I bought shirts at Wal~Mart that fell apart the first time I washed them. However, I have an American made work shirt I bought in 1984 that is still with me and in good condition despite countless washings. What's better? A $30 shirt that lasts for years or three $10 shirts you have to throw away in few months?
Lemko - the flaw in your analysis is that it doesn't take into account the point we were talking about - the impact of high wages on consumer prices. You're assuming that you'd be getting a better shirt for your $30.... however the context of these remarks is to point that with UAW level wages, you'd be getting the $10 quality shirt.....but paying $30 dollars for it. Increased wages don't add value to the shirt. That has to come from better design or materials. If labor costs are cheaper, you have the ability to add better design and materials at any given price point.
Andre and gagrice - One of the things we've talked about at other times is that when you do inflation adjusted calculations, you pay about the same percent of salary for a car or a little less nowaday than you did in the late 50's or early 60's but you get a lot more content for the price - airbags, power windows, etc.
Most of that is the result of material, design and worker productivity improvements, but most of those improvements in were forced material, design and worker productivity by price competition. This is where the Japanese forced quality improvements on Detroit - value for the dollar - and where the Koreans are putting pressure on the Japanese now.
One of the last areas where there's been no foreign competition until recently was in major appliances. Now with the advent of foreign companies on the scene, we're finally starting to see some design changes.
Don't care much for BMW and Audi is a little too anonymous-looking, but I do like the look of the Mercedes. I would've liked a Lexus, but I hate their new styling direction. I liked it better when they copied the previous generation S-Class. Infiniti and Acura? Their entire look is totally Bizarro World!
Well, you certainly are gracious in defeat. If I were half the Caddy lover that you claim to be, I don't know if I'd want my money to go to Daimler-Benz, which built the cars that crushed & humiliated my favorite brand & relegated it to 3rd-tier status. I'd look for something else if I couldn't have a Cadillac - a used Lexus LS, for example.
Don't care much for BMW and Audi is a little too anonymous-looking, but I do like the look of the Mercedes. I would've liked a Lexus, but I hate their new styling direction. I liked it better when they copied the previous generation S-Class. Infiniti and Acura? Their entire look is totally Bizarro World!
I pretty much agree with your analysis there. Although the latest from MB is kind of Asian looking to me. Like when Dodge made their PU trucks ugly Ford tried to out ugly them and GM followed suit. Toyota had no problem copying ugly with the Tundra. Ford is coming back around a bit. Still no new truck I would want.
You just may have to keep your current rides a LONG time. We got 20 on our LS400 and I just put a new set of tires. That means at least 5 more year and 25k more miles. Unless we give it to family.
Now, if they're stupid enough to be buying 1/2 million $ houses, Escalades, boats, Ski-Doos, plasma televisions, and vacationing in the Bahamas, then they've got some fierocious money-management issues.
And therein lies the problem, Lemko. Most of the UAW workers think they're entitled to that kind of lifestyles. And I sure as hell will never support them for that.
Do I want a t-shirt that last 3 yrs? No I don;t, as there's no t-shirt anywhere in the world that can last that long without the fabric losing it's color. :P even worse if it costs $30.
sad as it may be, it's those cheap products that allow us Americans to maintain our lifestyles. Would you be willing to sacrifice all those for the sake of other Americans and patriotism? Even if you do, how many others will follow? Will that even be enough? Think about it.
One of my favorite t-shirts is from a 1987 whitewater race. And I got it from a friend who outgrew it. I only wear it occasionally now though. :shades:
"Chrysler LLC, seeking to sell most of its assets out of bankruptcy to a new company run by Fiat SpA, won’t have to contend with a strike by the United Auto Workers until at least 2015."
One Billion down, $38 Billion to go. That is just to break even. If GM cannot make a profit they need to close up shop and let an automaker that can survive. GM has been a road block to the Auto industry for TOO MANY YEARS.
I am betting as soon as the door shuts on GM that Ford will blossom. Along with the Ford stock I bought. So I am anticipating a quick and decisive liquidation of Government Motors along with Chrysler. Though the reality is the UAW Retirees could tie it up in court for decades.
"I dunno. I'd rather pay $30 for a shirt made here knowing I was taking care of a fellow American and his family rather than buying the $12 shirt made in some third-world toilet by a heartless corporation that keeps impoverished kids chained to a machine while paying them pennies. That $30 shirt would probably last a long time. I bought shirts at Wal~Mart that fell apart the first time I washed them. However, I have an American made work shirt I bought in 1984 that is still with me and in good condition despite countless washings. What's better? A $30 shirt that lasts for years or three $10 shirts you have to throw away in few months?"...obviously, you have never shopped at a Walmart, because you are using intelligent logic how you buy a shirt...most folks at W-M do not use that logic...they see the price and they know they can afford it, which is why W-M sells so many shirts...
Years ago, my father told me a saying, "Only the rich can afford to buy cheap, the rest of us need value"...in my mind, a $30 shirt that lasts is better then a $10 one that has to be replaced 4 times a year...
But, stop for a second: the people who "live" at WalMart do NOT think that way...while many folks shop W-M, it is the lower income folks that they appeal to the most...they, lemko, do NOT run around in Park Avenues and DTS's, and do not think ahead...they buy what is the cheapest...the Waltins are billionaires because Sam knew the vast majority thinks like poor people, not the way you think...so, while your shirt logic makes sense to the educated, WalMart thinks the other way and makes their billions...
That is why we do not make shirts here, except for custom shirtmakers who sell at a much higher price to those who can afford it...and they aren't unionized either...just well paid because of a skill of a tailor...
Without unions, would we go back to sweatshop conditions???...no, one of the great accomplishments of unions was the 40 hour workweek, overtime, vacations, etc, now part of federal and state laws...I always give them credit for that, which was why they did a great job in the 30s and 40s, into the 50s...and that is why they have been obsolete for 30 years but continue to run their companies into bankruptcy, because the pendulum has swung too far, and those gold-plated health and retirement benefits that sound so good are simply not affordable...no matter how you slice it, if the money is not there, the company cannot afford it...scream about "contracts" all you want, a contract that cannot be afforded is a contract that MUST be breached, leaving the beneficiaries in the lurch...no other way around it...
I always give them credit for that, which was why they did a great job in the 30s and 40s, into the 50s...and that is why they have been obsolete for 30 years but continue to run their companies into bankruptcy, because the pendulum has swung too far, and those gold-plated health and retirement benefits that sound so good are simply not affordable...no matter how you slice it, if the money is not there, the company cannot afford it...
When BMW Manufacturing was selecting a state for their US plant the company had two requirements: 1. The state had to be a "Right to Work" state 2. The state could have no auto plants located in it. In essence they wanted a non-union workforce that had not picked up any bad auto making habits. If you visit the Greer plant today you will find the employee lot filled with BMW cars and bikes. Do you think that those workers need(or want) UAW representation?
Using that criteria, one could expect that a new auto plant from any import will not be set up in the Midwest for about, oh, 1000 years, because they have been contaminated by the UAW and it has affected their DNA...just listen to the UAW people here who continually justify workers with no skills making over 3 times what other unskilled workers make, and yet they believe they are underpaid...their entire mindset is that anyone who does not have a 5000 sq ft home on the lake with 2 jetskis, two Caddys in the 3 car garage, and at least one summer home in the mountains is practically starving and deprived...oh, and none of them should have to pay a dime toward their health insurance premiums nor should they pay any deductibles or copays...they absolutely screamed when they had to start paying a copay of a couple of bucks a visit...
They simply have been insulated from reality, and suddenly someone is blowing the door off the airplane hangar and the sunshine is blinding them, as they have never seen so much reality at once...if you want an example of how little they know about reality, they are more insulated from the real world than Paris Hilton...
Years ago, my father told me a saying, "Only the rich can afford to buy cheap, the rest of us need value"...in my mind, a $30 shirt that lasts is better then a $10 one that has to be replaced 4 times a year...
I mostly shop at thrift shops. I have a list of top brand Hawaiian shirts MADE IN HAWAII, that I watch for. I bought two Kahala's last week for $6. One looked like it had never been worn. I wear Hawaiian shirts about 75% of the time. T-shirts the rest. I have pants that are at least 10 years old that are still like new. I mostly wear shorts. I have not bought any for at least 10 years. I have never bought any cloths at Walmart. Everything I buy there is Made in USA. Wine, plants, birdseed. If they were to become UAW I would have to shop elsewhere. Of course they would be out of business in 6 months.
those gold-plated health and retirement benefits that sound so good are simply not affordable
The idea of an unskilled worker retiring at 50 years of age with a fat pension is so far removed from 99% of Americans that they are appalled to find that is what has brought GM and Chrysler to bankruptcy. I talked to a guy from Pittsburgh today that would like to retire next year when he turns 70 years of age. He is out visiting his son and family. Our Union eliminated their retirement at 45 the year I turned 45. I could have taken it. I would be a Walmart greeter getting by on much less than I now have.
"The Detroit-based union also agreed to accept a 55 percent stake in the new company to fulfill half of the automaker’s $10.6 billion liability to a union retiree health-care fund."
Is this saying that 55% of the "New" Chrysler would belong to the union? And that would be used to deal with half the health care liability? Don't see how a company could stay in business that way.
I'm really confused on this. Any help or thoughts most appreciated.
One of my favorite t-shirts is from a 1987 whitewater race.
My T-shirt story starts with a Crazy Shirt I bought in Kona in the late 1970s. I wore that shirt until it was threadbare. Crazy shirt's used to be guaranteed for life. So I took it back in the 1990s and traded it for a new one. It never was the same. Should have kept the original. Speaking of high labor costs. Crazy Shirts was forced into bankruptcy in 2001. The new owners moved the factory out of CA and back to Hawaii. They are now making a good profit again. States like CA and Michigan will not be satisfied until they have driven every industry out of their states with over regulation, high taxes and OVER PAID UNSKILLED WORKERS.
I'm really confused on this. Any help or thoughts most appreciated.
Don't feel alone being confused. If VEBA owns 55% of the stock, is it worthless under bankruptcy. If not and they are now in control, who would be crazy enough to invest in such a losing venture? Oh, I forgot Obama will keep investing OPM (Other People's Money). Keep the UAW afloat no matter what the cost to the US Tax Payers.
my wife (girlfriend at the time) had a red T-shirt she got from Castrol Oil that said..."You Ought to Change Your Oil"...I assume it was made in America back then...she threw it out 2 years ago, after 29 years and the dye had faded and it was threadbare...(seeing her in a threadbare shirt is a topic for another time... :P ...)...yes, it was a quality shirt, and back in the 70s, I do not know how unions had affected the shirt industry, so I do believe we make them better...
But, things have changed...if the shirt was now made by union labor, I wonder if Castrol would give it away for free with a case of oil...and we know that most shirts for the masses are made in China or Thailand or Bangladesh (Van Heusen) because labor here is too expensive...I am sure the union did the shirtmakers what the UAW did to the automakers...
gagrice: "99% of Americans that they are appalled to find that is what has brought GM and Chrysler to bankruptcy"...that is what I mean...up until now, the average American knew as much about the UAW and their faults as I know about nuclear physics...now, with the publicity, the average Joe making $12-20/hour is quite knowledgeable that he is paying taxes to bailout workers with less skill than him, to maintain their pay at a level far above his, and I am sure he is upset...with the number of $70/hour floating around, I am sure the average guy is wondering with that kind of pay, how come his Big 3 cars over the last 25 years have been junk, and now he knows (lemko excepted...I think GM should erect a "Gratitude Statue" to lemko for his undying loyalty, yet his sheer ignorance as to why others now avoid GM like the bubonic plague)...
I think the curtain has been pulled back on the UAW, and the nation has found out that the emperor has no clothes...the UAW had it good, yet they are too stupid to know when to stop, so they drove the final nail in the coffin and will lose 1000s more jobs, and still have no idea why...rocky needs to stop talking about how intelligent they are, because the UAW makes my dog look smart, and I don't mean to insult my dog...
"......If all that stuff was made here at union pay, nobody could afford it, except maybe UAW workers. Then the plants would close and workers out of work."
Did it ever occur to you that if everything we consume were made here at union pay, then the common folk would be able to afford all the necessities in life and some of the luxuries, only because they would be paid a union wage????
".....Right. But you forgot to add: everything will cost at least 5 times as much. (or is it 10 times?) "
(sigh.....) Another one......Would everything cost 10 times as much? Quite possible. But the bigger picture is how would everybody's standard of living be? We could, in effect, go back to prices of the 1920's, along with those wages as well (would we accept 25 cents/hr?) but, again, if we could afford a $750 new car on that wage, or buy a small ranch house, then everything would be fine.
My wife's grandmother remarked the other day how hard her father had it (he had to take care of 4 girls and a very sick wife). She said that it was very difficult for him doing all that, and paying a $3,000 mortgage all on $16/wk. I could concur that it was a very difficult life, but financially, if you look at the figures, it WAS doable back then. A $25/mo mortgage for a blue collar worker making $16/wk (not the $25/wk that Ford's employees made).
Today, around here, that $3,000 house would cost close to $300,000. But, how many blue collar workers can say they bring home $1,600/wk for that $2,500/mo mortgage? Hell, how many college grads can lay claim to that?? Where is the standard of living comparability today as opposed to 80 years ago? I'll tell you where, it's in China and India.
I have made my assumptions on the basis that the shirtmakers moved out of this country for a reason, and I cannot believe the reason was the climate...it was, most likely, labor cost...
It is also possible that your price comparisons may be simply because some unions made concessions to keep the work here, so that you are seeing the RESULT of what a reasonable union might do when faced with 100% job loss...it is what we expect of of the UAW, but they will not concede enough to make the Big 3 profitable, so more plants will be closed and moved out of the country...
My basic underlying premise is simple...most, not all, unions only serve to raise the cost of labor to a company and create serious roadblocks to eliminating the bad employees, so that the overall quality of whatever they do will severely decrease over time...now, if the product or service can tolerate the increased cost by raising prices, everything seems OK (think UAW 1980s, 1990s)...until it reaches the breaking point, either in cost or poor quality...that is what we have here in the UAW...cost went up, quality went way down, customers deserted the companies, and all the union can do is keep the worthless and useless on the assembly line, whereas Honda and Toyota can fire them at will, which is the way EVERY company should operate...if you can dump the bad ones in a heartbeat, the others learn very quickly that poor quality, poor attitude, poor workmanship will NOT be tolerated, a concept that is quite alien to the UAW, and will always be so, since they simply cannot "get it."
".....It is also possible that your price comparisons may be simply because some unions made concessions to keep the work here, so that you are seeing the RESULT of what a reasonable union might do when faced with 100% job loss..."
It very well may be the result of honest to goodness negotiations. But the fact is that they can STILL be made here competitively.
But the fact is that Walmart dictates to these companies the price they will pay for "your" product, or the will get it from someone else. A small manufacturing company doesn't have the clout to say no. Levi's aren't made here anymore because "we" don't care about the quality of the jeans, "we" just want the cheapest, and "we" includes corporations like Walmart or K-Mart.
You notice the price of an X-BOX is the same, no matter where you buy it. That's because the shoe is on the other foot.
>But the fact is that Walmart dictates to these companies the price they will pay for "your" product, or the[y] will get it from someone else. A small manufacturing company doesn't have the clout to say no.
What we have here is the Wall Street mentality with financial shenanigans.
A few years back there was a TV program (maybe more recently on cable) about how Walmart has setups in China to help companies quickly and easily start production of their products there. When companies don't want to reduce their prices enough for Walmart, they are shown how they can produce it in China and sell it to Walmart at the price Walmart wants (and probably make more profit than producing here in US).
In other words Walmart has been a moving force in sending jobs out of the country.
The idea that if goods were produced here at living wages then people would be able to buy those goods at a sometimes higher price because the people would have a higher income sounds right to me. As more jobs are moved out of any kind of union production to China et al, we lose.
what the union did to Eastern Airlines...once again, the highest paid airline mechanics wanted even more money, and there was none to be had...so, the union sure beat Eastern, but now the jobs are gone, and have been for years...does any union pay attention anymore, or do we just have this problem with unions like UAW that only attract idiot sheeple as their members???
My Uncle was a big commie union man and a machinist for Eastern. He had to work on repairing the rides for Disney after they folded. He and his buddies certainly showed those rich fat cats. :P
and probably make more profit than producing here in US
This forum has taken a sharp right turn away from the UAW and car industry to why are goods made in China. IMO, the goods are made in China simply because they can be made cheaper and greater profits can be realized by the retailer that sells them (Wally Mart). If a pair of shoes that retails for $100 can be made here for $80 but made in China for $20, then Wally Mart buys the Chinese made shoes and then sells the $100 pair for $90. Unions didn't kill the clothing industry here, sweat shop child labor in China did. And due to our US child labor laws, it was simply impossible to compete.
Unions didn't kill the clothing industry here, sweat shop child labor in China did. And due to our US child labor laws, it was simply impossible to compete.
My mother and grandmother worked in a sewing factory during and after the War in Los Angeles. They worked piece work, which is a dirty word in the Union shops. They worked hard to support my sister and myself. I don't ever recall them referring to them as sweat shops. Maybe that was the workers that could not make any money on piece work.
The Unions did play a part in pushing the garment industry out of the USA. Same as the UAW has played a part in the current mess.
"But the fact is that they can STILL be made here competitively."...if the union, whether UAW or anyone else, agrees to competetive wages and non-restrictive work rules, I must agree with you...but, after seeing how the UAW "created" featherbedded jobs where none existed (thereby increasing payroll, benefits, and retirement costs for more employees thereby costing the compnay more for no other reason than to "make work" from nothing), and created restrictive work rules so that 6000 people were needed to make the same amount of cars that Honda made for 2000, I will emphatically state that unions only serve to DESTROY companies and send jobs overseas, because it is a rare union that acts reasonably...UAW, Eastern Airlines mechanics, and US Steelworkers are 3 prime examples...just because a few unions may be better is worth as much as saying that some Muslims aren't Islamic radicals...once the union tastes what it calls "power", over time they will PROBABLY kill their own golden goose...if ever there was a textbook case, we are watching the UAW do it in real time...
No, everyone should not be in a union...better than every union should be disbanded and annihilated...in the long run, both the company and the employees will be better off...maybe gagrice is the exception, since their union seemed to comprehend about killing the goose that "excretes" the gold...
It is more important for the company to make a better profit margin than for the workers to unionize...profits will hopefully keep the company operating, offering employment to SOME workers...if the union kills the company, NONE of the workers have a job...that is why I repeat that you could not simply "replace" Henry Ford with another visionary entrepreneur, but his 300,000 workers could be replaced by any living body with no special abilities except the ability to breathe and show up sober...and showing up sober is something else that left this planet when the UAW was formed, as they created grievance processes that required 2 years to take a drunk off the assembly line...now add that to the old adage "don't get a car made on Monday (hung over) or Friday (drunk)" and you will easily comprehend why "quality workmanship" and the UAW are the antithesis of each other, as you simply cannot have one at the same time as the other...if you have UAW you have junk, no UAW (think Honda, Toyota) and you have quality cars...as always, lemko excepted...
Without lemko, Caddy goes under in about a week... :P :shades:
This link was posted elsewhere but could be relevant here. A foreign car may document as largely manufactured here but parts may actually be imported and if the right ones are assembled into larger parts that counts as US content.
So how US is a Civic? The Dodge dealer apparently felt she should have done her Civic duty and bought a Dodge. Their minds were not of one Accord on this. We don't know what Caliber of worker the young lady is, but since I've heard a thousand times if once that a car assembled here is more US content than one assembled with parts from Mexico or Canada or even assembled in Canada/Mexico.
The UAW has taken all kinds of grief, and some is deserved. But There is lots more to the determination of US content than just where some parts were assembled.
I think it's time for the UAW to publicize more about the foreign content in US assembled foreign cars for foreign manufacturers.
I love the employer who fires this woman for her college graduation present saying "We'll take the high road." Too late. Hope they are the next dealership dropped.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
The dealer hinted that there may be "more to the story."
Now, if she had just belonged to a union like the UAW, she would not have to run to NBC to get the story out. The shop steward could have fixed the problem.
Now, if she had just belonged to a union like the UAW, she would not have to run to NBC to get the story out. The shop steward could have fixed the problem.
>"Did it ever occur to you that if everything we consume were made here at union pay, then the common folk would be able to afford all the necessities in life and some of the luxuries, only because they would be paid a union wage???? "
My Sunday School teacher is in the construction business. He is a top notch builder. He bid to build a HUD house for the city of Atlanta. He gave them his proposal and they decided they wanted union workers across the board. He re figured the cost and it was a little over twice that of using non union workers. Materials were the same. The cost of labor made the big difference.
If everything we consume was made at union wages, the "common folk", as you put it, could not afford nearly what they can now.
If everybody worked for a union, everything manufactured here would be much more expensive. We would be in run away inflation, and couldn't export anything because of the high price. Unions wouldn't tolerate anything being imported.
The burger flipper would be at $30 an hour plus bennefits and the Big Mac could be $10 instead of $2.50. $100K houses would be $300K and so on. All the union workers have the same wage and bennefits and all prices are higher than now, so their buying power shrinks. Union workers couldn't even afford what they can afford now.
When it gets to that point, everybody is union and earning earning the same wage no matter the job done, you have socialism. The small businessman can't pay the wages, and Obama takes over his business.
>The dealer hinted that there may be "more to the story."
The "there are other reasons we can't talk about that let us decide on the day she came with a gift Civic to fire her" sounds like good cover. but I don't believe it any more than I believe Nancy Pelosi.
Union workers couldn't even afford what they can afford now.
I am not sure why the concept is so hard to understand. I do believe your contractor friend. I don't think a Union home builder still exists in So CA. My brother in law was a Union Carpenter out of the San Francisco hall. In 1986 he was making $29 per hour, when I was making $20 per hour in AK. Now you will be hard pressed to find any carpenter jobs in CA paying more than $22 per hour. And they are glad to get that. Home prices have dropped so low here that you cannot build a house as cheap as you can buy an existing home. Even with the lower priced labor. Banks are tearing down brand new subdivisions because they do not want to lose anymore money.
The homes were part of a planned 16-unit project in this community 100 miles north of Los Angeles. The Texas bank that owns the failed development decided to demolish the houses, a cheaper alternative to completing and selling them.
The Victorville demolition is one of the most dramatic ends to a bad bet made during the housing boom, but abandoned developments have become an all-too-common sight in California. Nearly 250 residential developments totaling 9,389 homes have been halted across the state, according to one research firm.
The bottom line is the UAW workers at GM and Chrysler should have begged their leaders to drop their wages to $15 per hour across the board to save their jobs. They are greedy and will lose their jobs, with NO hope of getting close to their old wages for their level of skill. They can blame management or whatever they like. It will do no good when the unemployment runs out and they are still looking for that $30 per hour job with NO marketable skill. The trades such as electricians will probably be able to knock down between $20-$25 per hour. Though they may have to move out of the Right to lose your job states in the Midwest.
When Truman vetoed the Taft Hartley act, and Congress over rode his veto, it brought "Right to Work" into existence. The problem with a "closed shop" is you can be fired for not playing by the Unions unspoken rules. Rocky should understand after his last dealership experience. You go into the auto factory and work your butt off and the Shop steward says slow down Rocky. When Rocky tells him to buzz off he can be booted from the UAW. The Company has NO say in the process, in a closed shop they have to fire him. GM just lost a good employee because he would not play the featherbedding game with the UAW. Rocky can denies this ever happens. There has to be some reason that about half the states have given their people the right to belong to a Union if they chose. Just by coincidence most of those states have lower unemployment than the non "Right to Work" states.
The idea that if goods were produced here at living wages then people would be able to buy those goods at a sometimes higher price because the people would have a higher income sounds right to me.
If you accept that more people making Union wages will raise prices, you have to accept that those currently making UAW wages will be impacted and able to buy less. Or do we raise the UAW wages to $45 per hour because the guy at WalMart is making $30 per hour. It is a never ending struggle to see who can get the most money. Been that way since Noah. Closer to home here in a nutshell is the problem with Ohio.
A March 3, 2008 editorial in The Wall Street Journal compared Ohio to Texas and examined why "Texas is prospering while Ohio lags". According to the editorial, during the previous decade, while Ohio lost 10,400 jobs, Texas created 1,615,000 new jobs. The article cites several reasons for the economic expansion in Texas, including the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), the absence of a state income tax, and right-to-work laws
Ohio's most crippling handicap may be that its politicians — and thus its employers — are still in the grip of such industrial unions as the United Auto Workers. Ohio is a "closed shop" state, which means workers can be forced to join a union whether they wish to or not. Many companies — especially foreign-owned — say they will not even consider such locations for new sites. States with "right-to-work" laws that make union organizing more difficult had twice the job growth of Ohio and other forced union states from 1995–2005, according to the National Institute for Labor Relations.wiki
The time period examined shows it had little to do with who was President. Six of those years was during the Clinton Presidency.
>The article cites several reasons for the economic expansion in Texas, including the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), the absence of a state income tax, and right-to-work laws
I suspect right-to-work has much less to do with it than other, unspecified, factors. Texas has no zoning IIRC. In Ohio siting a plant can be an ordeal. Having no personal income tax makes Florida and Texas more attractive. But naively the WSJ article misses the business taxes in Ohio. The biggest complaint about getting businesses into Ohio is that the business taxes are higher than other states.
We're back to the competition between states with lowest taxes for the company.
The right-to-work didn't seem to affect Honda with its two auto plants and an engine plant and motorcycle plant (I haven't looked up the data but I believe all those are right). Honda even had Ohio on its short list when it picked Indiana who conveniently forgave lots of taxes and gave lots of aid along with setting up a legalized jobs discrimination with a specified hiring plan that excludes the area near Anderson which had lots of GM supplier plants from being in the list of those within 50 miles IIRC of the location of plant for hiring. It gave specific openings for Indianapolis residents to apply.
People who had lived in TX in past decades who moved back talked about many problems in TX.
Your assumption is based on IF everybody's in the union. Unless everybody's unionized, such high wages for everybody is impossible, and before you know it non-unionized immigrants (yes even legal ones) will take over their jobs for less. That'll kill American job market within seconds.
While not all unions are bad, and I actually support it if the job vacancies are dominated by a single employer (like government jobs, etc), I personally have no interest in joining union, and never will.
As for your shoes example, it's not that simple. A huge retailer here (can't give you a name) sells both American made and Vietnamese made shoes, both the same model, the American cost $150 and the Vietnamese cost $106. While the difference may not seem to much, imagine how you'll have to spend 50% extra on everything if you're to buy American made only. Yes that'll probably help the workers getting higher wages, but that means my standard of living will suffer. No thanks, not me. Think whatever you want of me, but I'm just following the basic principle of America :P
Those 2 shoes selling for the same price may be: 1. Both made overseas but had the label replaced with "made in USA", or 2. It's been labeled "made in USA" from the factory overseas.
Don;t believe me? Come here and I'll show you the factory where they make designer shoes (N***) or jeans (Le***) here, and label them as "made in USA". Those are the ones meant to be shipped to USA, and also sold locally as "exports surplus".
1. The guaranteed Bankruptcy GM will undergo...see below for the Orphan in this story...and
2. The UAW will own a controlling share of the new entity...how much will really change under these conditions??
The biggest sticking point in any bid to avoid bankruptcy is the complexity of GM's debts. Chrysler's 40-odd creditors could fit into a large conference room. GM's creditors, however, could fill up most of the seats in the University of Michigan's football stadium. The bondholders include an estimated 127 major financial institutions, including banks, hedge funds and mutual funds, as well as 100,000 or so small holders that represent a cross section of American savers.
The bondholders complain that neither GM nor the U.S. Treasury Department has held any kind of serious discussion with them. In fact, GM CEO Henderson has described the offer to bondholders — 225 shares of GM stock for every $1,000 of bond face value — as a take-it-or-leave-it proposition.
IMVHO, the best US-built cars will come from a more cottage industry rather than a giant conglomerate run by hedge fund capital and UAW geniuses.
I suspect right-to-work has much less to do with it than other, unspecified, factors. Texas has no zoning IIRC. In Ohio siting a plant can be an ordeal. Having no personal income tax makes Florida and Texas more attractive. But naively the WSJ article misses the business taxes in Ohio.
It all adds up to making places like Ohio, California and Michigan less desirable for starting or expanding a business. I am not sure how bad Ohio taxes are. I doubt they are any worse than CA, NY or IL. When Honda opened the Marysville plant in 1982, the political climate was MUCH healthier as we were starting to recover from the Carter years. The fact that the UAW has not busted Honda is a good indicator of the workers opinion of the Union. How many Honda jobs have been lost in the last few years? My opinion of Right to Work was mostly negative until I started looking at other Unions. I did not understand in 1970 why the Alaska Teamsters refused to be affiliated with the Teamster's International. It was a pure case of not wanting to be corrupted by that [non-permissible content removed] Jimmy Hoffa. Our Pension plan is totally separate and very well run. The same cannot be said for all Union Pension plans. If you look at any business model. You would not want to start with a noose around your neck. The strong Union states are NOT business friendly. And their economy today reflects that. You cannot force someone to build widgets in a state that acts like they are the enemy. I know that CA has run off more business than they have been able to entice into the state. I do not see a problem with offering tax incentives, land, water etc to get a business to move in. All states including Ohio have done that.
Your assumption is based on IF everybody's in the union. Unless everybody's unionized, such high wages for everybody is impossible, and before you know it non-unionized immigrants (yes even legal ones) will take over their jobs for less. That'll kill American job market within seconds.
Looks like high wages forced some workers into the upper right-hand quadrant of the dependency matrix below. I guess non of those are UAW members right??
You already know the management of the D3 must have been there using the heavy stuff to continue to produce gas hogs as the energy crisis unfolded in the 1970's. :surprise:
".....It is more important for the company to make a better profit margin than for the workers to unionize...profits will hopefully keep the company operating, offering employment to SOME workers...if the union kills the company, NONE of the workers have a job...that is why I repeat that you could not simply "replace" Henry Ford with another visionary entrepreneur, but his 300,000 workers could be replaced by any living body with no special abilities except the ability to breathe and show up sober..."
I see a company's only goal as to make a product or offer a service that the buying public wants.....plain and simple. Profits, whether they be small or large, are a byproduct of this, as are the jobs it creates, both blue and white collar.
Now, I'm not speaking of Joe's Small Engine Repair, something owned by Joe the retiree to occupy 20 hrs/wk of his time. So, let's speak of Ford for example. You are right, that ole Henry was almost irreplaceable at the time, but by then FoMoCo had taken on a life of it's own, and was itself MORE important than any one employee, INCLUDING ole Henry himself. On the surface, what you say about the "300,000 employees" may seem sound, but the fact is, nothing compares to experience. In spite of what you say about the UAW, I'm sure the overwhelming majority of the workers were and are decent people. Wipe the slate clean, and you get rid of the people who are an asset to your company, along with the rifraff. That may do more harm than good.
You guys can bring up Eastern Airlines, but I'll point to Enron. In both cases, the criminal part was what happened to the "company". may they both rest in peace.
Comments
Lemko - the flaw in your analysis is that it doesn't take into account the point we were talking about - the impact of high wages on consumer prices. You're assuming that you'd be getting a better shirt for your $30.... however the context of these remarks is to point that with UAW level wages, you'd be getting the $10 quality shirt.....but paying $30 dollars for it. Increased wages don't add value to the shirt. That has to come from better design or materials. If labor costs are cheaper, you have the ability to add better design and materials at any given price point.
Andre and gagrice - One of the things we've talked about at other times is that when you do inflation adjusted calculations, you pay about the same percent of salary for a car or a little less nowaday than you did in the late 50's or early 60's but you get a lot more content for the price - airbags, power windows, etc.
Most of that is the result of material, design and worker productivity improvements, but most of those improvements in were forced material, design and worker productivity by price competition. This is where the Japanese forced quality improvements on Detroit - value for the dollar - and where the Koreans are putting pressure on the Japanese now.
One of the last areas where there's been no foreign competition until recently was in major appliances. Now with the advent of foreign companies on the scene, we're finally starting to see some design changes.
Free trade isn't free, especially when undertaken with social and environmental criminals who continue to show no true signs of reform.
It's a race to the bottom for the developed world.
I pretty much agree with your analysis there. Although the latest from MB is kind of Asian looking to me. Like when Dodge made their PU trucks ugly Ford tried to out ugly them and GM followed suit. Toyota had no problem copying ugly with the Tundra. Ford is coming back around a bit. Still no new truck I would want.
You just may have to keep your current rides a LONG time. We got 20 on our LS400 and I just put a new set of tires. That means at least 5 more year and 25k more miles. Unless we give it to family.
And therein lies the problem, Lemko. Most of the UAW workers think they're entitled to that kind of lifestyles. And I sure as hell will never support them for that.
Do I want a t-shirt that last 3 yrs? No I don;t, as there's no t-shirt anywhere in the world that can last that long without the fabric losing it's color. :P even worse if it costs $30.
sad as it may be, it's those cheap products that allow us Americans to maintain our lifestyles. Would you be willing to sacrifice all those for the sake of other Americans and patriotism? Even if you do, how many others will follow? Will that even be enough? Think about it.
Those darned chosen people again! Certainly not the UAW!
GM Nears Deal With UAW (Fox). Supposed to save $1 billion a year.
"Chrysler LLC, seeking to sell most of its assets out of bankruptcy to a new company run by Fiat SpA, won’t have to contend with a strike by the United Auto Workers until at least 2015."
Chrysler Agreement Prevents Strike by UAW Until at Least 2015 (Bloomberg)
One Billion down, $38 Billion to go. That is just to break even. If GM cannot make a profit they need to close up shop and let an automaker that can survive. GM has been a road block to the Auto industry for TOO MANY YEARS.
I am betting as soon as the door shuts on GM that Ford will blossom. Along with the Ford stock I bought. So I am anticipating a quick and decisive liquidation of Government Motors along with Chrysler. Though the reality is the UAW Retirees could tie it up in court for decades.
Years ago, my father told me a saying, "Only the rich can afford to buy cheap, the rest of us need value"...in my mind, a $30 shirt that lasts is better then a $10 one that has to be replaced 4 times a year...
But, stop for a second: the people who "live" at WalMart do NOT think that way...while many folks shop W-M, it is the lower income folks that they appeal to the most...they, lemko, do NOT run around in Park Avenues and DTS's, and do not think ahead...they buy what is the cheapest...the Waltins are billionaires because Sam knew the vast majority thinks like poor people, not the way you think...so, while your shirt logic makes sense to the educated, WalMart thinks the other way and makes their billions...
That is why we do not make shirts here, except for custom shirtmakers who sell at a much higher price to those who can afford it...and they aren't unionized either...just well paid because of a skill of a tailor...
Without unions, would we go back to sweatshop conditions???...no, one of the great accomplishments of unions was the 40 hour workweek, overtime, vacations, etc, now part of federal and state laws...I always give them credit for that, which was why they did a great job in the 30s and 40s, into the 50s...and that is why they have been obsolete for 30 years but continue to run their companies into bankruptcy, because the pendulum has swung too far, and those gold-plated health and retirement benefits that sound so good are simply not affordable...no matter how you slice it, if the money is not there, the company cannot afford it...scream about "contracts" all you want, a contract that cannot be afforded is a contract that MUST be breached, leaving the beneficiaries in the lurch...no other way around it...
When BMW Manufacturing was selecting a state for their US plant the company had two requirements:
1. The state had to be a "Right to Work" state
2. The state could have no auto plants located in it.
In essence they wanted a non-union workforce that had not picked up any bad auto making habits. If you visit the Greer plant today you will find the employee lot filled with BMW cars and bikes. Do you think that those workers need(or want) UAW representation?
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Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
They simply have been insulated from reality, and suddenly someone is blowing the door off the airplane hangar and the sunshine is blinding them, as they have never seen so much reality at once...if you want an example of how little they know about reality, they are more insulated from the real world than Paris Hilton...
I mostly shop at thrift shops. I have a list of top brand Hawaiian shirts MADE IN HAWAII, that I watch for. I bought two Kahala's last week for $6. One looked like it had never been worn. I wear Hawaiian shirts about 75% of the time. T-shirts the rest. I have pants that are at least 10 years old that are still like new. I mostly wear shorts. I have not bought any for at least 10 years. I have never bought any cloths at Walmart. Everything I buy there is Made in USA. Wine, plants, birdseed. If they were to become UAW I would have to shop elsewhere. Of course they would be out of business in 6 months.
those gold-plated health and retirement benefits that sound so good are simply not affordable
The idea of an unskilled worker retiring at 50 years of age with a fat pension is so far removed from 99% of Americans that they are appalled to find that is what has brought GM and Chrysler to bankruptcy. I talked to a guy from Pittsburgh today that would like to retire next year when he turns 70 years of age. He is out visiting his son and family. Our Union eliminated their retirement at 45 the year I turned 45. I could have taken it. I would be a Walmart greeter getting by on much less than I now have.
Gee, Bob, you've successfully made Paris Hilton sound like Einstein by comparison with UAW. :P
And Steve, you're not telling me that a 1987 t-shirt is still in like-new condition, are you?
"The Detroit-based union also agreed to accept a 55 percent stake in the new company to fulfill half of the automaker’s $10.6 billion liability to a union retiree health-care fund."
Is this saying that 55% of the "New" Chrysler would belong to the union? And that would be used to deal with half the health care liability? Don't see how a company could stay in business that way.
I'm really confused on this. Any help or thoughts most appreciated.
Kip
My T-shirt story starts with a Crazy Shirt I bought in Kona in the late 1970s. I wore that shirt until it was threadbare. Crazy shirt's used to be guaranteed for life. So I took it back in the 1990s and traded it for a new one. It never was the same. Should have kept the original. Speaking of high labor costs. Crazy Shirts was forced into bankruptcy in 2001. The new owners moved the factory out of CA and back to Hawaii. They are now making a good profit again. States like CA and Michigan will not be satisfied until they have driven every industry out of their states with over regulation, high taxes and OVER PAID UNSKILLED WORKERS.
Don't feel alone being confused. If VEBA owns 55% of the stock, is it worthless under bankruptcy. If not and they are now in control, who would be crazy enough to invest in such a losing venture? Oh, I forgot Obama will keep investing OPM (Other People's Money). Keep the UAW afloat no matter what the cost to the US Tax Payers.
But, things have changed...if the shirt was now made by union labor, I wonder if Castrol would give it away for free with a case of oil...and we know that most shirts for the masses are made in China or Thailand or Bangladesh (Van Heusen) because labor here is too expensive...I am sure the union did the shirtmakers what the UAW did to the automakers...
gagrice: "99% of Americans that they are appalled to find that is what has brought GM and Chrysler to bankruptcy"...that is what I mean...up until now, the average American knew as much about the UAW and their faults as I know about nuclear physics...now, with the publicity, the average Joe making $12-20/hour is quite knowledgeable that he is paying taxes to bailout workers with less skill than him, to maintain their pay at a level far above his, and I am sure he is upset...with the number of $70/hour floating around, I am sure the average guy is wondering with that kind of pay, how come his Big 3 cars over the last 25 years have been junk, and now he knows (lemko excepted...I think GM should erect a "Gratitude Statue" to lemko for his undying loyalty, yet his sheer ignorance as to why others now avoid GM like the bubonic plague)...
I think the curtain has been pulled back on the UAW, and the nation has found out that the emperor has no clothes...the UAW had it good, yet they are too stupid to know when to stop, so they drove the final nail in the coffin and will lose 1000s more jobs, and still have no idea why...rocky needs to stop talking about how intelligent they are, because the UAW makes my dog look smart, and I don't mean to insult my dog...
They've been trying but with these UAW sculptors it's taking a while.
Did it ever occur to you that if everything we consume were made here at union pay, then the common folk would be able to afford all the necessities in life and some of the luxuries, only because they would be paid a union wage????
(sigh.....) Another one......Would everything cost 10 times as much? Quite possible. But the bigger picture is how would everybody's standard of living be? We could, in effect, go back to prices of the 1920's, along with those wages as well (would we accept 25 cents/hr?) but, again, if we could afford a $750 new car on that wage, or buy a small ranch house, then everything would be fine.
My wife's grandmother remarked the other day how hard her father had it (he had to take care of 4 girls and a very sick wife). She said that it was very difficult for him doing all that, and paying a $3,000 mortgage all on $16/wk. I could concur that it was a very difficult life, but financially, if you look at the figures, it WAS doable back then. A $25/mo mortgage for a blue collar worker making $16/wk (not the $25/wk that Ford's employees made).
Today, around here, that $3,000 house would cost close to $300,000. But, how many blue collar workers can say they bring home $1,600/wk for that $2,500/mo mortgage? Hell, how many college grads can lay claim to that?? Where is the standard of living comparability today as opposed to 80 years ago? I'll tell you where, it's in China and India.
It is also possible that your price comparisons may be simply because some unions made concessions to keep the work here, so that you are seeing the RESULT of what a reasonable union might do when faced with 100% job loss...it is what we expect of of the UAW, but they will not concede enough to make the Big 3 profitable, so more plants will be closed and moved out of the country...
My basic underlying premise is simple...most, not all, unions only serve to raise the cost of labor to a company and create serious roadblocks to eliminating the bad employees, so that the overall quality of whatever they do will severely decrease over time...now, if the product or service can tolerate the increased cost by raising prices, everything seems OK (think UAW 1980s, 1990s)...until it reaches the breaking point, either in cost or poor quality...that is what we have here in the UAW...cost went up, quality went way down, customers deserted the companies, and all the union can do is keep the worthless and useless on the assembly line, whereas Honda and Toyota can fire them at will, which is the way EVERY company should operate...if you can dump the bad ones in a heartbeat, the others learn very quickly that poor quality, poor attitude, poor workmanship will NOT be tolerated, a concept that is quite alien to the UAW, and will always be so, since they simply cannot "get it."
Otherwise, just axe the unions and it's cheaper all the way around. :shades:
Regards,
OW
It very well may be the result of honest to goodness negotiations. But the fact is that they can STILL be made here competitively.
But the fact is that Walmart dictates to these companies the price they will pay for "your" product, or the will get it from someone else. A small manufacturing company doesn't have the clout to say no. Levi's aren't made here anymore because "we" don't care about the quality of the jeans, "we" just want the cheapest, and "we" includes corporations like Walmart or K-Mart.
You notice the price of an X-BOX is the same, no matter where you buy it. That's because the shoe is on the other foot.
What we have here is the Wall Street mentality with financial shenanigans.
A few years back there was a TV program (maybe more recently on cable) about how Walmart has setups in China to help companies quickly and easily start production of their products there. When companies don't want to reduce their prices enough for Walmart, they are shown how they can produce it in China and sell it to Walmart at the price Walmart wants (and probably make more profit than producing here in US).
In other words Walmart has been a moving force in sending jobs out of the country.
The idea that if goods were produced here at living wages then people would be able to buy those goods at a sometimes higher price because the people would have a higher income sounds right to me. As more jobs are moved out of any kind of union production to China et al, we lose.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
My Uncle was a big commie union man and a machinist for Eastern. He had to work on repairing the rides for Disney after they folded. He and his buddies certainly showed those rich fat cats. :P
This forum has taken a sharp right turn away from the UAW and car industry to why are goods made in China. IMO, the goods are made in China simply because they can be made cheaper and greater profits can be realized by the retailer that sells them (Wally Mart). If a pair of shoes that retails for $100 can be made here for $80 but made in China for $20, then Wally Mart buys the Chinese made shoes and then sells the $100 pair for $90. Unions didn't kill the clothing industry here, sweat shop child labor in China did. And due to our US child labor laws, it was simply impossible to compete.
My mother and grandmother worked in a sewing factory during and after the War in Los Angeles. They worked piece work, which is a dirty word in the Union shops. They worked hard to support my sister and myself. I don't ever recall them referring to them as sweat shops. Maybe that was the workers that could not make any money on piece work.
The Unions did play a part in pushing the garment industry out of the USA. Same as the UAW has played a part in the current mess.
The UAW is like the guy who murdered both of his parents and then pled for mercy because he was an orphan...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-2021 Sahara 4xe-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i
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2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
No, everyone should not be in a union...better than every union should be disbanded and annihilated...in the long run, both the company and the employees will be better off...maybe gagrice is the exception, since their union seemed to comprehend about killing the goose that "excretes" the gold...
Without lemko, Caddy goes under in about a week... :P
This link was posted elsewhere but could be relevant here. A foreign car may document as largely manufactured here but parts may actually be imported and if the right ones are assembled into larger parts that counts as US content.
So how US is a Civic? The Dodge dealer apparently felt she should have done her Civic duty and bought a Dodge. Their minds were not of one Accord on this. We don't know what Caliber of worker the young lady is, but since I've heard a thousand times if once that a car assembled here is more US content than one assembled with parts from Mexico or Canada or even assembled in Canada/Mexico.
The UAW has taken all kinds of grief, and some is deserved. But There is lots more to the determination of US content than just where some parts were assembled.
I think it's time for the UAW to publicize more about the foreign content in US assembled foreign cars for foreign manufacturers.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Now, if she had just belonged to a union like the UAW, she would not have to run to NBC to get the story out. The shop steward could have fixed the problem.
Or at least bought her a beer...
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Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
My Sunday School teacher is in the construction business. He is a top notch builder. He bid to build a HUD house for the city of Atlanta. He gave them his proposal and they decided they wanted union workers across the board. He re figured the cost and it was a little over twice that of using non union workers. Materials were the same. The cost of labor made the big difference.
If everything we consume was made at union wages, the "common folk", as you put it, could not afford nearly what they can now.
If everybody worked for a union, everything manufactured here would be much more expensive. We would be in run away inflation, and couldn't export anything because of the high price. Unions wouldn't tolerate anything being imported.
The burger flipper would be at $30 an hour plus bennefits and the Big Mac could be $10 instead of $2.50. $100K houses would be $300K and so on. All the union workers have the same wage and bennefits and all prices are higher than now, so their buying power shrinks. Union workers couldn't even afford what they can afford now.
When it gets to that point, everybody is union and earning earning the same wage no matter the job done, you have socialism. The small businessman can't pay the wages, and Obama takes over his business.
If you have a plan, I'm willing to discuss it!
Kip
The "there are other reasons we can't talk about that let us decide on the day she came with a gift Civic to fire her" sounds like good cover. but I don't believe it any more than I believe Nancy Pelosi.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I am not sure why the concept is so hard to understand. I do believe your contractor friend. I don't think a Union home builder still exists in So CA. My brother in law was a Union Carpenter out of the San Francisco hall. In 1986 he was making $29 per hour, when I was making $20 per hour in AK. Now you will be hard pressed to find any carpenter jobs in CA paying more than $22 per hour. And they are glad to get that. Home prices have dropped so low here that you cannot build a house as cheap as you can buy an existing home. Even with the lower priced labor. Banks are tearing down brand new subdivisions because they do not want to lose anymore money.
The homes were part of a planned 16-unit project in this community 100 miles north of Los Angeles. The Texas bank that owns the failed development decided to demolish the houses, a cheaper alternative to completing and selling them.
The Victorville demolition is one of the most dramatic ends to a bad bet made during the housing boom, but abandoned developments have become an all-too-common sight in California. Nearly 250 residential developments totaling 9,389 homes have been halted across the state, according to one research firm.
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-demolish5-2009may05,0,4930126.story
The bottom line is the UAW workers at GM and Chrysler should have begged their leaders to drop their wages to $15 per hour across the board to save their jobs. They are greedy and will lose their jobs, with NO hope of getting close to their old wages for their level of skill. They can blame management or whatever they like. It will do no good when the unemployment runs out and they are still looking for that $30 per hour job with NO marketable skill. The trades such as electricians will probably be able to knock down between $20-$25 per hour. Though they may have to move out of the Right to lose your job states in the Midwest.
If you accept that more people making Union wages will raise prices, you have to accept that those currently making UAW wages will be impacted and able to buy less. Or do we raise the UAW wages to $45 per hour because the guy at WalMart is making $30 per hour. It is a never ending struggle to see who can get the most money. Been that way since Noah. Closer to home here in a nutshell is the problem with Ohio.
A March 3, 2008 editorial in The Wall Street Journal compared Ohio to Texas and examined why "Texas is prospering while Ohio lags". According to the editorial, during the previous decade, while Ohio lost 10,400 jobs, Texas created 1,615,000 new jobs. The article cites several reasons for the economic expansion in Texas, including the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), the absence of a state income tax, and right-to-work laws
Ohio's most crippling handicap may be that its politicians — and thus its employers — are still in the grip of such industrial unions as the United Auto Workers. Ohio is a "closed shop" state, which means workers can be forced to join a union whether they wish to or not. Many companies — especially foreign-owned — say they will not even consider such locations for new sites. States with "right-to-work" laws that make union organizing more difficult had twice the job growth of Ohio and other forced union states from 1995–2005, according to the National Institute for Labor Relations.wiki
The time period examined shows it had little to do with who was President. Six of those years was during the Clinton Presidency.
I suspect right-to-work has much less to do with it than other, unspecified, factors. Texas has no zoning IIRC. In Ohio siting a plant can be an ordeal. Having no personal income tax makes Florida and Texas more attractive. But naively the WSJ article misses the business taxes in Ohio. The biggest complaint about getting businesses into Ohio is that the business taxes are higher than other states.
We're back to the competition between states with lowest taxes for the company.
The right-to-work didn't seem to affect Honda with its two auto plants and an engine plant and motorcycle plant (I haven't looked up the data but I believe all those are right). Honda even had Ohio on its short list when it picked Indiana who conveniently forgave lots of taxes and gave lots of aid along with setting up a legalized jobs discrimination with a specified hiring plan that excludes the area near Anderson which had lots of GM supplier plants from being in the list of those within 50 miles IIRC of the location of plant for hiring. It gave specific openings for Indianapolis residents to apply.
People who had lived in TX in past decades who moved back talked about many problems in TX.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
While not all unions are bad, and I actually support it if the job vacancies are dominated by a single employer (like government jobs, etc), I personally have no interest in joining union, and never will.
As for your shoes example, it's not that simple. A huge retailer here (can't give you a name) sells both American made and Vietnamese made shoes, both the same model, the American cost $150 and the Vietnamese cost $106. While the difference may not seem to much, imagine how you'll have to spend 50% extra on everything if you're to buy American made only. Yes that'll probably help the workers getting higher wages, but that means my standard of living will suffer. No thanks, not me. Think whatever you want of me, but I'm just following the basic principle of America :P
Those 2 shoes selling for the same price may be:
1. Both made overseas but had the label replaced with "made in USA", or
2. It's been labeled "made in USA" from the factory overseas.
Don;t believe me? Come here and I'll show you the factory where they make designer shoes (N***) or jeans (Le***) here, and label them as "made in USA". Those are the ones meant to be shipped to USA, and also sold locally as "exports surplus".
1. The guaranteed Bankruptcy GM will undergo...see below for the Orphan in this story...and
2. The UAW will own a controlling share of the new entity...how much will really change under these conditions??
The biggest sticking point in any bid to avoid bankruptcy is the complexity of GM's debts. Chrysler's 40-odd creditors could fit into a large conference room. GM's creditors, however, could fill up most of the seats in the University of Michigan's football stadium. The bondholders include an estimated 127 major financial institutions, including banks, hedge funds and mutual funds, as well as 100,000 or so small holders that represent a cross section of American savers.
The bondholders complain that neither GM nor the U.S. Treasury Department has held any kind of serious discussion with them. In fact, GM CEO Henderson has described the offer to bondholders — 225 shares of GM stock for every $1,000 of bond face value — as a take-it-or-leave-it proposition.
IMVHO, the best US-built cars will come from a more cottage industry rather than a giant conglomerate run by hedge fund capital and UAW geniuses.
Regards,
OW
It all adds up to making places like Ohio, California and Michigan less desirable for starting or expanding a business. I am not sure how bad Ohio taxes are. I doubt they are any worse than CA, NY or IL. When Honda opened the Marysville plant in 1982, the political climate was MUCH healthier as we were starting to recover from the Carter years. The fact that the UAW has not busted Honda is a good indicator of the workers opinion of the Union. How many Honda jobs have been lost in the last few years? My opinion of Right to Work was mostly negative until I started looking at other Unions. I did not understand in 1970 why the Alaska Teamsters refused to be affiliated with the Teamster's International. It was a pure case of not wanting to be corrupted by that [non-permissible content removed] Jimmy Hoffa. Our Pension plan is totally separate and very well run. The same cannot be said for all Union Pension plans. If you look at any business model. You would not want to start with a noose around your neck. The strong Union states are NOT business friendly. And their economy today reflects that. You cannot force someone to build widgets in a state that acts like they are the enemy. I know that CA has run off more business than they have been able to entice into the state. I do not see a problem with offering tax incentives, land, water etc to get a business to move in. All states including Ohio have done that.
Looks like high wages forced some workers into the upper right-hand quadrant of the dependency matrix below. I guess non of those are UAW members right??
You already know the management of the D3 must have been there using the heavy stuff to continue to produce gas hogs as the energy crisis unfolded in the 1970's. :surprise:
Regards,
OW
I see a company's only goal as to make a product or offer a service that the buying public wants.....plain and simple. Profits, whether they be small or large, are a byproduct of this, as are the jobs it creates, both blue and white collar.
Now, I'm not speaking of Joe's Small Engine Repair, something owned by Joe the retiree to occupy 20 hrs/wk of his time. So, let's speak of Ford for example. You are right, that ole Henry was almost irreplaceable at the time, but by then FoMoCo had taken on a life of it's own, and was itself MORE important than any one employee, INCLUDING ole Henry himself. On the surface, what you say about the "300,000 employees" may seem sound, but the fact is, nothing compares to experience. In spite of what you say about the UAW, I'm sure the overwhelming majority of the workers were and are decent people. Wipe the slate clean, and you get rid of the people who are an asset to your company, along with the rifraff. That may do more harm than good.
You guys can bring up Eastern Airlines, but I'll point to Enron. In both cases, the criminal part was what happened to the "company". may they both rest in peace.