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Brilliant!!! So why did those investment bankers not opt this route? They must have better knowledge or economic savy beyond yours?
Why should you be obliged to pay more tax each month to bail out banking fat cats and or auto workers when you can live abroad in legitimate countries 100% tax-free?
My point is that unions have to realize that as long as there are non-union workers/organizations willing to make a similar product at a lower cost, the union is in trouble. The union company had better make a better product in some way, to justify its companies' higher costs.
Perhaps they could work for a dollar a year?
UAW President Ron Gettelfinger has pointed out, there are double standards at work here as well. According to Gettelfinger, Alabama has spent a whopping $175,000 per employee to create its automotive work force.
As you point out, federal taxpayer money flows freely in these circumstances, and so does free assistance from northern states, including Michigan. Detroit automakers, for example, gladly helped with vehicles and personnel when Hurricane Katrina slammed the Gulf Coast.
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081224/OPINION03/812240303/1- 148/&source=nletter-business
Perhaps the UAW workers can find a job in a car wash after they bury GM and Chrysler. Then again they could just live off of savings and food stamps.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28239206/
must have? what must have?
The population in Detroit will continue to slide. At some point it would make a really good paintball venue with all the abandoned buildings and such. Though the ex-UAW might not be able to afford the paintball guns from their WalMart greeter jobs. :P :P
The UAW can not make substantially more than any other workers with similar skills are making elsewhere in the world. If Chinese, Koreans, Africans, Brazilians, or any other nation has workers that will build autos for substantially less, then the UAW companies will lose sales, and the UAW will lose jobs, and the whole thing will go under. Guess what - that's happening! That's reality.
If the UAW did something better or unique then they can pretty much set their wages. They can't - they have no real power in the long run. The consumer chooses what someone gets paid for a job in these cases, by what they buy.
And everyone in the U.S. is not going to be working for $10/day or Walmart wages. People who choose to get skills and education have avery good chance of making decent money. I'm not in any union, never had been, and make decent money woking as an engineer at a manufacturing plant. We've been in business 95 years and our business is stable.
Actually they don't have to compete with workers in the rest of the world. They simply need to compete with workers in the US. Other companies are building cars here without the UAW and they are paying their workers more than the overseas counterparts are being paid. These workers are being paid better than many in the US. They simply don't have the burdon of the UAW on their shoulders.
I believe the American worker can be paid well and be competitive. But something has to be done with the overhead of the retirements and benefits. The automotive industry is not a monopoly and it has to weather and adjust to swings in the economy. With the restrictive contract it seems like its bust or boom as the only two options.
One intrepid news reporter submitted a job application using the name "Joseph Martin" and was never called in for an interview. He then submitted another one using the name "Jose Martinez" and was immediately hired.
Where do you get this stuff? Have you ever traveled outside of the U.S.?
Once again there's a field called healthcare that I have first-hand knowledge of it expanding and needing more workers. I wanted to stay at The Boeing Company and work 20 additional years and retire there. Didn't happen. Did I just quit working or ask Uncle Sam and the taxpayers to give Boeing an additional 10B large ones to keep me employed? Nope.
Boeing is so paranoid and I spose ya could say conservative that they still would've laid off 40,000+ workers in 2002-03, so it wouldn't have made one bit of difference. My point is, I had to retrain, either that or look for a Technical Illustration job that would've paid halfway decent. That's a problem, I would've been paid about 1/2 or 2/3's of what Boeing paid me to draw parts and assemblies. Wasn't an option with chunks of bills needing paid.
So a friend also getting his pink slip explained about the Trade Act, or Trade Readjustment Act, to me. If you lose your job due to foreign competition Uncle Sam will accept you into the program, if you pick an accredited training program and an accredited school, and pay for your books and tuition in full.
Here's the kicker. Tied in to the program is Unemployment Insurance. If you keep a 'C' average or better up, you'll get weekly U.I. benefits paid to you as long as you're working towards fulfilling your degree program. My wife and I put our house up for sale in expensive-to-live-on-U.I.-Washington state and bought a 4'X8' utility trailer. We had a hitch installed on the '01 Kia Sportage 4X4. This work was paid for with the severance check Boeing paid us all. It amounted to about a 1/4 of my yearly salary, but was really nice to see at layoff time.
We hired an excellent real estate agent for the Mount Vernon-Burlington region, and in late May of 2003, headed toward the Ozarks of Missouri for me to enroll in college. We bought our first cell phone, not on a plan but on a prepaid deal. We would close any deal on our house by cell phone and fax machine.
Guess what? While visiting my wife's Mom and family in Chicago, our house sold. Took a total of 3 weeks! Once that happened our dream was firmly set in place, not being tied to an expensive Washington state real estate payment!
Whoo-hoo! We had a blast in Chicago and the Ozarks setting up our little cabin-house to rent in for cheap. Bought a bunch of household implements we had to have and settled in. Lots of drives around beautiful Missouri while waiting for school to start in mid-August.
UAW dudes and dudettes-your jobs are going bye-bye! I have explained in detail how we handled it. If you pick healthcare you'll be exposed to infectuous diseases through the air(droplet), gross bodily fluids and sometimes rude patients. But you get used to it.
I love the comedy series 'Scrubs'-it keeps things real for me. My point is that we're not going to "outsource" our healthcare jobs, rockylee. Sorry-that's not gonna happen.
Some of y'all UAW's might consider a two-year Medical program to train in. Of course, you can go for a 4-year degree program, but, it'll take you longer to get back to work that way. Some students do go to work part-time or as many hours as they can handle while waiting for graduation.
I'm not poking fun or pointing fingers at people in troubled industries-I've been there personally...and just the continued blabbing all day long about layoffs and how the CEO's make way too much, etc., can be downright tiring to endure day in and day out, month in and month out.
Start planning your next career, dudes. The UAW and GM and Chrysler are toast. Ford may or may not make it. Be prepared to be your own advocate when dealing with the enormous amount of "red tape" you'll have to funnel through. But it can be done, I'm living proof. Perseverance is key here.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Obama is not going to save GM or Chrysler. They could not make money when the US was selling 17 million vehicles per year. How are they going to survive selling 10 million?
The only Union jobs left that have pensions are Civil Service. Guess what? They are not secure right now. Many retirees in CA are worried that Ahnold will try to steal money from the $250 billion pension fund. Once those sleazy thieves get their hands on it they will waste it on the same foolishness as always. Get out of the UAW while you can still sign up for training. Once the hammer falls on the domestics the system will be flooded.
I don't think we are. I thought that my hard work at Boeing might help me keep my job. Only 2 of the 21 people in my 767 Production Illustration group made it, and they were both Leads. And they were good Leads.
I agree, Obama doesn't relish the spoiled UAW workers' games and bad attitudes. He'll turn the other way to your continued pleas for taxpayer bailout money.
I don't know, I've been there before, I don't relish the thought of people having trouble, with anything in their lives. So don't take it the wrong way, dallasdude and UAW workers. But unless you have a few Mil.large ones in savings (the pension fund could be touched of GM's too, you never know) and you're still of decent working age, I'd be planning for your next career.
I'd start working on it right now, don't wait.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I can just hear a UAW car washer. Not in my contract to wash an import. Move it out of here. Slash the tires while you are at it. What do you mean I should dry more than one car per hour. Talk to my business agent I got rights, I voted for Obama.
ROFL
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I will gladly pay you $6 to wash my car outside here in Boston during the winter months. From ~April-November, my brains come out of hibernation and I weekly hand wash/wax my car. Of course, using Zaino products.
Was it Brian Bosworth who wrote of his UAW time building cars? He noted that he and his buds would often tie a washer to a string and hang it inside of the sheetmetal of cars they were building. To create a pinging noise to drive the buyer nuts, hard to diagnose/find! Hilarious! He noted, what, were they going to fire him?! Could be wrong, but I think that is a true story...
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
Regards,
OW
Why does that not surprise me that he spent time UAW-represented? That's pathetic, but IIRC I have heard of similar stories about IAM Union-represented Boeing mechanics, too. Just leaving tools in the small, out-of-the-way hard-to-reach areas of the wings and fuselage. Still pathetic.
BTW-these guys and gals represented by the IAM are so similar to the UAW "workers" it's hilarious. They could be interchangeable! :shades:
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I think it was he who told that story, wasn't worried about shoddy workmanship or getting fired thanks to the UAW. But, not 100% sure of the veracity of that...
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
Uh, no, the problem started with certain boneheaded managers running their companies right into the ground, and then expecting taxpayers to bail out these companies with federal dollars.
One thing that these boneheaded managers did was give in to a thorougly spoiled union that seems to think the world revolves around Michigan, and that asking them to pay more for health care, for example, will automatically turn the U.S. into a Third World hellhole.
Another dumb thing they did was build substandard passenger cars for many years, to the point where a very large percentage of new-car buyers decided to spend their dollars elsewhere.
Unless the senators of Alabama, Georgia, Mississippi and Tennessee made these decisions, I fail to see how they can be held responsible for the current condition of GM and Chrysler.
dallasdude1: UAW President Ron Gettelfinger has pointed out, there are double standards at work here as well. According to Gettelfinger, Alabama has spent a whopping $175,000 per employee to create its automotive work force.
Which is the right of Alabama to do, if it wants to. Those tax dollars were collected from ALABAMA citizens. This is different from asking all Americans to bail out a company - especially when a very large percentage of them have specifically chosen not to buy said company's products.
You do realize that Michigan has doled out tons of state money to GM, Ford and Chrysler when they revamp production facilities, don't you?
Tax money is tax money. Just because Jerry Jones gets a billion dollar stadium paid for by taxpayers doesn't make him a capitalist. Capitalist are suppose to be risk takers and thats haw they get their reward/profit. Otherwise its socialism.
Thats not true and you fail to acknowledge the fact that the prevailing wage is being kept high by unions. The UAW keeps wages high in the entire economy. Years back when the salaried folks and engineers at the Big Three enjoyed benefits as good as the UAW represented. They opted not to be represented by the UAW and then when times got bad they got their just dessert.
Your living in a dream world if you think that these transplants are benevolent. Just look at the secret Toyota plan to lower wages when the UAW goes away. Then take a good look at their part timers (all lay-ed off/axed) and their benefits.
The report from Seiichi (Sean) Sudo, president of Toyota Engineering & Manufacturing in North America, said Toyota should strive to align hourly wages more closely with prevailing manufacturing pay in the state where each plant is located, "and not tie ourselves so closely to the U.S. auto industry, or other competitors."
"They worry about details. They never stop worrying," said David Cole, chairman of the Center for Automotive Research in Ann Arbor. "They encourage worrying in the company, from the top down."
The root of Sudo's worry: Labor costs as a percentage of sales are growing faster than Toyota's profit margin.
"The companies in Detroit are going to say, 'Look, we're in dire straits here. We're going to have to follow what they do,' " said Kenny Harper, 48, who has 18 years' seniority at Toyota's flagship complex in Georgetown, Ky.
Harper, who wants the UAW to represent Toyota workers, said he disagrees with the company on principle
Sudo's 42-page report, which was left unsecured on computers at the Georgetown plant, says, "The U.S. auto industry pays among the highest manufacturing wages in the world. Compared with Japan and France, the U.S. auto industry pays 50% higher wages and over five times more than Mexico's auto manufacturers."
The company acknowledged that the documents supplied to the Free Press were authentic
Currently, the median for comparable manufacturing jobs in Kentucky -- half earn more, half earn less -- is $12.64, according to the U.S. Department of Labor.
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2008112120001
http://www.uaw.org/solidarity/07/0607/uf03.php
http://news.stv.tv/business/75719-toyota-to-cut-hours-and-offer-buyouts-to-us-wo- rkers/
Fact or fiction?
http://www.snopes.com/autos/grace/rattle.asp
Some folks think they live in a vacuum. Fact is that at 10% unemployment in Michigan, they have started laying off health care workers. One cannot take for granted the mess the bubble has created. Folks losing jobs, also entails losing health insurance. Therefore, its a mistake to assume that one is immune to external factors.
That being said, my ability to market my skills and abilities has been beyond my expectations. Well I've been at the same job for 27 years now. I have and continue to generate an excellent income and plan on an early retirement in 2012. January of 2007, I went into safety and avoided this whole unpleasant situation. Fact is that I was investing for myself and others as a sideline. Since, I have Fridays off, I decided to make good use of it. My Friday and sometimes Saturday moonlighting went on to compensate me more than the Monday - Thursday job. However, if you enjoy your work, its almost like stealing. Again, people need to realize that the UAW also represents folks with high skill levels and or well educated folks. We tend to stereotype the typical UAW represented employee as someone derived from a corporate controlled media market with an agenda. Just as Madison Ave gives us the conceptual derivation of beauty and what is in vogue.
I totally agree with Mr. Sudo. What is the point of paying high wages to employees in regions where standard of living is low just because D3 is paying more in Michigan? If that employee likes to have a better pay, guess what? move to Michigan and get it. I did that. Why wouldn't anybody else?
It looks like the case of the cheap guy who drives a BMW but his credit card is maxed out and can barely make minimum payment :sick: :confuse:
Consider the shifting situation in the U.S. auto industry. Historically, Japanese automakers who operate plants in the United States have sought to avoid the United Auto Workers (UAW) by paying comparable wages to the Detroit Three. In fact, Toyota wages edged above UAW wages for the first time in 2006, although benefits remained less generous (Roberson 2007a). Despite announcing record sales and earnings for the third quarter 2006, an internal Toyota report reveals the company plans to slash $300 million or about one-third out of its rising labor costs by 2011. The report indicates Toyota no longer wants to "tie [itself] so closely to the U.S. auto industry, or other competitors." Instead, the company intends to benchmark the prevailing manufacturing wage in the state in which a plant is located. In Kentucky, where the company is headquartered, this wage is currently $12.64 an hour, less than half Toyota's $30 an hour wage (Roberson 2007b). "The U.S. auto industry pays among the highest manufacturing wages in the world," the report states. "Compared with Japan and France, the U.S. auto industry pays 50% higher wages" and more ominously for U.S. workers "over five times more than Mexico's auto manufacturers" (Roberson 2007b).
http://www.sharedprosperity.org/bp181.html
That was in 2001......duh
Get real. They were in debt then too. Just not up to their ears. On top of that they did not save for a rainy day. which actually turns out to be a full blown monsoon.
So why was it such a big secret? Why did he not come out with it prior to one his well paid employees at the plant leaking it/aka spilling the beans?
Which companies, besides McDonalds is doing well? Open your eyes, Toyota and Honda are laying off and sales are way off.
and if Mr. Sudo thought it was such a big secret, he would not leave it unsecured....duh
Walmart made a dandy profit in 2008. They are the place where the working class shops. Also the unemployed and welfare recipients. Yes and Toyota and Honda can lay people off without having the UAW millstone around their neck that just keeps Saying "GIMME, GIMME, GIMME". That is why they will survive and GM and Chrysler will go by the wayside. The warranty on your Caddie will be worthless when the car starts to fall apart. Or there is a loose nut in a fender panel driving you crazy.
1) Were the D3 able to get a new wage agreement with UAW then it's highly possible that they won't need that much in bailout money.
2) Remember that the bailout almost got rejected at congress because UAW REFUSED to make wage concessions required by the feds to give out the loan.
3) Ron Middlefinger's decision to finally shut the heck up shows that the UAW is fighting a losing battle.
4) There's no such thing as "supporting lower wages is wrong". In the end it's the consumers who decide, with their money.
5) Honestly I don't think any of us contra-UAWs care about how much they make BEFORE the D3 AND UAW ask for bailout. The moment they ask for our tax money it became our business.
6) You forgot that Middlefinger clearly said in a press conference that "Without bailout GM and Chrysler will be out of business in 3 months." (sometime in November-December). Meaning? UAW support bailout = UAW ask for bailout as well.
Alright, you've finally opened the box!!! Keyword: FRANCE. Allow me to point out that:
The French don't care more about their workers, they're fierce nationalists, so much to the point it's almost irrational. They subjectively look down on imports, partucularly those from outside Europe, not because of quality but because of mentality. Plus French government protected their auto industry for so long, placing tariffs on imports, supporting their workers and unions. In case you think that's given them a positive effect, look at what Peugeot, Citroen and Renault became: junks in both quality and reliability. And this kind of retardation happens in a country where the people's "patriotism" is way over America's. Imagine what will happen if US is to follow the same path. Don't believe me? Sure, just go there, hang out with the people and see it for yourself.
Overprotection is never a good thing, that much is obvious.
Of course, by conveniently forgetting these facts it seems like you suggest us to buy domestic cars even though the quality is crap (correct me if I'm wrong). All that for "patriotism" and to "support the workers". Well, such weak argument sure as hell will never convince anyone, well, anyone with the objective mind that is.
Huh? Noone's ever said they shouldn't. However should the company go down because of the agreement then don;t ask for our tax money.
Point is: do whatever you want but LIVE WITH THE CONSEQUENCES. Don't come to us for aid the same way we won't come to ask for your help.
"Or...wait -- do you think unions/UAW are to blame for the current economic slump? "
Dallas, why do you keep asking this question?
No the unions aren't to blame for the economic mess, however the economic mess IS NOT TO BLAME FOR THE UAW MESS.
"So, why don't you build your own car? It only takes them a few hours. "
No, Dallas. It takes THE MACHINES a few hours.
"Don't think we can reach 10% unemployment? Drive the American auto industry out of business. I guarantee you we'll break 8% without a sweat. And that's assuming a model where Ford DOESN'T go bankrupt."
Really? GM predicted that about 1 million people will go jobless when the company goes down. Add Chrysler and even Ford, and the number goes up to about 2 million. How's 2 million become 10%???? Come on, Dallas, do the math. Those numbers include suppliers, dealers, etc, etc. With 330 million people you need 33 million jobless to get 10% unemployement rate. At worst unemployement will reach about 7-8%, and that is ASSUMING the D3 will be left out and noone buys whats left of them.
Plus, you forgot about the stimulus package that will absorb 2-3 million workforce. 10%? Now THAT'S corporate controlled information.
Here we go again. Dallas, you keep pointing out UAW as if it's the only factor that keep wages high in the economy. High wages, high wages, high wages is all you ever point out. You seem to fail to notice that high wages, while a good thing for UAW, isn't necessarily a good thing for the whole economy. I don't care to aspire everyone to raise into the middle class because in real life it's impossible. All I care about is how we can stabilize and maintain balance, and that means some will have lower wages and some will have higher wages based on their EFFORT and QUALITY.
Do you really think someone who spent 4-6 years in college and work harder to improve skills deserve the same pay as barely educated, so-so skilled ones? Or that the employers will at least think they're worth the same???? Let me know as I sure as hell don;t think so. No, I don't forget that UAW also represents some truly skilled and educated workers, but honestly how many of them are???? I stand by my beliefs that those with real quality will survive WITH OR WITHOUT UAW.
At this point UAW represents neither true effort nor any sign of real quality. Then what makes you think they've earned their pay??? I keep asking you this question and you always ignore it.