Lemko and Rocky have this idea that WalMart employees will change if they become unionized. Like there is some level of skill added by being a member of a Union. All it will do is force the elimination of a lot of retirees trying to make ends meet as greeters. Paying someone to say welcome to Walmart for $15 per hour is total lunacy. Most are on SS and are limited to how much they can make before losing SS benefits.
The government and GM's bailout plan calls for Cadillac, Buick, GMC, and Chevy to be a new "good company" and Pontiac, Hummer, Saturn, Saab to be split off into a "bad company". The good company restructures while the bad gets liquidated.
As for Chrysler, the Fiat Deal is currently at 20%. They are basically getting access to US dealerships for free and an interest free six billion dollar loan that doesn't effect them if they go bankrupt. Personally I feel liquidating Chrysler would be best for everyone. It frees up market share, takes power away from the unions, and save the tax payer billions. That being said Canada sounds pretty intent on keeping Chrysler around. If that is the case, let the Canadian government buy Chrysler.
the Canadian Guv-Mint will balk at that kind of talk. It seems the car mags are talking sentimentality when dealing with the possible demise of Chrysler Corp. I know that I will perk my ears up more if Fiat and Chrysler do merge. Purchase anything? Naw-but I like small cars and Chrysler will be able to sell some more interesting small cars if this does occur.
It is indeed the Fiat 500 and Abarth that has stirred interest in the past 2 years about Fiat coming aboard in the States. Now there is an actual mechanism for this to happen, and it is one of the possible bright spots in this U.S. automotive meltdown.
That being said Canada sounds pretty intent on keeping Chrysler around. If that is the case, let the Canadian government buy Chrysler.
It would be cheaper for Canada to hire the 8000 CAW workers as street sweepers and dog catchers. Though animal control may tax their skill level. :shades:
I agree that Fiat brings the only hope, but at 20% it doesn't make sense. They get to take car sales away and if Chrysler goes bankrupt it doesn't affect them. Also the UAW is not forced to renegotiate. Meanwhile the taxpayer writes them a check for $6,000,000,0000. The only Fiats I have seen are on the UK sight and they are busted. http://www.fiat.co.uk/Showroom/#showroom/home
Hopefully, newly hired assembly and other workers would not be motivated to start/restart a union.
As long as the employees were treated well, they wouldn't have the motivation. Had the automakers treated their employees well way back in the 1930s, there would never have been a UAW in the first place.
Wal~Mart employees didn't change, the company did - and for the worse! A lot of older Wal~Mart workers, if any of them are still left, would tell you Wal~Mart was a lot better place to work when Sam Walton was alive compared to now. If Wal~Mart had stuck to its old business model in regard to its employees, maybe there'd be no reason for Wal~Mart workers to unionize. Remember Wal~Mart's old "Bring It Home to America" campaign? Fat chance of ever seeing that again from a sleazy company that's in bed with the Red Chinese! :mad:
Walmart has told business how they have to lower prices to sell to Walmart.
Then they show them how to set up manufacturing for them in China. Walmart has been the main problem with encouraging small companies to go to China over the decade or so.
I believe Ford was the last to unionize only because Old Henry Ford had his own private goon squad led by Harry Bennett, who was no better than a street thug, to beat-up workers.
lemko - Like it or not, we - the good old US of A - is in bed with the Red Chinese! If it weren't for China buying our debt, the USA would be filing for bankruptcy. Ironic isn't it - a country we essentially fought through proxies in Korea and Vietnam is now our banker, and major provider of consumer products.
I can't relate to the union mindset. If you don't produce something, you shouldn't get paid for it. If you produce crap, you shouldn't get paid for it. Capitalism tends to favor this paradigm. Unions may have had a place and a time but I think their days are limited (I hope). Knock Walmart all you want...they seem to have it figured out. Guess this link could be bogus, but it is interesting. This was snitched from an rv.net forum:
"I just read an article where a liberal newspaper sent an undercover guy to do a hit piece on Wal-Mart and he actually was hired and went to work there. He was very surprised at what he found and ended up writing about what a nice place to work it was and how they stressed employee relations. He said that in their 2 day training program they indicted that the average Wal-Mart shopper bought about $200,000 from them and the new employees were told to treat each customers as a $200,000 customer. They also have computerized courses on things important to customers and employees that can be completed that will add to the employees hourly rate. Many of their employees are from Kmart, Target and similar places who find a “home” at Wal-Mart. This made mw think a little different about them. I have shopped and stayed overnight at Wal-Mart all over th country. I have posted the link below and I think it will change the way many of you look at Wal-Mart."
"If you hire people at a Wal~Mart wage, you're going to get a lot of undesirable riff-raff."...and just what do you think populates the UAW now, Shakespearean Orators???...
While unions are not relics of the past, the UAW is, and has been for decades...they have protected the most rotten workers at the expense of any good ones that exist...now they ALL suffer because of the few...the UAW worked really hard to keep drunk workers on the line for TWO YEARS with grievance appeals, and while those appeals proceeded, the worthless worker stayed on the line making more cars...sheer idiocy...and all rocky can do is defend the worthless by saying that he had a house and family to support...how about supporting them with good products made by sober people, or is that too much to ask???
The future looks good...dump the worthless and the rabble-rousers and re-hire the good ones...(The few, the proud, the remaining UAW workers)...
That article was interesting, even if we cannot verify it...but one comment by the author struck me, and it sums up the problem in the USA when folks drop out of school or have no talents worth hiring...
"To my mind, the real scandal is not that a large corporation doesn't pay people more. The scandal is that so many people have so little economic value."...bold is my emphasis...
That is what I have tried to communicate to rocky and other union rah-rahs...the reason most folks are poorly paid is, simply, they have no economic value to speak of...stocking shelves, flipping burgers, is good, honest work, make no mistake about it...but it is a STEPPING STONE to a better job when one is better trained or has more skills...so, the person who has no skills but tries to support a family of four is not ENTITLED to more pay because of his family needs...he should STRIVE for more pay thru further training, education or whatever...but to stand there flipping Big Macs and tell me he is worth $15 or $20 per hour because he has 5 kids, the answer is NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...sweeping the floor does not mandate $20/hour with 10 kids to support...and why did you have 10 kids if you knew you had no skills and no pay to support them???...the onus is on the worker who ignorantly reproduces, not the system to pay him far in excess of his economic worth...
The real crime is the stupid graduates of high school who do not see the need for further training, and then qualify for a sub-prime mortgage loan...oh, wait, that should be coming to an end, soon...
While not everyone is Doctor material or Nuclear Physicist, there are things folks can do after high school to improve themselves, and it does not all require a $100,000 college debt...
Not knowing gagrice's complete background, but I know enough to know he is well trained, whether by school, AT&T, or whoever...his income rose as his skills improved, and he also took the intelligent risk to go where the money was in Alaska...I seem to remember people making great money by going to Alaska to install the Alaska Pipeline, making phenomenal wages for the few years they were up there...great way to earn money for school, a down payment, money for a business, etc...
We make sacrifices when we are younger to improve life when we are older...for those who quit high school and wonder why they go nowhere, that is why...THEY HAVE NO ECONOMIC VALUE TO OFFER ANY EMPLOYER...
What has happened over the last 30 years or so is that this has been intensifying over the decades...in the 50s and 60s (70s?) folks with high school could perform unskilled labor in factories and make money far in excess of their low skill level...as the factories left (often due to unionization) the workers failed to upgrade their skills...now, we still have a population of kids leaving high school, but the jobs for the unskilled are fewer than ever, as there are no factories to absorb them into the economic system...
One could see this coming over the years, as kids majored in courses like basketweaving, art history, history of the Roman Empire, that wasted time in college but probably led to nothing later on (I caution that I do realize that someone could major in art history and minor in computer science and come out of college highly skilled despite a liberal arts major...I majored in psychology, knew it was a worthless major (did not want to teach psych), but took many other courses which, IMO, helped me in grad school become the idiot I am today...)
So, we graduate more unskilled than ever, but have fewer unskilled jobs to offer them...that is the demographic that will have major problems in the future, as they are trapped until they improve their skills...
I think the UAW understands that skills are important as is education. They give out lots of scholarships to kids of members, have (had?) tuition assistance programs and advanced job training (that may be whacked back too, since some of that was offered through the Jobs Bank.
This would be a great segue into the teacher's unions but that's off-topic (plus we already did that).
but it is a STEPPING STONE to a better job when one is better trained or has more skills.
Unskilled UAW workers should have NEVER considered the job permanent. That I blame on the D3 and the UAW. By Rocky's own admission the job will beat you up. Knees replaced etc. That should mean GM and the UAW should have written contracts that allow letting people go when they are no longer able to keep up with the machines and carry the load. If the job had a more realistic pay scale the workers would be more inclined to get training for the years when they could not do the job up to 100%. I can tell you from experience it is hard to leave a job that pays a lot more than average. If the job topped out at $15 per hour and very modest benefits you would not have so many worn out old men hanging on for dear life. Now this false sense of security is biting them in the butt.
GM has gone bankrupt paying unskilled UAW people $100k plus per year with early retirement benefits. Just very poor planning. Or in my opinion no planning at all.
Man, everyone hates the Unions. I guess with unemployment being so high, it just doesn't seem fair for people to be guaranteed their jobs. My current employer cut 5% of the workforce and my last employer cut pay by 10%. Why can't the union do what the rest of the country is doing? :confuse:
Why can't the union do what the rest of the country is doing?
The reason the the Union contract is a legal and binding one between the Company and the Union. The only way to change it is to get a majority of the members of the agreement to agree. Otherwise they have a legal right to sue the company and possibly the Union. This makes it very difficult for companies to change when it becomes apparent they are over paying compared to the non union competition. The jobs are still controlled by supply and demand. So when GM is tied to a UAW contract and Toyota is not. Toyota simply cuts wages and if the workers do not like it they can quit. When Nissan comes in and is able to build a given model for 10% less cost because wages in their area are lower, GM cannot compete.
Of course you have to add the ignorance of GM management over the decades. Jobs bank and health care for life. That was purely poor thinking by management.
"Man, everyone hates the Unions. I guess with unemployment being so high, it just doesn't seem fair for people to be guaranteed their jobs."...
simply because a contractual guarantee sounds great when the company makes money hand over fist...but GM has, depending on who you read, lost $80-100 BILLION in the last 5-10 years...how does ANY company lose that much money and keep that many workers making more product than the market will buy???...you are looking at what a "job guarantee" does to the company and to the workers...had sufficient workers been let go over the years and more plants closed, it might be different...
GM was established to make money...period...jobs flow from profit...no one has a right to a guaranteed job, and anyone who grants that to them is an idiot...GM is the poster child for idiocy in business...one finds it hard to believe that the world's largest corp for many years had the brains of a 4 year old...
They should dump as many workers as they can to downsize to the earlier reco of Chevy/GMC Truck/Buick-Caddy and that's it...not because I say so, because the rest of the organization is simply an anchor that no one wants...
It was a nice run while it lasted...maybe with non-UAW workers, moving all their plants to the South and away from Michigan, their quality on EVERYTHING will skyrocket...wouldn't that be nice???
I understand that. But why can't the UAW look at the big picture at make good will concessions? I don't know anyone in the UAW, is the culture that selfish? Steve you have any insight? Rocky? :confuse:
Now the CEO has been fired and taken $23 million with him as a lovely parting gift, thank you Don Pardo. But he could wind up with lots less depending on his negotiations with the board. KGMB9
can't the UAW look at the big picture at make good will concessions?
You can pretty much see the mentality of the UAW workers that went on strike last year. GM was in the throes of losing $30B+ and those idiots went on strike at the only plants building cars that were selling. Yes I would say the UAW Workforce are not only SELFISH but STUPID.... Unskilled and stupid workers, makes for a company that will not survive. I have a hard time crying for people like that. The workers at the dealers and suppliers that will lose their jobs should be who the government helps. Most make about half the money the UAW workers get and will suffer the most.
dbostondriver: Your opinion of the UAW being selfish may look like that on the outside but if it wasn't for the UAW and other unionized labor pushing the "Buy American" campaign for all these years well the Big 3 would of been in even worse shape. The most loyal group of people that a company can count on is the union worker who attends union meetings and drinks the Kool-Aid of believing in what they build.
Marsha7: I haven't been involved on the forum today because I'm licking my wounds today after being fired. Marsha7, I took your advice of telling them we had the wrong inventory and stood up and gave my opinion but those few words supposedly lead to me being fired. I guess I had the false impression that change was welcomed and despite I doing it in a respectful matter and tone that didn't matter. Bottom line is I worked my [non-permissible content removed] off for nothing. I helped jump start there internet program and tried to get the place organized so we knew what cars were old inventory and had the extra incentives. None of those accomplishments in my short stay meant anything. :sick:
I am sort of known in the car buiz and perhaps somebody had loose lips at the dealership I applied at and said I interviewed there and it got back to management??? I probably will never know the truth but none of that matters now. So after keying up the cars the cars this morning and getting ready to follow up with my customers I noticed someone was snooping in my client box. I also was informed by coworkers that they heard I quit yesterday. I was like say what??? Nobody there knew about my interview either. I prayed a lot last night for an answer and well I got one!!! The sad thing is my sales manager left it up to my F&I to do the dirty work because he wasn't there. :sick:
What concessions have the retirees and oldtimers made? The only concessions affect those laid off and the new hires. Did the people making $30 per hour get any pay cuts? Do the retirees now pay half their gold plated health care with Viagra supplement? Jobs bank will mainly affect the short timers that get laid off. Layoffs are by seniority. I would bet if a worker in a plant that closes has more seniority than a worker in a plant still open, he can bump into that job. At least that is the way most Union contracts are written.
I imagine that $23 million that Wagoner gets as parting gift was written in years ago. You can add that to the management column of stupid mistakes.
Wagoner, deserves the $23 million. He tried his best and has said publicly for years that american manufacturing will not survive no matter what if the playing field remains unlevel.
Retirees started paying paying monthly contributions, annual deductibles and co-payments for some medical services up to a maximum of $370 a year for individuals and $752 for a family in '06 or so.
There's likely more, but that was just a quick hit. (link)
There are several concessions the UAW made which would save GM billions and they were on the right path to recovery until Wall Street ruined our economy. '
Retirees started paying paying monthly contributions, annual deductibles and co-payments for some medical services up to a maximum of $370 a year for individuals and $752 for a family in '06 or so.
And you do not consider that Gold plated? Our Teamster plan was like $4000 max in a year while we were still working. We paid 30% of all medical up to that limitation. That plan cost our company close to a $1000 per month. Can you just imagine what GM is paying for a plan that has a $370 out of pocket maximum?
I well remember when all the Unions took big pay cuts in the 1980s. It was tough. So far I have not read of ANY pay cuts by the senior workforce. 25% would have been a good start in the 2005 contracts. I think it is too late for concessions. They have cooked the Golden Goose and ate em'.
There are several concessions the UAW made which would save GM billions
All in the future when they can rid themselves of the high paid old timers. The $15 per hour starting pay for new hires is meaningless when they are not hiring. They are still laying off workers.
Rocky, I do feel bad for you losing your job. My guess is the guy you interviewed with called to check you out with your boss. Common practice in the real world. They will spill their guts "OFF THE RECORD". I can hear your boss. He is a hard worker but wants to run the business. It could have been speaking out in the meeting as well. Bosses hate underlings telling them what they need to do with the business. One place the Union saved my butt a couple times very early on. Before I learned to just go along and play their silly little management games. I can see as a salesman in this market where not having what the buyer wants would be frustrating. Hope you get the Hyundai job with a higher class of people.
PS Working for a family run business is the WORST. They will stick together and crap on the outsider. No matter who is right.
You asked what concessions have the retirees and old timers made. I found some in a two second search. I can't help it if the UAW leaders are better negotiators than the Teamsters. :shades:
Rock, Shifty sure is around - you usually can find him over in Classic Cars.
All in the future when they can rid themselves of the high paid old timers. The $15 per hour starting pay for new hires is meaningless when they are not hiring. They are still laying off workers.
True, but that is why they pushed the VEBA plan so hard well until the market fell apart
Rocky, I do feel bad for you losing your job. My guess is the guy you interviewed with called to check you out with your boss.
I appreciate it gagrice. It stinks because I'm not sure if I would of left pal. I was pondering it pretty hard yesterday. I called up friends, family, for direction. We talked about the pro's and con's. I called the dealership I applied at and told them I was fired and I think it's possible that someone did as you said followed up with my boss "off the record"
I can hear your boss. He is a hard worker but wants to run the business. It could have been speaking out in the meeting as well. Bosses hate underlings telling them what they need to do with the business. One place the Union saved my butt a couple times very early on.
I never wanted to run the business. I just didn't want to see it fail. It was costing me sales which affects my pocket book. If a nice guy like myself can't speak out in a respectful manner to disagree with the way things are going well that is pretty sad. I was the only salesman without a demo and it kinda chapped my [non-permissible content removed] because I was doing the most grunt work out of the sales staff. The guy that started the same day as me didn't bring to the table anymore than I did yet because they felt sorry for him for not owning a car well they gave him one. I could of used the UAW today!!!
Before I learned to just go along and play their silly little management games. I can see as a salesman in this market where not having what the buyer wants would be frustrating. Hope you get the Hyundai job with a higher class of people.
Well I'm happy to see that you can understand my position. They will be out of business in under a year if they keep going on the way they are. I told my business manager that I've worked for 2 dealerships that closed because they didn't want to adapt to the wants and needs of the customer. You can't have 10 of the same car and expect to suceed. Most of the recent sales in new cars were dealer trades. Unless you have a loyal repeat customer taking such a position will kill you. Beth, said if it wasn't for her diverse inventory she would of never sold close to 20 cars last month. I hope Hyundai, buyers are higher class of people. I hope the same goes for Nissan. I want to take a Nissan 370Z for a test drive. They are one of the best looking sports cars in the world IMHO. Of course Dodge and Jeep, have some pretty good incentive programs going on now but the Holland, economy will be a tough market due to the job losses.
PS Working for a family run business is the WORST. They will stick together and crap on the outsider. No matter who is right.
I have learned that lesson in my past work experience. If a company is too shallow to take constructive criticism and can't handle someone having enough hair to speak up about the problems at hand they are doomed. I'm the one meeting and greeting the customers. If I can't satisfy there wants and needs today well the next guy will and there lies the problem gagrice.
Thanks Steve. I just haven't seen him around but of course I haven't jumped around in a long time.
I wouldn't say the UAW are better negotiators than the Teamsters. Gagrice, had the ultimate platinum plated union job. I'm not sure if one exists that paid better or had more perks than his telephone job.
Sorry about the job, Rock. But, if there's a reason for everything, hopefully soon you'll be driving your new 370Z!
Sorry, Waggoner isn't worth $23mil. As noted, under his guidance, GM never made money. If losing billions is worth $23mm, what would a CEO who actually turned a profit have been worth, a billion? Maybe just given the entire Pontiac division as a gift? That kind of severance just continues to point to the terrible management/BOD at GM... Really, another bean counter running the show? Great...
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
I can't help it if the UAW leaders are better negotiators than the Teamsters.
The Teamsters gained 80,000 new members in 2008. How many did the UAW lose? Yes the UAW have negotiated the US auto industry into bankruptcy. Not the heritage that Reuther had in mind. He wanted to parlay the UAW into the leaders of a USSR type regime.
Sorry, Waggoner isn't worth $23mil. As noted, under his guidance, GM never made money. If losing billions is worth $23mm, what would a CEO who actually turned a profit have been worth, a billion? Maybe just given the entire Pontiac division as a gift? That kind of severance just continues to point to the terrible management/BOD at GM... Really, another bean counter running the show? Great...
Well maybe I'm wrong as nobody is worth $23 million but my point was I respectfully disagree regarding Wagoner. He had issues he couldn't control. If our government was more protectionist towards business and worker we wouldn't be going through these problems. This is what free-market (well free for one side) capitalism gets you. You might be able to buy some of your stuff cheaper but the consquence is your job or at least someone you know!!! :sick:
Sorry about the job, Rock. But, if there's a reason for everything, hopefully soon you'll be driving your new 370Z!
Thanks. Hopefully I will get it. They don't do demo's at the dealership I applied at.... but hey if I "Rock-On" assuming I were to get it well they might reconsider giving me a demo as a reward. If I had any choice on the namplates they sell well my #1 pick would either be the 370Z or Genesis 4.6 V8 Sedan loaded up well at least for the summer. I probably could get away with driving the Genesis year around.
I read earlier our good buddy lemko, has been hanging around the Genesis forum. Ummmm if GM, were to go BK could I pencil him in for a Genesis as his next car is what I think OW is saying??? :P ....I know imidazol97, will be right behind him making the trip to come see me!!! :shades: :shades: :shades:
Oh stop it gagrice. The UAW aren't communist. They are only asking for a level playing field to compete on and not sacrifice the standard of living "American Dream" of the citizens of this country just so we can compete with the slave labor wages of China.
-Rocky
P.S. I wasn't aware you owned a Ranger. :surprise: Can I also pencil you in for a Genesis, to replace the tired out Lexus??? :P
Gagrice, had the ultimate platinum plated union job.
Our company was a small telephone co-operative. Meaning all records were in the public domain. So we did the research and had all the facts at negotiation time. Our business agent was rarely involved in our contract negotiations. When times were tough we gave some back. That is something that did not happen when GM starting losing big time in 2004. The 2005 contract concessions were all in the future. GM needed big solutions then not in 2012. Now they may be too late. In 25 years we only got tough one time. And that was over a boss that thought he could bust the Union. He's gone and the Union is still there. The company had a much bigger turnover in management than the Union workers. Only one of our original guys left. I talked to him today. He is going to retire on his 65th birthday. He could have retired 10 years ago. Just thought he could change things. Kind of like you Rocky. He is my best friend, even though he leans more to the left than I do. He and I were shop stewards together for much of our 37 years working together. He is the only thing I miss being retired.
Sadly the Lexus still runs great. It is 20 years old this year. I did look at the Genesis. It is a pretty car in my eyes.
Reuther was a communist. His ties to the Soviet Union were well documented and not good. There really is no such thing as a level playing field. The UAW was trying to build a workers Utopia and failed miserably. You cannot kill the company and still have jobs. The UAW has not learned that simple lesson. Another simple lesson. You cannot compete against Chinese labor and be profitable. You have to design the products and let them build them. It is so simple yet many here fail to see the reality as it is.
The Union mantra is all people are equal. That is so wrong. All people should have equal rights to excel at whatever they choose. The Unions kill that incentive to excel.
"UAW officials remain supportive of the president. They view his tough talk and bankruptcy threats as posturing to put more pressure on the bondholders to forgive debts, said a person familiar with the view of UAW leadership.
When the economy recovers and Obama is under less political pressure, the UAW plans to ask him for billions in federal funding for a retiree health-care trust, said the person who asked not to be identified revealing internal union discussions."
Well invite him to Hawaii. I bet you guys would have a great time laughing and joking about the good ol' days. I assume you still have your home in Hawaii, eh??? If I was in your shoes I would be spending a great deal of time sipping on tropical drinks in paradise!!!
Sadly the Lexus still runs great. It is 20 years old this year. I did look at the Genesis. It is a pretty car in my eyes.
I've been studying up on it just in case!!!
Reuther was a communist. His ties to the Soviet Union were well documented and not good.
Got a reliable source??? :surprise:
There really is no such thing as a level playing field. The UAW was trying to build a workers Utopia and failed miserably. You cannot kill the company and still have jobs.
So it is the UAW's fault that we would be lucky to sell only 8 or 9 million new cars this year??? You sound like you are blaming them more than Wall Street. :sick:
The UAW has not learned that simple lesson. Another simple lesson. You cannot compete against Chinese labor and be profitable. You have to design the products and let them build them. It is so simple yet many here fail to see the reality as it is. You have to design the products and let them build them. It is so simple yet many here fail to see the reality as it is.
Isn't that why your hero Hunter, wanted to implement "protectionist" clauses not only to save american manufacturing jobs but also for national security issues??? Why does he think it's a bad idea to continue on this path but you see this current trade policy that is costing us millions of jobs as good economics??? :confuse:
The Union mantra is all people are equal. That is so wrong. All people should have equal rights to excel at whatever they choose. The Unions kill that incentive to excel.
You almost sound like one of those capitalist professors that is "brain washing" our youth into believing we are going to be "safer" and rid the world of "violence" by building other economies around the globe. Barry Obama, thinks the same thing or as long as the Chinese, keep loaning him money. The bottom line any way this ends up it's going to kill our manufacturing base and standard of living. I guess as people stand in soup lines and ask what happened well a few of us will say I told you so!!!! :mad: :surprise: :sick:
As long as those new hires are at least as well-paid as the transplants. If you hire people at a Wal~Mart wage, you're going to get a lot of undesirable riff-raff.
GM has a lot of undesirable riff-raff at UAW wages already.
The reason the the Union contract is a legal and binding one between the Company and the Union. The only way to change it is to get a majority of the members of the agreement to agree. Otherwise they have a legal right to sue the company and possibly the Union. This makes it very difficult for companies to change when it becomes apparent they are over paying compared to the non union competition. The jobs are still controlled by supply and demand. So when GM is tied to a UAW contract and Toyota is not. Toyota simply cuts wages and if the workers do not like it they can quit. When Nissan comes in and is able to build a given model for 10% less cost because wages in their area are lower, GM cannot compete.
This is a fundamental problem with unions. If you are a good CEO you are there to maintain the health and profitability of the company. If you are handicapped by the situation above, and your competitors can undercut your costs, what do you do? You choose one or more of the following:
1 - Cut content to keep vehicle prices competitive (they've done this) 2 - Outsource manufacturing to cheaper locations (Mexico, etc.) 3 - Focus on higher margin vehicles (SUVs, Trucks) 4 - Advertise to the patriotic citizens and shame them into buying your vehicles just because of the US nameplate rather than on price or quality.
The union hates #2 above, and #1 causes loss of market share over time, #3 puts the company in a very vulnerable place when gas prices go up or the economy tanks, and #4 has been done to death. The high union costs have contributed to exactly where we are today! Due to the contracts, the company's flexibility has been totally crippled!
Rocky, sorry about that. We are pulling for you here, even when we don't always agree with you. We wish you the best of luck. Sometimes the bad situations turn into blessings in disguise - hope this is one of those!
Comments
The government and GM's bailout plan calls for Cadillac, Buick, GMC, and Chevy to be a new "good company" and Pontiac, Hummer, Saturn, Saab to be split off into a "bad company". The good company restructures while the bad gets liquidated.
As for Chrysler, the Fiat Deal is currently at 20%. They are basically getting access to US dealerships for free and an interest free six billion dollar loan that doesn't effect them if they go bankrupt.
Personally I feel liquidating Chrysler would be best for everyone. It frees up market share, takes power away from the unions, and save the tax payer billions. That being said Canada sounds pretty intent on keeping Chrysler around. If that is the case, let the Canadian government buy Chrysler.
It is indeed the Fiat 500 and Abarth that has stirred interest in the past 2 years about Fiat coming aboard in the States. Now there is an actual mechanism for this to happen, and it is one of the possible bright spots in this U.S. automotive meltdown.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
It would be cheaper for Canada to hire the 8000 CAW workers as street sweepers and dog catchers. Though animal control may tax their skill level. :shades:
They get to take car sales away and if Chrysler goes bankrupt it doesn't affect them.
Also the UAW is not forced to renegotiate.
Meanwhile the taxpayer writes them a check for $6,000,000,0000.
The only Fiats I have seen are on the UK sight and they are busted.
http://www.fiat.co.uk/Showroom/#showroom/home
As long as the employees were treated well, they wouldn't have the motivation. Had the automakers treated their employees well way back in the 1930s, there would never have been a UAW in the first place.
Then they show them how to set up manufacturing for them in China. Walmart has been the main problem with encouraging small companies to go to China over the decade or so.
When did the unions form at Ford?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
"I just read an article where a liberal newspaper sent an undercover guy to do a hit piece on Wal-Mart and he actually was hired and went to work there. He was very surprised at what he found and ended up writing about what a nice place to work it was and how they stressed employee relations. He said that in their 2 day training program they indicted that the average Wal-Mart shopper bought about $200,000 from them and the new employees were told to treat each customers as a $200,000 customer. They also have computerized courses on things important to customers and employees that can be completed that will add to the employees hourly rate. Many of their employees are from Kmart, Target and similar places who find a “home” at Wal-Mart. This made mw think a little different about them. I have shopped and stayed overnight at Wal-Mart all over th country. I have posted the link below and I think it will change the way many of you look at Wal-Mart."
http://www.nypost.com/seven/02072009/postopinion/opedcolumnists/fly_on_the_wal_1- 54007.htm?page=0
While unions are not relics of the past, the UAW is, and has been for decades...they have protected the most rotten workers at the expense of any good ones that exist...now they ALL suffer because of the few...the UAW worked really hard to keep drunk workers on the line for TWO YEARS with grievance appeals, and while those appeals proceeded, the worthless worker stayed on the line making more cars...sheer idiocy...and all rocky can do is defend the worthless by saying that he had a house and family to support...how about supporting them with good products made by sober people, or is that too much to ask???
The future looks good...dump the worthless and the rabble-rousers and re-hire the good ones...(The few, the proud, the remaining UAW workers)...
"To my mind, the real scandal is not that a large corporation doesn't pay people more. The scandal is that so many people have so little economic value."...bold is my emphasis...
That is what I have tried to communicate to rocky and other union rah-rahs...the reason most folks are poorly paid is, simply, they have no economic value to speak of...stocking shelves, flipping burgers, is good, honest work, make no mistake about it...but it is a STEPPING STONE to a better job when one is better trained or has more skills...so, the person who has no skills but tries to support a family of four is not ENTITLED to more pay because of his family needs...he should STRIVE for more pay thru further training, education or whatever...but to stand there flipping Big Macs and tell me he is worth $15 or $20 per hour because he has 5 kids, the answer is NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...sweeping the floor does not mandate $20/hour with 10 kids to support...and why did you have 10 kids if you knew you had no skills and no pay to support them???...the onus is on the worker who ignorantly reproduces, not the system to pay him far in excess of his economic worth...
The real crime is the stupid graduates of high school who do not see the need for further training, and then qualify for a sub-prime mortgage loan...oh, wait, that should be coming to an end, soon...
While not everyone is Doctor material or Nuclear Physicist, there are things folks can do after high school to improve themselves, and it does not all require a $100,000 college debt...
Not knowing gagrice's complete background, but I know enough to know he is well trained, whether by school, AT&T, or whoever...his income rose as his skills improved, and he also took the intelligent risk to go where the money was in Alaska...I seem to remember people making great money by going to Alaska to install the Alaska Pipeline, making phenomenal wages for the few years they were up there...great way to earn money for school, a down payment, money for a business, etc...
We make sacrifices when we are younger to improve life when we are older...for those who quit high school and wonder why they go nowhere, that is why...THEY HAVE NO ECONOMIC VALUE TO OFFER ANY EMPLOYER...
What has happened over the last 30 years or so is that this has been intensifying over the decades...in the 50s and 60s (70s?) folks with high school could perform unskilled labor in factories and make money far in excess of their low skill level...as the factories left (often due to unionization) the workers failed to upgrade their skills...now, we still have a population of kids leaving high school, but the jobs for the unskilled are fewer than ever, as there are no factories to absorb them into the economic system...
One could see this coming over the years, as kids majored in courses like basketweaving, art history, history of the Roman Empire, that wasted time in college but probably led to nothing later on (I caution that I do realize that someone could major in art history and minor in computer science and come out of college highly skilled despite a liberal arts major...I majored in psychology, knew it was a worthless major (did not want to teach psych), but took many other courses which, IMO, helped me in grad school become the idiot I am today...)
So, we graduate more unskilled than ever, but have fewer unskilled jobs to offer them...that is the demographic that will have major problems in the future, as they are trapped until they improve their skills...
This would be a great segue into the teacher's unions but that's off-topic (plus we already did that).
Unskilled UAW workers should have NEVER considered the job permanent. That I blame on the D3 and the UAW. By Rocky's own admission the job will beat you up. Knees replaced etc. That should mean GM and the UAW should have written contracts that allow letting people go when they are no longer able to keep up with the machines and carry the load. If the job had a more realistic pay scale the workers would be more inclined to get training for the years when they could not do the job up to 100%. I can tell you from experience it is hard to leave a job that pays a lot more than average. If the job topped out at $15 per hour and very modest benefits you would not have so many worn out old men hanging on for dear life. Now this false sense of security is biting them in the butt.
GM has gone bankrupt paying unskilled UAW people $100k plus per year with early retirement benefits. Just very poor planning. Or in my opinion no planning at all.
My current employer cut 5% of the workforce and my last employer cut pay by 10%. Why can't the union do what the rest of the country is doing? :confuse:
The reason the the Union contract is a legal and binding one between the Company and the Union. The only way to change it is to get a majority of the members of the agreement to agree. Otherwise they have a legal right to sue the company and possibly the Union. This makes it very difficult for companies to change when it becomes apparent they are over paying compared to the non union competition. The jobs are still controlled by supply and demand. So when GM is tied to a UAW contract and Toyota is not. Toyota simply cuts wages and if the workers do not like it they can quit. When Nissan comes in and is able to build a given model for 10% less cost because wages in their area are lower, GM cannot compete.
Of course you have to add the ignorance of GM management over the decades. Jobs bank and health care for life. That was purely poor thinking by management.
simply because a contractual guarantee sounds great when the company makes money hand over fist...but GM has, depending on who you read, lost $80-100 BILLION in the last 5-10 years...how does ANY company lose that much money and keep that many workers making more product than the market will buy???...you are looking at what a "job guarantee" does to the company and to the workers...had sufficient workers been let go over the years and more plants closed, it might be different...
GM was established to make money...period...jobs flow from profit...no one has a right to a guaranteed job, and anyone who grants that to them is an idiot...GM is the poster child for idiocy in business...one finds it hard to believe that the world's largest corp for many years had the brains of a 4 year old...
They should dump as many workers as they can to downsize to the earlier reco of Chevy/GMC Truck/Buick-Caddy and that's it...not because I say so, because the rest of the organization is simply an anchor that no one wants...
It was a nice run while it lasted...maybe with non-UAW workers, moving all their plants to the South and away from Michigan, their quality on EVERYTHING will skyrocket...wouldn't that be nice???
I don't know anyone in the UAW, is the culture that selfish? Steve you have any insight? Rocky? :confuse:
Now the CEO has been fired and taken $23 million with him as a lovely parting gift, thank you Don Pardo. But he could wind up with lots less depending on his negotiations with the board. KGMB9
Who's selfish?
You can pretty much see the mentality of the UAW workers that went on strike last year. GM was in the throes of losing $30B+ and those idiots went on strike at the only plants building cars that were selling. Yes I would say the UAW Workforce are not only SELFISH but STUPID.... Unskilled and stupid workers, makes for a company that will not survive. I have a hard time crying for people like that. The workers at the dealers and suppliers that will lose their jobs should be who the government helps. Most make about half the money the UAW workers get and will suffer the most.
Marsha7: I haven't been involved on the forum today because I'm licking my wounds today after being fired. Marsha7, I took your advice of telling them we had the wrong inventory and stood up and gave my opinion but those few words supposedly lead to me being fired. I guess I had the false impression that change was welcomed and despite I doing it in a respectful matter and tone that didn't matter. Bottom line is I worked my [non-permissible content removed] off for nothing. I helped jump start there internet program and tried to get the place organized so we knew what cars were old inventory and had the extra incentives. None of those accomplishments in my short stay meant anything. :sick:
I am sort of known in the car buiz and perhaps somebody had loose lips at the dealership I applied at and said I interviewed there and it got back to management??? I probably will never know the truth but none of that matters now. So after keying up the cars the cars this morning and getting ready to follow up with my customers I noticed someone was snooping in my client box. I also was informed by coworkers that they heard I quit yesterday. I was like say what??? Nobody there knew about my interview either. I prayed a lot last night for an answer and well I got one!!! The sad thing is my sales manager left it up to my F&I to do the dirty work because he wasn't there. :sick:
Life goes on........
-Rocky
What concessions have the retirees and oldtimers made? The only concessions affect those laid off and the new hires. Did the people making $30 per hour get any pay cuts? Do the retirees now pay half their gold plated health care with Viagra supplement? Jobs bank will mainly affect the short timers that get laid off. Layoffs are by seniority. I would bet if a worker in a plant that closes has more seniority than a worker in a plant still open, he can bump into that job. At least that is the way most Union contracts are written.
I imagine that $23 million that Wagoner gets as parting gift was written in years ago. You can add that to the management column of stupid mistakes.
-Rocky
-Rocky
There's likely more, but that was just a quick hit. (link)
Steve, is Mr. Shiftright still a host???
And you do not consider that Gold plated? Our Teamster plan was like $4000 max in a year while we were still working. We paid 30% of all medical up to that limitation. That plan cost our company close to a $1000 per month. Can you just imagine what GM is paying for a plan that has a $370 out of pocket maximum?
I well remember when all the Unions took big pay cuts in the 1980s. It was tough. So far I have not read of ANY pay cuts by the senior workforce. 25% would have been a good start in the 2005 contracts. I think it is too late for concessions. They have cooked the Golden Goose and ate em'.
All in the future when they can rid themselves of the high paid old timers. The $15 per hour starting pay for new hires is meaningless when they are not hiring. They are still laying off workers.
Rocky, I do feel bad for you losing your job. My guess is the guy you interviewed with called to check you out with your boss. Common practice in the real world. They will spill their guts "OFF THE RECORD". I can hear your boss. He is a hard worker but wants to run the business. It could have been speaking out in the meeting as well. Bosses hate underlings telling them what they need to do with the business. One place the Union saved my butt a couple times very early on. Before I learned to just go along and play their silly little management games. I can see as a salesman in this market where not having what the buyer wants would be frustrating. Hope you get the Hyundai job with a higher class of people.
PS
Working for a family run business is the WORST. They will stick together and crap on the outsider. No matter who is right.
Rock, Shifty sure is around - you usually can find him over in Classic Cars.
True, but that is why they pushed the VEBA plan so hard well until the market fell apart
Rocky, I do feel bad for you losing your job. My guess is the guy you interviewed with called to check you out with your boss.
I appreciate it gagrice.
I can hear your boss. He is a hard worker but wants to run the business. It could have been speaking out in the meeting as well. Bosses hate underlings telling them what they need to do with the business. One place the Union saved my butt a couple times very early on.
I never wanted to run the business. I just didn't want to see it fail. It was costing me sales which affects my pocket book. If a nice guy like myself can't speak out in a respectful manner to disagree with the way things are going well that is pretty sad. I was the only salesman without a demo and it kinda chapped my [non-permissible content removed] because I was doing the most grunt work out of the sales staff. The guy that started the same day as me didn't bring to the table anymore than I did yet because they felt sorry for him for not owning a car well they gave him one. I could of used the UAW today!!!
Before I learned to just go along and play their silly little management games. I can see as a salesman in this market where not having what the buyer wants would be frustrating. Hope you get the Hyundai job with a higher class of people.
Well I'm happy to see that you can understand my position. They will be out of business in under a year if they keep going on the way they are. I told my business manager that I've worked for 2 dealerships that closed because they didn't want to adapt to the wants and needs of the customer. You can't have 10 of the same car and expect to suceed. Most of the recent sales in new cars were dealer trades. Unless you have a loyal repeat customer taking such a position will kill you. Beth, said if it wasn't for her diverse inventory she would of never sold close to 20 cars last month.
PS
Working for a family run business is the WORST. They will stick together and crap on the outsider. No matter who is right.
I have learned that lesson in my past work experience. If a company is too shallow to take constructive criticism and can't handle someone having enough hair to speak up about the problems at hand they are doomed. I'm the one meeting and greeting the customers. If I can't satisfy there wants and needs today well the next guy will and there lies the problem gagrice.
-Rocky
I wouldn't say the UAW are better negotiators than the Teamsters. Gagrice, had the ultimate platinum plated union job. I'm not sure if one exists that paid better or had more perks than his telephone job.
-Rocky
-Rocky
http://www.freep.com/article/20090402/BUSINESS01/904020387/1002/rss02
-Rocky
-Rocky
Sorry, Waggoner isn't worth $23mil. As noted, under his guidance, GM never made money. If losing billions is worth $23mm, what would a CEO who actually turned a profit have been worth, a billion? Maybe just given the entire Pontiac division as a gift?
That kind of severance just continues to point to the terrible management/BOD at GM... Really, another bean counter running the show? Great...
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
The Teamsters gained 80,000 new members in 2008. How many did the UAW lose? Yes the UAW have negotiated the US auto industry into bankruptcy. Not the heritage that Reuther had in mind. He wanted to parlay the UAW into the leaders of a USSR type regime.
That kind of severance just continues to point to the terrible management/BOD at GM... Really, another bean counter running the show? Great...
Well maybe I'm wrong as nobody is worth $23 million but my point was I respectfully disagree regarding Wagoner. He had issues he couldn't control. If our government was more protectionist towards business and worker we wouldn't be going through these problems. This is what free-market (well free for one side) capitalism gets you. You might be able to buy some of your stuff cheaper but the consquence is your job or at least someone you know!!! :sick:
Sorry about the job, Rock. But, if there's a reason for everything, hopefully soon you'll be driving your new 370Z!
Thanks. Hopefully I will get it. They don't do demo's at the dealership I applied at.... but hey if I "Rock-On" assuming I were to get it well they might reconsider giving me a demo as a reward.
I read earlier our good buddy lemko, has been hanging around the Genesis forum. Ummmm if GM, were to go BK could I pencil him in for a Genesis as his next car is what I think OW is saying???
-Rocky
-Rocky
P.S. I wasn't aware you owned a Ranger. :surprise: Can I also pencil you in for a Genesis, to replace the tired out Lexus???
Our company was a small telephone co-operative. Meaning all records were in the public domain. So we did the research and had all the facts at negotiation time. Our business agent was rarely involved in our contract negotiations. When times were tough we gave some back. That is something that did not happen when GM starting losing big time in 2004. The 2005 contract concessions were all in the future. GM needed big solutions then not in 2012. Now they may be too late. In 25 years we only got tough one time. And that was over a boss that thought he could bust the Union. He's gone and the Union is still there. The company had a much bigger turnover in management than the Union workers. Only one of our original guys left. I talked to him today. He is going to retire on his 65th birthday. He could have retired 10 years ago. Just thought he could change things. Kind of like you Rocky. He is my best friend, even though he leans more to the left than I do. He and I were shop stewards together for much of our 37 years working together. He is the only thing I miss being retired.
Reuther was a communist. His ties to the Soviet Union were well documented and not good. There really is no such thing as a level playing field. The UAW was trying to build a workers Utopia and failed miserably. You cannot kill the company and still have jobs. The UAW has not learned that simple lesson. Another simple lesson. You cannot compete against Chinese labor and be profitable. You have to design the products and let them build them. It is so simple yet many here fail to see the reality as it is.
The Union mantra is all people are equal. That is so wrong. All people should have equal rights to excel at whatever they choose. The Unions kill that incentive to excel.
When the economy recovers and Obama is under less political pressure, the UAW plans to ask him for billions in federal funding for a retiree health-care trust, said the person who asked not to be identified revealing internal union discussions."
Obama Weighs Buyout Rage Against Future of Iconic Auto Union (Bloomberg)
-Rocky
I've been studying up on it just in case!!!
Reuther was a communist. His ties to the Soviet Union were well documented and not good.
Got a reliable source??? :surprise:
There really is no such thing as a level playing field. The UAW was trying to build a workers Utopia and failed miserably. You cannot kill the company and still have jobs.
So it is the UAW's fault that we would be lucky to sell only 8 or 9 million new cars this year??? You sound like you are blaming them more than Wall Street. :sick:
The UAW has not learned that simple lesson. Another simple lesson. You cannot compete against Chinese labor and be profitable. You have to design the products and let them build them. It is so simple yet many here fail to see the reality as it is. You have to design the products and let them build them. It is so simple yet many here fail to see the reality as it is.
Isn't that why your hero Hunter, wanted to implement "protectionist" clauses not only to save american manufacturing jobs but also for national security issues??? Why does he think it's a bad idea to continue on this path but you see this current trade policy that is costing us millions of jobs as good economics??? :confuse:
The Union mantra is all people are equal. That is so wrong. All people should have equal rights to excel at whatever they choose. The Unions kill that incentive to excel.
You almost sound like one of those capitalist professors that is "brain washing" our youth into believing we are going to be "safer" and rid the world of "violence" by building other economies around the globe. Barry Obama, thinks the same thing or as long as the Chinese, keep loaning him money. The bottom line any way this ends up it's going to kill our manufacturing base and standard of living. I guess as people stand in soup lines and ask what happened well a few of us will say I told you so!!!! :mad:
-Rocky
P.S.
Good Night from G-RAP!!!
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
GM has a lot of undesirable riff-raff at UAW wages already.
This is a fundamental problem with unions. If you are a good CEO you are there to maintain the health and profitability of the company. If you are handicapped by the situation above, and your competitors can undercut your costs, what do you do? You choose one or more of the following:
1 - Cut content to keep vehicle prices competitive (they've done this)
2 - Outsource manufacturing to cheaper locations (Mexico, etc.)
3 - Focus on higher margin vehicles (SUVs, Trucks)
4 - Advertise to the patriotic citizens and shame them into buying your vehicles just because of the US nameplate rather than on price or quality.
The union hates #2 above, and #1 causes loss of market share over time, #3 puts the company in a very vulnerable place when gas prices go up or the economy tanks, and #4 has been done to death. The high union costs have contributed to exactly where we are today! Due to the contracts, the company's flexibility has been totally crippled!