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Comments
So it's not the badge, but the company behind it?
I feel you on that.
DrFill
I think it's a real beauty. Knowing that I wouldn't have to pay a year's salary for it makes it even more beautiful. Knowing that it won't fall apart like MB, Audi, and BMW make it even more attractive.
That can certainly be true... or not. The car industry is neither in a vacuum nor a snapshot in time. It's dynamic, ever-changing. If you get stuck on badges, you can miss out on tomorrow's cars at yesterday's prices. The Azera has excellent engineering. Don't drink that skunky water.
Removing stickers, labels, decals, glue, sap...
As I said, I was referring to a 'loaded' TL. (In the car business 'loaded' means 'equipped with most or all available options'!!) My Magnum RT has every available option except sunroof, but I still consider it 'loaded"!)
I didn't say that I bought the TL, but that I test drove it, and that I liked the Azera better - so I bought it!! The fact that the Azera was less expensive was way down on my list of reasons to buy! (A major reason for me not buying the TL Type S was the narrow tall bolstered seats which are a real pain in the [non-permissible content removed]!!)
Of course I would pay less than list price, but list price comparisons are easiest. (FYI I paid $27,000 for our new 2006 Azera Limited/Ultimate in 4/6.)
No GPS navigation available. This is an incusable omission IMO.
No xenon headlights available.
Then there's the matter of the fake wood trim.
Hopefully, the Genesis will come closer.
Rich enough if you carry no debt and spend the money wisely!
"I have not driven the Azera" "Azera is a "lesser car" than the TL"
That's exactly the problem! You don't know! Do yourself, and the rest of us, a favor and test drive an Azera and a TL! Then come back and report your experiences rather than your guesses or bets!!
Do you mean engineering like the TL's SOHC 2-step VTEC valve timing rather than the Azera's DOHC Continuously Variable valve timing, or the TL's 8 speakers rather than the Azera's 10 speakers, or the 3.2L 258hp 233# TL V6 rather than the 3.8L 263hp 255# Azera V6, or the TL's 97.9' EPA PV rather than the Azera's 106.9', or the TL's 12.5' trunk rather than the Azera's 16.6'???? Just which of these engineering marvels would entice you to buy the TL for thousands of dollars more????
No xenon headlights available.
Then there's the matter of the fake wood trim.
Has anyone done a survey on how many owners get their money's worth out of a Nav system? I think it's a toy status symbol, for the most part. I know several people that own them, and only 1 technogeek uses it... although he seldom leaves town.
I don't like fake wood either. If you look around, it's on almost every upscale car on the road.
That sounds like a Hyundai tag line from the recent TAI ads. You sure you don't work for Hyundai now?
Heck that can be said about any amount.
"That's exactly the problem! You don't know! Do yourself, and the rest of us, a favor and test drive an Azera and a TL! Then come back and report your experiences rather than your guesses or bets!!"
Does Azera have all the bells and whistles that the RL has? Do you even know the content of the RL? Voice nav, dynamic traffic routing, etc?
BTW I didn't say TL I said TL-S. Since you are referring to the TL, I would trust Hondas engineering over Hyundai. When it comes to my money I can be picky and prejudiced and I don't have to have an open mind.
This is not a slam against Hyundai, but more a vote for Honda, and that is the problem Hyundai is facing. The recent article I read about front-end collision costs on this car, imo, doesn't help much.
They have a ways to go before they get there.
DrFill
They are not the Hyundai of the past, the Excel days, they have been building solid cars for quite awhile now. Even the big H & T had issues in the past and still continue to do so, Honda has transmission issues and Toyota has occasional sludge issues. Not to mention their new ES's have had some issues that people actually gave their cars back to Lexus because of (Club Lexus forums). But their brand is already established so it's not an issue to most buyers.
I personally drive a 2007 Santa Fe Limited and it's a really nice vehicle. The fit in finish is the same as any Honda or Toyota, has a longer warranty w/ roadside, and didn't cost as much to purchase. Obviously i'm not a brand or badge snob and can't see myself spending too much money on a depreciating asset.
Also for the price there is no other SUV in this class that can compare to what I own. The outside appearence is handsome, the interior fit and finish is excellent, it's one of the safest SUVs you could buy (IIHS & NHTSA). I choose to spend my money wisely, and with the current financial situations around the world, this isn't a bad thing actually.
I chose to spend my money wisely also, but it's not in Hyundais' direction, at this moment. We all choose to spend our money wisely, however, some have more and some have less. YMMV.
Makes no difference to me as your not paying my bills.
Can we see some greatness, before we start slaying dragons? :confuse:
DrFill
Also, in the opinion of some independent, professional reviewers, Hyundai does offer the best vehicles in their class. For example, Edmunds.com rates the Azera best-in-class for its segment. (Also the Accent, but that's not really close to this topic.)
I'm not even going to dignify the payola that was MT with a response. They couldn't do a worst butcher job. :lemon:
If the Veracruz was so sweet, it wouldn't have lost to CX-9 for the Motor Trend SUV of the Year. :surprise:
Not that MT would contradict itself. No.
DrFill
http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/mostwanted/2007/117174/article.html
Yep, I'm sure Hyundai paid MT a huge sum to win that comparo over a Lexus. :surprise: BTW, the comparo I noted was not of the Veracruz to the CX-9--it was the Veracruz to a Lexus. You know, that luxury brand from Toyota?
That says a lot of the SUV but for luxury buyers that counts almost nothing.
I don't like fake wood either. If you look around, it's on almost every upscale car on the road."
I don't need to do a survey. I have factory navigation in my Corvette and my wife has it in her Mazda and we use it all the time. It's great technology and I swore I'd never again buy a car without it. Then I bought my Santa Fe! Quite frankly, though, the lack of available navigation came very close to causing me to buy something else. In the end, I bought the Santa Fe in the hope of being able to retrofit the upcoming 2008 Hyundai nav unit into my 2007.
As for fake wood, you won't find it in the German luxury cars, Jaguars, Infinitis, Lexus, even some Cadillacs - they all use the real deal.
* Cargo capacity
* Seating (7 vs. 5)
* Quietness
* Quicker through slalom course
* Smoother shifting transmission (with 6 speeds vs. 5)
* Superior steering turn-in and linearity
* Intuitive control layout
The summary:
The fact that [the Veracruz] costs less is no longer an excuse to buy a Hyundai. It's just a smart reason. If it's the RX you must have, and the cost delta doesn't matter, buy one and you'll be delighted. Feel like saving some money for something that's functionally as good and a well-conceived machine in its own right? Consider the Veracruz Limited, and you'll be equally delighted. Keep the change.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/suvs/112_0707_hyundai_veracruz_lexus_rx350
The 350 is the benchmark in this segment, there is a reason people buy it. Is it work $10K more than the Veracruz? I guess people have voted with their dollars.
"The Hyundai is the happier handler, though. It's 2.1 seconds quicker through our figure-eight test, which combines transitional handling, grip, acceleration, and braking. And it grips through the skidpad at 0.77 g versus the Lexus's 0.68g run."
"Kudos to the Hyundai's six-speed automatic transmission. It has one more gear than does the Lexus's, shifts smoother without being mushy, and responds quickly to downshift demands. The RX's trans shifts more harshly under heavy load. The Veracruz turns in more confidently and steers in a more linear manner. "
You know, all the things your supposed to do with your vehicle.
Although the Lexus name impresses people more, cause that matters most.
Well, it's supposed to be available on Santa Fe, Azera, and Veracruz Limiteds. I've asked a few dealers about it; some know nothing about it while others say it won't be available until mid-year. The Hyundaiusa web site mentions nothing.
Okay, I'll bite on this. Hyundai really has an uphill battle, because for the most part Lexus customers are loyal fanatics. The $10K buys into a service and ownership experience Hyundai can only dream of. Not to mention their (meaning Lexus) materials are top shelf, better than Hyundai, even if by some judgements Veracruz might be better at one or two things.
So in my opinion I can see why people pay the premium, if this is the audience Hyundai is chasing, they will never make it.
They are not chasing this audience, they are offering comparable products for less cost. Once the mainstream public actually realizes this it will help out the brand and overall image. Those comparison commercials between Santa Fe vs. Land Rover or Azera vs. BMW aren't targeting the people who tend to buy those cars, yourself included, only letting others know that Hyundai offers comparible products for everyone else.
Agreed. And as a "near luxury" car it does very well IMO. Still, it really bugs me that Hyundai has not yet equipped the Azera with navigation. Everything in its class and many cars below its class (e.g. Honda Civic, Mazda 3, Nissan Altima, VW Jetta) has it optionally available.
I personally have one versus paying $2.5K for the factory version and couldn't be happier with it. I took it with me on various personally/business trips and that's one thing the in-dash one couldn't do.
Look into Pioneer or Kenwood systems.
Therein lies the rub. I'm putting "my" Lexus owners hat on for the next sentence. I don't think the products are comparable, the dealer network is not comparable and the dealership experience is not comparable. To me the VeraCruz is a fancy Hyundai with gussied up seats. If you want to believe the mags go ahead, I don't, and my new RX400h now has 100 miles on it. If you believe you have saved $10K over me, great, I marvel at your frugality.
That's right. And let me reiterate my position. It's my money and I have option spending it anyway I chose. I don't have to be opened minded, all I have to do is sign the check. Because IMO the RX350 is a better vehicle and a better vehicle for me. MT cannot convince me otherwise and I want the best for my money. I'm not looking for almost as good for a reduced price.
Contradictions on your end? At the very least, it proves the point every time when Hyundai does something well, some excuses would be made (i.e. it's a mistake, Hyundai paid-off this and that), but then when Hyundai doesn't do it the best, we don’t hear the end of it.
Double standards? Very much so.
How so? Since you do not own a Hyundai how do you know how the dealership experience would be? Well it's obvious that you need the comfort your Lexus and the prestige it provides and that's fine, again Hyundai is not looking to you to be a customer. Just for the sake of humanity don't look at everything with blinders, you may miss out on life.
Class dismissed.
Ever been to a top shelf Lexus dealership? They are rated the best in the country, although some luxury brands are catching up. Are you going to tell me Hyundai dealership is better?
I'm not a Hyundai customer, but I'm willing to bet there are a lot of Lexus owners who aren't willing to jump ship either. There is a reason Lexus retains it's customers.
"Just for the sake of humanity don't look at everything with blinders, you may miss out on life."
I'll take that chance. Thanks for the friendly suggestion, though.
The fact is Hyundai has to be double what Lexus is in order to make market pentration, IMO. It's up against, Lexus, BMW, Infiniti, Acura. Badges that have a solid reputation and loyal customer base, and for very good reasons.
I have been reading these forums for years and have read so many Hyundai-bashing posts over the years. Whatever car you choose to buy who am I to belittle it? I am going to choose Veracruz because its a 7 passenger and I have been buying Hyundais for 20 years and have been pleased with the products.('88 Excel, '92 Scoupe, '98 Sonata, '02 Santa fe, '07 Santa Fe)
As for Hyundai competing with the luxury car makers? That isnt ever going to happen. But if the Veracruz and soon to be released Genesis are any indication of the future......A luxury brand will eventually be spun off....Then you Lexus owners will have reason to defend your purchase
Craig
We previously owned an RX330 (sold it in 2005), and I recently took a good test drive with a Veracruz. Maybe I am biased, but I do not come up with the same conclusions as Motor Trend. Maybe the Veracruz handles better at the limit, or provides better numbers on the track, but for real-world driving, I believe the Lexus drives more like a sedan. I also thought the Lexus had better quality seats and a better sounding base audio system. It's difficult to argue with the quality of the materials in the Lexus cabin, and you can't beat the sales and service experience. I think the RX also offers slightly better fuel economy.
On the other hand, the Veracruz obviously offers more room, and its cabin is quieter than our '04 RX330 was.
My big question: Is a comparable Veracruz truly $10K less than the RX? The loaded Veracruz I saw in the showroom two months ago had a sticker price of $37K. Coincidentally, $37K is what we paid for a well-equipped RX330 back in the late summer of 2003. It was 2WD with the Premium Plus Package, including the wood/leather steering wheel, xenons, and power liftgate. I'm guessing the Veracruz had DVD, and I'm sure it would have come with a few thousand dollar discount. But, is there really a $10K difference? :confuse:
That, my friend, is a FACT.
Now class dismissed.
"Then you Lexus owners will have reason to defend your purchase
That's just a bit of speculation with a lot of hope, isn't it?
I also love how you just keep missing the point.
Good point.
I am currently a Lexus owner but I am a long time Honda/Acura loyalist. I still hope one day I'll be driving an Acura but unless Acura puts out some killer product (like a 350HP, SH-AWD TL with DSG :P ) or Lexus totally disappoints me (like making the next IS into an ES) I see myself being a long time Lexus owner for sure.
You see, if I don't even want to jump ship from Lexus to Acura why would I even consider Hyundai? I am sorry to say but I am a living proof that Hyundai's strategy ain't working for luxury buyers/owners.
With regard to Lexus, when the better cabin, smoother ride, smoother engine, better materials, more "upscale" dealership experience is dismissed, and the comparison becomes the Veracruz is better at the limit, it's easy to see people believe the Veracruz is $10K better than 350.
Nobody has to defend Lexus, the reminder is sales numbers speak for themselves.