Then, union would require 3 to 5 roving union helpers in parking lot at all times to offer help to customers to remove purchased items from cart and place in vehicle. These rovers would then return carts to proper stalls.
You had it all correct until this part. There would be "rover zones". Each rover could only rove in their zone. So a cart in the parking lot would be passed zone to zone until it got back to the store. There would be a set of supervisors to watch and coordinate the rover communications between zones. About 10 union staff could do the entire job. :P
that's what unions did to the railroad. Every train had to have a conductor, brakeman, electrician, and one other person, don't recall his title ...uh, the engineer?
Nope - the job he's trying to think of is "Fireman" - the guy who shoveled coal into the firebox under the boiler. My Grandfather was one back in the early 1920's for a while. Long after all the trains had converted to diesel/electric, union rules still required that all the trains have a fireman.
Fortunately or unfortunately, my Grandfather got out of railroads and into oil....Wish he'd bought some wells, though
If they are, the out of work must not be hungry or they would pick them up. My guess is they are openings for professional people. Nurses, engineers, SKILLED TRADES, etc. Obama's stimulus added 66,000 Government jobs last month. Sad part is they are all Temps. Something the UAW deplores. Our friend that got one to teach people how to write a resume'. It is only 6 months and she is back looking for work. She is enjoying working again.
All of these miss having some highly paid management folks to tell the workers which shopping carts can be bought and how many can be collected. The highly paid management positions will have diamond parachutes to insure their livelihood forever if the store closes. The highly paid management jobs will ignore how other stores handle their shopping cart collections in the realm of the parking lot. The highly paid management will purchase shopping carts that are harder to handle for the collectors and the customers.
The highly paid management will ignore that the US government helps foreign shopping cart producers import and manufacture carts in the US that are easier to use and lighter than the ones they have and therefore are liked by customers. The carts also have chic aura producing machines on them which influence all who push them to feel they are better than carts at the UAW Walmart store. Eventually the government will mandate that the heavier, not chic carts at Walmart have to meet the same chic aura as carts the government has helped manufacture. The government will not help Walmart or UAW replace the nonchic carts with the ones people think they like better but will expect old carts to have same effect (think CAFE).
Senator wants to take 1000 jobs from elsewhere in the country and have GM move them to Delaware because Delaware is losing 1000 jobs at Saturn plant.
Does this guy have any reality in his head about what has been happening for 15 years in Ohio and Michigan? Does he think Gm should just take jobs from other communities and mvoe them because Delaware is losing some?
"Obama's stimulus added 66,000 Government jobs last month. Sad part is they are all Temps"...gagrice, be GRATEFUL that the jobs are all temps, as these are GOV'T jobs...if we want smaller government the last thing we need is for the gov't to become the employer of last resort...so, the private sector shrinks, which pays money INTO the system, while gov't expands, with more emplyees taking money OUT OF the system...
The last thing we need is MORE people working for the gov't, doing NOTHING, as we have enough UAW workers who do nothing and collect their paychecks...
One other thing about the railroad union...I believe the contract also mandated a "cabooseman" which further raised the train overhead by the salaries for those people, but the function of the cabooseman was made unnecessary by some kind of technology...the only way to get rid of the caboosemen was to eliminate the caboose...that is why you rarely see a caboose on a train these days, DisneyWorld and shopping malls notwithstanding...
Senator Carper-Delaware...if this does not prove beyond any reasonable doubt of the stupidity of our Congress, I don't know what will...since they will lose 1000 jobs, GM should just move a plant there to give back 1000 jobs...the Senator must have been in the UAW, because he has no idea how a business runs, and our UAW is just as stupid...
Thanks...that was interesting info...but I have more fun beating on rocky, which we don't seem to do anymore...to paraphrase a Motown singer..."the thrill is gone"... :P
All of these miss having some highly paid management folks to tell the workers which shopping carts can be bought and how many can be collected. The highly paid management positions will have diamond parachutes to insure their livelihood forever if the store closes. The highly paid management jobs will ignore how other stores handle their shopping cart collections in the realm of the parking lot.
You had it correct until this last sentence. The highly paid management would actually want some efficiency like the other stores. But the union cart workers would fight the loss of jobs. Even though the store down the street moved the carts with only 2 workers, the union would want 10 to continue doing it. They would be proud of the fact that their company employed more workers at a living wage.
>"Then, union would require 3 to 5 roving union helpers in parking lot at all times to offer help to customers to remove purchased items from cart and place in vehicle. These rovers would then return carts to proper stalls."
You may be right. But, I don't think the Cart unloaders would be required to return the carts to the parking stations. That would be another persons job. Then another one to get those carts back to the front door. And yet another to take them into the store.
And let's not forget that on particularly hot sunny days, or rainy days, other workers may be required to carry umbrellas.
"Welcome to Walmart, you may notice a slight 300% increase in item cost due to the extra care you are receiving, whether you desire it or not. We know what you want, better than you do". :shades:
>You had it correct until this last sentence. The highly paid management
I see your point. I was thinking from another point of view. I was thinking that the management would continue with 10 layers of managers while the other companies would organize the work in the plant, I mean parking lot, with a single manager who is one pay level above the highest paid worker in the parking lot. Mine was a criticism of the many managers using their very valuable MBA degrees to tell people how things should be done--all 10 of them.
Rocky is in TX if we recall correctly being beaten up on by his exwife.
Do you do divorce work? It sounds like his is among the nastiest--it's even worse than the scripted, farcical Judge Mabelline (or whatever her look-alike replacement is named) on Divorce Court.
>and further on topic
Has anyone found humor in the announcement yesterday that the Union folk are upset that GM might have to manufacture cars in China for import into the US because of their high wages and damage done to the company?
The move will be fiercely challenged by GM's unions. "GM should not be taking taxpayer's money simply to finance the outsourcing of jobs to other countries," said Alan Reuther, a lobbyist for the United Auto Workers union. He added that the number of extra cars that GM plans to import will be equal to the output of four US assembly plants, "the same number that GM plans to close". --Alan Ruether
I find sadistic humor in ANYTHING the UAW says, simply because, after all the job loss, publicity about the crap from the UAW, and anything else you can think of, they still don't get it...they prove their simple ignorance every day, and just when you think they can't get any dumber, they surprise us with another stupid thought...they are beyond belief...stupid AT work, stupid OUT OF work, they simply think they are worth $35/hour to sweep floors (they regret that the sweeping was farmed out to someone else, they cannot understand why no one wants to pay a 3rd grade-level worker $35/hour, plus benefits, to sweep a floor...after all, think of the skill and training required!!!)...
I have thought about doing divorce, but as of yet I don't...I am fairly familiar with it, though...they are always classified as the WHINIEST clients, even worse than those going to jail for criminal acts..."He didn't bring the kids home by 6:00 pm, like our divorce mandates, they just waltzed in here at 6:03 pm like nothing was wrong"...what amazes me is what people will do to get away from somebody, and how often parents and grandparents will gladly pay good $$$ to assist in divorce...they may let their kid rot in jail for crime, but to get away from that rotten wife/husband???...open the wallets and let it flow...so why don't I do it???...sometimes even good money ain't enough to deal with the clients and their 17 phone calls a day and other aggravation... :P ...it ain't just money, there is peace of mind, and you will not have any with divorce clients...nothing is ever perfect for them..."I got the house, both cars, and he pays all the bills, but he got our Matchbox car collection of 3 cars, worth $12.00, and that just isn't fair...and he still gets to breathe oxygen, can we stop that, too???"...
If GM imports all of its vehicles from China, they lost me forever as a customer. They could go out of business for all I care and I'd hope to see Fritz Henderson in hell along with Roger Smith! :mad: If it's just the crappy little econo cars, I could care less. I was never in the market for them no matter who manufactures them.
I see your point. I was thinking from another point of view. I was thinking that the management would continue with 10 layers of managers while the other companies would organize the work in the plant, I mean parking lot, with a single manager who is one pay level above the highest paid worker in the parking lot. Mine was a criticism of the many managers using their very valuable MBA degrees to tell people how things should be done--all 10 of them.
I agree. So in our scenario the WalMart environment that mirrors GM would have 10 cart workers at high expense to retrieve carts, and many layers of gold plated management to further add to the cost.
The comparable company down the block that was non-union would have 2 cart workers and one manager as you suggested.
Both sets of problems (management AND the union) contributed to the demise of the D2.
If GM imports all of its vehicles from China, they lost me forever as a customer
That would be the all time dumbest move by any business and they would lose even the staunchest GM supporters.
I was browsing through Bass Pro shops here in Orlando last weekend and decided to look at the tags to see where things were made. 90% was made in China, with the rest between Korea, Japan, Vietnam, and even Pakistan. I found a grand total of one item made in the USA.
The only thing the UAW would do with WalMart is to lower the overall quality of the workers, add hundreds of workers (and overhead) to accomplish a zero increase in work performed, but many more jobs "created", and then attract the lowest quality workers to perform the lowest quality work in the lowest possible quantity, thereby permanently contaminating WalMart as a viable company...that is all the UAW knows how to do, it is all they have done, and it is all they will attempt to do if they continue to exist...they do not get it, and they are incapable of getting it, because the average intelligence of the average UAW member would barely equal the IQ level of my dog...and that is an insult to my dog...
"WILMINGTON, Delaware (Reuters) - Ford Motor Co's (NYSE:F - News) restructuring is on track to bring a profit as soon as 2011, without the need for emergency government bridge loans, executives told stockholders on Thursday at the automaker's annual meeting.
Ford shareholders also approved the company's funding plan for a healthcare trust for United Auto Workers union retirees... "
If the idiots at the D3 invested the wasted money on UAW contracts into flexible and highly automated plants and produced cars better than the rest at far less cost, all cars WOULD have been made here.
But sadly greed begot more greed and hence, failure. :sick:
Just think, if all that stuff was made here - NOBODY would be out of work!
NOBODY could afford to go fishing either. With $30 per hour UAW workers making lures the prices would be out of sight. These are all thing we lost decades ago to cheaper labor. It just took longer to catch up to your Buick and GM.
If the UAW had offered to cut everyone back to $15 per hour and dump the retiree health care plan back in 2005, GM would probably be profitable and this thread never would exist.
$15 an hour? Sad. The guys building the cars can't afford one themselves! It's like that barefoot Vietnamese girl sewing those $150 Air Jordans in some hellish sweatshop who can't even afford a pair of shoes herself.
Retiree health care? Health care in this country is totally out of whack, but these retirees would've ended up on Medicare costing the taxpayers that much more money! Well, I can be vicious and say those who can't afford their own private health care should just let nature run its course and kill them off when they get sick, but I'm not that sociopathic.
$15 an hour? Sad. The guys building the cars can't afford one themselves!
Well do you want to keep unskilled jobs in this country or don't you? I cannot affor a yacht either. I doubt any of the guys building yachts can afford them. Where does it say in the Constitution you have to be able to have everything? A car is a luxury in most of the world. If you are in an unskilled job riding the bus and want more, get an education and rise above the level of unskilled. The UAW and its ilk have warped the minds of unskilled workers. They made them believe they were worth more than they actually are.
The UAW is forcing those jobs over seas as sure as I am typing this. There are millions of out of work people in this country that would jump at the chance to build your Buicks and Caddies for $15 per hour. And that is high pay for what they would be doing. I dare say it takes less training than a bricklayer or a concrete finisher. And those jobs are lucky to make $15 per hour in California during the housing boom. Today it is more like $12 per hour with NO benefits.
And an out of work felon is still a felon that should be shot when caught in the act of committing a felony. And cities like Philadelphia were over run with Felons when the unemployment rate was at its lowest ever in the last decade. We have already debunked the idea that crime goes up with unemployment.
Wonder how the UAW feels about 750 Chrysler dealers losing their livelihood? I hope they're scared to death that there will be 750 fewer outlets to market the poorly built (and designed) product the halfheartedly screw together, but doubt it. And who will fix these miserable products when they break? The ill-will that will be generated by the shuttering of 750 community business men and women (in mostly small, tight-knit communities) will overwhelm whatever amount of investment the Obama administration brain-trust, as well as you and I, can afford to "invest" in Chrysler. Think the UAW cares about these dealers and their employees. No way. Like a previous post stated, as long as some overpaid broom jockey gets to keep a job, all is well! The thing that seems to get lost in these discussion is that assembling cars (we don't "build" them anymore) is not difficult or skilled work. The process is so compartmentalized and the training is so specific, that most any 11th grade student could do it. Chrysler's problems stem from years of terrible management (Daimler and Cerberus), overall miserable product and UAW greed. I'm a domestic car fan (3 Ford's and a Chevy) but I will NEVER BUY A CHRYSLER (or Fiat), given the way they've treated these dealers. And if GM does likewise, I will adopt the same philosophy toward them. Good luck, Chrysler and UAW.
circle: "If the idiots at the D3 invested the wasted money on UAW contracts into flexible and highly automated plants and produced cars better than the rest..."...Roger Smith, CEO of GM, 1981-1990, tried to automate plants with as many robots as possible, hoping to create the non-human auto plant...whether the software was bad or it was just too soon for robots, but he tried...
gagrice: "Well do you want to keep unskilled jobs in this country or don't you? I cannot affor a yacht either. I doubt any of the guys building yachts can afford them. Where does it say in the Constitution you have to be able to have everything?"...that is the other problem...people often work making something that they may not be able to afford...yachts, STS-V, high-end shotguns, etc...there is no law that says that you have to afford everything...the better law is that you are paid what you are worth, and, as the evidence shows, the UAW are not worth it...yes, I know Henry Ford paid his people so they could afford his product, but that does not mean they could afford a Packard or Duesenberg, but they could afford a base Ford...it is not that the pay is too low, it is that the car they WANT costs too much...
UAW people are starting to see reality and it hurts, but they have been spoiled children for so many generations, it is in their DNA, they really believe that someone sweeping floors is worth $35/hour as though money grows on trees...those trees are rotting away, faster than anyone thought...
I wonder what the feeling is out there in the nation...folks who never knew that UAW made our cars or that they were paid like no other unskilled labor, suddenly know what is going on, and the curtain has been pulled back from the Wizard...now, how many people who would have bought Big 3 will avoid them after understanding the shenanigans going on with overpaid floorsweepers???...if sales fall further, you might see the UAW down to 2 locals and 17 members...wouldn't THAT be heaven???
The UAW is forcing those jobs over seas as sure as I am typing this. There are millions of out of work people in this country that would jump at the chance to build your Buicks and Caddies for $15 per hour.
That is the essence of the problem. In a "normal" free market, the auto companies would pay what the market would bear, and they would still be making lots of cars here. The UAW in their greed has limited the natural ability of the job market to adjust to prevailing conditions of the workforce. The salaries and benefits are artificially inflated and the ability of the D3 to adapt is limited. The only sensible choice is for them to outsource more work to non-UAW locations.
The irony is that the non-UAW car companies (foreign nameplates) are happily building plants in this country and making good products right. It's just the American makes that can't do that competitively. Thanks UAW for helping the American economy!
w/o the govts help, GM would be either bankrupt or liquified and then there would be no union jobs left...if gettlefinger doesnt think he didnt help ruin Gm or dodge he is full of it...even during shutdown GM has to make up difference from unemployment, do they ever get a break?
Don't worry, the new American Automobile Manufacturers will make a stament of future business forecast similar to this one. This is a mass economic change for the entire global market.
"Panasonic expects that the economic environment in fiscal 2010 will be more severe than the past fiscal year, as the global recession and shrinking demand triggered by the financial crisis coincide with changes in market structure, including the expansion of emerging markets and a shift to lower-priced products," it said in a statement.
The irony is that the non-UAW car companies (foreign nameplates) are happily building plants in this country and making good products right. It's just the American makes that can't do that competitively. Thanks UAW for helping the American economy!
See, tlong, you should try telling that in front of Rocky. He's still stuck in his dream that UAW built cars are superior. :P
If all that stuff was made here at union pay, nobody could afford it, except maybe UAW workers. Then the plants would close and workers out of work. Then the companies would open plants in other countries, so they could make a profit. Sound familiar?
Yeah, I wholeheartedly tried to explain the same thing months ago. Glad to see someone else having the same thoughts as mine.
There is only a limited amount of resources and wealth available. We may discuss whether its distribution is fair or not, but simply giving everybody a 50% raise is not a solution. What would change after such a raise? Absolutely nothing. Prices of products to buy would simply increase to reflect that new buying power.
When started in 50s, UAW outrageus pay was only possible because of monopolistic position of D3. It was exactly the unfairness and inequality of their position vs. rest of the country (ability to pass any excess cost on the consumer) that allowed them to collect those paychecks. When the monopoly was broken by imports, it had to change. But it didn't and once mighty companies are now shadows of themselves.
I say it laud and clear: I don't give a dime for welfare of those 1-2 milion people affected by this crisis. Remaining 250+ milion Americans are much more important to me - and they benefit far more from better product manufactured more efficiently and more sold at lower price rather than overpriced piece of garbage - even if that product is to be build in Mexico, Brasil, Japan, Korea, Germany, or even China rather than here. Same pertains to any other product. Truth is simple and it hurts: either make it better, cheaper than others or move over and make room for those who can. No society ever prospered from supporting mediocrity.
When started in 50s, UAW outrageus pay was only possible because of monopolistic position of D3. It was exactly the unfairness and inequality of their position vs. rest of the country (ability to pass any excess cost on the consumer) that allowed them to collect those paychecks. When the monopoly was broken by imports, it had to change. But it didn't and once mighty companies are now shadows of themselves.
In 1964 I wanted a new jeep type vehicle. The only one I could afford working at the phone company was a Toyota Land Cruiser. The Jeep was about $3500 and I paid $2400 for the new LC. So even back then the UAW was making the Domestics unaffordable for the average working man. That would be me at the phone company. Someone posted wages for UAW workers at that time. They were about 50% higher than mine. That corresponds to the difference in vehicle prices.
So this has been a slow bleeding process the UAW has done to the Domestics. I personally could care less about the UAW workers. They did this with full knowledge that they were WAY OVERPAID for their unskilled positions.
The UAW had the chance in 1998 to do the right thing and offer to take a cut in pay to keep jobs in the USA. They instead opted to strike costing GM $20 Billion. They did the same thing in 2005, 2007 & 2008. The sooner the UAW is decimated the better off the USA will be.
More than likely my next vehicle will be built in Germany. As they are the only country with the foresight to offer diesel vehicles to the USA.
In 1964 I wanted a new jeep type vehicle. The only one I could afford working at the phone company was a Toyota Land Cruiser. The Jeep was about $3500 and I paid $2400 for the new LC. So even back then the UAW was making the Domestics unaffordable for the average working man.
What the hell was in that Jeep to make it so expensive? The only reference points I have from my family around that rough timeframe was a 1963 Mercury Monterrey 4-door hardtop that my Granddad bought new for about $3500, and a new 1966 Pontiac Catalina convertible that my Mom bought for around $3200. Compared to that, $3500 for a jeep just sounds extravagant...unless it was a well-equipped 4wd Wagoneer or something.
"Just think, if all that stuff was made here - NOBODY would be out of work!" ...this naive thinking goes back to my shirt-making example...if union labor made shirts, then the shirts WalMart sells for $12 would probably cost $30...so, since everyone is on a limited budget, except Bill gates, the guy who has $60 to spend on shirts will either buy 5 @ $12 or 2 @ $30...fewer shirts sold, fewer shirts made, fewer people to make them...
What union people need to understand is simple...they are now worthless and obsolete...they WERE needed, no, ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY, in the 30s and 40s, but, like buggy-whip makers, they are no longer needed and they are a hindrance to corporate profitability...I am amused at the absurdity of unionizing gov't employees...why the union, are they going to work for some OTHER gov't???
While management has its faults (Aztec, Roadmaster, Gremlin, Pacer) the UAW set world records for poor workmanship, lousy work attitude, and lowest levels of intelligence exhibited by adult workers (by striking the only GM plants making money...how rocky calls them intelligent is beyond me)...what turned Americans away was poor workmanship...when they believe that the imports are better, they buy imports...UAW did nothing to try and change that attitude, but they did everything in their power to make sure that workmanship was substandard...after all, they were getting back at "the man"...did I mention their sheer ignorance and stupidity???...that getting back at "the man" meant their jobs disappeared into thin air, but they strike because THEY are the ignorant sheeple..
I'd have no problem with those guys making $15 an hour if the price of stuff was more in line with their wages. I didn't say they were entitled to a Cadillac, but a nice Chevrolet Biscayne or Bel Air would be fine. I would like it if they could at least have the same stuff my Dad had - a modest car, a modest house in a safe, clean neighborhood, enough food for the family, and maybe enough for a modest vacation to the Jersey shore or something.
Now, if they're stupid enough to be buying 1/2 million $ houses, Escalades, boats, Ski-Doos, plasma televisions, and vacationing in the Bahamas, then they've got some fierocious money-management issues. I make way more than a UAW worker and I don't have or want any of those things. Outside of my cars, I live rather modestly. Heck, I can really be a super-miser if it weren't for my girlfriend!
I dunno. I'd rather pay $30 for a shirt made here knowing I was taking care of a fellow American and his family rather than buying the $12 shirt made in some third-world toilet by a heartless corporation that keeps impoverished kids chained to a machine while paying them pennies. That $30 shirt would probably last a long time. I bought shirts at Wal~Mart that fell apart the first time I washed them. However, I have an American made work shirt I bought in 1984 that is still with me and in good condition despite countless washings. What's better? A $30 shirt that lasts for years or three $10 shirts you have to throw away in few months?
OK, let's assume labor unions are obsolete. What's to keep companies from reverting back to 1890s sweat shop conditions, company stores, physical abuse, a wanton disregard for safety and virtually slavery of the workforce? Can we trust them to treat their employees well? Is the government going to protect them? I wouldn't count on it! They didn't do a good job protecting wealthy investors from the likes of Bernie Madoff. Who's going to look out for a bunch of lower middle-class and working class schlubs?
More than likely my next vehicle will be built in Germany
Well, if GM start importing cars exclusively from China or goes out of business altogether, I guess I will be too - a Mercedes S-Class or E-Class. I could buy a Ford product, but if find them as palatable as cold Brussels sprouts.
I cannot for the life of me see myself in any Asian luxury car. I'm not paying a premium for what is essentially a Buick Park Avenue with a psychotic price tag. I better get used to the fierocious maintenance and repair bills that come with those Teutonic tanks.
OK, let's assume labor unions are obsolete. What's to keep companies from reverting back to 1890s sweat shop conditions, company stores, physical abuse, a wanton disregard for safety and virtually slavery of the workforce? Can we trust them to treat their employees well?
I work in the software industry. No software company I know of has a union. Yet the working conditions are better than most industries, and I do not see any "sweat shop conditions" developing - even the jobs outsourced to India have a working environment which is comparable to US (if you visit the campus of an Infosys or Wipro in India, it is at par with any campus in Silicon valley).
So, my point is - Motivated employees deliver value to the company (which then gets monetized in the form of higher revenues and profits). Unfortunately there will be industries where the only differentiation is cost, and "sweat shop" conditions may develop - but that is a part of the Anglo Saxon model of capitalism. For every 100 underpaid shoe assemblers in a Vietnamese factory of Nike, there is one Nike employee in the US vacationing in St. Moritz.
To sum it up - The company management needs to maximize the value creation by its employees. In most cases, it will depend on their motivation - which depends on working conditions. So unless the management is blind to this (and therefore deserves to fail), it is not going to short change the employee.....
That was the 1965 CJ5 with V6 engine. From Buick if I remember correctly. The Datsun Patrol my first choice was about $3200. When you are only making a hundred bucks a week that was a big difference in payments. I did not want to go into my savings as that was for emergencies only. What amazes me is the Japanese could build them in Japan and ship them over cheaper than the domestics could sell vehicles built here with over priced labor. This is not a new thing. It is only the last 25-30 years that people started looking at alternatives to the D3. And their market share and profits reflect that. GM has not made a decent profit in at least 25 years. Some of the blame is on worthless management. Some goes on overpriced labor and retiree benefits.
What's to keep companies from reverting back to 1890s sweat shop conditions, company stores, physical abuse, a wanton disregard for safety and virtually slavery of the workforce?
Guess what? Even in the bad old days of the 1890s, the average American worker enjoyed the world's highest blue collar standard of living. Those sweat shops were ugly places, but most of the people who worked in them were recently-arrived immigrants who left for better jobs as soon as they learned some English & acquired marketable skills.
Working 14-hour days in a lower Manhattan sweat shop beats hell out of a short, bloody career as cannon fodder in the Czar's army.
Here's a basic economic fact: a strong & expanding economy does much, much more for a worker's standard of living than membership in a union.
I would like it if they could at least have the same stuff my Dad had - a modest car, a modest house in a safe, clean neighborhood, enough food for the family, and maybe enough for a modest vacation to the Jersey shore or something.
Yes, I wish my mother and step father had what your dad had also. Like Rocky you were raised UPPER MIDDLE CLASS. There were a lot of US that were not. We fought to get ahead. Saving as much as possible for that day we could enjoy it. Now the stinking government wants to give it all away to a bunch of overpaid UNSKILLED auto assemblers. We just have different views of the past and present based on our childhood memories. Vacation for us was visiting grandma in Oregon or CA. We NEVER took a vacation anywhere we did not stay with relatives. Even if all of us had to sleep in the car on long trips. That was two adults and 5 kids. I have NO pity on these people that did not think beyond next payday. 10,000 UAW workers filing for Bankruptcy when they lost their Overtime. Give me a break. Could not make it on $87k per year, so sad I just want to PUKE.
I make way more than a UAW worker and I don't have or want any of those things. Outside of my cars, I live rather modestly. Heck, I can really be a super-miser if it weren't for my girlfriend!
I have no problem with that as long as you are not BK your company and asking for tax dollars to maintain that level of income. That is what the UAW workers are pleading for. They could care less about GM or Chysler. It is their own greed that drives them. I would bet you are not interested in sending the UAW a check to help them out.
I cannot for the life of me see myself in any Asian luxury car.
That surprises me. After all, it was the Germans - not the Japanese or Koreans - who wiped the floor with your beloved Cadillac & made it into an object of ridicule for luxury car buyers. The head of the Toyota team that designed the first Lexus LS made it clear that their target was the S-class Mercedes. They didn't consider the Caddies of the time (late 80s) to be worthy rivals.
Drive through the parking lot of any exclusive country club in the greater NY metro area & you'll see 6 or 8 German cars for every Lexus or Infiniti.
I'm a little surprised that you aren't more anti-German.
Comments
You had it all correct until this part. There would be "rover zones". Each rover could only rove in their zone. So a cart in the parking lot would be passed zone to zone until it got back to the store. There would be a set of supervisors to watch and coordinate the rover communications between zones. About 10 union staff could do the entire job. :P
...uh, the engineer?
Nope - the job he's trying to think of is "Fireman" - the guy who shoveled coal into the firebox under the boiler. My Grandfather was one back in the early 1920's for a while. Long after all the trains had converted to diesel/electric, union rules still required that all the trains have a fireman.
Fortunately or unfortunately, my Grandfather got out of railroads and into oil....Wish he'd bought some wells, though
The highly paid management will ignore that the US government helps foreign shopping cart producers import and manufacture carts in the US that are easier to use and lighter than the ones they have and therefore are liked by customers. The carts also have chic aura producing machines on them which influence all who push them to feel they are better than carts at the UAW Walmart store. Eventually the government will mandate that the heavier, not chic carts at Walmart have to meet the same chic aura as carts the government has helped manufacture. The government will not help Walmart or UAW replace the nonchic carts with the ones people think they like better but will expect old carts to have same effect (think CAFE).
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Does this guy have any reality in his head about what has been happening for 15 years in Ohio and Michigan? Does he think Gm should just take jobs from other communities and mvoe them because Delaware is losing some?
http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE54C4PF20090513?feedType=RSS&f- eedName=domesticNews&rpc=22&sp=true
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The last thing we need is MORE people working for the gov't, doing NOTHING, as we have enough UAW workers who do nothing and collect their paychecks...
One other thing about the railroad union...I believe the contract also mandated a "cabooseman" which further raised the train overhead by the salaries for those people, but the function of the cabooseman was made unnecessary by some kind of technology...the only way to get rid of the caboosemen was to eliminate the caboose...that is why you rarely see a caboose on a train these days, DisneyWorld and shopping malls notwithstanding...
Senator Carper-Delaware...if this does not prove beyond any reasonable doubt of the stupidity of our Congress, I don't know what will...since they will lose 1000 jobs, GM should just move a plant there to give back 1000 jobs...the Senator must have been in the UAW, because he has no idea how a business runs, and our UAW is just as stupid...
Why No More Cabooses?
You had it correct until this last sentence. The highly paid management would actually want some efficiency like the other stores. But the union cart workers would fight the loss of jobs. Even though the store down the street moved the carts with only 2 workers, the union would want 10 to continue doing it. They would be proud of the fact that their company employed more workers at a living wage.
You may be right. But, I don't think the Cart unloaders would be required to return the carts to the parking stations. That would be another persons job. Then another one to get those carts back to the front door. And yet another to take them into the store.
And let's not forget that on particularly hot sunny days, or rainy days, other workers may be required to carry umbrellas.
"Welcome to Walmart, you may notice a slight 300% increase in item cost due to the extra care you are receiving, whether you desire it or not. We know what you want, better than you do". :shades:
Kip
I see your point. I was thinking from another point of view. I was thinking that the management would continue with 10 layers of managers while the other companies would organize the work in the plant, I mean parking lot, with a single manager who is one pay level above the highest paid worker in the parking lot. Mine was a criticism of the many managers using their very valuable MBA degrees to tell people how things should be done--all 10 of them.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Rocky is in TX if we recall correctly being beaten up on by his exwife.
Do you do divorce work? It sounds like his is among the nastiest--it's even worse than the scripted, farcical Judge Mabelline (or whatever her look-alike replacement is named) on Divorce Court.
>and further on topic
Has anyone found humor in the announcement yesterday that the Union folk are upset that GM might have to manufacture cars in China for import into the US because of their high wages and damage done to the company?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/5323274/GM-plans-to-export-cars-from-China-to- -the-US.html
The move will be fiercely challenged by GM's unions. "GM should not be taking taxpayer's money simply to finance the outsourcing of jobs to other countries," said Alan Reuther, a lobbyist for the United Auto Workers union. He added that the number of extra cars that GM plans to import will be equal to the output of four US assembly plants, "the same number that GM plans to close". --Alan Ruether
I find humor in his indignation.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I have thought about doing divorce, but as of yet I don't...I am fairly familiar with it, though...they are always classified as the WHINIEST clients, even worse than those going to jail for criminal acts..."He didn't bring the kids home by 6:00 pm, like our divorce mandates, they just waltzed in here at 6:03 pm like nothing was wrong"...what amazes me is what people will do to get away from somebody, and how often parents and grandparents will gladly pay good $$$ to assist in divorce...they may let their kid rot in jail for crime, but to get away from that rotten wife/husband???...open the wallets and let it flow...so why don't I do it???...sometimes even good money ain't enough to deal with the clients and their 17 phone calls a day and other aggravation...
I agree. So in our scenario the WalMart environment that mirrors GM would have 10 cart workers at high expense to retrieve carts, and many layers of gold plated management to further add to the cost.
The comparable company down the block that was non-union would have 2 cart workers and one manager as you suggested.
Both sets of problems (management AND the union) contributed to the demise of the D2.
That would be the all time dumbest move by any business and they would lose even the staunchest GM supporters.
I was browsing through Bass Pro shops here in Orlando last weekend and decided to look at the tags to see where things were made. 90% was made in China, with the rest between Korea, Japan, Vietnam, and even Pakistan. I found a grand total of one item made in the USA.
Ford shareholders also approved the company's funding plan for a healthcare trust for United Auto Workers union retirees... "
Yahoo
But sadly greed begot more greed and hence, failure. :sick:
Regards,
OW
NOBODY could afford to go fishing either. With $30 per hour UAW workers making lures the prices would be out of sight. These are all thing we lost decades ago to cheaper labor. It just took longer to catch up to your Buick and GM.
If the UAW had offered to cut everyone back to $15 per hour and dump the retiree health care plan back in 2005, GM would probably be profitable and this thread never would exist.
Retiree health care? Health care in this country is totally out of whack, but these retirees would've ended up on Medicare costing the taxpayers that much more money! Well, I can be vicious and say those who can't afford their own private health care should just let nature run its course and kill them off when they get sick, but I'm not that sociopathic.
Perhaps this might make you smile a little, both being possible Buicks soon.
Regards,
OW
Well do you want to keep unskilled jobs in this country or don't you? I cannot affor a yacht either. I doubt any of the guys building yachts can afford them. Where does it say in the Constitution you have to be able to have everything? A car is a luxury in most of the world. If you are in an unskilled job riding the bus and want more, get an education and rise above the level of unskilled. The UAW and its ilk have warped the minds of unskilled workers. They made them believe they were worth more than they actually are.
The UAW is forcing those jobs over seas as sure as I am typing this. There are millions of out of work people in this country that would jump at the chance to build your Buicks and Caddies for $15 per hour. And that is high pay for what they would be doing. I dare say it takes less training than a bricklayer or a concrete finisher. And those jobs are lucky to make $15 per hour in California during the housing boom. Today it is more like $12 per hour with NO benefits.
And an out of work felon is still a felon that should be shot when caught in the act of committing a felony. And cities like Philadelphia were over run with Felons when the unemployment rate was at its lowest ever in the last decade. We have already debunked the idea that crime goes up with unemployment.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
gagrice: "Well do you want to keep unskilled jobs in this country or don't you? I cannot affor a yacht either. I doubt any of the guys building yachts can afford them. Where does it say in the Constitution you have to be able to have everything?"...that is the other problem...people often work making something that they may not be able to afford...yachts, STS-V, high-end shotguns, etc...there is no law that says that you have to afford everything...the better law is that you are paid what you are worth, and, as the evidence shows, the UAW are not worth it...yes, I know Henry Ford paid his people so they could afford his product, but that does not mean they could afford a Packard or Duesenberg, but they could afford a base Ford...it is not that the pay is too low, it is that the car they WANT costs too much...
UAW people are starting to see reality and it hurts, but they have been spoiled children for so many generations, it is in their DNA, they really believe that someone sweeping floors is worth $35/hour as though money grows on trees...those trees are rotting away, faster than anyone thought...
I wonder what the feeling is out there in the nation...folks who never knew that UAW made our cars or that they were paid like no other unskilled labor, suddenly know what is going on, and the curtain has been pulled back from the Wizard...now, how many people who would have bought Big 3 will avoid them after understanding the shenanigans going on with overpaid floorsweepers???...if sales fall further, you might see the UAW down to 2 locals and 17 members...wouldn't THAT be heaven???
That is the essence of the problem. In a "normal" free market, the auto companies would pay what the market would bear, and they would still be making lots of cars here. The UAW in their greed has limited the natural ability of the job market to adjust to prevailing conditions of the workforce. The salaries and benefits are artificially inflated and the ability of the D3 to adapt is limited. The only sensible choice is for them to outsource more work to non-UAW locations.
The irony is that the non-UAW car companies (foreign nameplates) are happily building plants in this country and making good products right. It's just the American makes that can't do that competitively. Thanks UAW for helping the American economy!
If all that stuff was made here at union pay, nobody could afford it, except maybe UAW workers. Then the plants would close and workers out of work.
Then the companies would open plants in other countries, so they could make a profit.
Sound familiar?
Kip
"Panasonic expects that the economic environment in fiscal 2010 will be more severe than the past fiscal year, as the global recession and shrinking demand triggered by the financial crisis coincide with changes in market structure, including the expansion of emerging markets and a shift to lower-priced products," it said in a statement.
Regards,
OW
Right. But you forgot to add: everything will cost at least 5 times as much.
LOL, I gotta start doing the same. :P :P
See, tlong, you should try telling that in front of Rocky. He's still stuck in his dream that UAW built cars are superior. :P
Then the companies would open plants in other countries, so they could make a profit.
Sound familiar?
Yeah, I wholeheartedly tried to explain the same thing months ago. Glad to see someone else having the same thoughts as mine.
When started in 50s, UAW outrageus pay was only possible because of monopolistic position of D3. It was exactly the unfairness and inequality of their position vs. rest of the country (ability to pass any excess cost on the consumer) that allowed them to collect those paychecks. When the monopoly was broken by imports, it had to change. But it didn't and once mighty companies are now shadows of themselves.
I say it laud and clear: I don't give a dime for welfare of those 1-2 milion people affected by this crisis. Remaining 250+ milion Americans are much more important to me - and they benefit far more from better product manufactured more efficiently and more sold at lower price rather than overpriced piece of garbage - even if that product is to be build in Mexico, Brasil, Japan, Korea, Germany, or even China rather than here. Same pertains to any other product. Truth is simple and it hurts: either make it better, cheaper than others or move over and make room for those who can. No society ever prospered from supporting mediocrity.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
In 1964 I wanted a new jeep type vehicle. The only one I could afford working at the phone company was a Toyota Land Cruiser. The Jeep was about $3500 and I paid $2400 for the new LC. So even back then the UAW was making the Domestics unaffordable for the average working man. That would be me at the phone company. Someone posted wages for UAW workers at that time. They were about 50% higher than mine. That corresponds to the difference in vehicle prices.
So this has been a slow bleeding process the UAW has done to the Domestics. I personally could care less about the UAW workers. They did this with full knowledge that they were WAY OVERPAID for their unskilled positions.
The UAW had the chance in 1998 to do the right thing and offer to take a cut in pay to keep jobs in the USA. They instead opted to strike costing GM $20 Billion. They did the same thing in 2005, 2007 & 2008. The sooner the UAW is decimated the better off the USA will be.
More than likely my next vehicle will be built in Germany. As they are the only country with the foresight to offer diesel vehicles to the USA.
What the hell was in that Jeep to make it so expensive? The only reference points I have from my family around that rough timeframe was a 1963 Mercury Monterrey 4-door hardtop that my Granddad bought new for about $3500, and a new 1966 Pontiac Catalina convertible that my Mom bought for around $3200. Compared to that, $3500 for a jeep just sounds extravagant...unless it was a well-equipped 4wd Wagoneer or something.
What union people need to understand is simple...they are now worthless and obsolete...they WERE needed, no, ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY, in the 30s and 40s, but, like buggy-whip makers, they are no longer needed and they are a hindrance to corporate profitability...I am amused at the absurdity of unionizing gov't employees...why the union, are they going to work for some OTHER gov't???
While management has its faults (Aztec, Roadmaster, Gremlin, Pacer) the UAW set world records for poor workmanship, lousy work attitude, and lowest levels of intelligence exhibited by adult workers (by striking the only GM plants making money...how rocky calls them intelligent is beyond me)...what turned Americans away was poor workmanship...when they believe that the imports are better, they buy imports...UAW did nothing to try and change that attitude, but they did everything in their power to make sure that workmanship was substandard...after all, they were getting back at "the man"...did I mention their sheer ignorance and stupidity???...that getting back at "the man" meant their jobs disappeared into thin air, but they strike because THEY are the ignorant sheeple..
Now, if they're stupid enough to be buying 1/2 million $ houses, Escalades, boats, Ski-Doos, plasma televisions, and vacationing in the Bahamas, then they've got some fierocious money-management issues. I make way more than a UAW worker and I don't have or want any of those things. Outside of my cars, I live rather modestly. Heck, I can really be a super-miser if it weren't for my girlfriend!
OK, let's assume labor unions are obsolete. What's to keep companies from reverting back to 1890s sweat shop conditions, company stores, physical abuse, a wanton disregard for safety and virtually slavery of the workforce? Can we trust them to treat their employees well? Is the government going to protect them? I wouldn't count on it! They didn't do a good job protecting wealthy investors from the likes of Bernie Madoff. Who's going to look out for a bunch of lower middle-class and working class schlubs?
Well, if GM start importing cars exclusively from China or goes out of business altogether, I guess I will be too - a Mercedes S-Class or E-Class. I could buy a Ford product, but if find them as palatable as cold Brussels sprouts.
I cannot for the life of me see myself in any Asian luxury car. I'm not paying a premium for what is essentially a Buick Park Avenue with a psychotic price tag. I better get used to the fierocious maintenance and repair bills that come with those Teutonic tanks.
I work in the software industry. No software company I know of has a union. Yet the working conditions are better than most industries, and I do not see any "sweat shop conditions" developing - even the jobs outsourced to India have a working environment which is comparable to US (if you visit the campus of an Infosys or Wipro in India, it is at par with any campus in Silicon valley).
So, my point is - Motivated employees deliver value to the company (which then gets monetized in the form of higher revenues and profits). Unfortunately there will be industries where the only differentiation is cost, and "sweat shop" conditions may develop - but that is a part of the Anglo Saxon model of capitalism. For every 100 underpaid shoe assemblers in a Vietnamese factory of Nike, there is one Nike employee in the US vacationing in St. Moritz.
To sum it up - The company management needs to maximize the value creation by its employees. In most cases, it will depend on their motivation - which depends on working conditions. So unless the management is blind to this (and therefore deserves to fail), it is not going to short change the employee.....
Guess what? Even in the bad old days of the 1890s, the average American worker enjoyed the world's highest blue collar standard of living. Those sweat shops were ugly places, but most of the people who worked in them were recently-arrived immigrants who left for better jobs as soon as they learned some English & acquired marketable skills.
Working 14-hour days in a lower Manhattan sweat shop beats hell out of a short, bloody career as cannon fodder in the Czar's army.
Here's a basic economic fact: a strong & expanding economy does much, much more for a worker's standard of living than membership in a union.
Yes, I wish my mother and step father had what your dad had also. Like Rocky you were raised UPPER MIDDLE CLASS. There were a lot of US that were not. We fought to get ahead. Saving as much as possible for that day we could enjoy it. Now the stinking government wants to give it all away to a bunch of overpaid UNSKILLED auto assemblers. We just have different views of the past and present based on our childhood memories. Vacation for us was visiting grandma in Oregon or CA. We NEVER took a vacation anywhere we did not stay with relatives. Even if all of us had to sleep in the car on long trips. That was two adults and 5 kids. I have NO pity on these people that did not think beyond next payday. 10,000 UAW workers filing for Bankruptcy when they lost their Overtime. Give me a break. Could not make it on $87k per year, so sad I just want to PUKE.
I have no problem with that as long as you are not BK your company and asking for tax dollars to maintain that level of income. That is what the UAW workers are pleading for. They could care less about GM or Chysler. It is their own greed that drives them. I would bet you are not interested in sending the UAW a check to help them out.
That surprises me. After all, it was the Germans - not the Japanese or Koreans - who wiped the floor with your beloved Cadillac & made it into an object of ridicule for luxury car buyers. The head of the Toyota team that designed the first Lexus LS made it clear that their target was the S-class Mercedes. They didn't consider the Caddies of the time (late 80s) to be worthy rivals.
Drive through the parking lot of any exclusive country club in the greater NY metro area & you'll see 6 or 8 German cars for every Lexus or Infiniti.
I'm a little surprised that you aren't more anti-German.