over the last 30 years and the competition has passed them by. As far as France, they have been screwed up since before we became a Nation.
40% of French employees are civil servants, but most of them haven't been trained in their jobs , so they are completely flummoxed when presented with non-French paperwork.
You like the way the French run their country, I would say you should move there with all the Hollywood types that said they would then back tracked. Their problems make ours seem insignificant. I would say they lead US in unemployment. So buying French cars makes little difference.
do you think unions/UAW are to blame for the current economic slump?
I think you have asked that question a dozen times and gotten the same answer. They are not the cause of the current mess. It was easy credit pushed by the likes of Chris Dodd and Barney Frank. That caused the meltdown. The legacy costs at GM and higher than average wages have been a big part of the D3 meltdown. So buy a garage full of Caddies and bail them out. Notice the Stimulus has no real hope for the D3 that I could find.
No reason why not.
However, if the agreement is stupid and it hobbles the employer, then the employer should be allowed to fail without taxpayer bailouts.
And that is what they said about the democratic party 8 years ago. Its a cycle.
Notice the Stimulus has no real hope for the D3 that I could find.
U.S. economic stimulus legislation includes a provision removing a potentially staggering tax liability associated with the bailout of General Motors Corp (GM.N), a senator said on Wednesday.
Debbie Stabenow of Michigan said the unintended consequence of the government's $13.4 billion bailout of GM in December could have resulted in a tax hit of up to $10 billion.
Stabenow told reporters language resolving the issue was in the bill.
also:
The final legislation does includes a $300 million provision for the government to buy more fuel efficient cars, a plan championed by President Barack Obama.
The plan also includes money for battery research and development as part of efforts to help the industry produce more efficient hybrids and launch plug-in electric vehicles next decade.
Looks like the bondholders will force C11. But not to worry! What's an extra $100B among friends, RIGHT?
Please! Make 2nd rate products, go to C11. Simple.
Regards,
OW
Coming to the bank near you!
Regards,
OW
Exactly, well put. When the costs of all the bailouts hit the credit markets and the rates resemble 1980, Republicans will rule again. Circle of life.
Regards,
Ow
Feb. 8 (Bloomberg) -- General Motors Corp. executives, advisers, bondholders and union officials plan to meet this week in Detroit to negotiate the government-ordered debt restructuring of the automaker, two people close to the talks said.
The discussions, which are said to include all global debt holders, follow previous informal talks as part of the Detroit automaker’s plan to reduce $27.5 billion in unsecured debt to about $9.2 billion by swapping for equity, the people said. They asked not to be named because the meetings, scheduled for tomorrow and Feb. 10, are private.
GM is under pressure to show progress in negotiations with bondholders and the United Auto Workers ahead of a Feb. 17 status report to the U.S. Treasury as part of an agreement to keep $13.4 billion in loans the automaker needs to stay out of bankruptcy. GM has pledged to reduce dealers and brands.
“As we continue our restructuring and work toward meeting the terms of the term loans, GM is providing certain necessary information to key stakeholders’ advisers so they can appropriately evaluate the decisions they will have to make,” GM spokeswoman Renee Rashid-Merem said.
“Given the confidential nature of those discussions, we won’t discuss any specifics.”
UAW spokesman Roger Kerson didn’t immediately return a phone call seeking comment.
‘Serious Blow’
Pacific Investments Management Co., manager of the world’s biggest bond fund, resigned from the bondholder committee last month, Bill Gross, Pimco’s co-chief investment officer, said Jan. 20. The defection of Pimco was a “serious blow” to GM’s exchange offer, KDP Investment Advisors Inc. said at the time.
The 10-member bondholder committee includes San Mateo, California based Franklin Resources Inc. and Fidelity Investments of Boston, a person with knowledge of the situation said last month.
If GM can’t convince the bondholders and UAW to agree to new terms, the government could force GM to return the loans or convert them into funding for a government-backed bankruptcy. GM has said a bankruptcy may lead to liquidation because it would further erode sales, which fell 49 percent in its home market in January.
GM also is required to reduce UAW labor costs to close to parity with foreign automakers with operations in the U.S., such as Toyota Motor Corp. and in a separate equity swap, reduce obligations to a union-retiree health-care fund by 50 percent to $10.2 billion.
UAW President Ron Gettelfinger has said he is willing to make concessions if other stakeholders, including bondholders and GM executives also make concessions.
Regards,
OW
I am sure I would believe anything she said. Did she give any specifics? And how would giving them an extension on taxes really help when they are bleeding billions per month?
I read the part about the $300-$600 Million EV carrot. Again that is leveled at buying hybrids and golf carts for use by the Feds. They demonstrated it with Hillary driving a golf cart. So it should give the golf cart business a boost. Battery R&D was already covered in the 2007 Energy bill with that $25 billion that GM is trying to grab onto.
I don't see the government buying hybrids in the near future. Ford is going to have a very limited supply with plenty of customers and the Volt is not going to be making any money no matter how many Congress buys. They won't dare buy Toyota or Honda hybrids if they are not UAW made.
This is the tax issue that is caused by the restructuring. GM would have owed $7 billion. Not some kind of extension.
http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D969NFV81.htm
General Motors Corp. would receive a tax break in the $790 billion stimulus bill after the automaker argued its government-led restructuring would unintentionally lead to at least $7 billion in tax liabilities.
"Just based on the conversations I've had, the reports that I've seen, what's going to be clear is that everybody is going to have to put some skin in the game. Management, shareholders, creditors, dealers, workers. In order to make this thing work, everybody is going to have to make some short-term sacrifices in order to see some long-term benefit," Obama said.
This is a guy that tossed his VP and Grandma under the bus. Do you think for a second he gives a rats patooty about the handful of UAW workers that think they deserve more than anyone else in the industry? Gettlefinger better get his finger out of his nose and make some HUGE concessions before next Tuesday or it is C11 for GM.
The country will come out of the recession sooner without all the wasted pork. This whole stimulus is to keep the people reaching for the carrot. You did see the jokers they planted at the Indiana speech. There are people that want a new kitchen from Obama and higher pay in their entry level jobs. Obama probably does not even know the autoworkers have a Union.
Well I'm in agreement with you. basically to keep things in balance those that wasted money before and kept the economy going by buying more than they can afford need to keep doing that. Those that have always been frugal are doing the right thing, but this economy does not need for everyone to wise up right now and stop spending.
It will take time to have a balanced economy and become a nation of producers and savers. If everyone starts now though, there will be a massive loss of jobs and income and then people won't be able to save.
Obama probably does not even know the autoworkers have a Union.
I now you like to overstate your ideas but come on....
Maybe a little. There are posters here that think the sun rises with the UAW. I got news for them. The UAW is small potatoes in the scope of this country. What are they down to at GM 62k workers. The UAW better hope that Ford survives or they will be relegated to the "Once Was" Unions in America. These statements in your article by Obama should set the record straight for the UAW boosters that think Obama will force US to buy American.
"Buy American" provisions: He raised some red flags against protectionist sentiments, which can "worsen the economic prospects for all countries. You start getting into a downward protectionist spiral that is very dangerous."
The Korean Confederation of Labor Unions wants to create a global union to organize all workers at the Hyundai-Kia Group. According to Ward’s Hyundai-Kia has plants in the US, China, Czech Republic, India, Slovakia and Turkey. The US workers are the only ones not represented by a union and the KCLU wants to work with the UAW to help organize them.
Echoing several others - I don't care as long as my money isn't used. I didn't care what GM spent it's money on, what it paid it's workers; until they started doing it with my tax $. I guess you don't understand the difference? I didn't care about the banks compensation either, until they took my tax $; now I care. In both cases, and any future cases I don't want my tax $ going to those who did not manage properly - for whatever reason.
My point is that unions have to realize that as long as there are non-union workers/organizations willing to make a similar product at a lower cost, the union is in trouble. The union company had better make a better product in some way, to justify its companies' higher costs.
They don't need UAW. All they need is common sense to call 911.
It's like a traffic jam with not apparent reason.
Regards,
OW
I fail to understand you. Are you not in support restructuring the companies so that they can be profitable? This is not a liquidation bankruptcy we are talking about.
Regards,
OW