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Comments
>Supply and demand are what determines compensation in a perfect capitalism market.
O My God. You finally do understand the concept of Supply & Demand. How come you can't seem to apply it in the context of the D3 and UAW?
There is no demand for the D3 products at the price they want. Why should they keep running?
So why does GM and UAW do things that hasten their closure? Couldn't they act more rationally over the years, and even now? If they were so smart, couldn't they see this impending doom? Of course it is highly visible for an outsider like me. I guess when you are inside that environment, you are blind, almost hypnotized and unable to look at the reality like everybody else who has an iota of common sense.
Did GM C-officers and UAW really think they could keep supporting:
1. Millions in pay for C-level
2. Full Health benefits for all retirees ( Utopian concept )
3. Ever increasing pay scale of labor folks
All these in the face of very visible competition that is
1. producing better quality products and
2. year after year offering better products for marginal increase in cost?
3. raising the minimum quality of product offered on the market
4. differentiating higher end product by offering better amenities/options, and not by reducing the quality of the lower end offerings.
Oh! so the more you sell the more loss you make? Is that how it works? If not, explain why GM is in the mess it is.
China and the US are bonded for the immediate to mid-term future.
That is unless China finds a better market to sell than the US.
In the meanwhile, the US should start finding a better sourcing country which will supply stuff cheaper than China.
I don't know the numbers, but I do feel that this (R&D) is only competitive advantage the US has. I see GM design in every Toyota. The difference is in how well it translates into the final product. Same goes for German products. The bad thing for the US products is that the Germans have finally started to translate their superior design into a better final product. Example: the New Mercedes C-class.
Your certainly going to get the cream of the crop.
The auto market is far from being perfect competition. You have overseas folks distorting the market with health care being nationalized. So if you want to deal with reality, special interest aren't part of supply and demand. Hence, the economic principals don't apply.
There is no demand for the D3 products at the price they want. Why should they keep running?
Here in America GM out sells all the Toyota/Honda asian companies. So your claim to there not being ANY demand is absurd.
We will take your opinion into consideration. For decades we have been doing just fine and now you put in your two cents. First of all you only know what the corporate owned media tells you. Then just because we are told that India is a caste system and full of ghettos, doesn't make it so. Why would any country not aspire to have a middle class? Just who do they think they are going to sell those Tata's to? If they had the UAW, they would have a middle class to buy consumer goods and services. Considering the enormus population, something seems wrong to the outsider looking in.
I agree that trade with China is a one way street and they benefit more. As the dollar takes a beating they have to grin and bear it. We are the number one consumer nation on the planet. We have more Walmarts than any other nation.
Your not going to tell me that every year is supposedly going to be profitable? All of the auto makers are bleeding along with many industries in the world. If you see a mess, in lean thinking we see opportunity. Just as Harley Davidson did years ago. Incidentally Harley is hurting in the current economic climate.
Add to that the fact that America spends some of its GNP to police the world. The competing nations benefit from our superior technology and the stability we provide.
Have you not ever refused a take it or leave it deal? I never ever pay sticker and come prepared to negotiate. Remember that an agreement can only be reached if both or all parties leave the table with something they feel better off with. You certainly wouldn't sign something you couldn't live with? Maybe, thats what happen in the subprime mortgage or maybe in ARM (adjustable rate mortgage) meltdown.
If a guy can no longer produce why should the company be required to keep him? If he is good employee they may find him a spot in engineering. That is if it is not against the UAW work rules. British Petroleum on a regular basis would offer early retirement to whole departments. A friend of mine took the money and early out. Within two weeks he was back as a consultant doing his old job. He was getting $1000 per day plus expenses. So they found out his knowledge was worth keeping around. He ended up making nearly double his old salary plus had the retirement that is quite good from the NON UNION oil companies.
In January it was 49% less than last year. GM is already down to 21% of the market and falling fast. Add to that GM is not making any money on the few they do sell. Who cares how many HonToy sells. They are not begging the tax payers to pay their huge wages.
Yes I am Problem with GM and their UAW legacy costs they have not made a profit even when RECORD NUMBERS OF VEHICLES were being sold. They lost Billions while Toyota made billions, even though GM sold more vehicles. There is a joke about that. "We lose money on every car, but make up for it with volume". GM fits that perfectly. GM has not made a DECENT PROFIT in 30 years. Or maybe you think that 2-3% return is good profit. This was the first year in 50 years that Toyota did not make a profit. So which company has done the best job at managing? Which company allowed an unbridled UAW control their destiny?
I think if you read a lot of the posts. The consensus is that GM has screwed the customers with substandard vehicles long enough. They also do not want to subsidize the UAW that does not care enough about the domestic auto industry to give up some of their over the top wages and benefits. So tell me why the American public should want to bail GM out? If GM has failed to build what the young buyers want, who's fault is it?
Do you say no and fire them or force them to quit??? What if your competition tries to hire them away (25 miles is nothing)??? I assume that the market allows you to pay them what you pay them (all things considered, if you have no problem keeping employees, then I assume your compensation is on par w/ the $12 your competition pays.)
Every one seems to want to bring this up, yet forget that RETAIL sales were steady. Yes, all sales count, but isn't this the same GM that was getting beat up 2 years ago in these threads for selling TOO MANY to the fleets???
Also, NOBODY was buying fleet autos. At some point in time these companies will need the cars and trucks. Don't forget too that while GM was selling cars last month, they weren't building them. So, they were reducing inventory.
I DON'T want this to sound as a rosy post, but I just don't think that things were as bad as the numbers indicate.
GOOD GOD GARY, GET IT RIGHT!!!!! IT'S 70 (SEVENTY) YEARS!!!!!!!
http://moneycentral.msn.com/investor/charts/chartdl.aspx?D4=1&ViewType=0&D5=0&CE- =0&ShowChtBt=Refresh+Chart&DateRangeForm=1&ComparisonsForm=1&D3=0&Symbol=TM&C9=2- &DisplayForm=1&CP=0&PT=11
What a freaking shame...but the UAW can always say they played no part in this catastrophe. It's those terrible customers, you know, that did GM in. :sick:
Regards,
OW
Take it easy with the exclamation marks, cooter, before you break your keyboard. Remember that although Toyota's last red ink year was in 1938, the company's U.S. sales division dates back only to 1957, which was the 1st year that it sold cars here. Most of us here don't care what Toyota was doing before then.
I don't think that nationalized health care, whatever its merits, "distorts" the market. When you say that, you're assuming that customers who choose imports over domestics do so only because of price. Unfortunately for the D3, it's not that simple. As often as not, customers prefer imports even when the domestic counterpart is cheaper.
When a luxury car buyer passes on a $40K Cadillac in favor of a $55K Mercedes, you obviously can't say that he picked the cheaper car.
I knew it was a lot longer than GM. Here is the big question. When was the last time a UAW auto company made a net profit of 5%? That being what Wall Street considers bare minimum to be worthwhile. I believe it was over 30 years ago for GM.
Let's not forget the UAW in their eternal ignorance went on strike in 2008 against GM while they were losing over $38Billion. How bright is that? While GM may be worth saving that kind of UNION Is NOT...
Kind of like that scene in "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid"
Like the 2009 GMC Professional Grade truck with marginal crash protection, while the Toyota Tundra passes with a very good score? See iihs.org. It's shameful that on a new truck GM (and Chrysler) can't get decent safety ratings.
Correction. Worthless would be a large gain from the big negative number they are now.
Agreed!
I would think that most here believe the seniors (retirees) should be taken care of.
They are in a somewhat helpless place with little defense.
However, there is nothing wrong with them giving some help. What is wrong with them contributing some toward their own health care?
Kip
....paid by the government with taxes from the citizens. Thus the overseas workers are recieving benefits much like the UAW.
We talk about th advantage the Asians have in labor, but considering the network of shipping costs they have that domestics don't it would seem they should be at a disadvantage on their imports. It has to add a pretty big chunk of change to each car imported to give it a cruise to get her. Ports, ships, fuel and they still have to use the rail and trucks once they get here just like the domestics.
Then we have the value of the dollar. Sometimes that has helped them but maybe not so lately.
There is probably nothing wrong with contributing some. However, the only problem I see is for those people is that they planned on this, because that is what they were promised.
At 40, I have plenty of time to prepare for things like this. I have a pension AND a 401k, and the prospect of fully paid healthcare for life. If they take away my healthcare, I still have a 401k to pay for it. But for someone who is say, 58 and all they have is a defined benefit pension plan, that leaves very little time to save in a 401k or some other plan for things like healthcare expenditures.
I get your point but 58 is not a very good age to make your point, maybe 68 would be better as 401K plans have been around for quite some time and a 58 year old still has more working years left, well maybe not in the UAW world but he does in the real world. I'd expect a 58 year old to have a sizeable 401K plan already. If they don't, then I have no sympathy for them.
Well shame on them for being ignorant of what they were taught. Remember the old saying that went something like this "I rather have a $1 today, than a promise of $2 tomorrow."? There's a reason for that, and that's because the promiser can change his mind, or spend it in the meantime.
If you think Social Security/Medicare isn't going to be changed, or the tax rules on 401K's, or your Roth won't change, then you're ignoring the fact that our government eventually needs to come for more $ from the taxpayer, or give you less.
I'd rather not pay SS, Medicare, or get insurance benfits; I'd rather have the cash and CONTROL it myself. But that's unlikely to happen because there are many foolish people who love the promise - on to find out there's a high cost to administer the system, and they'll have to fight to get what they do get.
But anyway, no I don't feel sorry for people who want to take the risk on a promise. They should know that the government can and does change the rules-of-the-game as they like.
58 is very young to retire without a big pile of cash or a lot coming in from a pension. Pensions are protected now, while health care is not. Even then a pension fund in this market can go below the required funding and the company not have the money to bring it up to the required amount. I am sure that GM is in that condition currently.
Thankfully we have Walmart that is willing to hire worn out old UAW workers to be greeters. That should be enough to keep their health care premiums paid. It also gets them off the couch watching the stupid TV.
I see how much difference it makes to the D3. Throwing money does not mean you get the best. There is a lot more than salary when you are working. I provide a very good working environment.
Of course I am right.
There is not enough demand to support it's cost base.
Of course it does.
They are right. India does have the caste system. India is full of Ghettos too.
The problem is that every country has the caste system, just not clearly defined as India. By the way, do you know that even before the US elected a Black guy to the highest position, India has the distinction of
1. Appointing a person of the lowest caste as it president in 1997
2. Appointing a Muslim as a president in the Hindu country in 1974
3. Appointing a Lady Prime Minister (the most powerful position in India) in1966
India received independence in 1947. US received independence in 1776.
See the difference.
Anyway, I am digressing. The point is the US government, elected by the citizens of USA, allowed the imports to build and sell in the USA. Were both the citizens and elected representatives so short sighted that they could not see this coming? Were the C-level officers, the intelligentsia of the D3, wearing blinders? Couldn't they see this competition coming? Fact is, nobody paid attention to the outside world. The folks in D3 could not see beyond their own boundaries.
>Just who do they think they are going to sell those Tata's to? If they had the UAW, they would have a middle class to buy consumer goods and services.
India has a huge middle class. And in case you don't realize it, quite a big chunk of them are in the Ghettos.
But for some, the convenience of working close by, and in a place where they are treated with respect and offered un-capped commission on sales (the more they sell, more they make) more than makes up for the long commute and extra gas dollars spent.
You are talking to UAW supporters that feel the worker is entitled to a given wage no matter what they produce or what it is worth. My Mother and Grandmother supported my sister and I in the 1940s as seamstress. They were paid totally by how many pieces they sewed. They could just sit at the machine all day and make $ZERO. Or as they did work their fingers to the bone and make a decent living during and after the war. That was a Union shop. Where work was not a 4 letter cuss word as it seems to be in the UAW.
It is young. My feeling is that the fault in a def. pension is that, years ago, somebody would grad HS, get a job in the factory, work till they were 65 (maybe 62), retire, and have a pension and healthcare till they died, which would be in 10-15 years. That was the bogey; roughly 45 years of work got you the 10-15 years of the "good life".
Now, with everybody trying college and "finding themselves" the may not get that job until they are 25. Then, at 55, they are either trying to retire or being pushed out the door by their employers, and living till they're 85. So now, the pension fund is pressured to put out for 30 years when the worker was there for only 30 years. Not gonna happen.
I think what they should really do is give incentives for the older workers to stay on, at least until 59 1/2. That will lessen the pension burden. Maybe even an incentive to defer their pension until a certain age or to "cash out" when you retire, leaving it up to you to decide what to do with a lump sum payout, and how to make that last until you die.
My biggest beef would be with pulling the rug out from under someone who is long since retired.
I considered retirement before I was 60. Our Union had already dumped the lifetime Health care as unsustainable. Left a lot of older Teamsters scrambling for coverage until they hit 65. I think Reagan tried to set an example and encouraged workers to stay on the job past 65. The UAW has discouraged it because the work is more geared to a young strong back. That to me, makes the UAW model unsustainable for someone to work his entire career. The normal 46 year work cycle is not practical. So what to do with old worn out UAW workers. Have them push a broom or mow the lawn, something productive even if it is at a lower wage. Where does it say in the Constitution someone has to keep making more each year till they retire?
I think the economy has taken care of that. I turned 55 last Dec and had looked forward to that day, but I can see now where to live comfortably with no decline in my standard of living, it will be 58 at the minimum but 60 will make more sense as long as I'm happy and healthy.
Where does it say in the Constitution someone has to keep making more each year till they retire?
Don't a lot of plans, including SS take into account your highest earnings in the last 5 years? Everyone figures they have to keep making more and more until they retire because once they're gone the calculation is made and that is all there is.
Here is the real issue. All the new hires under the current UAW contract only have a 401K. If they just look around at their older fellow employees and see how well they are holding up under that type work, it should give them reason to get an education and get out of the back breaking grind. Though I imagine much of the real back breaking work is now accomplished with machines. If when I started in the phone business I thought what I was doing in 1961 was what I would be doing in 2006, I would have gotten out. There were guys in the same spot 40 years and never moved to a better position. Does the UAW encourage getting educated and moving to a more fulfilling job? Maybe outside the control of the UAW?
For most people, the Social Security retirement benefit is actually based on the highest 35 years, adjusted for inflation. (I know this because I once worked for Social Security.)
Our 401K's, my Boeing pension, savings and S.S. from the both of us(starting payouts at age 66, actually, I forget that it's no longer age 65 for SS payouts for us) should get us through. Healthcare-we'll probably have to help pay for ours at least somewhat (I recall hearing that Medicare isn't a "full medical coverage", is this true, need the info.here), and I don't think the hospital is going to get a regular pension plan, either, nor will they help pay our post-retirement healthcare(as the UAW was doing), in any percentage. Can't really expect them to. So I'm actually grateful to get out of the Seattle area and Boeing work. Took a few years(3)to get re-trained and then find this little desert oasis, but we are both glad we did. Also glad we bought our house two years ago, it's value has actually appreciated 33% in two years, I kid you guys not!
As for the UAW, dallasdude, know that I don't like the high cost of drugs and healthcare, either. We need to continue looking out for older folks, that is my job primarily. About 75% of my patients are 70 or older.
Don't get on this "healthcare workers, doctors, respiratory therapists, nurses, radiologists, drug companies" are all evil personified kick, d-dude.
You know and I know that's catiwampus...you and your UAW buddies should've conceded bene's and wages instead of striking the General when he was bleeding red ink all over the place. When was that not happening, BTW? 20 years ago? When did GM last make at least a small profit? I don't take delight in the General struggling, especially seeing him now make some decent rigs for sale, but....it's pathetic to strike your Company when they're bleeding red ink and making huge stains all over...ummm....the country. :sick:
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
UAW, GM make progress in auto talks (Yahoo)
There's some good stuff posted today over in Does America Even Need Its Own Automakers?. (Well, actually it was moved over there
dallasdude-ya must be about ready to pop in here and tell us all to go to &&$$!
BTW-where's our buddy rockford been? I know that the simple task of earning a living can have a way of pulling a guy outta here for a while from time to time, indeed.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick