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But, i think I mentioned in an earlier post about the mind-set of family run businesses, and how xenophobic many of them tend to be. I think that is what you ran across. You were telling the boss basically, or he was hearing, that his son was running the business the wrong way (lack of inventory/selection), and that probably sit too well. The son could do no wrong because if he could err, that reflected on the old man!
The reason the the Union contract is a legal and binding one between the Company and the Union. The only way to change it is to get a majority of the members of the agreement to agree. Otherwise they have a legal right to sue the company and possibly the Union. This makes it very difficult for companies to change when it becomes apparent they are over paying compared to the non union competition
Exactly, and that was a failure on management's part. GM management failed miserably in that regard. They should have negotiated a contract that would have given the company the flexibility to adopt to changing market conditions without having to reopen a contract. Maybe a clause that linked raises to company performance. Or bonuses in place of raises. Or just being able to let the left hand lug-nut installer work on the right side of the car :P !
I know our company did that 10 years ago. It was (message to the union) either "work with us and give us the flexibility we need to run our business, or we will move the business".
No wonder the D3 is having problems. That's really a sweet heart deal, and totally unsustainable.
I am paying around $2400/year for medical benefits through work, and then end up paying around $1500/year out of pocket, so, in round figures, roughly $4,000/year. And I'm making money for my company!
Based on the two recent links; the bondholders and UAW are still hoping for a bailout.
Working for the kids is the worst. The old man who established the business understood the effort it took to get a place up and running from scratch and appreciated the value of his employees. The old man's kids grow up spoiled and priviledged, enjoying the fruits of his labor, and don't understand what it takes to build a business. The kids' kids are usually the ones who finally torpedo the business.
663K Jobs Lost in March
Gettelfinger should be out of a job by order of Sir Bo. If Gettel had worked harder to preserve GM by having the highly overpaid older workers take cuts on salary and retirement promises, GM could have spent more on the cars and would be profitable.
Of course, Gettelfinger was a delegate for BO at the convention. Too bad Wagner wasn't a delegate? There's no reason for Gettelfinger to still be there other than the lobbying people having power--the opposite of promises during the campaign.
Dumping Gettlefinger would indicate to the union that BO is serious about fixing the costs problem to equal that of the favored foreign makers.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
UAW can't take a concession while everyone in the country is.
It is NOT Wall Street that loaned people money they should have never gotten. That was the banking industry pushed by both sides of Congress. I would say at least 25% of the cars sold in the subprime era were bought illegally. Borrowing money that you plan to write off the interest on then buying a vehicle is illegal. So when that money dried up so did the volume of car sales. Expecting people to have a good credit rating to buy a car is the way banks are supposed to operate. The car dealers got spoiled with loose credit.
8-10 million cars is plenty for this country and economy. 17 million was sheer lunacy. And the reason GM in particular was susceptible is the volume they needed to sell to maintain the UAW retirees. You keep ignoring that major FACT. So I would say, Yes, the UAW is a major cause of the collapse of the US auto industry.
you see this current trade policy that is costing us millions of jobs as good economics?
It is NOT current trade policy. It is the policy set in the 1950s by Congress and has grown ever since. The auto industry is the last to be impacted. You and your state have been insulated for 50 years from this and now that it hits Michigan it is a huge problem. Well it was the same for people building TVs & Radios in the 60s. Don't forget the auto industry has the most protection of any industry. The 25% tariff on import PU trucks. If not for that the D3 would have gone away decades ago with their lack of initiative.
You almost sound like one of those capitalist professors that is "brain washing" our youth
You got to be joking. 85% of college professors are Liberals. From the looks of what is coming out of the G20 we can be guaranteed a lessor role in manufacturing. We now owe the Chinese $trillions and begging for more.
Something you need to really look hard at. Unions DID NOT make this a great nation. Hard working people with great ideas made this a great nation. If anything Unions dampened the incentive to excel. I think if you get your dad to be honest with you, he will confess that there are a lot of workers that hide behind the UAW apron and do not give 100% for their pay.
Why should a company like GM or Delphi pay a 50 year old man as much as a 30 year old man when they can no longer perform as well in a labor intensive job? I don't blame this on the UAW worker anymore than the company. The solution they came up with is send them out to pasture when their back gives out. That may have worked when people did not live much past 65 years of age. Modern medicine keeps that old dude going to 80 and beyond. GM made the deal so they are ultimately responsible. It however shows the gigantic flaw in the UAW retirement plan. That flaw has brought down the American auto industry as much as the fact that the Imports are beating them in the quality arena.
should announce a junker buyback for US brands only. Instead we have hints for months now, so people are holding off purchasing a new car because they are hoping for a rebate from the G'vment. So SLOW car sales.
First was not announcing that G'vment should back warranty if major US manufacturer were to have gone out of business. That would have given some people confidence to buy the cars they'd like to buy but have been afraid due to the media hype and the reality that warranty could have been lost.
Inexperience causing more crisis. But crisis is good to get through agenda points.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
No healthcare in retirement................................
No costs associated with Union infrastructure...........................
The Asian guys are just cheap...........................it's just a job.,
The buyback is a recent idea, that has just started gaining traction in the media.
Also a junker buy back for just US cars has two major problems.
-It costs the tax payers a ton
-Causes retaliation tariffs by out trading partners
That is why there is medicare. Does anyone on this forum have a pension or guaranteed retiree health? :confuse:
That statement doesn't hold water. Give a rebate for junkers on some criteria for eligibility and allow it to be used for buying US brand automobiles.
>The buyback is a recent idea, that has just started gaining traction in the media.
Media should be irrelevant to this. The idea has been floated weeks ago by a congressperson so it's been around a couple of months. Not acting is slowing sales to some people.
>Give me a break. Obama was not in office in October when GM and Chrysler were begging for money
Not what I'm talking about. Obama's been pres since Jan. 20. Remember
"Hope and Change."
I
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
It's absolutely true that UAW fostered an environment where there are too many workers with work rules that reduce productivity and discourage change, but you can do the best job in the world of assembling a, ahem, "toad" and maybe it won't rattle, but it'll still look cheap, run rough, and fall apart fast. None of those things are the fault of the assembly worker. Even visible quality faults like misaligned panels can't really be blamed on the workers... they need the tolerances, the tools to meet those tolerances, and the time to do the job properly. The GM paint fiasco wasn't the fault of the paint-line guys. The paint looked great till it fell off in big sheets.
The Union didn't send the X cars to market with bad brake balance... the engineers did. The Union didn't decline to redesign the infamous head gaskets... or design the Aztek (although it would have been a blessing if they'd used their power to refuse to build them).
Rocky asks above (hang in there, guy!)- what would GM have done differently without the unions in the 70's and 80's? That's a good question. They would have still been forced to make tons of variations on the same themes, because they had to feed their dealer networks... Buick and Oldsmobile needed cheap cars to sell during the Oil Shock years, so the Chevette, Astro, (Olds version=?) would have still existed. Additionally, they couldn't stop making the big cars that defined Buick, Olds, and Cadillac....
Thus my instant answer of focusing on making a few good cars rather than a ton of mediocre ones doesn't seem to have been possible.. Further, GM tried to reinvent Olds as a 'modern' car line with unique styling, and distinct technology and failed miserably....in fact it's the only GM line to die so far.
So, while I remain no UAW fan, and am convinced that they carry a great share of the blame for the failure of GM, I'm starting to think that the whole business model had become a dinosaur by the 0's and would have been in largely the same condition today, even if the UAW were saints......
Perhaps the only solution will come with the invention of the Time Machine, where we can go back and assassinate Roger Smith... and then - disassemble GM like the government wanted to do anyhow?
/Rant off
Yep, I rather have a $1 cash today, then a promise of ($2+inflation) in 20 years in a pension. A pension or SS is nothing but a promise that can be changed due to conditions. Congress can change the pension system or SS tomorrow. Penisons, medicare and SS aren't much better than gambling.
The media is relevant, how are people going to know there is a junker buy back plan in the works unless they here about it.
And yes Obama has been in office for two months, but as the President his job is not to make sure people buy cars. Was a decree supposed be that all GM's and Chrysler are government backed? When Bush first agreed to help GM by giving them $16,000,000,000 it was his responsibility to add strings to the money.
I have a Teamster pension that is very good. We dropped retiree health care in the 1990s as being unsustainable. It would have caused our pension plan to go broke. Sound familiar? The ERISA Act is so restrictive that most private companies opted out of defined pension plans. The 401K is the standard. The new UAW hires I believe will be offered matching funds into their 401k. I personally would have rather my $7 per hour that went into the Union pension would have gone into my 401k. The way it is now, when I die that ends the pension. So my wife and family get nothing more. With a 401k you can leave money to your spouse. I could have opted for lifetime coverage for both of us. It would have just about cut the monthly benefit in half. So we gambled that I would live as long or longer than she.
>The GM paint fiasco wasn't the fault of the paint-line guys
Wasn't the paint engineering done by PPG? They paid for the repaints on some of the vehicles. I also note that many vehicle lines and brands had paint difficulties of various types. Specifcally the PPG engineers said that a third coat wasn't necessary as a bonding coat between a primer and the finish coat, so GM applied their paint thus. Later the top color coat let go from the bottom coat whereas it would have held if PPG had stuck with the previous design for the paint systems.
Wasn't paint problems brought about by the EPA (if you liked the EPA, you'll love Cap and Trade) because the paints had to be reformulated to be water based and applied in a manner so as to produce the least pollution.
>various head gaskets..
Not sure which head gasket problems here. Many cars have had troubles... including Fords, Camrys, etc.
>design the Aztek
This is an example of the prejudice under which many people have painted the company through the years. I look at the Aztek owned by the single adult lady who owns a nice home a couple down the road and it's a nice looking car. I can list cars from other companies that I'd consider much less appealing to the eye, but I don't want to start a flame war. I'm just pointing out the PR problem that has been continued against GM, deserved and undeserved, through the last few years.
>Chevette
to continue the above paragraph, would you include the Fiesta, Pinto, Escort, and other unknown foreign brands by myself, which may not have been so durable? I note a property to the west of me where the guy has a dark red boxy Rabbit by VW. Piece of junk. But he apparently has kept the motor and manual transmission going and uses it to haul things a small trailer.
There's a Chevette in a nursing home complex that I pass. Resident or worker owned? But it looks great.
>They would have still been forced to make tons of variations on the same themes, because they had to feed their dealer networks... Buick and Oldsmobile needed cheap cars to sell during the Oil Shock years
I agree very much on that decision and problem of needing cars for multiple lines of dealers after the late 70s or early 80s regrouping of GM's resources eliminated Buicks that were different from Pontiacs, e.g.
>GM tried to reinvent Olds as a 'modern' car line with unique styling, and distinct technology and failed miserably
Another PR problem. Olds was painted as a car for old people (does that sound familiar about Buick?--that's spoken a lot in foreign car discussions).
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I like the idea of having control of my own retirement, sort of. I could just put it in super safe funds. Or go for the moon. Nothing is 100% safe.
I guess the UAW is scared of studying to get a good return on a 401k?
Paint -
The paint process may have been developed by PPG but it was accepted by GM - the EPA rules were the same for everybody, and the U.S.-built Fords and Honda's of the day didn't have the problem... or if they did, the companies took care of it.
Headgaskets...
Well, I actually meant Intake manifold gasket for the V6 (Dexcool),
http://www.girardgibbs.com/dexcool.html
but mis-spoke... however, if you want head gasket problems from GM, take your pick from the list below:
G.M. to Fix 500000 Cars
The General Motors Corporation said today that it would pay to replace the head gaskets in 500000 1987-1991 vehicles equipped with Quad 4 engines, ...
Detroit's Blunders, on a Grand Scale; Vegas Overheat, Fords Rust, Owners Complain
Dreadful Engines From General Motors Gave Diesels a Bad Name
Eventually, the head gasket blew. That was fixed under warranty, ... Stretched bolts led to blown head gaskets. Many owners filed lawsuits, ...
http://query.nytimes.com/search/sitesearch?query=headgasket&srchst=cse
Aztek -
Glad you like it. Luckily for you, you can buy as many as you want - real cheap.
Chevette -
The Chevette itself wasn't the problem, although it was certainly a terrible little car. The problem to which I was referring was the dilution and consequent destruction of the concept of "Buick", "Pontiac", or "Oldsmobile". Seriously - put a Chevy Chevetter and a Pontiac T1000 in front of me, and use them to explain what makes the word "Pontiac" anything other than a nameplate on the trunk.
Oldsmobile and its death.....
Oldsmobile was the wrong brand for the experiment. It wouldn't have worked at Buick either. Would it have worked better at Pontiac?
But ultimately, I'm not sure what you're saying. The intent of my comment is that Management drove the ship onto the rocks... not the UAW. However, I'm not sure that, even under the best of management and union circumstances, that the large corporation making millions of basically identical vehicles was a sustainable concept after the invasion of the U.S. by (first) V.W. and the Japanese.
What is the overall point you're trying to make, other than picking apart my comments individually?
The Aztek is widely regarded as one of the biggest debacles in the history of the automotive industry. I think it was voted as the ugliest car ever in multiple polls. Time went ahead and called it the WORST CAR OF ALL TIME!
And GM, Chrysler, and Ford for that matter did not start making reliable cars until this century.
http://www.time.com/time/specials/2007/article/0,28804,1658545_1658544_1658540,0- 0.html
By pension plan, I assume you mean a traditional defined benefit plan? I have one, but the benefits in it are only what I accrued up through 2003 when the plan was terminated in favor of a cash balance plan. And, despite our HR department's statements, I am making out worse under the cash balance plan than under the previous plan (no surprise there, I guess), to the tune of several hundreds of dollars a month in estimated benefits.
The company also pays towards medical insurance if you retire before you are eligible for medicare. But, in big bold letters in the plan document, it says that this benefit is not guaranteed and that the company could terminate it at any time.
After Medicare kicks in, right now the company is paying (part of or all of, I'm not sure) the premium for a Medicare supplemental policy. But again, this benefit is not guaranteed and can be terminated at any time.
We do have a decent 401K plan that has been around for 30+ years. The company kicks in up to 3% (50% match on the first 6% you contribute), and there's a pretty good mix of investment options.
So all in all, it's not a bad deal in today's world.
TAke your own economics class. :sick: We sell few US made cars overseas. :confuse:
> President his job is not to make sure people
"Hope and Change."
>When Bush first agreed to help GM by giving them $16,000,000,000 it was his responsibility to add strings to the money.
Gimme a break. January 20th, 2009. Bumper stickers praising the coming day. Hope and change.
He's the president as of said date. It's his job. I can picture 2012 and people are still saying, "It's Bushs' fault. It's not our job to effect change the last four years. It's not our job to have hope...." Got the idea? Bush ain't there no 'mo. :P
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I am beginning to believe that I am not the corporate-union type of person, but I have absolute respect for anyone who (respectfully and/or civilly) speaks their mind and discusses the faults with a running business...you did just that...when I was in Detroit, my staff always felt free to bring to me any criticisms, compliments or comments...did I implement ALL their ideas???...no, some were quite bad, but easily 33-50% of their ideas were implemented simply because their idea on some topic may be better then mine...I was the boss, but I am smart enough to know that my view on EVERYTHING is not always right (except my views on the UAW, they should be enshrined in a Wash, DC monument)...outside ideas, to me, are always welcome, because you never know where a good idea may come from, yes, even a floorsweeper...
I think you did the right thing by speaking up, even if you lost your job...heck, you weren't selling anyway as they did not have the inventory, altho you might conisder checking your cleavage, that seems to work for some...:):):):):)
If they can't take criticism of the obvious, you did NOT lose a job, THEY lost a potential valuable employee...you will find better work elsewhere...
They probably WILL be gone in a year, like you say, so why the despondency on losing your job???...that assume they last the year...you would have been on the street anyway, so you have a head start over the dealer family for when THEY pound the pavement for jobs...
To me, your politics is atrocious and your understanding of economics is dismal...but I ALWAYS respect someone who speaks their mind, even when I fully disagree...there is a certain amount of self-respect to speaking your mind, and one thing you and I probably agree on totally: regardless of what I may lose, I will NEVER sacrifice my integrity and/or self respect for money or someone else's approval
Let's face it: the D3 offered these goodies only because they were sure that they could pass the costs on to car buyers, who had nowhere else to go in those days. The D3 thought that their monopoly on the car biz would last forever & that foreign competition would never amount to more than a pinprick.
As we've seen, that was a really bad business decision. American companies in other, more competitive industries have never locked themselves into expensive retirement programs.
And China doesn't matter? GM is the top automaker in China. They actually made a profit in China; $147,000,000 while they were loosing billions in the US.
Can't you opt for a reduced benefit while you're living, with the guarantee that that lower benefit will continue on to you spouse if you should die? My company has several options along those line, including:
1. 100% benefit now and nothing to the spouse
2. 80% benefit now and 60% to the spouse, and
3. 70% benefit now and 70% (no reduction) to the spouse
I may have the exact percentages wrong, but you should get the drift.
Oops, sorry gagrice, missed the next sentence in your post.
I'm still surprised that you go back to 1987 for car problems for head gaskets. Do we want to talk about problems the foreign cars had then?
> U.S.-built Fords and Honda's
Let me collect some pictures of Fords with bad paint running around and Honda that belongs to someone in the same school--black about 1996 with peeling clearcoat would be my guess.
>Luckily for you, you can buy as many as you want
And that's good. There don't seem to be many in the used car lots. People that have them keep them. Maybe they like them.
>the overall point you're trying to make
The points were things that were not all GM's fault in engineering. The UAW's costs have driven GM to savings for which they are criticized unfairly often when they had no other choice. The contracts made in ignorance or haste or pressure from the unions striking the most profitable company at the time to begin the negotiations rounds and set the increases have come back to bite them. BUT they had no choice. I don't see that any other manager would have been able to differently the last few years with closing plants when the work rules mandate keeping a certain number of jobs in certain plants for certain years. It was dumb to sign those agreements, but the strikes by the unions pressure the automakers to do dumb things. To wit the strike against Malibu plants recently by UAW when that was the best-selling car GM had at a time they were losing money.
My other point is a lot of bad PR has help hasten the slowdown of GM sales. While many feel the Aztek is awful, have you known anyone who has one? I'll ask the lady down the road when she comes to look at the gardens some day. I also have friends who have Rendevouzs. One hurried to buy the last red one when they were discontinued.
But the bad PR has been perpetuated like jokes about the Cubs winning in the world series again someday, maybe. (father-in-law is 100% Cubs fan). Amazingly the bad PR has not in the past hurt Honda about their transmission problems, but the discussion of problems continues. That Honda buys the replacement trans, more or less, upt to 100K helps a lot. But read the posts with the next trans failure after 100K and how much Honda wants to charge for even some PR extra help. Remember GM didn't have the extra funds to replace some things they should have replaced, because, of the UAW high production and retirement costs.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
My cousin's husband retired out of Oldsmobile in Lansing prior to the brand disappearing from the market. He retired at 52, and practically earns more money (including the benefits package) in retirement than I do as a salaried person working 80 to 90 hours a week in a very small privately-held corporation - less than 25 employees. I'm actually happy for him, as I know he wouldn't want to trade places with me, as our company is currently in the survival-mode, as are many small corporations in this country. All of us are working long hours to keep the company viable. There are no other options.
There-in lies the problem. When he retired GM was selling a lot bigger percentage than they are today. Yet his retirement keeps going up with COL and higher medical. He will be a big drain along with 450,000 others until GM goes bankrupt and PBGC takes over the pension fund. Which is currently under funded.
Either way the tax payer gets the shaft for an agreement made by the D3 and the UAW that we had NO say in. That is taxation without representation.
Your neocon candidate could do no better. I see no better solutions being offered from what passes for opposition these days.
Your neocons lost fair and square. Move on and think to three years from now. If all of these automotive deals are mistakes, it is now the responsibility of the elephants to capitalize, should they take responsibility for once in their lives.
Hehe.Things would be smoothing out if McCain were there. The negative talk would not have gone on for months about how awful things are. The UAW would be making contributions toward the auto companies' longevity instead of being welcomed back into the White House by the occupant. Do you think the UAW will give up much that's not reimbused by the taxpayers for themselves or their retirees? We need Reagan. Remember Patco?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Many, like Carter, said they supported the president but were nervous about the degree to which the government was making decisions for GM. And many flashed open anger at what they perceive as a double standard in the way the Obama White House is treating the auto industry compared to financial institutions."
Workers on edge as they await GM's fate (CNN)
(btw Gary, if 85% of college professors are Liberals, does that mean Conservatives are too dumb to be professors?)
Millions of extra cars were sold because of employee pricing but it also killed GMAC on residuals that they had to eat. I saw a lot of cars repoed and it's still going on today. I guess some of that could also be contributed to the divorce rate that everyone knows is sky high. When my under appreciated self was finding and trying to buy cars off the auction for sale you would run across a few repo's.
I know gagrice likes to blame most everything on the UAW workers but one would think he would be happy that Barry, is selling the unions out!!! He is pushing this global economy hard. The serf n' elite society is here to stay. I hope Newt is right when saying a 3rd party will be created and viable next election. The biggest problem will be raising enough income to be able to afford the costs of such a run.
-Rocky
Also, that lady is a 20 year retiree? I wish I could retire after 20 years.
I spent some time in the Subaru chat last night with Steve, and many others which was a good time. :shades:
-Rocky
You are right about enshrining your views of the UAW in a Washington, DC monument as long as it's in the Hall of Shame!!!
-Rocky
imidazol97: You are dreaming pal if you think this crisis would of been handled by McSame better. Would you really of wanted to continue Bushes domestic policy??? The Big 3 would be history by now if he were in office and he would of further opened up the markets of South America and Korea to dump on us. As you know this is coming from someone who isn't very happy with Barry either. :mad:
Fintail: I agree with you pal.
-Rocky
Put some ads out offering your services to buyers to do some or all of the research, negotiation, and paperwork run-around/delivery for clients (buyers). Maybe 10% of the population either have the $, but not the time, or just hate going to a dealer, that they would hire you for a few hundred $'s to help with the process.
You actually could get them a better price, if you explain to the local dealers that you will be coming in once a week or so, directing clients their way.
Why not consider if you could do that, and if your local demographics supports that. I've really not heard of many people doing this, so you shouldn't have much competition. That way you'll earn what you're worth, and see if your ideas are correct. You could help the UAW by promoting D3 vehicles at the same time.
Using a Car Broker to Buy Your Next Vehicle
Hard to say from the wording in the article. The caption under the picture says "Brenda Carter worked at a GM plant in Tennessee for 20 years before retiring.", Then the sentence in the main body of the article right below that says "We spoke on her first day as a GM retiree, in a home about a 45-minute drive from the Spring Hill, Tennessee, plant where she worked 20 of her 30 years at GM".
From that we could conclude that she worked for GM for 30 years, 20 of them at the Spring Hill plant.
Even so, retiring after 30 years with pension and health benefits is still a pretty good deal. Heck, I'd have worked 40 years before I'm eligible for any kind of pension at all! And that would be a reduced, early retirement amount.