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Comments
Start there and price out the options and packages.
By the way, I am sure you know the price in 2003 does not equal the price today - something called inflation
I never said they were the same, checks again, nope never said that. What makes the Lexus experience so great, the fact they are charging you a premium price for Toyota parts and keep a straight face while doing so?
In the meantime enjoy the complaints from Lexus owners and the dealer experiences they received.
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/lexus.html
IMO, the upcoming Genesis and Veracruz are worthy enough to carry a different badge. That's why I think it's in Hyundai's best interest to start a luxury brand instead of selling those as a Hyundai. Follow what Toyota did with Lexus, don't bet against success.
I totally admire about Hyundai's products but I am having problem with its VW-like approach.
As for the dealership, we have had the RX for almost 2 years now and have been to the dealer a handful of times, all for scheduled service. So to me, the dealership experience is overrated, yes, its nice to be able to have a cappuccino and a bagel and check my email on the free WiFi they provide. But the somewhat lowerscale VW dealer where I take my Passat to get serviced is not exactly torture. How much time do you spend in the dealership? If you are really there so often to enjoy it, perhaps your ownership experience is not the typical Lexus one.
I don't know you and its quite possible that you actually do research before you buy and still end up at Lexus, that's how I got there. But most of what you are writing makes you sound like a snob who looks at the name plate and the inside of the showroom and sees nothing else.
I'll leave you with this. No one thought that Toyota could pull off a luxury division 20 years ago. Lexus had a long uphill battle before it was considered in the same breath as Mercedes, to many it still is not in the same league. Hyundai can take a page from the Lexus playbook and make high quality luxury cars and sell them for significantly less than Lexus does. Once they get a foothold selling to people who can't quite afford a Lexus right now as those buyers move up the corporate ladder and Hyundai establishes itself, they can raise their prices and begin to compete on an equal footing.
Only time will tell.
To be honest, one key thing that drove us away from purchasing a Veracruz recently was the minimal price point required just to get leather seats. You can't get factory leather seats as an option on the base trim. Either you must buy a Limited, or else you must buy the SE with a $3350 option package.
Well I disagree. I am a member of the car buying public. The title of this forum is: Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai? I am offering up my opinion.
I also know a number of Lexus owners who would reflect similiar thoughts. Does that mean one Lexus owner won't go to Hyundai, or that a potential Veracruz buyer will pass on the opportunity?
"No one thought that Toyota could pull off a luxury division 20 years ago. Lexus had a long uphill battle before it was considered in the same breath as Mercedes, to many it still is not in the same league"
20 years ago there was not Lexus, Mercedes, BMW, Infiniti, Acura, Subaru, GM, Ford all offering vehicles in this space. IMO I believe Hyundai is up against the buy American crowd and the top-tier luxury brands. Pontiac has proved with Aztec, though, build it and they will come.
I've been to a few Lexus dealerships, and I must admit they're impressive. But, our brand new multi-brand dealership, including Hyundai, is as impressive. The service waiting area looks like a high end hotel, with rock sculptures, waterfalls, leather chairs and sofas with free Wi-Fi, breakfast, gourmet coffee, doughnuts, and restrooms that put many hotels to shame (marble countertops, ceramic tile floors, etc.). Free every 15-minute shuttles to work or home, OR a free loaner while you're waiting for your car to be serviced. The list goes on and on, and it's truly an impressive place. The entire multi-complex store includes Toyota, Scion, Mazda, Kia, Hyundai, Mitsubishi, Chrysler, and VW (O'Brien Auto Park of Urbana (IL)). Oh, and the service, it's fast and excellent, with extremely polite Service Advisors, Service Managers, etc.
Certainly, no complaints here for either my Hyundai or Toyota.
What record? This topic is about Hyundai and people keep chiming in with Lexus. We are here to set the record straight on the new and improved Hyundai, which is mostly on topic since this is a thread about...um Hyundai.
kthx
Lexus has been doing this for years. Hyundai gives free loaner cars? It's not corporate policy, it's a local dealership policy, right?
You may have a modern dealership, but the dealership network in general is not what is available in your town.
This topic is NOT about the new and improved Hyundai. Instead it's about if Hyundai can compete in the luxury segment. Since Lexus is the number 1 selling luxury brand in the US, it is fair to bring up for comparison purpose.
If Hyundai doesn't want to be compare with Lexus then it shouldn't enter the market. They better beef up if they want to play with the big boys.
To get back on the topic:
Yes, there is room in the luxury market for Hyundai but not with the Hyundai badge. Simple.
I agree with what you've said by the way.
To my knowledge, most Hyundai dealers do. I don't know if they all provide such service but at least the ones according to the our firm's research, and those do provide courtesy loaners to its customers.
I can personally attest to the nearest Hyundai dealer in my area. My neighbor went in for a regular interval service, and when he came back about 30 minutes later, I thought he had bought a new car. Of course then he told me it was a loaner.
BTW, they give out free T-shirts and DUH stickers so take that LEXUS! :shades: for those a little sensitive....That was a joke.
Craig
Well Mercedes, Acura, Lincoln and Cadillac were around in 1987. Toyota had the Cressida too. Nissan had the loaded up Maxima back then too.
"Pontiac has proved with Aztec, though, build it and they will come."'
What people came to buy the Aztec?
That great, I'm glad you get a loaner. One differentiation though you can drive into any Lexus dealer and if you leave your car, they will give you a loaner.
Hyundai vs Lexus...they have a very long way to go. If Lexus is their target, they have to step over Acura, BMW, and Infiniti along the way.
As pointed out by Motor Trend they are beefed up per Veracruz vs. RX330 (Harrier) article. But as pointed out by you and your friend they are still a Hyundai. The fact that this truck can compete with the Harrier is a testament to its quality, which you fail to see. I would love to continue but your not grasping the concept of this thread.
So to answer the question:
Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?
Yes, yes there is, not for you starch Lexus owners, but for everyone else. It is happening and now is the time to deal with it. If Lexus can be topped by Buick of all companies then why not.
Of course this will all be glanced over and only a selected sentence would be acknowledged. Anyway that's all i'm going to add to this, I need to get ready for school...Broaden my horizons and all that.
It's really easy to say vehicle A competes with vehicle B and have it be a kind of truth. In some aspects a Honda S2000 competes with a Ferrari and would win on a lot of counts. But those who can afford the Ferrari and want the Ferrari and understand why it may be a different ownership experience than an S2000, will get the Ferrari. Those who can't afford the Ferrari will believe they got 90% of the car at a zillionth of the price and they may be right.
If you excuse me, I have to get back to the real world where people do as they do, not as we think they do.
A Lexus is called Lexus outside America. Apparently someone needs to get out more...
Pseudo luxury brand? I'll reserve that title to the such like Volvo, Saab and Acura.
It's Veracruz vs. RX350, it'll be great if you can get the fact straight before commenting on it. Do you know what's the difference between an RX350 and RX330?
Me not grasping the concept of this thread? The whole frigging concept of this thread is to discuss if Hyundai can compete in the luxury market. What's wrong to compare it with the benchmark of luxury (USDM)?
Yes, yes there is, not for you starch Lexus owners, but for everyone else.
Buddy, I've got new for you, you are living in your own imaginary world. People who go out buy Lexus, BMW, MB and Audi are the luxury market. Hyundai needs to win them over if they want to be competitive in the luxury market. Who's "everyone else" by the way?
If Lexus can be topped by Buick of all companies then why not.
Last I checked, Lexus wasn't topped by Buick. Also, there is a major reason why Buick is tied with Lexus in the long-term reliability survey. This is not the right thread but I wouldn't mind to give you an education on that topic.
So, pretty much all your sentences have been acknowledged and yes school is good for you.
No one is going to change your mind. Just check out the sales figures, they don't lie. If you don't understand why flying first class might be nicer than flying coach, there is no more explaning to do.
I'm not sure what positive direction you are referring to. Hyundai has a very tough road and a lot of competition. Does that mean they will zero units? No. Does that mean they will woo the Caddy/MB/Lexus/Acura/BMW/Infiniti buyer? Who knows? My bet is no.
Hyundai needs a solid luxury automobile and service centers that rival these luxury makers. They don't have either. In addition, I might add these service centers do not share facilities with other makes. I have yet to see a Lexus dealer sharing a service facility, if you know of one, please post a link, so I will believe it.
It's going to be a tough road to get the potential X3 335 buyer looking at a Veracruz.
I don't know how many times in these discussions I've seen that statement, or words to that effect. I have 25 years' sales experience. Sales figures do lie--or at minimum they mislead. There are countless examples, in and out of the automotive world, in which the best seller is not the best product. I won't bore you with these examples. Unless you want me to.
If you would like to get into why sales are irrelevant I would like to be edumacated.
Actually my family owns Lexus. I don't care if Lexus' falls or Hyundai succeeds. I got rid of my stock in both companies. However, there is a perception to overcome about playing with the big boys and where these cars really fit in. There is no doubt people will cross-shop them. People will cross-shop anything, but that's another topic.
When push comes to shove what is the target market and where do they think they will be getting their customers from?
Far be it for someone who's been in sales for 25 years to consider sales irrelevant. But how they are relevant is the question.
I would pretty much be in agreement with that statement. However, we, here in the trenches of this conversation can pretty much voice our opinions, with the probability of "the truth" being low. But when the "people" speak, we all tend to know it.
That's a two way street.
Hyundai can't break 500k annually, no matter how many models they offer. This is their goal (actually 510, down from 550k).
This is two years of fultility. That says something about word-of-mouth, and market image.
If Hyundai was doing it's job, and actually resonating with the market, other than expensive ads, statues would be erected on how Hyundai is the next Toyota! :surprise:
Alas.......... :sick:
Whatever the opposite of buzz is, Hyundai has it.
DrFill
I would hope you would be in agreement with a statement that is almost a direct quote from you, with only the model of car changed.
Opinions such as yours are why I don't think it's best for Hyundai to start up a luxury brand right now. I think they'd be better off elevating their brand image with vehicles like the Veracruz and Genesis, until more people are comfortable paying $30k for a Hyundai. Starting a new brand will take a lot of money, which I think could be put to better use right now on continuing to improve their products (e.g. making sure the Genesis launch is flawless) and on advertising.
Does it really matter? If you had read the rest of my post, you would have noticed most Hyundai dealers (through our firm's research area), if not all, do provide courtesy loaners for their customers.
Why is it that you had to make it a point about Lexus dealers provide loaners? Like dealers of other brands don't?
As you should know, it's not just Lexus, but most other brands and their dealers also provide courtesy loaners.
If Lexus is their target, they have to step over Acura, BMW, and Infiniti along the way.
Personally, I wouldn't rate Lexus over BMW, as long as you were implying Lexus is above BMW.
There are many examples of the product that is not the best seller offering a superior product. That is the point I made, before you twisted it.
The value of what you get for the money is what led to my purchase. I have an attractive (subjective) fully functional SUV with all the bells and whistles (Nav & Bluetooth coming soon), all the safety features and some that other makes don't have all for a great price. This is the market that Hyundai is after but if it can convert some die hards then that's fine, no one really loses here that's the beauty.
I was messing around earlier just to get some blood pumping. I do appreciate the products that Lexus makes. I wouldn't mind owning a new LS460.
Thanks for the pub.
You are very well-read, if you don't mind my saying.
I'm looking for an example of the gum on my shoe making a come back, and actually tasting better than Wrigley's.
I'll get back to you..... :P
DrFill
That is not entirely true.
For the longest time, the RX has been known as the Toyota Harrier. The GX is in essence a Toyota Land Cruiser Prado outside of the North America.
That is true to a point. A lot of dealers provide courtesy loaners, if you bought the car from them. I wasn't aware with Hyundai you can drive into any dealership without an appointment and get a loaner. I was pointing out you can do this with Lexus.
"Personally, I wouldn't rate Lexus over BMW, as long as you were implying Lexus is above BMW."
It depends on what is being ranked. Lexus as a brand has elevated customer service to a fine art. Let me say right off the bat, there are those who are disgruntled with any manufacturer, but that aside, this level of service has been a differentiating factor of Lexus that most manufacturers are now trying to emulate. Lexus as a company has set itself up nationwide for this level of service. This doesn't mean other manufacturers don't provide good service, what it means is as a luxury brand with vehicles costing from about $30K up through the $100K mark, Lexus differentiates itself.
But to your original comment, I would rather drive a BMW.
In my mind, they haven't earned the right to be called a manufacturer of luxury vehicles. With bluetooth, nav and hid available on most cars these days, that is not a differentiator. Leather seats don't make them a luxury manufacturer either.
I am fairly certain you can do that at most Hyundai dealers, if not all. As a matter of fact, when I was with my neighbor at the Hyundai dealer, there was a customer who had a used Hyundai in for service (purchased elsewhere). The service department made a copy of the license, and had the customer sign off a form. Off she went with a Santa Fe loaner.
It depends on what is being ranked. Lexus as a brand has elevated customer service to a fine art. Let me say right off the bat, there are those who are disgruntled with any manufacturer, but that aside, this level of service has been a differentiating factor of Lexus that most manufacturers are now trying to emulate. Lexus as a company has set itself up nationwide for this level of service. This doesn't mean other manufacturers don't provide good service, what it means is as a luxury brand with vehicles costing from about $30K up through the $100K mark, Lexus differentiates itself.
But to your original comment, I would rather drive a BMW.
Well said. For me too on the last comment: BMW > Lexus
Ahh, but then it gets back to what "the people" think, not the automotive journalists.
You get seriously diminishing returns for the extra cash you pay. The difference cash wise in the RX350 and the Veracruz is enough to buy a good used car. Equipment wise, there is little difference in things that really matter. Oh yea, I forgot about that valuable Lexus badge. I'm sure it matters to certain types of owners.
The statement is based on your value system, your point of view. If that was really "the truth" for the masses Lexus wouldn't sell one RX350. In fact, if this was a universal truth, Mercedes, BMW, Acura, Infiniti, Caddy, Lincoln wouldn't be able to sell a car.
There must be another value system people use to determine if the premium is worth it. For one, car A and dealer network Ais just that much better over car B and dealer network B, and just might be worth the $10K.
So as long as we agree there is diminishing returns, why buy the Veracruz when one can get a used Aztec? There are some seriously diminishing returns associated with purchasing a new Veracruz vs the Aztec. Oh wait, I forgot, dimishing returns do not apply to Hyundai. Only to "real" premium brands. :confuse
Yes, and your statements are based on your value system.
I never claimed it was a "universal truth". It's just sound logic. If you're not careful, the last 5% of largely useless features can cost 25% more. If you have no respect for value, that probably doesn't matter to you. You're correct that I have never bought a Mercedes, BMW, Acura, Infiniti, Caddy, or Lincoln. I dont have any desire to own an over-priced car that will fall apart before I get my money's worth from it. I would rather invest my discretionary income than to tie it up on depreciating items like cars.
You're wrong about the used Aztec. It isn't nearly as reliable as a new Hyundai, and doesn't have a 100K mile warranty.
There's no reasoning with badge worshippers. If the new Hyundai's were the world's most luxurious cars, and totally bullet proof, they would still be offended and lash out if someone compared them to their favorite badge. All cars are just steel, rubber, and glass. They are not your kinfolks. Get over it.
I'm glad we agree this represents our viewpoints, but I believe I can speak for a number of RX350 owners as Lexus has sold a few of them. However, in my opinion, one who is concerned about diminishing returns ought not purchase a new vehicle period.
"There's no reasoning with badge worshippers"
Including Hyundai badge worshippers, who fail to see why people might elect to purchase "the same or less"(sic) vehicle for $10K more.
I think this is an excellent point. No one has exclusivity on quality, design and performance. Good cars can be made by anyone regardless of badge. Hyundai is now making fantastic products and while not a threat to the big boys in terms of overall market share today......I believe their market share will grow steadily in the coming years.
At 40 years old I recall well how we used to make fun of the Toyotas and Hondas when they were first introduced. No one laughs now. History repeats itself and for those who believe Hyundai isn't here to stay and committed to competing......Your not learning from history. The Billion dollar factory in Alabama is only one piece of evidence.
Craig
DrFill
The BH will debut outside of S. Korea at the 2008 NAIAS in January.
Well in Europe they use Mercedes as taxi cabs.