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Veracruz is mentioned in the article.
Hyundai still has a lot to learn.
DrFill
Veracruz is mentioned in the article. "
Since when do YOU place any value in Motortrend fill?
Craig
I've followed this forum for what 3 or 4 days now and came to the conclusion that the Honyota fans are really scared to death that Hyundai, is going to exceed their beloved brands in all area's A typical buyer of imports usually on average doesn't have any particular loyalty to one brand. What I mean is friends of mine who are your typical Japanese, import buyers will jump from Toyota to Honda. Sure Nissan, occasionally gets a try if the money is right but now that the Korean's are building superior vehicles at a much lower cost I hear the "cry foul" crowd coming out of the wood work. It's exciting to read that's for sure.
I will add that yes IMHO the Hyundai Genesis, is a true luxury car and yes it's unbelievable at how inexpensive it is. When it debuts I a GM, fan will vote for it as car of the year because it has all the gadgets, power, luxury, fit and finish to be an elite automobile. The Genesis, is like what Sega, was to Nintendo. "Genesis"(Hyundai) does what Nintendo, (Toyota/Lexus, Honda/Acura, Nissan/Infiniti) can't do !!!!!!!
-Rocky
You take the good with the bad.
Already beaten by it's real competition.
DrFill
You hit the nail on the head. We all "believe" what we want to believe. And frankly whether you give my opinion any weight is irrelevant. I'm not the one that will determine the success of any automotive journey. I'm indicative of a an automotive consumer with my opinions and biases. The "mob", not me will determine how this goes. When I'm in the market for a luxury vehicle I will go to the luxury makers and spend *more* than you, but get *more* than you. It's not about the bottom line or else the Veracruz won't sell one unit because there are cheaper alternatives available.
They obviously don't know anything about making SUVs. :confuse:
DrFill
OK......So then the Veracruz AND CX-9 beat the RX350 then right? Glad we agree on something.
Craig
Recently MT is fighting to retain subscribers so they created many different weird comparisons in order to generate interest. The first example is Veracruz vs. RX350 and the second is the G37 win over the 335i without claiming a single advantage except in price. MT is desperate and desperate people do desperate things.
By the way, if anyone find another RX350 vs Veracruz comparison please share it.
-> No, it is not. It, at best, is car with some features found in luxury cars. This doesn't make itself into a luxury car. It will never, period! :sick:
Veracruz is mentioned in the article.
Hyundai still has a lot to learn.
Wow you are really something. Did you not learn anything from before? A basher of M/T, just because the Veracruz overtook the RX in its recent comparison...but, when the Veracruz didn't come in first place, you have been posting it over and over, and over and over. FWIW, the CX-9, Enclave, Veracruz, and others are fanstastic CUVs (go try them out!!) - any of them deserved to win. Man I wouldn't want to even think what would have happened if the Highlander won.
I get the feeling if Hyundai had won something, we get ridiculous claim Hyundai had paid off others to get it, or it was a mistake...but when Hyundai didn't get first place, man everyone wouldn't hear the end of it.
Again I ask, double standards? Very much so!!
Not a basher, but rather questioning the veracity of the magazine, a conversation that didn't start with this "comparison".
"So to conclude, if Hyundai wins something"
No if Hyundai wins something that doesn't feel, smell or taste right, I might conclude some payola.
So what's up with the bottom-feeding?
http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/do/vdp/articleId=116618/pageNumber=4
Looks a lot like lipstick on a pig.
But hey, the people seem to like it, so moziltov!
(It will never sell like a Rav4, but that's not the point)
Just don't compare it to anything in it's class, that's all.
Oh, oh! Wait a minute! The Word has cometh down from above once again. What say ye, oh mighty Motor Trend?
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedan/112_0603_fullsize_sedan_comparison/rat- - ings_winner.html
Shoot! I was really hoping that wouldn't happen.
Again.... :sick:
DrFill
Long story short, the Santa Fe is a fantastic CUV - don't need any reviews or ranking to prove that, unless you are just bitter about another great product from Hyundai.
Certainly if I was in the market for a daily driver CUV, this would be on the short list. I would highly recommend the Santa Fe for anyone shopping for this type of vehicle now.
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/14151/2007-hyundai-entourage-limited.htm- - l
This latest bottom-feeding escapade was rather impressive. Especailly with two rather ancient designs winning handily, and awaiting redesigns themselves. :surprise:
Quite a heritage of automotive excellence your building.
If Toyota/Lexus had that much bottom-feeding, they'd be a laughing stock!
Not to impun Hyundai.
In any way.
No.
DrFill
ZERO.
Not saying the particular in question Hyundai didn't do well. All three CUVs are fantastic in their own right.
Myself, I am a firm believer in personal experience. I take little to no weight to any of the reviews/comparison tests. This is why I can tell you M/T did a good job on its Veracruz/RX comparion, b/c I share the same experience. You and others might not, after driving it in another life time, fine, but at least take the time to do so, instead of bashing the brand and allege Hyundai paid off M/T, for example, without merits or qualifications.
And my #2: Consideration comes from thought. Or better yet, forethought.
I see people thinking with their wallets, not with minds.
All I do is hold up the mirror. You see what you want to see.
People here are more than ready to marginalize the RX. That's fine.
But that door opens both ways.
Hyundai needs to worry about other things than Lexus.
When they get their house in order, and get their priorities straight, I'll salute them, and wish them well.
This marketing initiative, more like a microwave marketing initiative, insults my intelligence.
And that's pretty hard to do! :P
DrFill
Also, I see you saying that when a comparo tries to level the playing field by comparing cars of nearly equal prices, that isn't "fair." Is that right?
Sorry to ask so many questions, but sometimes it's just hard to believe what I see with my own eyes, so I just want to be sure.
Let's ignore every other comparison Hyundai has every participated in, and has been summarily defeated in. Let's ignore every last place out there. Sales problems. Everything. And start fresh.
Now let's say MT did the test fairly, and didn't ignore every inherent Lexus advantage. Let's say it's a better value than a RX. Fine.
We'll even go so far as to say the RX is inferior to the CX-9 and Veracruz (Two 7-seat SUVs)
Let's start Planet Earth with the Veracruz vs the rest of the SUVs out there.
What am I supposed to think when the CX-9 surpasses the Veracruz, and is the SUV of the Year. The same magazine made it seem like the Veracruz isn't worth getting, after what, 4 months? :surprise:
When Hyundai needs to leave it's class, and use it's price to be worth buying. And when someone else offers something similar, the Veracruz can't stand up to it.
The RX will be redesigned next year, and will put another layer of luxury, another row of seats, and more towing and power ahead of the Veracruz.
Now what happens to the Veracruz for the next 4-5 years? It just came out, and it's almost obsolete now? :confuse:
What will happen to it's 1500 monthly sales this time next year?
CX-9 outsells it 2-1 now. New RX, which you target in your marketing. New HL this year. New Pilot next year.
I don't see a plan.
No thought. Or forethought.
Consideration. A product strtegy is nowhere to be seen. :confuse:
If the Veracruz will have this much trouble holding it's ground. What will a more expensive Hyundai do?
The 300C is do for a redesign in 2009. Then what?
A G37 or 3-series is already faster, so what do I need a V8 for? Except to burn gas.
Oh, yeah.
Nobody wants to burn gas at these prices! :mad:
This obsession with Lexus will kill Hyundai, like it has done to Nissan.
You can't thumb your nose at history. Nissan. VW, they've already stumbled down this road. This is an extremely dark road. And I don't see any light coming from Hyundai, based on how it handles this market. :surprise:
They just do things, and don't think them through first.
DrFill
Azera and LS460 are comparable.
Sonata and GS350 are comparable.
Elantra and IS250 are comparable.
Tiburon and SC430 are comparable.
Do you now see my logic here?
As for MT's other outrageous comparo I'll point to the G37 win over 335i with any advantage except in price. It's undeniable that MT has been a little off lately.
Veracruz and RX350 are much closer to one another than any of the other pairings you mentioned. For instance, the Elantra is a compact, 138 hp I4 car that starts at $14,000. What does a IS250 start at, and what kind of powertrain does it have? You have listed utterly ridiculous comparisons.
Old saying "never say never".
Got it? :confuse:
Exactly. That's how ridiculous does MT's Veracruz vs. RX350 sounds like.
GS - Toyota Avalon
Some changes but essentially the same cars.
How about because the two cars are in a totally different league and aiming at totally different buying public. Again, can you differentiate between the near-luxury and luxury segments? Have you driven a Lexus before? Have you been to a Lexus dealer before? Have you been to a Lexus service center before? If the answer to above questions are "no" then sir you are not in a place to make "near-luxury vs luxury" comments.
The Genesis, is superior. It offer's 90 plus percent of the luxury from Mercedes/Lexus, and it drives like a BMW 5 series. That is superior in my book.
Also, it's quite funny of you stating that the Genesis is a "true" luxury car without even seeing and driving it in person. This shows how much credibility you have with post like this. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the verdict is still out for Genesis and personally I think it has what it takes to be a luxury sedan. Thus I am voicing my opinion hard on not making it a Hyundai, it probably deserves better.
I've seen the concept and Hyundai assured us what you see now is pretty much what you'll get in production. Ihave no reason to doubt them as they have no dud record to speak of.
You post is just getting crazier and crazier, have you personally see Genesis? If you have then you are one heck of a lucky guy. If not then how can you make comments like "has all the gadgets, power, luxury, fit and finish to be an elite automobile"?
I don't have to see it in person to know what the customer is getting. They reversed engineered BMW's 5 series suspension and put it on their car. It's not hard to copy when the other guy is doing all the homework.
By the way, you do know that Sega is out of console video game's business right?
Are they totally out ? I thought they still make games for PS and Xbox ?
And Nintendo has just mounted a successful comeback with its Wii.
I don't personally know anyone who owns one though. :P
Not the best analogy IMO. Also, please enlighten me on what has Hyundai done that Honda/Nissan/Toyota can't do.
Build superior luxury automobiles like the Veracruz at rock bottom prices. It's simply amazing !!!! :surprise:
If you are going to say Genesis then please look at the LS400 back in 1990. It was a S-class equivalent sedan at almost half the price ! Toyota even did it one better: They created Lexus at the same time.
Yes Toyota, did a wonderful thing back then but their cars cost as much as Mercedes, now thus they have lost their luster. You are paying more for the badge than forwhat you are getting in the final product. I of course think Lexus, is probably the standard of the world as it carry's so much clout in this country. However the Hyundai Genesis, should end up being the "Standard of the World" of all automobiles as you will not find a better value on such a spectaculiar automobile in the world. It's like buying a Rolex, at Tag Heur price. :shades:
So please, easy with the cool aid because it's not like the Genesis is the first of its kind.
The Genesis, is the first of it's kind. The Lexus LS, was more expensive in 90' than this car is 18+ years later. :P
-Rocky
Have you seen it and ride in it?
it drives like a BMW 5 series
Have you driven it?
Build superior luxury automobiles like the Veracruz at rock bottom prices. It's simply amazing !!!!
Ro...Rock bottom price? You do know that the Veracruz starts at $27K right?
I don't have to see it in person to know what the customer is getting.
Yes you do, Rocky, making comments like this isn't helping the credibility of you post.
They reversed engineered BMW's 5 series suspension and put it on their car.
Really? Source please. Please don't reply with something like: I saw it somewhere before but I can't find it now. You are not getting away with that this time.
It's not hard to copy when the other guy is doing all the homework.
Really? If it's that easy as you've stated then everyone should be able to make a 3-series now. All they have to do is buy one, take it apart and study it right? Geez, do you even know what does it take to engineering a car from the ground up?
The interior look marvelous.
From the spy shots.
It does have all the high-tech gadgetry.
Everybody has now-a-day.
Hyundai certainly doesn't have that problem.
I think you have that backward. Hyundai is working like mad to improve their reputation. Indeed, they've made great strides in quality and reliability since MY 2000. One slip up could be disastrous, and cause customers to lose the customer's confidence Hyundai worked so hard and paid so dearly for.
Lexus, on the other hand, can coast. If they make a mistake or 2, (and they have made some engineering and quality blunders of late), the average customer will believe it's a fluke.
Hyundai is seriously not challenging a benchmark like the 550 no matter how many times you click your heels together and twitch your nose.
You are better off saying I have had no experience with the Veracruz so I am not exactly sure how it compares to the RX, than something blatant as this is ludicrous, there is absolutely no way whatsoever a Hyundai would beat a Lexus. How many thought the US domestics would lose the domination in the market, how many would have thought Toyota would have tons of recalls and reliability slips. Well, hell just froze over.
I agree, there shouldn't be any comparison. The RX350 costs $10K more than the Veracruz, and should blow it away in 20 test categories out of 20. It would be ridiculous if the Veracruz won even 1 or 2 categories against such legendary competition.
I didn't get to read the MT review. The RX350 did win in all categories, right?
"How many thought the US domestics would lose the domination in the market, how many would have thought Toyota would have tons of recalls and reliability slips."
The US started losing the market in 1974, maybe you didn't know it. As far as Toyotas supposed fall from grace, I don't see it and I'll wager the "news" will not have any meaningful effect on sales.
Well these so called kings you talk about are living off of legacy than present merit.
Hyundai is seriously not challenging a benchmark like the 550 no matter how many times you click your heels together and twitch your nose.
If what we know/heard becomes reality onthe production model be prepared to crown new benchmark. I can already hear you now once that happens.
-Rocky
When Hyundai becomes the benchmark by all accounts, I will eat crow. But it has to be by all accounts and not from motor trend. Has to be sales, wards engine awards, consensus from every car magazine and CR. Other than that I'm not biting.
-Rocky
I am not telling you there is a chance the Veracruz could pit against the RX. I am telling you that is the case. MotorTrend proved it - have fun try to come up whatever excuses you want to come up. I've talked to actual Veracruz owners, and a good amount of those were previously RX owners. No one here is knocking the RX nor Lexus, other cars such as the Veracruz, CX-9, Enclave, Outlook, Acadia etc etc just raised the bar.
Hyundai is trying to dethrone Toyota, but they have a problem, they can't sell any cars. I believe their cars are more cheaply made than Toyota's cars, and that is part of the reason they sell for "less" with the "same" equipment.
From the general consensus I've gathered the last couple days I guess there are 3 major opinions about "Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?"
1. Yes.
2. Yes, but it needs a luxury brand and independent dealer network.
3. Heck no.
Feel free to expand the list.
What? It was obvious to me in 1974 they were in trouble.
"MotorTrend proved it - have fun try to come up whatever excuses you want to come up. I've talked to actual Veracruz owners, and a good amount of those were previously RX owners."
You obviously know the 10 people who believe the Veracruz is the same car as the 350 and Hyundai is just as good as car company as Lexus. Along with other posters who believe the Genesis will take on the 5 series and the 3 series has been dethroned.
Motortrend didn't prove anything. I'm not knocking the Veracruz, it is not a luxury automobile and Hyundai is not a luxury vehicle manufacturer. If the Veracruz was all that it would made front-page headlines everywhere.
Maybe you're all correct and I missed the memo. Louiswei set me straight.
We are not talking about classifications. Simple and straight forward, the Veracruz vs. the RX. Ergonomics, build quality, power, braking, comfort, feel, etc etc...
Go drive one and find out for yourself. Of course I have a pretty good idea the results - Veracruz can't be compared to the RX.
Motortrend proved a lot more than just a car comparison. Not only it proved the Veracruz can pit against the RX, it also proved the level of quality from Hyundai vehicles, and a few other indirect indications...
Of course, I am really waiting for the BH RWD coupe, and the other FWD coupe slotting in the current Tib spot.
Build quality, yes, that's the words I was searching for as the biggest difference between near-luxury and luxury. I'll quote the same MT article we've been discussing lately:
Both have high-quality, supportive seating, although we missed having separate armrests in the Hyundai. Premium Japanese brands are known for using first-rate materials, boasting superior fit and finish. Korean brands have previously been known for none of the above. This pair demonstrates how narrow that gap has become. The Lexus is still the king here, using great surfaces everywhere and bolting them together flawlessly. The Hyundai uses components of nearly equal quality, assembled almost as well. The leather and vinyl on the seats didn't quite color-match, the silver finish on the center stack doesn't appear all that sturdy, and there were a few misaligned bits of trim. It's in areas such as these where you can spot the difference in cost, although it's not as great as the dollar spread might indicate.
Like I said, one is near-luxury and another is luxury, apples to oranges (okay, maybe pineapples :P ). However, likewise, no one will compare a Corvette Z06 to a Ferrari F480 even though the $60K Chevy can probably put the $200K exotic in shame in terms of track performance and pure acceleration.