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There's a dealer that sells Nissan's and Caddy in the same delership? I never heard of those 2 brands paring up in the same dealership before. I have seen/heard of a couple Nissan-Kia dealerships paring in Jersey though(where I live.)
To be fair I think the Cadillac part is its own building. The guy with the Buick-Pontiac-GMC has that in one building and the Hyundai-Subaru building across the street. They all used to be one dealership but he's grown considerably.
Oh yeah I remember seeing the Caddy dealership, and Hyundai-Subie dealer on RT 37 the last time I went down to Seaside Heights. I think I remember seeing the Buick-Pontiac-GMC dealership on RT 37 too.
For the record, I've had no issues so far with my Veracruz (a little under 1000 miles and 3 weeks of ownership). So far, Hyundai is living up to their recent track record for initial quality, one of the main reasons I took the plunge.
I bought a VC, Limited with Ultimate package and am more than satisfied with what I got for $35,000. I had an RX300 before. It has 2200 miles and gets 19 city and 23.5 highway MPG. It is far easier to drive than my Lexus and I don't tire as much on long trips. It seems to "know" where it is going and tracks the road beautifully. Those of you that have VCs know what I am saying.
If you read all the VC comments, you will see that consumers who purchased are very happy. Oh, you do see an occasional set of nutzo comments, but, we all know where those may be coming from.
The biggest obstacle might be getting out the message that Hyundai has "grown up" and is a serious contender for $30000+ vehicles. Some people may still want that "L" in the front of their cars.
I suspect that Hyundai was making a quiet introduction of the Veracruz and will be carefully watching their new addition. Third party reviews and customer comments may help to move the brand forward.
No, they will not put Lexus/Toyota out of business, but, I am sure as we speak their engineers are taking apart a Veracruz and wondering how Hyundai can produce such and excellent product and sell it at the price they do.
I love my Veracruz and recommend it highly. The fact that Motor Trend report compared the Veracruz to the Lexus shows that they are in that luxury market. Though, perhaps in a quiet way for now.
I looked real hard at Lexus ES 350, Infiniti G35 and Acura TL before I purchased a 2007 Azera Limited w/ Ultimate pkg. Did not consider price and still came back to Azera. To me it is in same category as ES 350, G35 and TL - Upscale sedans. The price is what keeps it from being considered in that group.
I considered BMW, MB and Audi, but the reliability records are not real good. Then you have to buy so many options to get a comparable car that the price really skyrockets.
In looking at Lexus/Avalon products, I found the dealers to be arrogant and the prices really inflated compared to Consumer Reports' Bottom Line figures, Lexus in particular.
At one time,nobody thought of Toyota as being capable of producing more than an econobox, much less a luxury car. Of course, the ES350 is really a Camry with a few more bells and whistles and a much higher price tag.
Anxiously awaiting the Genesis. :shades:
So I am looking ahead to next year when I can hopefully afford to buy another luxury car. It won't be a Mercedes. For approx. the same price as a 2 year old E-class I can buy a brand new Azera that has virtually the same features and equipment as the my E-class. And the Azera will be more economical to operate (reg. gas) and more reliable.
To my mind, price is not the determinant of luxury status, but the features and performance. I have yet to test drive the Azera so I cannot say whether I would class it as a luxury car until I see if it rides and handles similar to the MB. I have thought about and looked at the Infiniti M35, the Mercury Milan, and a few other nice cars too. But I have time yet before I need to make a decision. I hope the new Hyundai Genesis is available by the time I need a new car; I'll certainly throw that into the pool of choices. I don't see a problem with a new upscale car being labeled as a Hyundai as they have improved and made a terrific reputation for themselves in the lsat few years.
However, if you look at the current luxury cars, they are actually getting smaller, esp. the back seats and trunks. Lexus is just one example. Also, in order to appeal to the "sport" crowd, they are sport tuning the suspensions which lessens the true luxury ride.
This could leave a big market for Hyundai.
Perhaps, the Azera as a sport tuned, performance model and the Genesis as a large comfortable, luxury model- or vice versa would be a good scheme.
Most luxury car drivers lease their cars,so they only have them for 2-4 years.
Lux cars are really the only cars whose sales are increasing.
BMW, M-B,Audi and Land Rover are having record years.
no real lux car buyer would be caught dead driving a Hyundai,unless its a rental car.
They have also had worldwide record sales.
the best performance in 714 months of business.
-Rocky
Maybe the Hyundai's don't have the last little bell or whistle, but they have the important things that make a luxury car.
If you drive the cars without knowing the price or what badge is stuck on it, the gap closes dramatically.
I think there's a huge market out there consisting people who want luxury, but are just short of affording it (or are too smart to pay 2x what it's worth).
If you drive the cars without knowing the price or what badge is stuck on it, the gap closes dramatically.
It would be difficult to contradict yourself more. :sick:
Hyundai needs to build their brand image, which they seem to want to do in a microwave, and then build a new luxury brand, if they want to do this right. That cake won't rise without all the ingredients.
Sounds like the want to half-[non-permissible content removed] it. It's shown in their Hyundai sales. I see their sales problems continuing. :lemon:
DrFill
Most luxury car drivers lease their cars,so they only have them for 2-4 years.
Lux cars are really the only cars whose sales are increasing.
BMW, M-B,Audi and Land Rover are having record years.
no real lux car buyer would be caught dead driving a Hyundai,unless its a rental car.
I'm not talking about uber rich, traditional luxury car buyers. I'm talking about younger people that would settle for an "entry level" luxury car. They don't care as much about status as the older luxury car owner. They would like a nice, large, safe, comfortable car with good reliability that doesn't cost them a year's salary.
If you think a prestigious badge or a high purchase price magically make a car luxurious, then we can never agree. If you compare such tangible attributes as ride, room, appointments, styling, and safety, then we have some common ground. I can understand those who disagree, because high price is practically the very definition of a luxury car. A $75K Caddy is a luxury car, an identical $30K Caddy would not be considered a luxury car... except for what the badge hinted at.
Look up the revolving door of executives.
Look up the weekly revisions of their sales goals.
Look up the sales of their core products (Elantra and Sonata).
Look up the change in marketing, and who their new target market is.
I know what's happening. The question is do you know? :confuse:
If you want to use the word idiotic, that's fine. Know what it means first, and show that you can use it in a sentence, that's all I ask.
If you come here, aren't educated, then want to call me out, know what your talking about first.
If you're gonna be rude, I'll let you wallow in your own ignorance.
DrFill
I think hyundai hopes that people believe that is all that it is.
Luxury is engineering details. Suspension design, brake systems, material quality.
Hyundai simply cannot match the best from the Germans or Lexus in those categories.
I would say that the badge matters MORE to those people.
These are people who would buy or lease the least expensive bimmer or benz just to say that they drive one.
If you lok at sales for Lexus,BMW, M-B, Volvo, Audi etc you will find that they all sell more of their inexpensive cars than the expensive ones.
With reviews matching the RX350 to the VeraCruz and the Hyundai winning the contest, I think it proves that at least they have a fighting chance at those that are not brand conscious such as myself.
MT used to be good.
But television used to be watchable, too. :lemon:
DrFill
They have also had worldwide record sales.
Wrong thread?
-Rocky
Detroit Auto Show in January, although we could see domestic market version (S. Korea this December or earlier).
The car still doesn't have an official name yet, although the Genesis is an ideal candidate, and still is in the running. For the time being, most in the industry, myself included, calls the RWD luxury sedan the "BH", appropriately as its dubbed codename.
The near-production concept Genesis at New York Auto Show this past year, a very large portion, should flow through to production.
Gas is approaching 3.00 dollars a gallon Land Rover only sells SUVs and before April the least expensive vehicle sold by Land Rover started at around 48,000 dollars. Even now the average MSRP of Land Rover's is well over 50,000 dollars.
If any brand was going to be seeing a slow down it would be Land Rover.
Talking about memories, recent memory tells me the past few months which Toyota was down, how did Hyundai do? Someone forgot to tell you they were up.
I see that's the sales problem Hyundai has...regardless, drfill's "Hyundai (alleged) half [non-permissible content removed] plan" has nothing to do with the purpose of this forum. By the way, the sales setback the whole industry is going through - it's called housing and the ripple effect.
After 30 years of having only GM products, I bought a new Santa Fe this year for my wife. I bought it because it had everything I wanted, plus was about $10,000 less than other vehicles we looked at. The only vehicle that we went back and forth with was a Duramax Silverado extended cab 4x4.
But since it was the wife's, the Sante Fe won out. :surprise:
A couple of my customers, one who owns a BMW 545i and a Jag XJ and another who has a Mercedes CL500, both brought over brand new Hyundai vehicles for me to check out for them.
One was a new Azera Limited and the other was Tiburon Limited.
They both were saying that the vehicles had everything their other cars had, but less than half the pricetag.
They were tickled to death. Now their high dollar cars can go in the garage, while they drive a similar car. (Their words, not mine)
And before you go and say that they probably couldn't afford another vehicle, they can. But they are also conscious of the fact that sometimes you don't have to spend that kind of money.
I will be on a similar path as your customers, as there is a good chance the forthcoming BH luxury RWD sedan will end up in my garage next year. The other two on the short list is the G8 & the M. And should I end up with the BH, who knows, I may get its matching cousin, the RWD coupe based on the same platform
This is still at least a good 9 months away so we'll see...
If Hyundai continues to keep the prices down and provide the quality they have been, along with the 10yr/100,000 mile warranty, then a lot of the car manufacturers will need to start staying on their toes.
One of the deciding factors on buying the Santa Fe was that for $28,000 we got everything that we wanted.
Basically a loaded vehicle. I had them drop the leather seats (Teenagers and leather, not a good idea) and the entertainment center. It wasn't needed, as I do some installs.
Once my sister in law saw our Santa Fe, they ended up buying a Tuscon, which was too small for us, but she paid less than $20,000 for it.
The thing is, they seem to be holding up pretty well and their cost is reasonable. That in itself is a big seller.
They sure seem to like to put the luxury type items in their vehicles.
DrFill,
How do you get that Hyundai competing with Toyota in engineering, quality, features,and value is "shady"? It's a free market, sir.
Alright, I'm going to tell you a story.
There was a unique car made many years ago called the Toyota Supra Turbo. It had 320HP, which was about 500 in today's market, and would beat pretty much any sports car any magazine could put next to it, for value or performance. And from humble Toyota, no less, it was a shock to the industry. It was The One.
It was so impressive, in fact, Road & Track found need to find it some real competition. Not a direct comparison as to what was better, but a fun little exercise, and a nice way to sell magazines. Put a Supra against a Ferrari 512 and a Porsche.
Suffice to say, the Supra did very well, but the exotics weren't included to be discredited. And the exotics offer advantages that make a true comparison unrealistic.
The point is discrediting a vehicle in another class is not a legitimate basis for comparison, especially against a vehicle that hadn't made sale one, nor shown superiority to the vehicles it competes with (HL, Pilot, CX-9). :confuse:
How seriously should I take a publication that takes a new vehicle that doesn't sell well, and isn't compared to class-competitors, but, in a rather sloppy test study, overmatches the best-selling luxury SUV of all-time? Doesn't the Veracruz seat 7? why would anyone compare it to the RX? The RX is $40k plus! And a luxury vehicle, from a respected marque? The test has little basis in reality, and should be treated as such.
Nobody replaced their Ferraris for Supras, and the same applies here. This test is more of a disservice to the Lexus than R&T's article. And, having read MT for 20 years, it is far from their best work. :lemon:
The market hasn't started any stampedes to the Hyundai dealerships since the test. You tell me what value to place on it? What has been the market's reaction?
My point is make a legitimate comparison. Take on Pilot and CX-9, and HL, then we'll talk. I've already seen Tucson and Santa Fe get beat by their peers handily. What should be any different with a VeraCruz?
DrFill
We'll need to work on the grammar, but I the answer is pretty simple.
If you have bad credit, bankruptcy, foreclosure, then want to buy a house because you've had a good couple of years in the stock market, do you expect a 6% rate?
Hyundai struggles to sell what they have, and when they bring in a new model, the falling sales from their current line-up mitigates the increase. This has been going on for 2 years.
What is the change?
DrFill
Funny how you always stretch the truth...
Sales are important but not the total indication for success. My point being, before jumping the gun and writing it off, let Hyundai bring these products (ie. BH sedan and coupe) to the market and then make the judgment how it has penentrated the market, after the market has had time to absorb.
What's also clear - in your mind, Hyundai has never succeeded, and will never succeed, EVER. So my question is why spend so much time here, we heard you loud and clear the first time and every time after that...
You keep switching the conversation to sales, because when you compare the actual cars, you lose.
High sales has never created a good car, and never will. If we compare the Veracruz, Azera, and undoubetly the Genesis, they are way more car than anything in their price range. They even stack up well with cars costing 25% more. It's just a matter of time until the public is educated to that fact.
I can't say I agree. People in the make/model discussions not only compare across classes, many of them activity shop between pickups and hatchbacks or other disparate cars. Lots of posts here have people reporting that they went to the showroom to pick up a new Dodge only to find themselves swayed by a Mazda that the dealer also happens to sell. What seems legit to you isn't an iron clad rule and the manufacturers spend a lot of money chasing conquest sales.
Edmunds must be selling lots of magazines - we're comparing an '84 Ferrari to a '97 Sedona. Who's got it better, Magnum or Mom? :shades:
I don't really care what's happening in other discussions. I care somewhat more in legitimate car publications, that people turn to for advice. CR, MT, C&D are relied upon, by millions of people to help make an educated decision. Are we all in agreement on that?
Just because you sell a lot of cars doesn't mean you make anything in particular. All it means is people trust you with their money. Are we all in agreement on that? Cars are an investment in a company. People rarely invest in companies they don't trust.
Hyundai is in EXACTLY the same position the domestics are in. Sales are flat, or falling. The reason for that is when times are tough, gas is high, jobs market is weak, people go to companies they trust and know they will get a ROI.
Toyota has been down for 3 months. But are almost 5% up for the year. Honda is up as much, if not more. Why is that?
Toyota is competing against itself, and they've been the most successful company for the last 10 years. Not even a close second. They've set records for sales, this year! Tundra. Corolla. Prius. So they can have a slow period, and Toyota gets the benefit of the doubt. They are still well ahead YTD.
Hyundai doesn't get a pass, because they've been consistently NOT reaching THEIR OWN GOALS, much less setting records. Santa Fe is the ONLY vehicle having a good year, actually helping the business.
Comparing a Hyundai to a Lexus is beyond folly, to anyone who is objective. Lexus doesn't deserve to be thrown in with Hyundai, on any level. That is disrespectful. Period! Like comparing Lebron James to some kid at the playground. :lemon:
It would be just as foolish to compare Mitsubishi, or Mazda, to BMW. Hyundai is in that sub-class, until they prove otherwise. 3rd-tier. Below the Nissan/Honda Tier. Below the GM/Ford/Toyota/Chrysler tier.
Hyundai needs to establish themselves as a non-schitzophrenic company, that can consistently build high-quality, high-value vehicles. The domestics are in the same boat.
They've both had plenty of chances to save themselves, and haven't gotten it done. This is not news. Now, all of the sudden, Americans are supposed to run to them and buy their vehicles, because they say they're good now? Come on.
EVERYTHING comes back to sales! That's the name of the game. If sales are flat, or falling, it's your fault. If sales are up, it's your fault. These are not stocks.
Hyundai probably makes a lot of good vehicles, but the market doesn't care. Why? History. Competition. And poor management. :lemon:
Targeting Lexus in your marketing is foolish. They need to build their business legitimately. One customer at a time.
If they were REALLY SMART, they'd forget luxury cars, and build their business. They can't even sell 500k, with 9 vehicles. Lexus is catching them in sales! What does that tell you? :confuse:
Toyota isn't perfect, but they might have the perfect plan. And that's more than I can say for Hyundai. They're just throwing spaghetti against the wall. It maybe good spaghetti. But it's on the friggin' wall! :sick:
Hyundai hasn't shown me they can build a successful business. Lexus shouldn't even enter their minds, unless they want to build a luxury marque, the right way. Then please take as many pages out of their book as you can!
They're making this harder than it really is.
DrFill
This forum isn't really about bean counting, but, as the title suggests, "is there room in the luxury market for Hyundai". This is not a sales discussion.
And why can't some of Hyundai's vehicles measure up to Lexus? Actually we all know they already have but it's fine if you wanted to keep hiding the truth.
All I know is this, Hyundai worked themselves up to the #6 largest automaker in the world, and the perfect candidate for the most improved the past decade. You can keep bash them down but history is not on your side, which is a very good thing. The history I am talking about is when most bashed Toyota and Honda down in the US.
Honda and Toyota had plans. That worked. They built their business, and left Cadillac/Mercedes/BMW to their own, until they were ready to do it right.
What Hyundai is doing ain't working. It's definitely the cheap way in. Reinforces their nickel-and-dime image.
There's room in the market for 2nd-rate companies. that's what Infiniti/cadillac/Acura are for. Or 3rd rate companies. That's what Lincoln is for.
I thought Hyundai wanted to establish themslves as a company to be taken seriously.
My bad. :P
DrFill
When you're a car company that isn't selling enough cars, you must take a close look at how you can sell more of them. In most cases, the answer is to build better cars, plain and simple. That's what Hyundai is doing. Many here may remember when Audi was in the same position. After the unintended acceleration fiasco, they couldn't give their cars away (at least in the U.S.). Their business plan: Build cars so good that they could legitimately compete with Germany's best but at significantly lower prices. The initial results were the 80, 90, 100, and 200. They kept at it with the A4, A6, and A8. They put thenselves back on the map by hitting the bullseye with their cars. As a past owner of 2 recent-year A6s, I'll state emphatically that they've nailed it. Their sales figures confirm it. Fortunately, Audi had the forsight to ride out the lag time for their sales to catch up after the new product came to market.
MT's Veracruz/RX comparison is wholly legitimate. They didn't compare the 2 companies as wholes, they didn't compare corporate marketing plans, and they didn't compare changes in their executive rosters. They compared the 2 vehicles, plain and simple. Whether or not you agree with the verdict, I couldn't care less. The fact is, MT did the article because Hyundai clearly went after the RX with the Veracruz. Some will think that they succeeded, others will not. The point is that the Veracruz is a much better SUV than it would have been had Hyundai's target been a lower one.
I hear one person here arguing that Hyundai has no business trying to play in the luxury league. I for one applaud them. They're working a lot harder than much of their competition and if they stick it out, they'll emerge victorious.
(I remember when, in 1980, no one gave the U.S. olympic hockey team a chance against the Russians. The problem was, neither Coach Herb Brooks nor his players let their competition's record dissuade them from going after them. The rest is history.)
Reach for the stars, Hyundai!
What's foolish is not targeting the leader (or targeting above and beyond them). What's amazing is how well Hyundai is doing on JD Powers owners reports in light of all the CEO troubles and frequent strikes.
I think the Azera and Genesis will challenge the luxo segment nicely, but if they want to keep value guys like me on their radar (and away from the Yaris and Fit) they'll need to keep at it with the Entourage or new Elantra hatch.
I think the Azera and Genesis will challenge the luxo segment nicely.
My sentiments EXACTLY.
Can Hyundai convince real luxury car customers to abandon their cars for Hyundai's?
No. not a chance.
Can Hyundai capture someone who is trying to choose between a Honda Accord or a really cheap 328i w/ leatherette?
Possibly.
That person ISN'T a luxury car buyer.
He doesn't have the income.
a person who can afford a Lexus RX isn't going to buy a Vera Cruz.
It just isn't going to happen.
Real Luxury buyers are for the most part image conscious.
Plus, the like the pampered treatment that they get at a lux store.
When you go to buy a Lexus, you are treated far better than if you go to buy a Hyundai.
After sale care is far better as well.
If you bring your Genesis in for service, is Hyundai going to give you another one as a loaner?
Probably not.
It is one thing to say "Our car is as good as a Lexus,BMW,Benz"
It is another to back that up with service and customer care.
Luxury sometimes is just defined by price (the Jones syndrome?). Or it's something not essential (do you really need headlamp wipers?). Or it's hard to obtain (maybe a Mayback?).
Fresh fruit used to be a luxury. Now everything is shipped by air or by refrigerated trucks and ships, so no one is impressed by your lunch orange. With credit, almost anyone can swing a loan for a big black Mercedes.
For the truly wealthy, you have to wonder if they feel like they can impress any of their peers with something as ordinary as a car. They are probably showing off their $400 million dollar yachts and tricked out 757's.
DrFill
At the end of the day, you are driving a Hyundai.
It's not about the car, it's the company people have to buy into. :sick:
DrFill
The Phaeton was an abject failure.