Discussions about sales shouldn't really come into play yet since the luxury vehicles from Hyundai hadn't even debuted yet. Hyundai's initial target for the US on the BH can be easily met.
That person ISN'T a luxury car buyer. He doesn't have the income. a person who can afford a Lexus RX isn't going to buy a Vera Cruz. It just isn't going to happen. Real Luxury buyers are for the most part image conscious. Plus, the like the pampered treatment that they get at a lux store. When you go to buy a Lexus, you are treated far better than if you go to buy a Hyundai. After sale care is far better as well. If you bring your Genesis in for service, is Hyundai going to give you another one as a loaner? Probably not. It is one thing to say "Our car is as good as a Lexus,BMW,Benz" It is another to back that up with service and customer care.
Your logic being, someone able to afford the RX isn't buying a Veracruz, that's false. I can tell you as a matter of FACT the RX is being cross-shopped by Veracuz, among others (Enclave, CX-9)
AFAIK, Hyundai has been stiffening up the dealer service arena, in preparation for the BH launch next year. You are again speculating (and bashing for good measure) something you have nothing you can back up. Goodness the car hasn't even launched yet, but sounds like you are already writing off everything. FWIW, I'd hope Hyundai backs up with quality customer care, for their sake.
"It would be just as foolish to compare Mitsubishi, or Mazda, to BMW. Hyundai is in that sub-class, until they prove otherwise. 3rd-tier. Below the Nissan/Honda Tier. Below the GM/Ford/Toyota/Chrysler tier."
There is no way that Chrysler's vehicle line-up is better than Hyundai's right now.
"Hyundai is in EXACTLY the same position the domestics are in. Sales are flat, or falling. The reason for that is when times are tough, gas is high, jobs market is weak, people go to companies they trust and know they will get a ROI."
Well Hyundai's sales are flat for the year but are not falling like Ford's sales are falling.
"Hyundai needs to establish themselves as a non-schitzophrenic company, that can consistently build high-quality, high-value vehicles. The domestics are in the same boat."
Hyundai is building very high quality vehicles this is not the Hyundai of the mid 90's. If the Santa Fe is not a high quality vehicle I must not know what a high quality vehicle is. I think Hyundai has had better quality/reliability than the Domestics since since 2001-2002.
"They can't even sell 500k, with 9 vehicles. Lexus is catching them in sales! What does that tell you?"
Yeah but Hyundai sold how many vehicles in 1998? What like 91K they sold and they have sold 455K the past 2 years.
"Toyota is competing against itself, and they've been the most successful company for the last 10 years."
Toyota is competing against itself you can't be serious Toyota has Honda to compete with and a resurgent General Motors as well.
"They've set records for sales, this year! Tundra. Corolla. Prius. So they can have a slow period, and Toyota gets the benefit of the doubt. They are still well ahead YTD."
Your right about the Corolla probably setting sales records along with the Prius but the Tundra needed big rebates in order to set that sales record.
Well the Phaeton was actually a very good car. Really world class just marketed completely wrong and in the wrong brand. It would have done fine as an Audi or Bentley oh wait it does do fine as an Audi and Bentley because it was built on the same platform.
That person ISN'T a luxury car buyer. He doesn't have the income. a person who can afford a Lexus RX isn't going to buy a Vera Cruz. It just isn't going to happen. Real Luxury buyers are for the most part image conscious. Plus, the like the pampered treatment that they get at a lux store. When you go to buy a Lexus, you are treated far better than if you go to buy a Hyundai. After sale care is far better as well. If you bring your Genesis in for service, is Hyundai going to give you another one as a loaner? Probably not. It is one thing to say "Our car is as good as a Lexus,BMW,Benz" It is another to back that up with service and customer care.
The vast majority of our customers get a Land Rover car as a loaner when they bring their vehicle in for service. We also offer valet pickup and delivery of your vehicle nearly anywhere in the state and even out of state for people living just over the border.
We are trying out a new program now where you pay a set price for your vehicle and you get the following...
1. Full tank of gas with every factory scheduled service visit 2. Full detail with every factory scheduled service visit. 3. Like for like service loaner
Right now we don't offer Range Rover service loaners but for this program we will probably keep one on hand as a demo/service loaner. We may even add a fourth special feature but we haven't decided what yet.
As of right now this is just going on as a trial run with a handful of customers who buy two or three cars a year. If it works well we will implement it for anyone. You pay full MSRP for the car and you get these extra perks. The couple of people who are doing it now love it so I think it will work for many of our customers.
Land Rover's are very low volume but what kind of cars do you get as trade-ins for Land Rovers? Do you get a lot of Mercedes as trade-ins or Lexus's? Do you get alot BMW's as trade-ins? I'm just wondering how people who buy Land Rovers are moving up on the prestige latter and buying these Land Rovers.
"We are trying out a new program now where you pay a set price for your vehicle and you get the following...
1. Full tank of gas with every factory scheduled service visit 2. Full detail with every factory scheduled service visit. 3. Like for like service loaner"
Wow thats nice you get a full tank of gas with each service visit.
The vast majority of our customers get a Land Rover car as a loaner when they bring their vehicle in for service. We also offer valet pickup and delivery of your vehicle nearly anywhere in the state and even out of state for people living just over the border.
Land Rover's are very low volume but what kind of cars do you get as trade-ins for Land Rovers? Do you get a lot of Mercedes as trade-ins or Lexus's? Do you get alot BMW's as trade-ins? I'm just wondering how people who buy Land Rovers are moving up on the prestige latter and buying these Land Rovers.
Oh we get all types of Trades. BMWs, Mercs, Lexi, Infitnties, Acuras etc. We also get lots of Jeeps though as many of those customers want to move up to a more luxurious SUV that has some heritage. I have taken in some cars that were over 100,000 dollars new like AMG mercs.
Wow thats nice you get a full tank of gas with each service visit.
Every Factory scheduled service visit. Land Rover has scheduled maintenance sort of like BMW every 7,500 miles through the end of the factory warranty at 50,000 miles. We are offering the free full tank of gas and free detail for each of those first six 7,500 mile services.
AFAIK, Hyundai has been stiffening up the dealer service arena, in preparation for the BH launch next year. You are again speculating (and bashing for good measure) something you have nothing you can back up. Goodness the car hasn't even launched yet, but sounds like you are already writing off everything. FWIW, I'd hope Hyundai backs up with quality customer care, for their sake.
Uh.........You can take that, verbatim, from any VW exec 5 years ago, before the ill-fated Photon made landed.
The question, that is being avoided, is why would Hyundai succeed where VW failed. At least VW actually makes people think happy thoughts! Another benehit Hyundai lacks, relatively.
This is also going on the presumption that the Azera is a successful entry, and a more expensive car will do as well, or better than that. That's quite a leap of faith, for an objective observer.
Totally agreed. The Phaeton is still a fantastic sedan (just not sold here)
Some people keep bring up Phaeton vs. BH, b/c of Phaeton's short history in the US. Yet somehow they already knew Hyundai would suffer the same fate, months before launching. Those are the same people that claim Hyundai cannot be compared to Lexus, but it compares the Phaeton just alright, just playing an angle here and to show how biased those statements were.
I have actually spent extensive time in the Phaeton a few years back. What an amazing car, another one of those cars that shows you are more into cars that brands. Yes marketing Phaeton with the starting base at $60K+ was probably a mistake, but understand the cost was also a significant factor here (keep in mind the Phaeton still does well in Europe). It has sold almost as much as the GS430 here in the US
Uh.........You can take that, verbatim, from any VW exec 5 years ago, before the ill-fated Photon made landed.
The question, that is being avoided, is why would Hyundai succeed where VW failed. At least VW actually makes people think happy thoughts! Another benehit Hyundai lacks, relatively.
This is also going on the presumption that the Azera is a successful entry, and a more expensive car will do as well, or better than that. That's quite a leap of faith, for an objective observer.
Man we have some fortune tellers here. Tell me, what's tomorrow's lottery winning number? You seem so sure about everything that HAS not yet happened, good or bad.
Why would Hyundai succeed? Let me give you a few possible explanations:
I can't say for certain but it should meet initial target in the US with ease.
FYI - Azera (and Veracruz) have been good sellers for Hyundai. Both are commanding customers with upper trim range delivery. The BH is not going to overlap the Azera and it should be coming out with all of the goodies and packaging to penetrate the luxury field.
Based on my experience, those bashing Hyundai probably hasn't been in a Hyundai. Let's try looking at the subject without wearing the loyalist hat.
Your logic being, someone able to afford the RX isn't buying a Veracruz, that's false. I can tell you as a matter of FACT the RX is being cross-shopped by Veracuz, among others (Enclave, CX-9)
Sorry, but the logic is impeccable. Lexus may get some tire kickers that end up in a Vera Cruz,but that is about it. I've sold Luxury cars for 15 yrs, I have friends who sell Lexus. Trust me, they don't see Hyundai cross shoppers. People who can really afford an RX aren't setting foot in a Hyundai showroom. They have no reason to.
I am not going to do the work for you. Go look them up and get educated yourself. This would also help you attain the necessary working knowledge to use less bashing.
FYI - the BH is more luxury focused, while G8 has more emphasis on sport.
And if you can't figure out how pricing is an advantage, or the amount of buzz the BH has generated, I'd suggest a refresher course to get up to speed with the latest developments around the industry.
Sorry, but the logic is impeccable. Lexus may get some tire kickers that end up in a Vera Cruz,but that is about it. I've sold Luxury cars for 15 yrs, I have friends who sell Lexus. Trust me, they don't see Hyundai cross shoppers. People who can really afford an RX aren't setting foot in a Hyundai showroom. They have no reason to.
Man the arrogance.
If you are so sure then the demographic of the new owners (previous RX owners) must all be lying then - they must be, right? They must have purchased another Lexus RXs but instead lied and said they purchased Veracruz, CX-9, Enclave, for example.
By the way, my firm surveys all of US regarding new car ownership experiences
It bodes well for Hyundai the demographic of the owners. Just in this thread, we've had people coming from Jaguar, Lexus, Audi, and others getting into a Hyundai vehicle. This does not mean Hyundai should stop working, far from it, continue striving, attain and retain consumers. In less than a year, I should have a Hyundai on my shortlist with a bunch of other equally good performers - will it make it all the way to the end and in my garage? We'll see if I become a Hyundai convert...
Hyundai is missing the boat, and doesn't even know it.
I think that is a Toyota salesman's wishful thinking. My local Hyundai/VW/Ford dealer sells 4 Hyundai to every VW. If I was buying a midsized Camry class car I would have probably bought the Sonata. For several good reasons: Camry has first year issues Camry is over priced at MSRP Camry has a poor warranty Camry is ugly
Sonata has colors I like better Sonata has better design Sonata has class leading warranty
Now Toyota vs Lexus The Toyota Sequoia Limited is equal to or better than the Lexus GX470. Further reason to believe that Hyundai will be able to compete in the luxury market. Lexus will probably be better at customer service than Toyota. At least while the warranty is in force. After that hold onto your wallet as they will rob you blind.
Example: The Toyota finance guy we dealt with was very pleasant as was the fleet manager we bought from. He told his mother to buy the top of the line Camry over the Lexus ES350 unless she just wanted to waste $20k. The truth is most of that $20k premium is for the Name Lexus. That is the reason Toyota Japan did not want to offer the Lexus in Japan for years. The people there are more quality conscious than name conscious.
Toyota is not burning up the sales charts either. My Toyota dealer said they were selling a lot of vehicles under invoice to get them off the lot. Especially trucks and SUVs. That is the reason I bought for $10k under List price. A little more than $4,000 under invoice. They would not have sold to me any other way. After I bought my Sequoia, 2 other dealers said they would have matched. I said you did not email me the price so you lost a sale. Of the 9 dealers I sent emails to only 3 responded. My take is that most Toyota dealers are still in the dark ages. I recommend the Internet manager at Poway Toyota for a fast good deal.
Uh.........You can take that, verbatim, from any VW exec 5 years ago, before the ill-fated Photon made landed.
Maybe Hyundai is not following the Pheaeton model. Maybe they're following the Lexus model. :P
I've been treated very well at my Hyundai dealer. I once got a brand new loaner for a 6 hour TSB procedure.
DrFill, you're ignoring the elephant in the room: Hyundai has made huge commitments to producing quality cars and a successful company. If they fail, it won't be because they aren't making the right moves.
A combination of two weak posts? Pretty creative! Ever consider tag-team wrestling? :P
I've gone over, several different ways, how sales are indeed built on what is below a companies surface. The car itself is just the skin. I was hoping you could follow this conversation. I guess I expected too much from you. :lemon:
If Hyundai were a person, it would be a very charming person, dressed well, very energetic.
But a fervent drinking problem, irritable bowel syndrome, and an obsession with No Limit Hold 'Em can drain any long-term relationship. :sick:
Just in this thread, we've had people coming from Jaguar, Lexus, Audi, and others getting into a Hyundai vehicle
Really we did? Can you point them out? I remember other posters saying that people they knew who used to buy Jags, Lexi and Audis going to Hyundai but was it actually anyone posting in this thread?
With the exception of the Vera Cruz because it is brand new on the market I have driven every Hyundai they make. None of them come close to a Jag, Audi or Lexus on any level except for the longer warranty. The Audi is the only one I would want to have the longer warranty on. I wouldn't be worried about the reliability of the Jag or Lexus. I couldn't drive a Lexus though because they feel like I am driving a couch. The leather is too slippery and the seats are all wrong so every time I take a turn I slide out of them. The only Lexus that had decent seats to me was the IS series.
The first time I drove a Sante Fe it had so much torque steer I had to check and make sure it was actually AWD. I had to think back to the last overpowered FWD torque monster I had driven to think of a car with worse torque steer. The SRT-4 I drove once might have been worse but it was hard to say without driving them back to back.
I had that car for two or three days and it was uncomfortable to drive, handled unpredictably and steered like a walrus. The under steer was some of the worst I have ever experienced from a AWD SUV. The second day I had it was raining really bad. I could count the seconds from the time the traction control kicked in and sent power to the rear axle during acceleration. I wasn't even driving it all that hard either just normal throttle input while making a left or right turn from a stop sign.
It was so bad I thought maybe something was wrong with the car so I had our service dept. check it out. Everything looked ok to them but it was under warranty so they sent it to a Hyundai dealership to be checked over. They said it was fine and was driving normally. :surprise:
I have driven a couple of Sante Fe SUVs since then and they have been about the same so it wasn't just that car. Oh and it had brand new BFGs on it too so plenty of tread on the tires.
They are going to have to step it up a lot more to compete with the established luxury players. Sure they will pick up a few sales from people that were stretching to buy a strippy 3 series, A4 or C-class but to break into the core of luxury buyers getting the more loaded compact and midsize sedans they will need a dominating model for much, much less money.
Well the Genesis be that? I don't know I haven't driven it yet but neither has anyone else so no one can say. Once it comes out give it to me for a day and I will tell you if it has a shot. I have driven Ferraris, Bentleys, Astons, along with the top of the line Audis, Mercs, BMWs and Jags so I know a good driving quality car.
I was able to get my hands on a Santa Fe a few months back, and I really enjoyed the ride. I liked the sharp, clean and crisp look on the outside, while the interior felt engaging and contemporary. The ride was smooth and the pickup from the 3.3L V6 was more than adequate, while still felt darn-near quite inside the cabin. It didn't have the sharpest handling but then again it isn't a sports car. Overall, this is an excellent CUV.
I'm laughing at the people who insist anyone who can afford a Lexus won't set foot in a Hyundai dealership. FYI, I make over $300k a year. I could easily afford just about any car. I recently bought a Hyundai Santa Fe Limited AWD, after considering and test driving offerings from BMW, Lexus, Acura and Volkswagen, as well as Toyota and Mazda competition. If I was in the market for a sedan right now, I'd almost certainly be buying a Sonata, as they are great values.
Am I unique? I don't think so. It's true that my neighborhood has a lot of BMW and Mercedes and Lexus cars and SUV's, but it also have Chevy's and Fords and, yes, Hyundais. My wife didn't buy a Hyundai when we needed to replace her car recently, but she did look at the Veracruz and the Entourage before buying a Saturn Outlook.
There are certainly some wealthy consumers who wouldn't be caught dead in a Hyundai showroom, and y'all are right that Hyundai won't be switching them away from Lexus or BMW any time soon. There are plenty of other consumers, however, who are looking for value. They want a quality vehicle with excellent features, nice styling, reliability, low maintenance costs, and a good price. As Hyundai moves its offering more and more upmarket, more and more of those consumers will start cross-shopping Hyundai.
Remember that there was a time when no one thought Toyota and Honda would ever be able to compete with Cadillac, BMW and Mercedes for the high end of the market. They did it by offering high quality, high feature products that were great values compared to the German brands.
not to mention Hyundai's superior body styling on the Hyundai Santa Fe. Hyundai and Kia have body styling prowess over Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Mazda and Subaru. Your photo above proves my point without even having to put a Toyota SUV next to the Santa Fe.
The knock used to be do the Koreans have the build and mechanicals down right. Well, apparently they thought so because the Long-Haul was a marketing genius on their part. They do believe that their engineering teams have the brains and gusto to create and build world-class vehicles. We're seeing in the 2000's vehicles that are just plain incredible values from the Hyundai/Kia juggernaut.
Aren't we considering the new Hyundai Genesis a luxury rig? If we are then can we agree that rear wheel drive will be the mode of propulsion for the Genesis. Has this been changed. Many in America have been looking for a hot new RWD luxury vehicle, one with a nice body design. Hyundai Genesis? Fits right to me. Does Toyota or Honda offer something more desirable, for less money? Nope.
This car is oozing success before it even comes out. Oh, wait a minute. We don't have the ability to foretell the future, do we drfill? Do we?
Without proper message threading, I really don't know! Thank you for using the reply button. It really does help everyone keep track of who is replying to whom.
You seem to have mellowed out and backed off from your constant remarks about Hyundai having "No history of high reliability". I guess Hyundai's stellar reliability since ~2000 has made you face the facts that Hyundai cars are indeed reliable.
My Sonata is 2 years old, and the reliability has been the best of any car I have ever owned, save my Mazda 626. That includes 3 VW's, an Audi, a Toyota, among others. Yes, I had loads of problems with my Toyota, yet I don't go calling all Toyota's a :lemon:
I'll give your 3 years, not seven. The quality surveys improve, noticably about 3-4 years ago. The long-term duarbility studies for 3-4 year olds are still below average. It will take time to overcome their rep.
17 years of negative equity will take some more time to overcome.
GM has made similar gains, in a similar timespan. They are in a similar situation. Their quality is better than you think, but the company isn't exactly trustworthy. I wouldn't throw $30k+ into a GM either.
... is what we have here. A HOST attempted to regain the steering a couple of pages back, but Steve was largely ignored.
Poster one, looking at an apple: "This is an orange!"
Poster two, looking at a carrot: "This is a pumpkin!"
And then the discussion about the relative characteristics of apples, oranges, carrots and pumpkins ensues, with predictable results!
All the various attributes of "luxury car" have been written about, over a multitude of pages, but with no acceptable, uniform standard, there can be only disagreement, save among the two or three folks who might mostly agree on a subjective set of automotive qualities, and declare that set to define "luxury."
And then those two or three folks are immediately aligned against another two or three who find a different set of attributes compelling in establishing the "luxury" appellation.
It's all very entertaining; not much light, but a great deal of heat, and with Winter coming on, "heat" may be this thread's redeeming feature... :shades:
"not to mention Hyundai's superior body styling on the Hyundai Santa Fe. Hyundai and Kia have body styling prowess over Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Mazda and Subaru. Your photo above proves my point without even having to put a Toyota SUV next to the Santa Fe."
Hyundai is outstyling Mazda? I don't think so for the most part. The Sonata looks like an Accord now and the Elantra looks like a Corolla. I'll agree though the Santa Fe does look better than the Rav4 and the CR-V. Kia's are weird/strange looking things except for the first generation Sportage and the current Sedona which I kinda like. BTW, I am a brand new Mazda 6 owner so in my opinion there's no way the current generation Sonata or the Optima is better styled than the Mazda 6.
As for Hyundai and Kia oustyling Nissan Hyundai and Kia has not/ever had a passenger car that was styled as good as the 2002-2006 Altima in my opinion anyway.
I'll agree Hyundai is making a very high quality product these days but they better stop styling Honda and Toyota knock-offs. Thats one of the things that Hyundai got criticized for in their early 90's products was styling their cars to look like knock-off of Japanese branded cars I read once anyway. Notice how the Santa Fe doesn;t look like a Honda/Toyota knock-off and its selling well?
Kia's like I said before I like the first generation Sportage and the Sedona could be a nice value if you are in the market for a mini-van but I would not buy a Kia brcause I'm not sold on their reliability. Would I buy a Hyundai if I liked it? Yes(if it was built in the US that is.) Thats another problem with Kia is they don't make any of their US sold products in the US but I understand Kia is making a new plant in Atlanta I think.
"With the exception of the Vera Cruz because it is brand new on the market I have driven every Hyundai they make. None of them come close to a Jag, Audi or Lexus on any level except for the longer warranty."
Well most of Hyundai's vehicle offerings compete with competing Honda and Toyota brands vehicle offerings and not Lexus, Jag, or Audi except for the Vera Cruz which competes directly with the Lexus RX.
The Vera Cruz looks weird to me(mainly the rear tailights)but at least Hyundai stuck with their styling roots with that car unlike with they did with the current gen Elantra and Sonata. They nailed it perfectly with the Santa Fe on the exterior styling.
If you are so sure then the demographic of the new owners (previous RX owners) must all be lying then - they must be, right? They must have purchased another Lexus RXs but instead lied and said they purchased Veracruz, CX-9, Enclave, for example.
By the way, my firm surveys all of US regarding new car ownership experiences
About the most useless thing in the car business are surveys. They are like political polls,you can get any answer you want. I'm sure you can find 1 or 2 down on their luck Lexus owners who had to buy lesser cars. Rut that is hardly a trend, and it is hardly noteworthy either. It has been my professional experience that Lexus owners tend to be the most loyal owners of ANY brand of cars. To get them out of their cars,you have to do soemthing exceptional. Hyundai hardly qualifies.
"Congrats on the Mazda6. It's a fantastic looking car!"
Thanks joe! The Mazda's is a really good car, its a firm handling car. I got it for about 2,000 dollars under invoice 2 weeks ago. I had to get a new car because I totaled my 2002 Acura CL(base model) in an accident and the Mazda was the closest that I could find to what I like. I have always liked Mazda's I had had one before too.
"Now, I don't see how a Sonata looks like an Accord now, which just came out last month, by the way:"
I think the 2006+ Sonata kinda looks like a 2003-2004 Accord on the rear.
"If anything, I see a slight resemblence from the new Accord."
Well the front of the 06+ Sonata kinda looks like the front of the 98-02 Accord but than again the front of the 06+ Sonata also looks like an 01-06 Elantra on steroids in my opinion.
"Same on the Elantra/Corolla, I don't see it:"
Well the headlights on both cars are kinda similar but than again the headlights on the 07+ Elantra mimic the 02-06 Sonata's headlights in my opinion. The talights of the 07+ Elantra mimic the talights of the 03+ Corolla though.
Suit yourself then. The days when the US domestics dominated the market, there were those similar types not wanting to believe some are actually driving anything other than GM, Ford, Chrysler.
If you don't want to belive former RX owners are purchasing other similar CUVs, then don't believe it. While I agree with you Lexus owners are loyal, and well they should be, this cross over trend is actually happening. I am not saying here others are necessarily better, just there are more options and a more competitve/crowded field. Consumers win!!
Yeah Nissan and Mazda for that matter tried to be Toyota in the mid to late 90's and it failed horribly. I;m surpised Hyundai didn't learn from Nissan and Mazda's mistakes in the mid to late 90's that trying to be Toyota doesn;t work.
".........except for the Vera Cruz which competes directly with the Lexus RX.
Does a safe have to fall on someone's head?
If Veracruz does "compete" with an RX, which it doesn't, it's getting it's tail absolutely kicked!"
Well the Vera Crux and the RX do compete with other I mean they were compared in a magazine comparo
"On what planet does a 7 seat, $27k CUV compete with a $40k+, 5 seat, luxury CUV?"
You sound like the Mercedes execs's in 1989 when the Lexus brand first came out saying we(Mercedes) have nothing to worry about well a decade later they had something to worry about.
Hyundai is getting people who want value for their money(27k vs 40K) so those are the people that are buying the Vera Cruz which is the same thing as the people who bought the Lexus Ls 400 over a Mercedes in 1990-1991. Looks like Hyundai did attened that 1989 history lesson though unlike the mid to late 90's Mazda and Nissan history lesson that that they didn't attened.
Well most of Hyundai's vehicle offerings compete with competing Honda and Toyota brands vehicle offerings and not Lexus, Jag, or Audi except for the Vera Cruz which competes directly with the Lexus RX.
That was kind of my point. One poster in here claimed several people in the thread ad left Audi, Jag and Lexus to go to Hyundai and I said that I had not seen any sign of that.
Like I said I haven't driven the Veracruz yet but it could very well be better then the RX350 but that doesn't impress me much since IMO the RX350 is not a great car.
Reliable? Sure. Quiet? Sure
but my god the seats the handling everything about the drive except the acceleration, which is pretty strong, sucks.
I rarely bother to read Karl's blog anymore and I completely skip over posts regarding Land Rovers. He is so biased against them that they will never make a product he likes. Like in that post he didn't even do the correct reset procedure for the one touch up driver's side window but that is Land Rover's fault. That car could have had a dead battery before he picked it up or someone could have activated the anti-trap feature of the window and either one of those things could disable the one touch up feature.
Comments
Objectively speaking, the Phaeton, which its base ran $60K+, the BH RWD luxury sedan is starting under $30K.
That person ISN'T a luxury car buyer.
He doesn't have the income.
a person who can afford a Lexus RX isn't going to buy a Vera Cruz.
It just isn't going to happen.
Real Luxury buyers are for the most part image conscious.
Plus, the like the pampered treatment that they get at a lux store.
When you go to buy a Lexus, you are treated far better than if you go to buy a Hyundai.
After sale care is far better as well.
If you bring your Genesis in for service, is Hyundai going to give you another one as a loaner?
Probably not.
It is one thing to say "Our car is as good as a Lexus,BMW,Benz"
It is another to back that up with service and customer care.
Your logic being, someone able to afford the RX isn't buying a Veracruz, that's false. I can tell you as a matter of FACT the RX is being cross-shopped by Veracuz, among others (Enclave, CX-9)
AFAIK, Hyundai has been stiffening up the dealer service arena, in preparation for the BH launch next year. You are again speculating (and bashing for good measure) something you have nothing you can back up. Goodness the car hasn't even launched yet, but sounds like you are already writing off everything. FWIW, I'd hope Hyundai backs up with quality customer care, for their sake.
There is no way that Chrysler's vehicle line-up is better than Hyundai's right now.
"Hyundai is in EXACTLY the same position the domestics are in. Sales are flat, or falling. The reason for that is when times are tough, gas is high, jobs market is weak, people go to companies they trust and know they will get a ROI."
Well Hyundai's sales are flat for the year but are not falling like Ford's sales are falling.
"Hyundai needs to establish themselves as a non-schitzophrenic company, that can consistently build high-quality, high-value vehicles. The domestics are in the same boat."
Hyundai is building very high quality vehicles this is not the Hyundai of the mid 90's. If the Santa Fe is not a high quality vehicle I must not know what a high quality vehicle is. I think Hyundai has had better quality/reliability than the Domestics since since 2001-2002.
"They can't even sell 500k, with 9 vehicles. Lexus is catching them in sales! What does that tell you?"
Yeah but Hyundai sold how many vehicles in 1998? What like 91K they sold and they have sold 455K the past 2 years.
"Toyota is competing against itself, and they've been the most successful company for the last 10 years."
Toyota is competing against itself you can't be serious Toyota has Honda to compete with and a resurgent General Motors as well.
"They've set records for sales, this year! Tundra. Corolla. Prius. So they can have a slow period, and Toyota gets the benefit of the doubt. They are still well ahead YTD."
Your right about the Corolla probably setting sales records along with the Prius but the Tundra needed big rebates in order to set that sales record.
That person ISN'T a luxury car buyer.
He doesn't have the income.
a person who can afford a Lexus RX isn't going to buy a Vera Cruz.
It just isn't going to happen.
Real Luxury buyers are for the most part image conscious.
Plus, the like the pampered treatment that they get at a lux store.
When you go to buy a Lexus, you are treated far better than if you go to buy a Hyundai.
After sale care is far better as well.
If you bring your Genesis in for service, is Hyundai going to give you another one as a loaner?
Probably not.
It is one thing to say "Our car is as good as a Lexus,BMW,Benz"
It is another to back that up with service and customer care.
The vast majority of our customers get a Land Rover car as a loaner when they bring their vehicle in for service. We also offer valet pickup and delivery of your vehicle nearly anywhere in the state and even out of state for people living just over the border.
We are trying out a new program now where you pay a set price for your vehicle and you get the following...
1. Full tank of gas with every factory scheduled service visit
2. Full detail with every factory scheduled service visit.
3. Like for like service loaner
Right now we don't offer Range Rover service loaners but for this program we will probably keep one on hand as a demo/service loaner. We may even add a fourth special feature but we haven't decided what yet.
As of right now this is just going on as a trial run with a handful of customers who buy two or three cars a year. If it works well we will implement it for anyone. You pay full MSRP for the car and you get these extra perks. The couple of people who are doing it now love it so I think it will work for many of our customers.
Land Rover's are very low volume but what kind of cars do you get as trade-ins for Land Rovers? Do you get a lot of Mercedes as trade-ins or Lexus's? Do you get alot BMW's as trade-ins? I'm just wondering how people who buy Land Rovers are moving up on the prestige latter and buying these Land Rovers.
"We are trying out a new program now where you pay a set price for your vehicle and you get the following...
1. Full tank of gas with every factory scheduled service visit
2. Full detail with every factory scheduled service visit.
3. Like for like service loaner"
Wow thats nice you get a full tank of gas with each service visit.
The vast majority of our customers get a Land Rover car as a loaner when they bring their vehicle in for service. We also offer valet pickup and delivery of your vehicle nearly anywhere in the state and even out of state for people living just over the border.
The valet pick-up is nice too!
Oh we get all types of Trades. BMWs, Mercs, Lexi, Infitnties, Acuras etc. We also get lots of Jeeps though as many of those customers want to move up to a more luxurious SUV that has some heritage. I have taken in some cars that were over 100,000 dollars new like AMG mercs.
Wow thats nice you get a full tank of gas with each service visit.
Every Factory scheduled service visit. Land Rover has scheduled maintenance sort of like BMW every 7,500 miles through the end of the factory warranty at 50,000 miles. We are offering the free full tank of gas and free detail for each of those first six 7,500 mile services.
Uh.........You can take that, verbatim, from any VW exec 5 years ago, before the ill-fated Photon made landed.
The question, that is being avoided, is why would Hyundai succeed where VW failed. At least VW actually makes people think happy thoughts! Another benehit Hyundai lacks, relatively.
This is also going on the presumption that the Azera is a successful entry, and a more expensive car will do as well, or better than that. That's quite a leap of faith, for an objective observer.
DrFill
A VW gives you happy thoughts? I don't think so. VW reliability is alot lower than Hyundai's reliability these days.
Totally agreed. The Phaeton is still a fantastic sedan (just not sold here)
Some people keep bring up Phaeton vs. BH, b/c of Phaeton's short history in the US. Yet somehow they already knew Hyundai would suffer the same fate, months before launching. Those are the same people that claim Hyundai cannot be compared to Lexus, but it compares the Phaeton just alright, just playing an angle here and to show how biased those statements were.
I have actually spent extensive time in the Phaeton a few years back. What an amazing car, another one of those cars that shows you are more into cars that brands. Yes marketing Phaeton with the starting base at $60K+ was probably a mistake, but understand the cost was also a significant factor here (keep in mind the Phaeton still does well in Europe). It has sold almost as much as the GS430 here in the US
The question, that is being avoided, is why would Hyundai succeed where VW failed. At least VW actually makes people think happy thoughts! Another benehit Hyundai lacks, relatively.
This is also going on the presumption that the Azera is a successful entry, and a more expensive car will do as well, or better than that. That's quite a leap of faith, for an objective observer.
Man we have some fortune tellers here. Tell me, what's tomorrow's lottery winning number? You seem so sure about everything that HAS not yet happened, good or bad.
Why would Hyundai succeed? Let me give you a few possible explanations:
1) Pricing
2) Packaging
3) Buzz
4) Safety
5) Warranty
And more...
I can't say for certain but it should meet initial target in the US with ease.
FYI - Azera (and Veracruz) have been good sellers for Hyundai. Both are commanding customers with upper trim range delivery. The BH is not going to overlap the Azera and it should be coming out with all of the goodies and packaging to penetrate the luxury field.
Based on my experience, those bashing Hyundai probably hasn't been in a Hyundai. Let's try looking at the subject without wearing the loyalist hat.
That's news! Any facts behind that statement? :confuse:
I know they aimed pretty low with the VeraCruz targets.
Why would Hyundai succeed? Let me give you a few possible explanations:
1) Pricing
2) Packaging
3) Buzz
4) Safety
5) Warranty
And more...
How is pricing an advantage? Unless you want to drive a $35k Hyundai? :confuse:
How is the packaging an advantage? Against what? Like the G8, for example?
Buzz? Do you mean the number of commercials? Is Hyundai some hot, hip company, with flat sales?
Safety/Warranty. The warranty is long.
The safety isn't anything special in this price class. :confuse:
DrFill
Sorry, but the logic is impeccable.
Lexus may get some tire kickers that end up in a Vera Cruz,but that is about it.
I've sold Luxury cars for 15 yrs, I have friends who sell Lexus.
Trust me, they don't see Hyundai cross shoppers.
People who can really afford an RX aren't setting foot in a Hyundai showroom.
They have no reason to.
One is $40k+, one is not.
One seats 5. One seats 7.
They are both CUVs. That's about as similar as they get. :confuse:
Tiffany's and Macy's both sell jewelry too.
DrFill
FYI - the BH is more luxury focused, while G8 has more emphasis on sport.
And if you can't figure out how pricing is an advantage, or the amount of buzz the BH has generated, I'd suggest a refresher course to get up to speed with the latest developments around the industry.
Lexus may get some tire kickers that end up in a Vera Cruz,but that is about it.
I've sold Luxury cars for 15 yrs, I have friends who sell Lexus.
Trust me, they don't see Hyundai cross shoppers.
People who can really afford an RX aren't setting foot in a Hyundai showroom.
They have no reason to.
Man the arrogance.
If you are so sure then the demographic of the new owners (previous RX owners) must all be lying then - they must be, right? They must have purchased another Lexus RXs but instead lied and said they purchased Veracruz, CX-9, Enclave, for example.
By the way, my firm surveys all of US regarding new car ownership experiences
I know the numbers, almost by heart, that's why I asked the question.
I've probably gone over these with you before.
There is nothing impressive going on over there.
DrFill
Right, b/c those numbers are not on Toyota level so it's failure. I get how everything works now.
Mazda CX-9 outsells Veracruz handily! Almost 2-1! :surprise:
Hyundai is missing the boat, and doesn't even know it.
DrFill
It bodes well for Hyundai the demographic of the owners. Just in this thread, we've had people coming from Jaguar, Lexus, Audi, and others getting into a Hyundai vehicle. This does not mean Hyundai should stop working, far from it, continue striving, attain and retain consumers. In less than a year, I should have a Hyundai on my shortlist with a bunch of other equally good performers - will it make it all the way to the end and in my garage? We'll see if I become a Hyundai convert...
Santa Fe / Veracruz YTD - 70,005 / 8,618
CX-7 / CX-9 YTD - 32,005 / 16,845 (in Sept. the two had almost the same amounts)
The Veracruz is the newest entrant, having only been on the market for a few short months.
Again this gets turned into a sales forum.
DrFill
Hyundai is missing the boat, and doesn't even know it.
I think that is a Toyota salesman's wishful thinking. My local Hyundai/VW/Ford dealer sells 4 Hyundai to every VW. If I was buying a midsized Camry class car I would have probably bought the Sonata. For several good reasons:
Camry has first year issues
Camry is over priced at MSRP
Camry has a poor warranty
Camry is ugly
Sonata has colors I like better
Sonata has better design
Sonata has class leading warranty
Now Toyota vs Lexus
The Toyota Sequoia Limited is equal to or better than the Lexus GX470. Further reason to believe that Hyundai will be able to compete in the luxury market. Lexus will probably be better at customer service than Toyota. At least while the warranty is in force. After that hold onto your wallet as they will rob you blind.
Example: The Toyota finance guy we dealt with was very pleasant as was the fleet manager we bought from. He told his mother to buy the top of the line Camry over the Lexus ES350 unless she just wanted to waste $20k. The truth is most of that $20k premium is for the Name Lexus. That is the reason Toyota Japan did not want to offer the Lexus in Japan for years. The people there are more quality conscious than name conscious.
Toyota is not burning up the sales charts either. My Toyota dealer said they were selling a lot of vehicles under invoice to get them off the lot. Especially trucks and SUVs. That is the reason I bought for $10k under List price. A little more than $4,000 under invoice. They would not have sold to me any other way. After I bought my Sequoia, 2 other dealers said they would have matched. I said you did not email me the price so you lost a sale. Of the 9 dealers I sent emails to only 3 responded. My take is that most Toyota dealers are still in the dark ages. I recommend the Internet manager at Poway Toyota for a fast good deal.
Aren't you expecting too much from a car salesperson?
:P
Maybe Hyundai is not following the Pheaeton model. Maybe they're following the Lexus model. :P
I've been treated very well at my Hyundai dealer. I once got a brand new loaner for a 6 hour TSB procedure.
DrFill, you're ignoring the elephant in the room: Hyundai has made huge commitments to producing quality cars and a successful company. If they fail, it won't be because they aren't making the right moves.
A point in what? Who are you talking to? Could you please reply correctly so we can follow your posts? :sick:
DrFill
I've gone over, several different ways, how sales are indeed built on what is below a companies surface. The car itself is just the skin. I was hoping you could follow this conversation. I guess I expected too much from you. :lemon:
If Hyundai were a person, it would be a very charming person, dressed well, very energetic.
But a fervent drinking problem, irritable bowel syndrome, and an obsession with No Limit Hold 'Em can drain any long-term relationship. :sick:
DrFill
So your research of Toyota's demand includes one dealership? Wow! That's impressive. :surprise:
Sequioas and 4Runners have a high days supply, as the market has migrated from SUVs to CUVs. Gas prices hurt them more acutely.
DrFill
Really we did? Can you point them out? I remember other posters saying that people they knew who used to buy Jags, Lexi and Audis going to Hyundai but was it actually anyone posting in this thread?
With the exception of the Vera Cruz because it is brand new on the market I have driven every Hyundai they make. None of them come close to a Jag, Audi or Lexus on any level except for the longer warranty. The Audi is the only one I would want to have the longer warranty on. I wouldn't be worried about the reliability of the Jag or Lexus. I couldn't drive a Lexus though because they feel like I am driving a couch. The leather is too slippery and the seats are all wrong so every time I take a turn I slide out of them. The only Lexus that had decent seats to me was the IS series.
The first time I drove a Sante Fe it had so much torque steer I had to check and make sure it was actually AWD. I had to think back to the last overpowered FWD torque monster I had driven to think of a car with worse torque steer. The SRT-4 I drove once might have been worse but it was hard to say without driving them back to back.
I had that car for two or three days and it was uncomfortable to drive, handled unpredictably and steered like a walrus. The under steer was some of the worst I have ever experienced from a AWD SUV. The second day I had it was raining really bad. I could count the seconds from the time the traction control kicked in and sent power to the rear axle during acceleration. I wasn't even driving it all that hard either just normal throttle input while making a left or right turn from a stop sign.
It was so bad I thought maybe something was wrong with the car so I had our service dept. check it out. Everything looked ok to them but it was under warranty so they sent it to a Hyundai dealership to be checked over. They said it was fine and was driving normally. :surprise:
I have driven a couple of Sante Fe SUVs since then and they have been about the same so it wasn't just that car. Oh and it had brand new BFGs on it too so plenty of tread on the tires.
They are going to have to step it up a lot more to compete with the established luxury players. Sure they will pick up a few sales from people that were stretching to buy a strippy 3 series, A4 or C-class but to break into the core of luxury buyers getting the more loaded compact and midsize sedans they will need a dominating model for much, much less money.
Well the Genesis be that? I don't know I haven't driven it yet but neither has anyone else so no one can say. Once it comes out give it to me for a day and I will tell you if it has a shot. I have driven Ferraris, Bentleys, Astons, along with the top of the line Audis, Mercs, BMWs and Jags so I know a good driving quality car.
DrFill
Am I unique? I don't think so. It's true that my neighborhood has a lot of BMW and Mercedes and Lexus cars and SUV's, but it also have Chevy's and Fords and, yes, Hyundais. My wife didn't buy a Hyundai when we needed to replace her car recently, but she did look at the Veracruz and the Entourage before buying a Saturn Outlook.
There are certainly some wealthy consumers who wouldn't be caught dead in a Hyundai showroom, and y'all are right that Hyundai won't be switching them away from Lexus or BMW any time soon. There are plenty of other consumers, however, who are looking for value. They want a quality vehicle with excellent features, nice styling, reliability, low maintenance costs, and a good price. As Hyundai moves its offering more and more upmarket, more and more of those consumers will start cross-shopping Hyundai.
Remember that there was a time when no one thought Toyota and Honda would ever be able to compete with Cadillac, BMW and Mercedes for the high end of the market. They did it by offering high quality, high feature products that were great values compared to the German brands.
The knock used to be do the Koreans have the build and mechanicals down right. Well, apparently they thought so because the Long-Haul was a marketing genius on their part. They do believe that their engineering teams have the brains and gusto to create and build world-class vehicles. We're seeing in the 2000's vehicles that are just plain incredible values from the Hyundai/Kia juggernaut.
Aren't we considering the new Hyundai Genesis a luxury rig?
If we are then can we agree that rear wheel drive will be the mode of propulsion for the Genesis. Has this been changed. Many in America have been looking for a hot new RWD luxury vehicle, one with a nice body design. Hyundai Genesis? Fits right to me. Does Toyota or Honda offer something more desirable, for less money? Nope.
This car is oozing success before it even comes out. Oh, wait a minute. We don't have the ability to foretell the future, do we drfill? Do we?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I guess not.
It's oozing something....but it ain't success! :P
Hyundai and success are rarely used in the same sentence. If you aim low enough (Veracruz), you can front your way to success.
DrFill
Without proper message threading, I really don't know!
Thank you for using the reply button. It really does help everyone keep track of who is replying to whom.
You seem to have mellowed out and backed off from your constant remarks about Hyundai having "No history of high reliability". I guess Hyundai's stellar reliability since ~2000 has made you face the facts that Hyundai cars are indeed reliable.
My Sonata is 2 years old, and the reliability has been the best of any car I have ever owned, save my Mazda 626. That includes 3 VW's, an Audi, a Toyota, among others. Yes, I had loads of problems with my Toyota, yet I don't go calling all Toyota's a :lemon:
17 years of negative equity will take some more time to overcome.
GM has made similar gains, in a similar timespan. They are in a similar situation. Their quality is better than you think, but the company isn't exactly trustworthy. I wouldn't throw $30k+ into a GM either.
DrFill
Poster one, looking at an apple: "This is an orange!"
Poster two, looking at a carrot: "This is a pumpkin!"
And then the discussion about the relative characteristics of apples, oranges, carrots and pumpkins ensues, with predictable results!
All the various attributes of "luxury car" have been written about, over a multitude of pages, but with no acceptable, uniform standard, there can be only disagreement, save among the two or three folks who might mostly agree on a subjective set of automotive qualities, and declare that set to define "luxury."
And then those two or three folks are immediately aligned against another two or three who find a different set of attributes compelling in establishing the "luxury" appellation.
It's all very entertaining; not much light, but a great deal of heat, and with Winter coming on, "heat" may be this thread's redeeming feature... :shades:
Hyundai is outstyling Mazda? I don't think so for the most part. The Sonata looks like an Accord now and the Elantra looks like a Corolla. I'll agree though the Santa Fe does look better than the Rav4 and the CR-V. Kia's are weird/strange looking things except for the first generation Sportage and the current Sedona which I kinda like. BTW, I am a brand new Mazda 6 owner so in my opinion there's no way the current generation Sonata or the Optima is better styled than the Mazda 6.
As for Hyundai and Kia oustyling Nissan Hyundai and Kia has not/ever had a passenger car that was styled as good as the 2002-2006 Altima in my opinion anyway.
I'll agree Hyundai is making a very high quality product these days but they better stop styling Honda and Toyota knock-offs. Thats one of the things that Hyundai got criticized for in their early 90's products was styling their cars to look like knock-off of Japanese branded cars I read once anyway. Notice how the Santa Fe doesn;t look like a Honda/Toyota knock-off and its selling well?
Kia's like I said before I like the first generation Sportage and the Sedona could be a nice value if you are in the market for a mini-van but I would not buy a Kia brcause I'm not sold on their reliability. Would I buy a Hyundai if I liked it? Yes(if it was built in the US that is.) Thats another problem with Kia is they don't make any of their US sold products in the US but I understand Kia is making a new plant in Atlanta I think.
Well most of Hyundai's vehicle offerings compete with competing Honda and Toyota brands vehicle offerings and not Lexus, Jag, or Audi except for the Vera Cruz which competes directly with the Lexus RX.
The Vera Cruz looks weird to me(mainly the rear tailights)but at least Hyundai stuck with their styling roots with that car unlike with they did with the current gen Elantra and Sonata. They nailed it perfectly with the Santa Fe on the exterior styling.
Now, I don't see how a Sonata looks like an Accord now, which just came out last month, by the way:
If anything, I see a slight resemblence from the new Accord.
Same on the Elantra/Corolla, I don't see it:
Does a safe have to fall on someone's head?
On what planet does a 7 seat, $27k CUV compete with a $40k+, 5 seat, luxury CUV?
If Veracruz does "compete" with an RX, which it doesn't, it's getting it's tail absolutely kicked!
So either it is inferior, or targeting the wrong market. :confuse:
I'll throw you a bone and say the latter.
DrFill
Nissan failed miserably, trying to be Toyota.
Looks like history is not a class Hyundai attended.....like ever.
DrFill
By the way, my firm surveys all of US regarding new car ownership experiences
About the most useless thing in the car business are surveys.
They are like political polls,you can get any answer you want.
I'm sure you can find 1 or 2 down on their luck Lexus owners who had to buy lesser cars.
Rut that is hardly a trend, and it is hardly noteworthy either.
It has been my professional experience that Lexus owners tend to be the most loyal owners of ANY brand of cars.
To get them out of their cars,you have to do soemthing exceptional.
Hyundai hardly qualifies.
Seems to be a familiar refrain these days - for example:
"But Karl, you can't compare a premium brand like Land Rover to a Honda or Toyota!"
But he does.
Thanks joe! The Mazda's is a really good car, its a firm handling car. I got it for about 2,000 dollars under invoice 2 weeks ago. I had to get a new car because I totaled my 2002 Acura CL(base model) in an accident and the Mazda was the closest that I could find to what I like. I have always liked Mazda's I had had one before too.
"Now, I don't see how a Sonata looks like an Accord now, which just came out last month, by the way:"
I think the 2006+ Sonata kinda looks like a 2003-2004 Accord on the rear.
"If anything, I see a slight resemblence from the new Accord."
Well the front of the 06+ Sonata kinda looks like the front of the 98-02 Accord but than again the front of the 06+ Sonata also looks like an 01-06 Elantra on steroids in my opinion.
"Same on the Elantra/Corolla, I don't see it:"
Well the headlights on both cars are kinda similar but than again the headlights on the 07+ Elantra mimic the 02-06 Sonata's headlights in my opinion. The talights of the 07+ Elantra mimic the talights of the 03+ Corolla though.
If you don't want to belive former RX owners are purchasing other similar CUVs, then don't believe it. While I agree with you Lexus owners are loyal, and well they should be, this cross over trend is actually happening. I am not saying here others are necessarily better, just there are more options and a more competitve/crowded field. Consumers win!!
Nissan failed miserably, trying to be Toyota.
Yeah Nissan and Mazda for that matter tried to be Toyota in the mid to late 90's and it failed horribly. I;m surpised Hyundai didn't learn from Nissan and Mazda's mistakes in the mid to late 90's that trying to be Toyota doesn;t work.
Does a safe have to fall on someone's head?
If Veracruz does "compete" with an RX, which it doesn't, it's getting it's tail absolutely kicked!"
Well the Vera Crux and the RX do compete with other I mean they were compared in a magazine comparo
"On what planet does a 7 seat, $27k CUV compete with a $40k+, 5 seat, luxury CUV?"
You sound like the Mercedes execs's in 1989 when the Lexus brand first came out saying we(Mercedes) have nothing to worry about well a decade later they had something to worry about.
Hyundai is getting people who want value for their money(27k vs 40K) so those are the people that are buying the Vera Cruz which is the same thing as the people who bought the Lexus Ls 400 over a Mercedes in 1990-1991. Looks like Hyundai did attened that 1989 history lesson though unlike the mid to late 90's Mazda and Nissan history lesson that that they didn't attened.
Well most of Hyundai's vehicle offerings compete with competing Honda and Toyota brands vehicle offerings and not Lexus, Jag, or Audi except for the Vera Cruz which competes directly with the Lexus RX.
That was kind of my point. One poster in here claimed several people in the thread ad left Audi, Jag and Lexus to go to Hyundai and I said that I had not seen any sign of that.
Like I said I haven't driven the Veracruz yet but it could very well be better then the RX350 but that doesn't impress me much since IMO the RX350 is not a great car.
Reliable? Sure.
Quiet? Sure
but my god the seats the handling everything about the drive except the acceleration, which is pretty strong, sucks.
Which one is which?