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ROTFLMAO! Brian Bosworth continues to haunt Seattleites, even when the dude's outta da pic-cha! What a dorky dude.
dallasdude...so you agree with rockford that here in the U.S., even away from rock's sweet home Michigan, that the healthcare industry is going to start laying off domestic workers and import eastern Indians and Mexicans and Italians...and hire them on in our American hospitals?
I know we can get fired and laid off right now, because of performance issues, attendance, etc., but you two really think that U.S. hospitals are going to follow suit with the rest of American businesses and replace us with lesser-paid foreigners?
dallasdude...listen to yourself speaking!
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Stop the nonsense. 330 million people INCLUDES my cousin's 3 MONTH OLD baby. She ain't gonna be working for awhile. It also includes my 84 yr old neighbor, who is in a nursing home suffering from dementia. I doubt he's employable either.
According to the bureau of labor statistics, there are 154,650,000 people in our civilian work force. 2 million lost jobs would be approx. 1.3% of the total workforce. Our current unemployment rate is 7.6%. Add 1.3% to that and you get 8.9%!!!!
Now, add in lost jobs from other sectors, and does 10% look more plausible???
Even 8.9% is a far cry from 7-8%
iluv, how about those going abroad (including to your next door neighbor, Mexico) to get those healthcare services because they are cheaper. I do realize this is really just a cottage industry right now, but if it blossoms, could this not threaten your job? ( BTW, I think it would be bad policy to replace qualified workers w/ immigrants just because they would work cheaper)
This problem is so huge, I doubt we will all stop feeling the effects for a long, long time. That is also why UAW will never again have an edge. The supply of autos new and used is huge, just like oil and it's derivatives are piling higher and the bottom in equities is not reached nor any of the aforementioned markets...particularly the autos.
Tuesday is a mere blip toward more financial aid to all of the leveraged parties. Simple. Save 'em or they die on their own.
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
link title
(SIGH) I wonder if this has anything to do with them agreeing to 50 cents on the dollar for VEBA, then asking debtors to take 30. Now, are they slinking back to the union looking for more??? :sick:
I've got a headache.
No, these types of things are going to continue to happen(people going to Mexico for treatment), but, and it's a big but, the standard admittants to our rural critical access hospital will keep coming. Know why? Because they need to, that's why. The people going across the border for cheaper medical/surgical/dental will continue as has been happening and probably increase.
But what we offer locals here in rural SE Arizona is outpatient EKG's, ABG's, radiology services, lab draws, etc., without having to drive to Safford(45 miles NE), Benson(35 miles west), Tucson(80 miles NW), etc. And, of course, if they should suffer a heart attack or cut themself or OD, we have a 24/7 ER for them to get helichoptered to or ambulanced to or car-driven to in emergencies. My point is all the things we offer don't really apply to the people going across the border for cheaper services. They're going there to save money on surgical procedures that are more detailed and usually involve more hospital stay time. Mexico will continue to get those wanting to save money there.
And as far as imports coming in for less and replacing us, as long as our small rural hospital is making a profit(and ours is)and a decent profit(don't have the numbers but after a benefits sign-up meeting yesterday my wife and I found out from our new benefits outfit that our hospital has the best benefits in southern Arizona to offer their employees). Our presenter knows those types of things as he works in that benefits field and talks to hospital employees throughout the So-AZ region. Yes, we liked that information so much that I added vision benefits to my existing medical and dental plan, and added some life insurance, and some Aflac accident insurance to boot. No kidding, we save so much on our medical insurance that we can afford to splurge on some extras.
But cooter, no, I can't sit here in my den on my computer and tell you that my wife and I have it made in the shade from our jobs, for several years. But out-sourcing our local hospital jobs to those outside our nation has a very remote chance of happening.
We, however, of course, can be canned from our jobs and replaced by other American employee new-hires for several reasons, obviously. And from other countries. Come to think of it, about 6 months ago our hospital recruited some lab employees from the Phillippines. But that was because we couldn't find anyone else to fill the jobs.
That's why I keep hammering on the idea for UAW workers to start putting their Trade Act and otherwise healthcare re-training packages together, and right now, BTW. I'm not just mentioning this for my health, don't cha know. :shades:
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
At this point I would say the UAW retirees are out of luck on keeping company paid health care. GM is broke and the tax payers do not want to subsidize a losing proposition. Obama made it clear that ALL the parties associated with the auto industry had to give some skin. So that means the retirees are in the mix. I say welcome to reality. I paid my own health care until Medicare kicked in after retirement.
Maybe the UAW should strike and just bring on GM liquidation a lot quicker. That is just about how smart Fiddlefinger appears to me.
In reality how much more skill does it take to assemble parts on a car than it does to make sure you charge for every thing at checkout. The big issue is Walmart is still making a reasonable profit and not laying off people. The UAW has squeezed every bit of life from the D3 and left you as a GM owner wondering if you will have a place to take your car for service. 20 years from now you will be trying to decide if you want Hyundai, Toyota or Mercedes.
You do give them good advice. Too bad most will go on in their little insulated world until it is too late. They will be at an Obama rally asking for free housing and a car. Even in places like Michigan where unemployment is at its highest 90 out of 100 workers have a job. That means they are able to survive. Many countries would be happy to have as low of an unemployment rate as the USA. Laid off UAW workers that want to work may have to relocate to where there is a friendly attitude toward business. That is not the case with Michigan.
He is only 14 but already is helping people find new Kia's with his online "Auto Consulting" business. The kid's a walking Kia encyclopedia, talking with Kia dealers and even Kia Motors America executives. I've invited him here but told him to be prepared to put in the time investment...we are not short on opinions here!
So far I don't see him. But that Manistee, MI, area buys the Kia's and not the Hyundai's, and they buy lots of them. The UAW and GM, Ford and Chrysler don't have many fans in that particular neck of Michigan. Wonder why?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
We have 150,000,000 in the labor force, so its half or about 15 million.
All it takes is for GM to go bust. They directly employ 350,000 people and then there are at least another 1M suppliers and salespeople around the country. Just the defaults alone will wipe out another 100 banks and businesses and then the unemployment will bankrupt several states. Then you have another 1M foreclosures which will cascade the bank failures and the destruction of the pension program would put a massive cash drain on the system as a million GM retirees scramble for cash.
The economy is always about jobs. Regardless of the method of computation, the unemployment rate is growing dramatically. As the effects of layoffs and deleveraging continue to ripple throughout the economy, expect to see an official unemployment rate of over 10% in 2009.
http://seekingalpha.com/article/117296-true-unemployment-rate-is-not-reflected-i- n-government-numbers
The healthcare industry may be facing UAW cutbacks soon as they start implementing the provisions they just passed in a big hurry. No open transparency for the compromising hearings. No 48 hours to study bill before voting on it. No 5 days after passage before Obama signs it. All things that were his campaign promises. So much for change. But I think change is coming that many people may not want.
I see UAW losing quickly. The government should implement a special bankruptcy for GM to wipe out contracts and give them a fresh start. Maybe they can employ some of the Toyota workers being laid off or bought out. :P
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Didn't I just say that??? Is there an echo in here???
Reality check. GM employs 266k World Wide. The last figure I saw was UAW workers in the USA had dropped under 60k at GM. I doubt the UAW has 350k Total members left from a high in 1970 of 1.4 million. That is what ignorant leadership has done to a once proud Union. Yes, Reuther is probably looking up and just shaking his head.
Your gloom and doom forecasting sounds familiar. Not everyone takes out a mortgage without mortgage Insurance. In fact I would say most of the current mortgages are insured. It is the insurance companies that are on the hook when someone walks away from their home.
The economy does not revolve around the UAW and Domestic automakers. In fact my guess is as soon as it is clear that GM is going out of business it will be a real boon to Ford. People don't want to waste money on a car that has no backing for warranty. At least smart people do not. The sooner Obama pulls the plug on GM and gives the others a shot at the few customers the better.
But the bailout, this is weird to me: an 1100-page document to read and not allow Federal lawmakers time to read it? Oh, no, this is not transparency, is it? Are these not lies and broken promises, already?
Stay tuned for more regarding healthcare issues and help from the Fed.'s regarding same. There is a large disconnect going on at the present time regarding getting da money to da people.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Its called supply and demand. Certainly one who studies Latin and or Art is limited. PHD or not, these aren't sought after in the current economy. I like to think as the Japanese do. They look at those who make things. Value added and touch labor as the true assets. The UAW workers in the auto industry certainly have a tangible product. More than what we could say for the investment bankers. Certainly the Japanese don't pay their CEO's what they get here in America. Supply and demand are what determines compensation in a perfect capitalism market. However, we have nepotism/cronyism and other factor who are hell bent on distorting market conditions. You can't think that special interest lobby's are spending millions to spread goodwill? Only you think that education effort is the sole reason to better compensate someone. Get real and you will see your plight is directly or indirectly tied to the working class.
UAW folks work on the space shuttle, space station, joint strike fighter, and many others. They represent large number of research folks in universities. However, like Warren Buffet, Bill Gates, George Soros, and many other well to do folks, its futile to judge people by their education. Their character and intestinal fortitude are important factors which make them as important to any organization. Many of those UAW folks you belittle are veterans who have gone into harms way to defend this country as has the Big Three churned out product during WWII. I prefer to make people feel important and get the best out of them. While you are creating division and will get your self fulling prophecy. This is not a caste system as like in India, this is America.
and import eastern Indians and Mexicans and Italians...and hire them on in our American hospitals?Must of struck a nerve? Its no secret that folks are already crossing borders to seek medical attention. Then if they lack health insurance they may not be welcomed in many hospitals. We are seeing drug stores practicing medicine with hired nurses. There is the subsitute theory in economics. You have certainly heard of treatment overseas and vacation afterwards? Elective medical treatment is ripe for competition to say the least. Its no different than what would happen if gas rose to $10 a gallon. People would drive less, wildcat oil men would be drilling, alternative energy would considered and evolve, auto makers would build more frugal transportation, mass transportation would utilized more, and other means would be looked at. We need to look at the price elasticity of demand of any given product or service. The total oppisite would be if the price of salt were to triple, most folks wouldn't be too concerned.
dallasdude...listen to yourself speaking!
Maybe you need to look into taking a few economics classes. Hence, you might understand me better.
I disagree, you fail to see this as a national problem affecting almost everyone. Then you aren't taking into account the growth in unions/UAW comes about during times when Americans suffer hardship. Lastly, its counter productive and will make the situation worse if working folks are jobless and unable to fuel the economy. The ripple is felt by may whom depend on those who earn good wages for their economic well being. One has to understand macro economics to see the implication here. You certainly have to come to grips with the fact that more foreclosures increase the supply of housing and therefore affects the price of housing. Hence, your/my home is worth less and we are indirectly affected, just to name one of many things we are touched by.
Maybe you should suggest the abolishment of Medicare?
The UAW refuses to throw the retirees under the bus. The retirees don't pay union dues. However, the UAW feels a moral obligation to them. Tell it like it is.
Yes you did my friend. I failed to see your post prior to my reply. Brilliant minds think alike.))))))))))) echo
PMI or MPI are there to protect the lender. You can avoid paying either if you put 20% down and that insurance doesn't cover the entire outstanding balance. It $15,000 or so. Then the lender has the opition to refuse the insuranc payment and hand it back to the govt, if ts a VA or FHA loan. With housing prices dropping and most lenders with many homes as assets, the govt will get these back as HUD homes.
No where is that anymore prevalent than the UAW.
Maybe you need to look into taking a few economics classes. Hence, you might understand me better.
It does not take a degree in economics to see what the UAW is doing to the Auto Industry. The space industry is a huge government sponge. So I would imagine any UAW space workers would be protected like the millions of Union civil servants. Until China starts asking for their money back.
You certainly have to come to grips with the fact that more foreclosures increase the supply of housing and therefore affects the price of housing.
That is true. I applied and received a lower assessment on my home last year. Saved me $1100 in taxes. I plan to do the same this year. So your point is? Lower housing prices are good for everyone, right?
You keep equating the housing bubble bursting with the demise of the Domestic Auto industry. It was purely coincidental. GM was losing massive amounts of money 3 years before the financial crisis. They were a poor risk to lenders long before the bank meltdown. They have been BLED TO DEATH by the UAW pure and simple. And the ignorance shown last night when the UAW walked out on the negotiations is a further indication of just how STUPID the UAW leadership really is. They still think it is 1950 and the Domestic auto industry is beholden to them.
The effect would be devastating in ways of which you never have thought:
Nearly 3 million jobs would be lost in the first year alone – with another 2.5 million to follow over the next two years
Personal income in the United States would drop by more than $150.7 billion in the first year
The cost to local, state, and federal governments could reach $156.4 billion over three years in lost taxes, and unemployment and health care assistance
Domestic automobile production would more than likely fall to zero – even by international producers, due to supplier bankruptcies
The credit crisis that is affecting us all is wounding the U.S. auto industry in many different ways. Carmakers can’t get loans to restructure and to produce new advanced technology vehicles. Suppliers and dealers can’t get loans for routine business, and customers can’t get loans for new cars.
http://gmfactsandfiction.com/archives/
Try selling for less than you owe on it. If you have to move, you might have to bring cash to closing. Its called being upside down.
We would not be in the mess we are today if the lenders required 20% down. That has been the problem. EZ lending pratices. You know who was behind it. You are in denial.
Yes someone will end up losing. Future tax payers. Your kids and grandkids along with mine. All because of failed socialist programs to give everyone a shot at owning a home.
Consider the UAW another failed socialist program. That is all it is.
In 2008, the Chevy Malibu was named North American Car of the Year, and the Cadillac CTS was Motor Trend’s 2008 Car of the Year. In 2007, the Saturn Aura and Chevy Silverado won North American Car and Truck of the year. Those awards are given and judged by automotive journalists. The Pontiac Solstice Coupe made Car and Driver’s 2008 “10 Most Beautiful” list.
Customers have responded as enthusiastically as the critics. Although GM’s total U.S. vehicle sales are down 23% compared to 2007 levels, several GM cars and crossovers have enjoyed sales increases:
Chevy Malibu +39% (+98% retail)
Buick Enclave +53% (+61% retail)
Pontiac Vibe +25%
Cadillac CTS +3% (Only mid-luxury car to increase volume last year)
In addition, Chevy Corvette, Suburban and Tahoe were the sales leaders in their segments last year.
http://gmfactsandfiction.com/archives/
I think there is hope for you yet. That is exactly where GM is with their UAW legacy costs. They are upside down without any money to pay for the promises they made to their workers. Most of the time in the heat of a strike. So I don't have any sympathy for either side. One was stupid the other a bully.
U.S.-based carmakers spend more on R&D than any industry – more than $12 billion annually. We also provide healthcare benefits to 2 million Americans, and support nearly 800,000 retirees and spouses with pension benefits.
In short, the economic impact of this industry is substantial, and reaches every state in the nation.
There is also the matter of national pride. GM is one of a handful of U.S.-based manufacturing companies that compete head-to-head with the world’s best in global markets. We are proud that we have become a truly global company, and proud that we are a leader in fast growing markets like China, Brazil and Eastern Europe. We are also proud that American brands like Chevrolet and Cadillac are known and admired around the world.
http://gmfactsandfiction.com/archives/
Then who is going to buy the trinkets they sell at Walmart? Catch 22 in action.
It affects some parts of the country more than others. In the metro NYC area, where I live, the financial services industry is a far larger employer. I know a couple of dozen people who were working for a bank or brokerage firm this time last year & who are now unemployed. But I have yet to meet anyone now out of work whose last job was auto-related.
Although I feel sorry for anyone who's unemployed, I only have a limited amount of money, & I'd rather use that to support small local businesses. Keeping a plant open that's 800 miles away does nothing for my town.
It was money wasted from what I see coming out of Detroit. I personally think you make up all those numbers. At the very most the auto industry including the Imports would be 3% of the workforce. GM knows how to spread the crap, just go to their website. Again I would challenge the R&D figure as a total lie. They could have come up with a real alternative with that much money. Not that Volt joke they plan to push out in 2010.
Give it up, the General is DEAD. The UAW and poor management has killed him.
However, you enjoyed the good times with the investment banking parasites. They directly caused McCains defeat, the credit crunch, and total economic chaos. I certainly didn't care for my money being used to bail out these losers. In China they would have been executed.
It's nonsensical! Kind of describes all the UAW morons who keep deciding to suck the General dry when they should step way back and give back some of that slop they've forced GM to give them. Under the duress of your moronic strikes.
Pitiful. You guys have helped to slit the throat of your own employer, an employer who used to proudly rule over the automotive "world." You should all be ashamed of yourselves, yet UAW members like you pridefully continue defending the union man's plight as being one of necessity. What a joke, on both the UAW's and GM and Chrysler. Ford may just pull out of this thing, though it's still too early to tell.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Neither did I. All bailouts are bad, as you certainly know.
Are you claiming that GM and the UAW with their doom and gloom of 3 million jobs in jeopardy, are not spreading it thick? GM has in round terms 65K UAW workers on the payroll. What the spin meisters at GM and the UAW would like the American public believe is if they go all the suppliers go with them. Well maybe the UAW suppliers that are tied to horrible agreements will go broke. That does not mean the other auto makers will not find the parts they need from new suppliers. And long before the millions of new & used vehicles sitting in lots are sold. The dies and machinery will not disintegrate. And the bankrupt UAW suppliers will be more than willing to sell that machinery for someone else to supply parts. The sheer arrogance of the UAW walking out on the talks with GM, boggles my mind. The UAW is so living in the past. I do not know of any company in any industry that pays people near full wages for not working. The rest of the 10 million Americans are lucky to be collecting a pittance compared to the Jobs Bank prima donna UAW workers. And they are not all gone yet. GM has as of this month 1600 sitting in rubber rooms eating jelly donuts collecting their pay for at least another year. That is $100,000,000 down the toilet for GM.
With the walkout by the UAW last night, they have left GM little choice but bankruptcy. Obama would probably help them if there was anything GM makes that he likes. He has a Ford and a Chrysler at home in Hyde Park. Sorry GM you and your hard headed UAW buddies LOSE.
No. Not at all. They are. It's just nobody called Toyota to the carpet for their figures, and everybody wants to call BS on GM. You have to be consistent in that argument.
".....The sheer arrogance of the UAW walking out on the talks with GM, boggles my mind."
My original thought on that was a heavy hearted (SIGH). I do think at this point it should be "Whatever it takes man, we'll follow you off the cliff if we have to." Instead, it seems as if they followed them to the cliff and are saying "You first. Let us know how you make out, and we'll be there soon" (as they give them a big shove).
I will say, though, it seems as though events over say the last 20-25 years has created a deep level of mistrust between unions and management. What guarantee would there be of making it up to the unions if they concede things, and then 5,10 yrs from now if management was rolling in profits, that the unions would get anything back??? I don't think there is anything, and that is too far off in the distance to make any promises.
I'm sure your response will be it's either hold hands with the devil and jump, or have no job to negotiate for. I agree.
Ron should grab Rick's hand, close his eyes, head to Congress, and GERONIMOOOOOOO!!!!!!!
The strength of the UAW has ebbed substantially. In 1979 the union had a membership of 1.5 million. By 2005 it had plunged to 600,000. Unless the transplants do something real stupid like slashing wages in half or eliminating medical benefits, we see union membership continue to dwindle.
But not to worry. Bailout money will be printed each month to keep the jobs going. Stimulating, indeed!
In the end, a bad business model can not be fixed until it's abolished. This will take some time and over $100B when all is said and done. I wish all of the workers the best of luck. The only constant is change.
Can't Cut Costs Enough
Regards,
OW
I know you're not Gary. It's understood that the cost of living in Lubbock is not the same as Alaska or NYC or LA. I DO think that if you live in a higher cost area and move to a lower one, you should be afforded the same "standard of living" for doing the same work ( note that does not mean same pay). Even our contract has 3 pay scales, for people working in rural areas, suburban, and urban.
I do think Ron should give some, I just hope that when things get better (and they will, they always do. This IS America, after all) Rick remembers that and reciprocates. If they are both truely "auto guys", then they are cut more from the same cloth than even they may realize. While their own behinds are of utmost importance to them individually, it still behooves them to watch out for one another also.
The UAW refuses to throw the retirees under the bus. The retirees don't pay union dues. However, the UAW feels a moral obligation to them. Tell it like it is.
What does Medicare have to do with the comment: "Maybe they (UAW) feel they'll cut a better deal after they help put GM into bankruptcy." ?
The UAW is standing up for their retirees I agree, but if there's no company left, they will not be able to get anything from nothing (something that's no longer in existence).
If you retire, you opt to do so by taking certain things into consideration. Like a pension, health care, social security, 401K balance, and other circumstances. The retiree made his/her decision on leaving the work force with assumptions. To pull the rug out from seniors is pathetic and what to say that the entitlements aren't fair game at some future date?
We are aware that this group doesn't vote on an agreement and or pay dues. So this is the easy way out. They are in negotiations and need to do some forward thinking. Any fool can go the path of least resistance.
Why are you making a big fuss if they are going to lay off in a restructuring bankruptcy? You know they will hire the good ones back as soon as possible.
I agree but desperate times call for desperate measures. With Badfinger storming out of the room where negotiations are taking place just shows his (and UAW's perceived ) arrogance.