So when you see people who are asked to take these cuts and then they just moan a bit and continue to plug away at that same job at that same company, then you can say with some certainty that they are overpaid and still may be.
It's just like GM trying to sell Saab or Hummer. Gm thinks they're worth X, but no one is willing to pay X, so GM is overpricing Hummer and Saab. What is Hummer and Saab worth - they're worth what someone else is willing to pay for them.
(Rockylee) Well the consquences of our unions not being around would be dire straits for the working class. Forget overtime or making the kind of wages you and the UAW, made. Do you really believe they would pay some [non-permissible content removed] $100K plus to work for the Telephone company if autoworkers were making $10 an/hr.
No I don't think so, and nor do I think they deserve that much to begin with.
I guess you soon forget all the positives unions have done for working people and all the non-union workers wouldn't have any coat tails to live from to base their wage scales on. We would be one happy 3rd world country and with the decline of union membership so goes the economy!!! The 1950's and 60's when unionization was at it's peak well the american dream was easily achieved!!!!
Here we go again, Rocky. This time machine thing is getting ridiculous. Sure the unions might have done us some good in the 50s-60s, but which union???
Not all unions are bad, like I've always said. However UAW is one of the rotten ones.
Besides, even if UAW DID some good for the society, why should any of us support them for something they did for us 50 years ago???? The past is the past, today is today, and today they're harming us, not doing any good.
By comparison it's like telling us that JFK did this country some good so today we should all support the Kennedy. Or like telling us W Bush harmed our economy and sent this country to hell so we should diss our every upcoming Bush generation.
IMO, what UAW should do, just like everyone around us who got laid off is to look at themselves in the mirror and instrospect. And think:
why are we in this condition now? How come we're going down? Why me? What do others do or what can others do that I/we don't have or can't do?
instead of screaming: this economy is bringing us down, the capitalism is killing us, it's their fault not ours, etc etc....
Its the only way to improve, something UAW hopelessly need at this stage.
PS: there really is no point in pointing fingers out and call anyone here capitalist because we're living in a capitalist country. Guess what that makes us? Go figure. :shades:
I really cannot believe you are comparing a teacher to some moron putting cars together. If you had a bad teacher or two and it shows. You can blame it on the teachers Union. They protect worthless teachers the same as the UAW protects worthless auto workers. I really cannot believe I am stooping so low as to get in a debate over Teachers getting more pay than autoworkers. It is so idiotic in its very concept.
I know you have zero respect for automobile industry related skills.
Two weeks max and you can train an illegal to do 95% of the work in an auto factory. The UAW jobs are on the way out. GM has already taken some of that money we gave them to refurbish a factory in Brazil.
I could say the same thing about teaching that 95% of morons could become a teacher thus what's your point??? Don't give me the whole college degree spill because the fact is most people who fail in their profession and couldn't cut it well end up teaching and degrees are a dime a dozen. Your opinion of just how easy most automobile jobs is just plain crazy. Is their some that require not many skills sure but to label 95% 9most) of them in the industry as such again is crazy and let's not forget many require physical strength, motor skills, mechanical aptitude also.
I also must ask gagrice, are you saying the brazilians are dumb unskilled laborers also??? :confuse:
Rocky, You have done nothing to make UAW workers seem worthy of the high wages they get.
Well as I said before look at what they build and how much it costs. Also if you are so damn jealous of automobile workers why didn't you move near a plant and get ya a job back in the day making cars instead of running them in the ground??? :sick: You had the opportunity and I didn't!!!
Just the opposite with those dumb comparisons to school teachers. The same school teachers that have to put up with ignorant children that grow up to be UAW workers.
You are unbelievable!!! I have had several people that agree with me when making the comparison. Yes this has been debated many times here in Michigan and Texas. My multi-millionaire father in-law labels your average teacher as over-paid, unqualified, part-time employees, that have more days off than any other profession. Sure in some states they want to pay them peanuts but here in Michigan, they make more than UAW workers and work only part of the year. What did one poster come up with 18+ weeks off and no over-time or weekends. I as I said am not a hater like you and am happy for them but don't try to say one is over-paid while the other one isn't!!!!
everyone around us who got laid off is to look at themselves in the mirror and instrospect. And think:
I don't think rocklee is that much different than the majority of "strong" union members I've dealt with. The ones I know would look in the mirror and say that the scabs and management are bring this country down. They just don't get it and they don't know that they don't get it. I've looked across the table at them and with all sincerity they have said some of the dumbest things to ever come out of a human's mouth. If anyone can look in a mirror and think that Hoffa was a good man and that the mafia, like the union had it's purpose, then I don't see reflecting as a process that would work.
we're living in a capitalist country.
Not for long. There is a revolt going on and it's being done in a "legal" peaceful maner as only in the US could it happen. Unfortunately this generation won't see the bad to come from it.
Let's see only 2??? Well the public and media disagree's because the 2007 Saturn Aura was car of the year followed by the Malibu in 2008. If I remember correctly the Silverado was Truck of the year in 2007 and the domestics kicked butt the last couple of years at winning awards from so-called independent sources. I know some of them were recommended buys like the VUE. The Enclave, was the hottest vehicle on the market last year and the Soltice/Sky, also got great reviews. The Lincoln MKS, Ford F-150, also come to mind about being top-shelf cars. Name me another car with more technology and gadgets than the MKS???
Also many of the union plants rank among the top in quality, productivity, efficiency, but I guess none of this info. matters because you are anti-union!!!
degrees are a dime a dozen With your address we could send you a penny or two and before long you'd have a dime to buy a dozen degrees. Those would probably help in your job search.
You are unbelievable!!! I have had several people that agree with me when making the comparison I'm sure sitting around the table at break you won't have a lot of friends that would disagree with you.
Don't give me the whole college degree spill because the fact is most people who fail in their profession and couldn't cut it well end up teaching and degrees are a dime a dozen.
Once again you don't state the facts. As of 2002, 26.7% of the population over the age of 25 had a bachelor's or higher. Hardly making degrees a dime a dozen. Add that currently unemployment for those with a degree is under 4% and those w/o is running 12%. Not to mention the stats that show a significant wage gap between those with degrees vs. non degree holders. Keep telling yourself a degree is worthless. All I can add is a college education has paid for itself many times over for my wife and I.
I can perfectly understand what is going on but that doesn't mean I have to agree with it and accept it without a fight. Yes I'm strongly against free-trade of any kind and am a anti-globalist. I am very nationalistic and think we the people need to worry about our selves instead of what's good for the restof the people. I'm tired of kissing Isreals [non-permissible content removed] and sending my tax dollars oversea's to protect them. I'm also tired of illegal aliens coming into my country destroying our healthcare system and taking our jobs which has significantly lowered the standard of living of all. I'm tired of giving foreign companies tax breaks to build plants here while putting my neighbor out of business. I'm tired of the trade deficit and one-way street that the globalist have set up so they can build it in China, and export it to America, duty free. I'm tired of my government not addressing the currency manipulation issue. I'm tired of my country borrowing from our enemy's to grow our economy. I'm tired of funding terrorist in the middle east to fuel my automobile when better technologies were available decades ago but squashed by big oil and politicians.
Put mine fields on our boarder and pull our troops out of all foreign countries. If they want us to stay well they can pay us "X" amount. If Mexico, wants us to harbor their criminals and citizens then they can compensate us with oil and minerals on the cheap!!! I don't want to be forced to learn another language and want my country's culture preserved. If that means shifting away from capitalism to more socialism then I'm for it.
If we did all of the above this whole UAW issue would be a non-issue because even dumb americans could get a good paying job instead of sucking off the system. As Lemko, asked me the other day if crime would go down if people could get a decent job and these empty factories were filled with people instead of falling apart and my answer was absolutely yes!!! Sure things might be a bit more expensive and you might have to wear your clothing a little longer and keep that latest gadget perhaps another year but atleast it was made by your neighbor instead of your enemy. I guess one of the many things I'm most proud of growing up in a union family was the feeling of being a real patriot and was why I jumped into the law enforcement field because of that sense of pride. The UAW, IUE, Teamsters, influence taught me to Buy American, and when you look your neighbors, friends, family, in their eyes and tell them what you purchased from the retailer they know you are purposely supporting an american job.
With your address we could send you a penny or two and before long you'd have a dime to buy a dozen degrees. Those would probably help in your job search.
Well many of the employers I interviewed with are looking for experience over a degree. How many degreed folks actually practice in ther discipline????
I'm sure sitting around the table at break you won't have a lot of friends that would disagree with you.
Excuse me most of my relatives have a college education
Once again you don't state the facts. As of 2002, 26.7% of the population over the age of 25 had a bachelor's or higher.
Wow, that low??? Well 75% of my friends and relatives honestly have a college education. As I told you before diesel, our education system around here is well ran and most people I knew or currently know went to college including many of my relatives.
Well as I said before look at what they build and how much it costs. Also if you are so damn jealous of automobile workers why didn't you move near a plant and get ya a job back in the day making cars instead of running them in the ground???
That is the whole issue here. How much it costs GM and the other domestics to build a vehicle. You seem to think that it is the consumer's fault that the D3 made deals years ago to pay full benefits to the retirees for LIFE. It is not. You seem to blame the car buyers for not liking substandard workmanship by the UAW. Quite frankly after working in a wrecking yard rebuilding transmissions I had absolutely no desire to work in the auto industry. I wanted to be allowed to use my brain as well as my hands and the phone business gave me that opportunity. And yes it does take a strong back to do a lot of things associated with the automobile industry. So does digging ditches.
Wow, that low??? Well 75% of my friends and relatives honestly have a college education.
That's the whole country. Not hard to believe when we have cities like Detroit and Indianapolis, etc. that can't even graduate 1/2 their high schools students.
A college degree is fine, but when you graduate with a student loan debt that's as big as a mortgage and no job prospects, you tend to doubt its value. Fortunately, I went to school when college was still relatively affordable. Mommy and Daddy didn't pay for my education, I did! How did I do it? I was a Teamster! It was the very fact that I had a well-paying union job I was able to afford school. Heck, if I had to work at Wally World, I'd probably still be trying to figure out how I'm going to pay for my second sophomore semester after 25 years!
By the way, to celebrate my success, I bought a brand-new black 1987 Chevrolet Caprice Classic a week after graduation. How could a fresh college graduate do this? See above.
I never said a degree is worthless diesel, but many on here judge people on how smart or educated one is by the "piece of paper"....Hey I respect those of you that obtain that paper but don't try to convince me because you have that paper that you are more deserving of a higher wage or are worth so much more especially when I see so many "underwater basketweaving" degrees and the employee is in a totally opposite field. What makes Joe Six-Pack's paper worth from the university worth more than my certificates and training??? Well to some employers that paper has them convinced you will be a good worker or something. Hell I know people like my step-cousin (if you wanna call him that) graduated a couple years 99' after I did and just like last year got his bachelors degree because he switched fields so many times and the only job he's ever had was working at a drug store in Saugatuck, MI. each summer. He now has a kid or two and is going to Indiana for his Master's degree or something. He has borrowed enough money to buy a McMansion, in gagrice's neighborhood and you are going to tell me I should not only respect this guy but if I was a employer I should him because he lived off of his mommy's nickle??? Yeah a lot of my friends have college degree's diesel, but most obtained them stress free because their parents or grandparents paid their way through college thus perhaps that is why I don't "value" a college degree as much as others on here!!!
Heck, my girlfriend's brother-in-law has a Phd and is always out of work. It must suck to be this educated and chronically unemployed, but he has a very cavalier attitude toward his situation. He's currently living in my girlfriend's mother's house rent free and pays no utilities while sending the bills to girlfriend's mother in Florida. Meanwhile, he leaves his sick wife in Connecticut in their soon-to-be foreclosed house. He's a mooch and a bum! The guy has no social skills and an uncanny knack for upsetting people without trying. The guy sweeping the floors of a Chevy truck plant is worth more to society than this freeloader with a grauduate degree.
That is the whole issue here. How much it costs GM and the other domestics to build a vehicle.
8.4% and those costs are going down. It's not the UAW's faults we have a greed based healthcare industry where it costs 5-10x more here than Canada, for the same pill or a lot more for healthcare insurance because the greedy CEO's, executives, shareholders, got to make such large profits (Tens of Billion$) on everything. It's ridiculous!!! :mad:
you seem to think that it is the consumer's fault that the D3 made deals years ago to pay full benefits to the retirees for LIFE. It is not.
They are partly to blame!!! Californians thought it was cool to buy and drive imports thus the fad took hold in the 80's and by the 90's companies like Toyota, were able to hide their shoddy workmenship by giving their customers free oil changes to fix recalls and not report em' thus giving them a flawless perception. The Japanese, bought our politicans and we tax payers fronted the bill so they could build new modern plants on the cheap and pass RTW laws and also allowed them to manipulate their currency importing 50%+ of their products making $4-13K in profit extra off of the exchange rate..... :mad: :mad: :mad:
You seem to blame the car buyers for not liking substandard workmanship by the UAW.
We made some bad cars and so did the Japanese, which made camcords that wouldn't survive more than a half-dozen rust belt winters before they rusted out with holes the size of softballs. Ask lemko, about how durable his iron is???
Quite frankly after working in a wrecking yard rebuilding transmissions I had absolutely no desire to work in the auto industry. I wanted to be allowed to use my brain as well as my hands and the phone business gave me that opportunity. And yes it does take a strong back to do a lot of things associated with the automobile industry.
If you would take your time and energy and apply it to fighting NAFTA and the WTO then these issues we are talking about might of never been a issue. We wouldn't be asking for loans and we wouldn't have deficit spending because people would be buying stuff and keeping americans working and paying taxes. All I'm saying is chopping down the UAW, bluecollar workers in this country isn't going to solve the big problems I spoke about as we are the majority of people and largest consumer. The more we lose the middleclass, the harder the recovery will be and the D3 can't downsize their way to profitability if no one is working or is underemployed!!! :sick:
So does digging ditches.
They are well compensated...Our road workers are well compensated and I'd dig ditches myself for the money and benefits those guys get!!!
I'm tired of funding terrorist in the middle east to fuel my automobile when better technologies were available decades ago but squashed by big oil and politicians.
For decades GM was larger than the oil companies. So your conspiracy theory holds no water unless you include the automakers in hiding these so called alternatives. It would have been a real apple in the hand for GM to develop the Prius before Toyota. But they did not and Toyota has kicked their butt. Was that the fault of the UAW? Probably not. Though we do not know just what is in some of those 1000s of pages of work rules that have forced companies to go outside the USA for production. It could also be the horrible corporate taxes in the USA pushing companies out of the country.
I know you have bought many things made in China or other countries. I hope you only buy USA made toys for your kids at Christmas. My wife shops on line for American made toys as it is near impossible to buy in any store around here. Nice thing is you don't have to waste terrorist gas to shop.
Most of these toys would never be built in the USA if they had to pay UAW wages to make them. The labor alone on a Teddy Bear would be about $150. American made toys are generally about 3-4 times as much as the Chinese knock-offs. So there is your chance to put your money where your mouth is.
lemko, you proved my point with your post!!! I can't tell you how many bums with college degree's I know. I want my kids to go to Yale, so they can join Skull & Bones, and be connected to the elites!!! I would be afraid it would warp their thinking. I think Wagoner, was a Bones Member.
For decades GM was larger than the oil companies. So your conspiracy theory holds no water unless you include the automakers in hiding these so called alternatives.
So what you are saying is that the Big 3 should of got involved in the energy industry also??? Perhaps, but I don't think anyone could see todays problems way back in the day. We weren't competing really in a global economy.
It would have been a real apple in the hand for GM to develop the Prius before Toyota. But they did not and Toyota has kicked their butt. Was that the fault of the UAW? Probably not. Though we do not know just what is in some of those 1000s of pages of work rules that have forced companies to go outside the USA for production. It could also be the horrible corporate taxes in the USA pushing companies out of the country.
We developed the EV1 but I think it was Jack Smith, who killed it because of cheap fuel prices from big oil!!! Our corporations like GM, barely pay taxes. It's small business that is over-taxed!!!
I know you have bought many things made in China or other countries. I hope you only buy USA made toys for your kids at Christmas. My wife shops on line for American made toys as it is near impossible to buy in any store around here. Nice thing is you don't have to waste terrorist gas to shop.
gagrice, I try to buy american as much as possible as does my brother. We flip things over and look at the labels. He just purchased a Shaver, a couple weeks ago that was made in the USA. I purchased some electric clippers WAHL that were made here about a month or so ago......Thanks for the website!!! When it's my kids birthday's I'll check em' out.
Most of these toys would never be built in the USA if they had to pay UAW wages to make them.
Oh come-on!!! :confuse:
The labor alone on a Teddy Bear would be about $150.
Geeez, you are really crazy sometimes gagrice!!!
American made toys are generally about 3-4 times as much as the Chinese knock-offs. So there is your chance to put your money where your mouth is.
Well that isn't the case in all cases. I read a article the other day on yahoo just how much cheaper it sometimes can be to buy american over foreign for many goods. http://www.howtobuyamerican.com/index.php is a place I've used in the past!!! :shades:
"Back then (in the 1930s) there was no middle class, there was just the working poor," said Art Lowell, 91, one of five surviving members of the "sit-down" strike in Flint, Michigan against General Motors Corp that ran from December 1936 to February 1937. "I'm proud of what we did. We prospered, the company prospered and the country prospered."
Well, I heard a Bratz doll would be $70 if made here, but a least "Little Brittany" would be free of lead paint and other toxic contaminants that would alter my kid's biological chemistry.
Louis Marx and Company was the last great American toy manufacturer. Marx had a lot of cool toys.
You really should read some of your posts. You blame every body and every thing for the demise of the UAW. Never point the finger at the UAW and say that was dumb or that was greed.
don't try to convince me because you have that paper that you are more deserving of a higher wage or are worth so much more
I don't think we could convince you. It is reality. It was reality in 1962 at Pacific Telephone. I could get to 1st level without a degree. Past that they wanted to see a college diploma. They were in a hiring frenzy and a degree was all that was required for a job in management. They would work a couple years as 1st level which is supervisor or foreman. Then up they went to 2nd level and beyond.
Lemko, we had a PHD as Teamster janitor at AT&T Alascom. Best job he ever had. You would see him pushing the broom or floor polisher reading a book. Super bright fellow with ZERO ambition. Lived in an absolute dump without a car. I gave him rides home when I worked swing shift.
It's not the UAW's faults we have a greed based healthcare industry
Of course not. It is never the UAW's fault. How you can say the Health Care is greed based and the UAW is not is mind boggling. Every UAW strike was greed in the last 30 years. The Union workers wanted more. That is greed wanting more than the other guy gets.
If you would take your time and energy and apply it to fighting NAFTA and the WTO then these issues we are talking about might of never been a issue.
Other companies are making money here with those entities in place. Why can't the D3?
They are well compensated...Our road workers are well compensated and I'd dig ditches myself for the money and benefits those guys get!!!
LOL, you really are out of touch with reality. Those are the kind of Union jobs that are destroying America. 3 guys leaning on a shovel and one guy in the hole digging. I am talking about a man digging a 100 foot of 3 foot deep leach lines in a day. My uncle had a Mexican fellow that drove up from TJ every day to work digging through avocado groves where you could not get a backhoe. He paid him twice minimum wage ($2.50 per hr). I got $1.25 as a carpenter's helper. He would dig ditch from the minute he got there for 8 hours straight. My uncle would take him a soda or he would not stop for a break. This guy drove a brand new Ford convertible. My uncle drove a 5 year old Ford stationwagon. That was hard work and one of the reasons I did not want to stay in construction. Even though it paid more than the Telephone Co.
The labor alone on a Teddy Bear would be about $150.
Geeez, you are really crazy sometimes gagrice!!!
Well, if a toy manufacturer used UAW-vintage labor with UAW-sized legacy benefits, it would be good for about two hours of labor. If that teddy bear was hand-made, 2 hours ($70+ per hour total cost) are very easy to imagine. Yeah, it is very possible to have today's $20 Wal-Mart quality teddy bear being sold at $200, if your dreams of high tariffs on everything non-american made were to materialize.
that some of us here are simply incapable of comprehending that a floor sweeper isn't worth the $35/hour that he is paid for sweeping floors in a Ford/GM plant...it is a simple disconnect from all sense of reality...Michigan has been in dreamland since the 50s, and, in the 50s thru the 80s (maybe 90s?) that dreamland was apparently sustainable, simply because the import market share was not large enough to matter, even to the handwriting was on the wall for anyone to see it...but, there are none so blind as those who refuse to see...it is no longer sustainable, and the Wonderland of Michigan is almost dead, definitely on life support...but the union folks are like children, wanting the tooth fairy to keep leaving dollar coins under their pillows for every tooth they lose...
Rocky, you are watching it die, and at no time have you EVER accepted the fact that the UAW dug their own grave...it is always someone else's fault, never the fact that they made junk for decades...like the boy who cried wolf, they kept making trash (except lemko's fleet) and now that they can make a better car, they are too far underwater for anyone to believe them or buy their products...
rock, the union committed suicide, and, like the person who cannot stand to look at themselves in the mirror, you refuse to look and see what they have done to themselves...you seem to be the classic that blames everyone else but are incapable of accepting blame for their position or yours...there are psychological diagnoses for that condition (transference?) or just simply the lack of internal integrity to accept any responsibility whatsoever for your condition or theirs...
The glory days of sitting around your family's dinner table talking about how great it is for unskilled workers to be paid 5 times what they are worth, those days are gone...it will be a challenge in the future, simply because there may still be UAW workers who receive exorbitant pay for the low skilled work they do, but there will be very few of them as more people desert the Big 3...
Many Americans are now aware of just how overpaid the unionites are, and I would bet they resent having their tax money subsidize overpaid unskilled people who can barely read...those Americans bought imports because of, probably, quality issues with Big 3 cars, and now that they know why the union worker ain't worth crap, but paid like a king, they will probably NEVER buy American again...
For that, you can place the blame squarely on the union that you worship like a pagan god...
Heck, you don't need to be in a Union to afford a college degree. I got a starter job with Monsanto who paid for my full tuition and books! Didn't cost me a dime. At the same time, I owned a brand new 1977 Grand Prix. My salary was about $110/week to start and the car cost $6,600 at the time when my salary was around $150/wk.
You don't need mega salaries to make it. Only desire and prudence. You don't need a Union for either one. Particularly not the UAW. Excess just puts a target on your back.
that it is nice IF there is a deep pocket entity that will pay for additional education, whether it be trade school, undergrad college or an advanced degree...but to perpetually whine like a spoiled child that one could not obtain additional education solely because "someone else would not pay for it" is downright greedy and stupid...people go to night school, college part time, student loans, work study, occasional grants and scholarships, etc.
The opportunity for additional education in the USA is unlimited...just cuz it ain't free ain't no reason to whine that you could not get it...it simply means that you did not make it a sufficient priority in your life, since you could not find a sugar daddy to simply give it to you...another example of the welfare, give-it-to-me-for-nothing, entitlement mentality of unionites, who literally believe, deep in their DNA, that somebody owes it to them or they have been deprived of their entitlement...
That is the attitude of the inner city, and it pervades the unionites like a flu epidemic, spreading it worthlessness throughout the land on a daily basis...it is basically, "I didn't get it because you refused to pay for it and pay me to get it"...
Simply the attitude of the lower class welfare recipients that pervade our cities like mold rot...and we are probably stuck with it, like athlete's foot...
I know you and gagrice are always right and I'm always wrong. I don't need to blame the UAW, for their demise and can easily shift the blame to your greedy pseudo-capitalist who make 500 X more than their workers and have every politician bought and paid for. let's kick the bluecollar man down because some chinamen living in a grass hut, eating snakes and rice for every meal will do it cheaper. Let's not improve the standard of living let's lower it for everyone and with that present and past mentality well helps explain today. I am not going to accept or agree that free-market capitalism is good for this country. I think I, lemko, fintail, dallasdude1, cooterbfd, can comprehend quite well what's going on but some of you act like I'm stupid because I don't swallow the globalist B.S. hook, line, and sinker!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
Somebody needs to convince Lou Dobbs, to run and fix america :sick:
What bob will likely say, and I'll be ready to agree with him..., is that he gets paid what the market rate is for his services. So do I. So do the new hires on he UAW contract.
It's the legacy folks - meaning the older ones still working in addition to retirees that have the system mucked up.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
I think I, lemko, fintail, dallasdude1, cooterbfd, can comprehend quite well what's going
They all seem to be doing ok in this global cesspool you would try to portray. The problem is that the UAW has lost jobs for people steadily for 30 years. They peaked in the late 1970s and have gone down hill ever since. Even during your beloved Clinton era the D3 was shedding UAW jobs. Do the UAW leaders ever question why? Why was GM losing market share? It was not because the competition was undercutting on price. A CamCord has been more expensive than the Malibu for years. It is so simple yet you want to blame it on the buyers and the imports. It is the agreements made behind closed doors that created the Ponzi scheme to pay health care for the retirees. You will never convince me that the UAW was not on board with those deals. Now that the cost of health care is creating havoc with those shady deals, the UAW and GM wants the rest of US to subsidize the mess they have made. The simplest solution is to drop the healthcare that is weighing them down. Those under 65 that are not on Medicare can either buy a policy or take a chance they will be healthy till they turn 65. They can always do like those on welfare and the illegals. Just walk into ER and its all free.
Obama did NOT get the country or the Auto industry into the sh*t pit they're in. Boy Wonder (GWB) sleep walked through his entire presidency. You sound like one of those "sour grape" Limbaughterians who are still BITTER about whipping you took in the general elections.
I suspect GM will be forced into Govt. protected Chapter 11, Not sure What to do about Chrysler, since 80% of their product portfolio isn't worth fighting for.
Our failure to provide national Healthcare is the main reason that our major corporations are getting their collective asses handed to then on the world stage. The insurance lobby will continue to brainwash americans into thinking that "Socialized Medicine" is the boogie man in the closet.
90% of all the world's innovations are conceived here in the US, but are exported for manufacture elsewhere.
Even the Raiders could win the superbowl if they're allowed 15 men in the huddle, while the other team has 10.
".....What bob will likely say, and I'll be ready to agree with him..., is that he gets paid what the market rate is for his services. So do I. So do the new hires on he UAW contract."
I would agree with that save one thing. Go into court and try to represent yourself. I know it's not smart. Lawyers don't go to school for 6 years and have to pass a bar that seems to be nearly impossible to pass for nothing. I'm sure Bob has a wealth of knowledge and a personality to boot that is a boon in a court.
But, a valid point is a valid point, no matter who says it, and I get the impression that if esq. doesn't follow your name, then a judge won't listen to a word you say. That isn't fair.
".....The problem is that the UAW has lost jobs for people steadily for 30 years."
Gary, I would argue that this has as much to do with the fact that in the last 30 years we have at least 5 new makes of autos, plus the resurgence of the German makes as anything. Had they been successful in unionizing those companies plants, then the number of jobs lost would be minimal.
Katie Couric may be a worse news anchor than Walter Cronkite, but I'd venture to say that CBS news' lower ratings has more to do with the extra 250 or so cable channels that are now available as opposed to 30 years ago.
Again, that's not to say the UAW has no blame, but I think consumer choice ( more brands) is vastly underrated in this conversation.
>the Auto industry into the sh*t pit they're in. Boy Wonder (GWB) sleep walked through his entire presidency.
Someone reminded me of Janet Reno threatening lending institutions if they didn't lend to people who, well, didn't deserve loans for home mortgages. Did she work for Bush? :P Then there's Dodd, Frank and his boyfriend in Fanny Mae and all sorts of lack of controls.
If the home markets had been turned into a silicon valley blowup, the car sales would have been at a level where GM et al wouldn't be as far into problems--but problems would still be there. The cure is what you mentioned, bankruptcy like restructuring of costs including the high-priced UAW responsibilities.
>provide national Healthcare
The healthcare Daschle slipped into the bill rushed through limits services to those who shouldn't have good medicare care. Is that part of your nationalized healthcare hopes? I hope yourself or your children aren't wanting that specialized medicine or surgery that the government decides isn't warranted because it's too expensive or experimental.
But the foreign car makers have had a different set of responsibilities because of their home countries subsidizing their manufacturing in various ways through the years.
I foresee the continual talking down of the economy future by the president and his cohorts in crime intending to make things as bad as possible to pass legislation and do things to socialize the systems as crises that they have declared. I see one of those crises being the revamping of the auto industry. Do socialized countries have unions in auto plants? This puts the leader into a quandry because of his allegiance to the NEA and UAW for contributions and helping campaign for him.
Our failure to provide national Healthcare is the main reason that our major corporations are getting their collective asses handed to then on the world stage.
Bill Clinton ran on health care. Hired his wife to push it through a DEMOCRAT Congress. So you can blather all you like. It has been tried and it is your party that dropped the ball. Or in my opinion did the right thing. Blaming health care reform on poor management and greedy UAW members is pretty lame.
Even the Raiders could win the superbowl if they're allowed 15 men in the huddle, while the other team has 10.
Then why is GM such a big loser. They have at least twice as many UAW workers as they need to get the job done.
Isn't this forum no longer about the UAU? Hasn't it just become "Rocky's Search for Realty"?
Usually each generation of a family better themselves over previous generations because they have a firmer footing to stand on. It's only natural, and in fact, it is the goal of the previous generation. If the UAW was so successful in providing good paying jobs in the 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's, then why would children of these families not move way forward to become doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc. since their parents could afford the education? Or why did they not pay their own way thru college? Why oh why would they just stay in an unskilled, union job with no hope of escape? Why would these union people not try to better themselves and their children when they know they chose the union because of its shelter, but not opportunity?
Why hide?
Why pass this handicap on to future generations? Did they think reality would not change, and the union job would be there forever? Things change all the time without fail. Nothing stays the same.
Think about it.....Who starts companies like GM or RCA? Is it union members or entrepeneurs who put their minds, butts and money on the line? Don't these companies then hire workers? Does anyone really think that currency manipulation, or buying politicians, or people living in grass huts and eating snakes holds any American down? Does anyone who uses !!!!!!!!! like it is going out of style really think anyone else respects his loud but empty opions?
I have never been a union member, but work as a self-employed Professional Engineer. I put myself thru engineering school. No "mommies nickel", in fact I support Mommy. I earn as much as any lawyer and most doctors. How is this possible without being part of a union?
".....Someone reminded me of Janet Reno threatening lending institutions if they didn't lend to people who, well, didn't deserve loans for home mortgages. Did she work for Bush? Then there's Dodd, Frank and his boyfriend in Fanny Mae and all sorts of lack of controls."
See, this is where we end up in a slippery slope of sorts. We can go back to the Reagan era and the loopholes created that allowed these mortgages to be pagckaged (along with credit card debt) into securities. Sure, there were people who didn't deserve mortgages, but how about the people who had to pay these outrageous prices for houses, because all contractors would build was Mcmansions and people buying smaller or run down houses and adding on or renovating w/o ever living in them and flipping them for big bucks??? There was alot of arguing points that conspired to form this catastrophe. No one single aspect is to blame.
".....Why oh why would they just stay in an unskilled, union job with no hope of escape?"
Unfortunately, not everyone is bright enough for college, and SOMEBODY has to do these jobs. As long as these jobs are here, and as long as companies have high paid lobbyists in DC, there WILL be unions.
".....Think about it.....Who starts companies like GM or RCA? Is it union members or entrepeneurs who put their minds, butts and money on the line? Don't these companies then hire workers?"
True, but if they didn't hire workers, or abused the ones they did hire, they would never have gotten as successful as they did.
".....I earn as much as any lawyer and most doctors. How is this possible without being part of a union?"
Union members don't make that kind of money, contrary to popular belief. With less than 200 hrs of OT, I only nudged $80 grand last year. I'm sure that is a pittance compared to your salary, but that's OK. I'm GLAD you make what you make. MORE POWER TO YOU !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ultimately, it all comes down to trust and faith. If an employee "trusts" their employer and has "faith" that there is a spirit of cooperation between them and their employer to do whats right for the good of the company/industry, then you are less likely to see unionization. If you lose that trust and faith in your employer, and feel that they are disloyal to you or have no regard for you, then you are more likely to unionize. Either that, or you can go elsewhere. Either way, there is a choice to be made.
On the news today, they mentioned the "total compensation" for the average UAW worker is $154/ hour.
For those of you who are not aware of the term "total compensation"... it is calculated by taking all the salary, bonuses, benifets, vacation, reirement...etc and converting into equavilant dollar value. Many large companies use the "total compensation" calculation to determine labor-rate and make other buisness-decesions.
Let me also say that I work for what may be the largest NONunion company on the planet as a software engineer... and my "total compensation" is well below $154/ hour.... At the same time, my corporation still has money in the bank and is not asking for marxist-government handouts.
Thanks Steve, for doing some fact checking pal!!! $154 an hour is $64 an/hr. higher than any previous figure I've heard. :surprise: Fixed News golden boy is out of touch with reality and must really got the anti-union folks pumped up with those numbers!!! :sick:
Gee cooterbfd my boy, why hold yourself back. Get a college degree. Start your own business, whatever that might be. Be an employer. My salary (from my own company) certainly has nothing to do with you. But I ask you "Why be an employee? Why? Why? Why???????" Are you as a person only a "Union Member"?
In other news, UAW rejects stock for VEBA. (Detroit News)
The government needs to tell the union to take the stock or shove their VEBA and union contract right up their....... This mess is going to turn into a $100 billion plus hole. If the union doesn't believe GM can turn around, then they need to go. Create revenue and earnings and the stock will go up, way up. This pretty much proves to me the UAW doesn't believe in compensation based on performance. Just guaranteed hand outs.
The usual advice is to diversify your assets, and not put too much money in the company that employs you. Too much risk if you lose your job and your pension. Think Enron.
Comments
It's just like GM trying to sell Saab or Hummer. Gm thinks they're worth X, but no one is willing to pay X, so GM is overpricing Hummer and Saab. What is Hummer and Saab worth - they're worth what someone else is willing to pay for them.
Perfectly said!!!
Forget overtime or making the kind of wages you and the UAW, made. Do you really believe they would pay some [non-permissible content removed] $100K plus to work for the Telephone company if autoworkers were making $10 an/hr.
No I don't think so, and nor do I think they deserve that much to begin with.
I guess you soon forget all the positives unions have done for working people and all the non-union workers wouldn't have any coat tails to live from to base their wage scales on. We would be one happy 3rd world country and with the decline of union membership so goes the economy!!! The 1950's and 60's when unionization was at it's peak well the american dream was easily achieved!!!!
Here we go again, Rocky. This time machine thing is getting ridiculous. Sure the unions might have done us some good in the 50s-60s, but which union???
Not all unions are bad, like I've always said. However UAW is one of the rotten ones.
Besides, even if UAW DID some good for the society, why should any of us support them for something they did for us 50 years ago???? The past is the past, today is today, and today they're harming us, not doing any good.
By comparison it's like telling us that JFK did this country some good so today we should all support the Kennedy. Or like telling us W Bush harmed our economy and sent this country to hell so we should diss our every upcoming Bush generation.
why are we in this condition now? How come we're going down? Why me? What do others do or what can others do that I/we don't have or can't do?
instead of screaming: this economy is bringing us down, the capitalism is killing us, it's their fault not ours, etc etc....
Its the only way to improve, something UAW hopelessly need at this stage.
PS: there really is no point in pointing fingers out and call anyone here capitalist because we're living in a capitalist country. Guess what that makes us? Go figure. :shades:
I know you have zero respect for automobile industry related skills.
Two weeks max and you can train an illegal to do 95% of the work in an auto factory. The UAW jobs are on the way out. GM has already taken some of that money we gave them to refurbish a factory in Brazil.
I could say the same thing about teaching that 95% of morons could become a teacher thus what's your point??? Don't give me the whole college degree spill because the fact is most people who fail in their profession and couldn't cut it well end up teaching and degrees are a dime a dozen. Your opinion of just how easy most automobile jobs is just plain crazy. Is their some that require not many skills sure but to label 95% 9most) of them in the industry as such again is crazy and let's not forget many require physical strength, motor skills, mechanical aptitude also.
I also must ask gagrice, are you saying the brazilians are dumb unskilled laborers also??? :confuse:
Rocky, You have done nothing to make UAW workers seem worthy of the high wages they get.
Well as I said before look at what they build and how much it costs. Also if you are so damn jealous of automobile workers why didn't you move near a plant and get ya a job back in the day making cars instead of running them in the ground??? :sick: You had the opportunity and I didn't!!!
Just the opposite with those dumb comparisons to school teachers. The same school teachers that have to put up with ignorant children that grow up to be UAW workers.
You are unbelievable!!! I have had several people that agree with me when making the comparison. Yes this has been debated many times here in Michigan and Texas. My multi-millionaire father in-law labels your average teacher as over-paid, unqualified, part-time employees, that have more days off than any other profession. Sure in some states they want to pay them peanuts but here in Michigan, they make more than UAW workers and work only part of the year. What did one poster come up with 18+ weeks off and no over-time or weekends.
I as I said am not a hater like you and am happy for them but don't try to say one is over-paid while the other one isn't!!!!
-Rocky
I don't think rocklee is that much different than the majority of "strong" union members I've dealt with. The ones I know would look in the mirror and say that the scabs and management are bring this country down. They just don't get it and they don't know that they don't get it. I've looked across the table at them and with all sincerity they have said some of the dumbest things to ever come out of a human's mouth. If anyone can look in a mirror and think that Hoffa was a good man and that the mafia, like the union had it's purpose, then I don't see reflecting as a process that would work.
we're living in a capitalist country.
Not for long. There is a revolt going on and it's being done in a "legal" peaceful maner as only in the US could it happen. Unfortunately this generation won't see the bad to come from it.
Also many of the union plants rank among the top in quality, productivity, efficiency, but I guess none of this info. matters because you are anti-union!!!
-Rocky
With your address we could send you a penny or two and before long you'd have a dime to buy a dozen degrees. Those would probably help in your job search.
You are unbelievable!!! I have had several people that agree with me when making the comparison
I'm sure sitting around the table at break you won't have a lot of friends that would disagree with you.
Once again you don't state the facts. As of 2002, 26.7% of the population over the age of 25 had a bachelor's or higher. Hardly making degrees a dime a dozen. Add that currently unemployment for those with a degree is under 4% and those w/o is running 12%. Not to mention the stats that show a significant wage gap between those with degrees vs. non degree holders. Keep telling yourself a degree is worthless. All I can add is a college education has paid for itself many times over for my wife and I.
I can perfectly understand what is going on but that doesn't mean I have to agree with it and accept it without a fight. Yes I'm strongly against free-trade of any kind and am a anti-globalist. I am very nationalistic and think we the people need to worry about our selves instead of what's good for the restof the people. I'm tired of kissing Isreals [non-permissible content removed] and sending my tax dollars oversea's to protect them. I'm also tired of illegal aliens coming into my country destroying our healthcare system and taking our jobs which has significantly lowered the standard of living of all. I'm tired of giving foreign companies tax breaks to build plants here while putting my neighbor out of business. I'm tired of the trade deficit and one-way street that the globalist have set up so they can build it in China, and export it to America, duty free. I'm tired of my government not addressing the currency manipulation issue. I'm tired of my country borrowing from our enemy's to grow our economy. I'm tired of funding terrorist in the middle east to fuel my automobile when better technologies were available decades ago but squashed by big oil and politicians.
Put mine fields on our boarder and pull our troops out of all foreign countries. If they want us to stay well they can pay us "X" amount. If Mexico, wants us to harbor their criminals and citizens then they can compensate us with oil and minerals on the cheap!!! I don't want to be forced to learn another language and want my country's culture preserved. If that means shifting away from capitalism to more socialism then I'm for it.
If we did all of the above this whole UAW issue would be a non-issue because even dumb americans could get a good paying job instead of sucking off the system. As Lemko, asked me the other day if crime would go down if people could get a decent job and these empty factories were filled with people instead of falling apart and my answer was absolutely yes!!! Sure things might be a bit more expensive and you might have to wear your clothing a little longer and keep that latest gadget perhaps another year but atleast it was made by your neighbor instead of your enemy. I guess one of the many things I'm most proud of growing up in a union family was the feeling of being a real patriot and was why I jumped into the law enforcement field because of that sense of pride. The UAW, IUE, Teamsters, influence taught me to Buy American, and when you look your neighbors, friends, family, in their eyes and tell them what you purchased from the retailer they know you are purposely supporting an american job.
-Rocky
Well many of the employers I interviewed with are looking for experience over a degree. How many degreed folks actually practice in ther discipline????
I'm sure sitting around the table at break you won't have a lot of friends that would disagree with you.
Excuse me most of my relatives have a college education
-Rocky
Wow, that low??? Well 75% of my friends and relatives honestly have a college education. As I told you before diesel, our education system around here is well ran and most people I knew or currently know went to college including many of my relatives.
-Rocky
That is the whole issue here. How much it costs GM and the other domestics to build a vehicle. You seem to think that it is the consumer's fault that the D3 made deals years ago to pay full benefits to the retirees for LIFE. It is not. You seem to blame the car buyers for not liking substandard workmanship by the UAW. Quite frankly after working in a wrecking yard rebuilding transmissions I had absolutely no desire to work in the auto industry. I wanted to be allowed to use my brain as well as my hands and the phone business gave me that opportunity. And yes it does take a strong back to do a lot of things associated with the automobile industry. So does digging ditches.
That's the whole country. Not hard to believe when we have cities like Detroit and Indianapolis, etc. that can't even graduate 1/2 their high schools students.
By the way, to celebrate my success, I bought a brand-new black 1987 Chevrolet Caprice Classic a week after graduation. How could a fresh college graduate do this? See above.
-Rocky
I remember those days well. I had a 76 Vette delivered 2 weeks after my graduation. Those were the days!
8.4% and those costs are going down. It's not the UAW's faults we have a greed based healthcare industry where it costs 5-10x more here than Canada, for the same pill or a lot more for healthcare insurance because the greedy CEO's, executives, shareholders, got to make such large profits (Tens of Billion$) on everything. It's ridiculous!!! :mad:
you seem to think that it is the consumer's fault that the D3 made deals years ago to pay full benefits to the retirees for LIFE. It is not.
They are partly to blame!!! Californians thought it was cool to buy and drive imports thus the fad took hold in the 80's and by the 90's companies like Toyota, were able to hide their shoddy workmenship by giving their customers free oil changes to fix recalls and not report em' thus giving them a flawless perception. The Japanese, bought our politicans and we tax payers fronted the bill so they could build new modern plants on the cheap and pass RTW laws and also allowed them to manipulate their currency importing 50%+ of their products making $4-13K in profit extra off of the exchange rate..... :mad: :mad: :mad:
You seem to blame the car buyers for not liking substandard workmanship by the UAW.
We made some bad cars and so did the Japanese, which made camcords that wouldn't survive more than a half-dozen rust belt winters before they rusted out with holes the size of softballs. Ask lemko, about how durable his iron is???
Quite frankly after working in a wrecking yard rebuilding transmissions I had absolutely no desire to work in the auto industry. I wanted to be allowed to use my brain as well as my hands and the phone business gave me that opportunity. And yes it does take a strong back to do a lot of things associated with the automobile industry.
If you would take your time and energy and apply it to fighting NAFTA and the WTO then these issues we are talking about might of never been a issue. We wouldn't be asking for loans and we wouldn't have deficit spending because people would be buying stuff and keeping americans working and paying taxes. All I'm saying is chopping down the UAW, bluecollar workers in this country isn't going to solve the big problems I spoke about as we are the majority of people and largest consumer. The more we lose the middleclass, the harder the recovery will be and the D3 can't downsize their way to profitability if no one is working or is underemployed!!! :sick:
So does digging ditches.
They are well compensated...Our road workers are well compensated and I'd dig ditches myself for the money and benefits those guys get!!!
-Rocky
Western Michigan is a little more afluent than Detriot, pal well except Oakland County!!!
-Rocky
-Rocky
For decades GM was larger than the oil companies. So your conspiracy theory holds no water unless you include the automakers in hiding these so called alternatives. It would have been a real apple in the hand for GM to develop the Prius before Toyota. But they did not and Toyota has kicked their butt. Was that the fault of the UAW? Probably not. Though we do not know just what is in some of those 1000s of pages of work rules that have forced companies to go outside the USA for production. It could also be the horrible corporate taxes in the USA pushing companies out of the country.
I know you have bought many things made in China or other countries. I hope you only buy USA made toys for your kids at Christmas. My wife shops on line for American made toys as it is near impossible to buy in any store around here. Nice thing is you don't have to waste terrorist gas to shop.
http://www.toysamerican.com/
Most of these toys would never be built in the USA if they had to pay UAW wages to make them. The labor alone on a Teddy Bear would be about $150. American made toys are generally about 3-4 times as much as the Chinese knock-offs. So there is your chance to put your money where your mouth is.
-Rocky
So what you are saying is that the Big 3 should of got involved in the energy industry also??? Perhaps, but I don't think anyone could see todays problems way back in the day. We weren't competing really in a global economy.
It would have been a real apple in the hand for GM to develop the Prius before Toyota. But they did not and Toyota has kicked their butt. Was that the fault of the UAW? Probably not. Though we do not know just what is in some of those 1000s of pages of work rules that have forced companies to go outside the USA for production. It could also be the horrible corporate taxes in the USA pushing companies out of the country.
We developed the EV1 but I think it was Jack Smith, who killed it because of cheap fuel prices from big oil!!! Our corporations like GM, barely pay taxes. It's small business that is over-taxed!!!
I know you have bought many things made in China or other countries. I hope you only buy USA made toys for your kids at Christmas. My wife shops on line for American made toys as it is near impossible to buy in any store around here. Nice thing is you don't have to waste terrorist gas to shop.
gagrice, I try to buy american as much as possible as does my brother. We flip things over and look at the labels. He just purchased a Shaver, a couple weeks ago that was made in the USA. I purchased some electric clippers WAHL that were made here about a month or so ago......Thanks for the website!!! When it's my kids birthday's I'll check em' out.
Most of these toys would never be built in the USA if they had to pay UAW wages to make them.
Oh come-on!!! :confuse:
The labor alone on a Teddy Bear would be about $150.
Geeez, you are really crazy sometimes gagrice!!!
American made toys are generally about 3-4 times as much as the Chinese knock-offs. So there is your chance to put your money where your mouth is.
Well that isn't the case in all cases. I read a article the other day on yahoo just how much cheaper it sometimes can be to buy american over foreign for many goods. http://www.howtobuyamerican.com/index.php is a place I've used in the past!!! :shades:
-Rocky
RPT-As UAW faces hard times, pioneers recall glory days (Reuters )
Not many details:
Ford reaches tentative agreement with UAW to modify 2007 labor agreement (Automotive Business Review)
Louis Marx and Company was the last great American toy manufacturer. Marx had a lot of cool toys.
Louis Marx and Company
don't try to convince me because you have that paper that you are more deserving of a higher wage or are worth so much more
I don't think we could convince you. It is reality. It was reality in 1962 at Pacific Telephone. I could get to 1st level without a degree. Past that they wanted to see a college diploma. They were in a hiring frenzy and a degree was all that was required for a job in management. They would work a couple years as 1st level which is supervisor or foreman. Then up they went to 2nd level and beyond.
Lemko, we had a PHD as Teamster janitor at AT&T Alascom. Best job he ever had. You would see him pushing the broom or floor polisher reading a book. Super bright fellow with ZERO ambition. Lived in an absolute dump without a car. I gave him rides home when I worked swing shift.
It's not the UAW's faults we have a greed based healthcare industry
Of course not. It is never the UAW's fault. How you can say the Health Care is greed based and the UAW is not is mind boggling. Every UAW strike was greed in the last 30 years. The Union workers wanted more. That is greed wanting more than the other guy gets.
If you would take your time and energy and apply it to fighting NAFTA and the WTO then these issues we are talking about might of never been a issue.
Other companies are making money here with those entities in place. Why can't the D3?
They are well compensated...Our road workers are well compensated and I'd dig ditches myself for the money and benefits those guys get!!!
LOL, you really are out of touch with reality. Those are the kind of Union jobs that are destroying America. 3 guys leaning on a shovel and one guy in the hole digging. I am talking about a man digging a 100 foot of 3 foot deep leach lines in a day. My uncle had a Mexican fellow that drove up from TJ every day to work digging through avocado groves where you could not get a backhoe. He paid him twice minimum wage ($2.50 per hr). I got $1.25 as a carpenter's helper. He would dig ditch from the minute he got there for 8 hours straight. My uncle would take him a soda or he would not stop for a break. This guy drove a brand new Ford convertible. My uncle drove a 5 year old Ford stationwagon. That was hard work and one of the reasons I did not want to stay in construction. Even though it paid more than the Telephone Co.
Geeez, you are really crazy sometimes gagrice!!!
Well, if a toy manufacturer used UAW-vintage labor with UAW-sized legacy benefits, it would be good for about two hours of labor. If that teddy bear was hand-made, 2 hours ($70+ per hour total cost) are very easy to imagine. Yeah, it is very possible to have today's $20 Wal-Mart quality teddy bear being sold at $200, if your dreams of high tariffs on everything non-american made were to materialize.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Rocky, you are watching it die, and at no time have you EVER accepted the fact that the UAW dug their own grave...it is always someone else's fault, never the fact that they made junk for decades...like the boy who cried wolf, they kept making trash (except lemko's fleet) and now that they can make a better car, they are too far underwater for anyone to believe them or buy their products...
rock, the union committed suicide, and, like the person who cannot stand to look at themselves in the mirror, you refuse to look and see what they have done to themselves...you seem to be the classic that blames everyone else but are incapable of accepting blame for their position or yours...there are psychological diagnoses for that condition (transference?) or just simply the lack of internal integrity to accept any responsibility whatsoever for your condition or theirs...
The glory days of sitting around your family's dinner table talking about how great it is for unskilled workers to be paid 5 times what they are worth, those days are gone...it will be a challenge in the future, simply because there may still be UAW workers who receive exorbitant pay for the low skilled work they do, but there will be very few of them as more people desert the Big 3...
Many Americans are now aware of just how overpaid the unionites are, and I would bet they resent having their tax money subsidize overpaid unskilled people who can barely read...those Americans bought imports because of, probably, quality issues with Big 3 cars, and now that they know why the union worker ain't worth crap, but paid like a king, they will probably NEVER buy American again...
For that, you can place the blame squarely on the union that you worship like a pagan god...
You don't need mega salaries to make it. Only desire and prudence. You don't need a Union for either one. Particularly not the UAW. Excess just puts a target on your back.
Regards,
The opportunity for additional education in the USA is unlimited...just cuz it ain't free ain't no reason to whine that you could not get it...it simply means that you did not make it a sufficient priority in your life, since you could not find a sugar daddy to simply give it to you...another example of the welfare, give-it-to-me-for-nothing, entitlement mentality of unionites, who literally believe, deep in their DNA, that somebody owes it to them or they have been deprived of their entitlement...
That is the attitude of the inner city, and it pervades the unionites like a flu epidemic, spreading it worthlessness throughout the land on a daily basis...it is basically, "I didn't get it because you refused to pay for it and pay me to get it"...
Simply the attitude of the lower class welfare recipients that pervade our cities like mold rot...and we are probably stuck with it, like athlete's foot...
Somebody needs to convince Lou Dobbs, to run and fix america :sick:
-Rocky
-Rocky
It's the legacy folks - meaning the older ones still working in addition to retirees that have the system mucked up.
They all seem to be doing ok in this global cesspool you would try to portray. The problem is that the UAW has lost jobs for people steadily for 30 years. They peaked in the late 1970s and have gone down hill ever since. Even during your beloved Clinton era the D3 was shedding UAW jobs. Do the UAW leaders ever question why? Why was GM losing market share? It was not because the competition was undercutting on price. A CamCord has been more expensive than the Malibu for years. It is so simple yet you want to blame it on the buyers and the imports. It is the agreements made behind closed doors that created the Ponzi scheme to pay health care for the retirees. You will never convince me that the UAW was not on board with those deals. Now that the cost of health care is creating havoc with those shady deals, the UAW and GM wants the rest of US to subsidize the mess they have made. The simplest solution is to drop the healthcare that is weighing them down. Those under 65 that are not on Medicare can either buy a policy or take a chance they will be healthy till they turn 65. They can always do like those on welfare and the illegals. Just walk into ER and its all free.
http://www.foxbghsuit.com/
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/08/monsanto-dumping-posilac.php
http://www.organicconsumers.org/rbghlink.cfm
I suspect GM will be forced into Govt. protected Chapter 11, Not sure What to do about Chrysler, since 80% of their product portfolio isn't worth fighting for.
Our failure to provide national Healthcare is the main reason that our major corporations are getting their collective asses handed to then on the world stage. The insurance lobby will continue to brainwash americans into thinking that "Socialized Medicine" is the boogie man in the closet.
90% of all the world's innovations are conceived here in the US, but are exported for manufacture elsewhere.
Even the Raiders could win the superbowl if they're allowed 15 men in the huddle, while the other team has 10.
Sold to Union Camp and then Int'l Paper. True tree-hugger companies!
Regards,
OW
I would agree with that save one thing. Go into court and try to represent yourself. I know it's not smart. Lawyers don't go to school for 6 years and have to pass a bar that seems to be nearly impossible to pass for nothing. I'm sure Bob has a wealth of knowledge and a personality to boot that is a boon in a court.
But, a valid point is a valid point, no matter who says it, and I get the impression that if esq. doesn't follow your name, then a judge won't listen to a word you say. That isn't fair.
Gary, I would argue that this has as much to do with the fact that in the last 30 years we have at least 5 new makes of autos, plus the resurgence of the German makes as anything. Had they been successful in unionizing those companies plants, then the number of jobs lost would be minimal.
Katie Couric may be a worse news anchor than Walter Cronkite, but I'd venture to say that CBS news' lower ratings has more to do with the extra 250 or so cable channels that are now available as opposed to 30 years ago.
Again, that's not to say the UAW has no blame, but I think consumer choice ( more brands) is vastly underrated in this conversation.
93% is hardly a whipping.
>the Auto industry into the sh*t pit they're in. Boy Wonder (GWB) sleep walked through his entire presidency.
Someone reminded me of Janet Reno threatening lending institutions if they didn't lend to people who, well, didn't deserve loans for home mortgages. Did she work for Bush? :P Then there's Dodd, Frank and his boyfriend in Fanny Mae and all sorts of lack of controls.
If the home markets had been turned into a silicon valley blowup, the car sales would have been at a level where GM et al wouldn't be as far into problems--but problems would still be there. The cure is what you mentioned, bankruptcy like restructuring of costs including the high-priced UAW responsibilities.
>provide national Healthcare
The healthcare Daschle slipped into the bill rushed through limits services to those who shouldn't have good medicare care. Is that part of your nationalized healthcare hopes? I hope yourself or your children aren't wanting that specialized medicine or surgery that the government decides isn't warranted because it's too expensive or experimental.
But the foreign car makers have had a different set of responsibilities because of their home countries subsidizing their manufacturing in various ways through the years.
I foresee the continual talking down of the economy future by the president and his cohorts in crime intending to make things as bad as possible to pass legislation and do things to socialize the systems as crises that they have declared. I see one of those crises being the revamping of the auto industry. Do socialized countries have unions in auto plants? This puts the leader into a quandry because of his allegiance to the NEA and UAW for contributions and helping campaign for him.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Bill Clinton ran on health care. Hired his wife to push it through a DEMOCRAT Congress. So you can blather all you like. It has been tried and it is your party that dropped the ball. Or in my opinion did the right thing. Blaming health care reform on poor management and greedy UAW members is pretty lame.
Even the Raiders could win the superbowl if they're allowed 15 men in the huddle, while the other team has 10.
Then why is GM such a big loser. They have at least twice as many UAW workers as they need to get the job done.
Usually each generation of a family better themselves over previous generations because they have a firmer footing to stand on. It's only natural, and in fact, it is the goal of the previous generation. If the UAW was so successful in providing good paying jobs in the 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's, then why would children of these families not move way forward to become doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc. since their parents could afford the education? Or why did they not pay their own way thru college? Why oh why would they just stay in an unskilled, union job with no hope of escape? Why would these union people not try to better themselves and their children when they know they chose the union because of its shelter, but not opportunity?
Why hide?
Why pass this handicap on to future generations? Did they think reality would not change, and the union job would be there forever? Things change all the time without fail. Nothing stays the same.
Think about it.....Who starts companies like GM or RCA? Is it union members or entrepeneurs who put their minds, butts and money on the line? Don't these companies then hire workers?
Does anyone really think that currency manipulation, or buying politicians, or people living in grass huts and eating snakes holds any American down? Does anyone who uses !!!!!!!!! like it is going out of style really think anyone else respects his loud but empty opions?
I have never been a union member, but work as a self-employed Professional Engineer. I put myself thru engineering school. No "mommies nickel", in fact I support Mommy. I earn as much as any lawyer and most doctors. How is this possible without being part of a union?
See, this is where we end up in a slippery slope of sorts. We can go back to the Reagan era and the loopholes created that allowed these mortgages to be pagckaged (along with credit card debt) into securities. Sure, there were people who didn't deserve mortgages, but how about the people who had to pay these outrageous prices for houses, because all contractors would build was Mcmansions and people buying smaller or run down houses and adding on or renovating w/o ever living in them and flipping them for big bucks??? There was alot of arguing points that conspired to form this catastrophe. No one single aspect is to blame.
Unfortunately, not everyone is bright enough for college, and SOMEBODY has to do these jobs. As long as these jobs are here, and as long as companies have high paid lobbyists in DC, there WILL be unions.
".....Think about it.....Who starts companies like GM or RCA? Is it union members or entrepeneurs who put their minds, butts and money on the line? Don't these companies then hire workers?"
True, but if they didn't hire workers, or abused the ones they did hire, they would never have gotten as successful as they did.
".....I earn as much as any lawyer and most doctors. How is this possible without being part of a union?"
Union members don't make that kind of money, contrary to popular belief. With less than 200 hrs of OT, I only nudged $80 grand last year. I'm sure that is a pittance compared to your salary, but that's OK. I'm GLAD you make what you make. MORE POWER TO YOU !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ultimately, it all comes down to trust and faith. If an employee "trusts" their employer and has "faith" that there is a spirit of cooperation between them and their employer to do whats right for the good of the company/industry, then you are less likely to see unionization. If you lose that trust and faith in your employer, and feel that they are disloyal to you or have no regard for you, then you are more likely to unionize. Either that, or you can go elsewhere. Either way, there is a choice to be made.
For those of you who are not aware of the term "total compensation"... it is calculated by taking all the salary, bonuses, benifets, vacation, reirement...etc and converting into equavilant dollar value. Many large companies use the "total compensation" calculation to determine labor-rate and make other buisness-decesions.
Let me also say that I work for what may be the largest NONunion company on the planet as a software engineer... and my "total compensation" is well below $154/ hour.... At the same time, my corporation still has money in the bank and is not asking for marxist-government handouts.
Beck falsely claimed average UAW worker makes $154 per hour (Media Matters)
In other news, UAW rejects stock for VEBA. (Detroit News)
-Rocky
Rocky is looking for a job.....call him.
The government needs to tell the union to take the stock or shove their VEBA and union contract right up their....... This mess is going to turn into a $100 billion plus hole. If the union doesn't believe GM can turn around, then they need to go. Create revenue and earnings and the stock will go up, way up. This pretty much proves to me the UAW doesn't believe in compensation based on performance. Just guaranteed hand outs.