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Comments
The automotive press, including forums like this one, is an influencer of what people think about cars and what cars they buy. If the automotive press continues to talk in positive terms about Hyundai's offerings, whether it's one of their SUVs comparing very well to a Lexus or their top-end sedan being "most wanted" in its class, that will have a positive impact on what people think about Hyundai's ability to address the luxury market.
It is true to a certain extent and not true in another. Press coverage, including tv and radio will also get people into the showroom, but it's the car and the reputation that imo, sells. There are a lot of Aztecs on the street, so the maxim, "if they build it you will come", always applies.
The fact that the press "says" the Veracruz compares to the RX350 is one reason I take these reviews with a grain of salt. Yes, it does compare, heck a Pilot compares with the RX350 :-), but it's not at the same level. It might even be $10K less.
"Compare" was not precise enough, I apologize. I should have said "superior to."
Then my eyes must have been blind. I have seen maybe 1 or 2 during its short 4 year life ending in 2005.
The first year, the Aztek sold just a little over 27K (with more than 50% gone to fleet IIRC), well short of the 75K/yr goal. It just went down hill in the next three years. Most of the first year retail sales may had something to do with the ad in the first Survivor reality show
Aztek has come up a little too many times here
I've mentioned that a time or 10 on these forums.
Agreed that Hyundai is not ready to spin off a luxo division yet. They are inching toward viability, but aren't there yet. I'm agreeing with Shapiro and Fill, but for different reasons.
Hyundai's current line is more than competitive in quality, reliability, and engineering with all their competitors. Fortunately for us owners, that is a very well kept secret, keeping Hyundai prices stunningly low. Like all secrets, it will eventually get out, and the herding instinct will take over. I think we could possibly see Hyundai becoming the Toyota of the 2010 decade. Then they will be ready to spin off a luxo badge. I may be wrong about that, but I don't even care.
I'm going to be in the market for a new near-luxury car car in 2014. Will I buy another Hyundai? If today were 2014, the answer would be yes. In 2014, another maker may have knocked off Hyundai as the best quality for the dollar, and I'll defect without conscience. I don't play that badge game.
Superiority, is in the eyes of the beholder. I could be justified in my thinking an Aztec is superior to the RX350. Doesn't mean a rational person would think the same way.
Seems like Hyundai's best chance of success is from non-badge hounds. That is why I won't be a Hyundai customer in the future. In my opinion, the badge buys a better automobile and better service and ownership experience and I'm willing to pay for that.
I have an Aztec for sale. Anyone worried about diminishing returns?
Can't agree with the reliability part, but, like the domestics, they probably are building something comparable, dynamically, with the Japanese.
Although not class-leading, at least comparable. Same as the domestics.
As you implied, "Word-of-mouth" is not what you would call....uh....good. No.
When a car is really good, and meets, or exceeds your expectations, you tell people. That's a fact. This isn't happening.
That's what gets customers in the showroom. Not flashy ads, and deficient reporting. :surprise:
DrFill
Are you really trying to tell me, my way of buying cars is wrong? Would you like to give me the car? I will happily accept it. Otherwise when I spend thousands of dollars I do what I feel comfortable about doing, not what you think I should be doing. Is there any issue with that?
Looks like someone needs to get out more...
Lexus has been selling on JDM for 2 years now. In China and Russia Lexus is the fastest growing luxury brand and Russians even come here to study how Lexus dealerships operate. In Taiwan, Lexus has been the top selling luxury brand for several years now.
Cheap alternative? That might be the case 17 years ago with the ES250 and LS400. Have you been comparing price between Lexus, BMW and MB lately? I'll be that you didn't. Granted Lexus is still "cheaper" compare to BMW and MB but only by a fraction now.
Lexus knocks out Mercedes in China's high-end car market
Growth Lets Lexus Lead Russian Expansiontle
No, not at all. I said that you are the kind of customer that Honda and Toyota love. I didn't say anything about your being wrong in how you decide to buy a car. It's your money, not mine.
"new near-luxury car"
Exactly my point.
Hyundai has earned its place in the near-luxury market with the Azera but luxury market is a totally different league. According to history, no mainstream brand has ever successfully entered the luxury market (remember VW?). I am not saying it's impossible but it'll be a tough road ahead for Hyundai if that's where it is headed.
To Hyundai: Take the road that's less traveled.
DrFill
If you would open your eyes, and ears, a little more, you would see it happening all over the place--here in Town Hall, and in the outside world. But then, you aren't prone to be looking/listening for that kind of input, are you? Not exactly a prospective Hyundai buyer, are you?
I beg to differ.
My neighbor's 2007 Santa Fe is really good, certainly has met and exceeded his expectations, and he has told people
The fact of the matter is this: Hyundai has a lineup of quality vehicles, on-par or better than the competitors. Don't believe me? Try it yourself...and there lies within the problem - a lot of consumers are so narrow-minded and ignorant. Unfortunately we live in an egotistic world.
Also, Mazda claims to be pulling customers from luxury SUVs to their CX-9. Hyundai may be doing the same for their Veracruz, but I haven't seen a published report on the cross-over yet.
Oh, really? Take a look at some of the other threads here. Take a look at the owners' ratings and comments for the various models here at Edmunds.com. It's definitely happening. It's also one of the things that not only got me into the Hyundai showroom, but also convinced me to buy a new Santa Fe Limited AWD.
LS400
S-Class
Hyundai has gone out of it's way to come across as the next Toyota, and sales couldn't be more flat, going on two years.
The proof is in the pudding.
Hyundai has to put more than a couple of good years in before we start answering questions nobody is asking, like can Hyundais compete with Lexus.
Can Hyundai compete with Mazda? How about that question. That's a legitimate question. :surprise:
People who are happy in Hondas and Toyotas aren't ignorant, or narrow-minded (a narrow-minded comment itself).
They just aren't interested. Just like they aren't interested in domestic Malibus and Sebrings.
Hyundai has to wait in line for those customers, and work on building their brand, and not trying to live out fantasies.
Keep one foot on the planet, and that will be the first step in gaining some respect.
DrFill
Pay close attention here. It was "Lexus" instead of "Toyota". Although no one would know what'll happen if the LS400 debut as a Toyota but IMO I don't think it could be as successful.
I hope you are not saying that with a straight face, Mr. Toyota salesman. In terms of sales (just for you), Hyundai is far ahead of Mazda, and that's just in the US; stretches further when we take the world figures into account.
That said, both Mazda and Hyundai offers are very good.
People who are happy in Hondas and Toyotas aren't ignorant, or narrow-minded
You are twisting the words and taking it way out of context. Suggest you go back and follow the discussion. Actually, I would consider myself ignorant and narrow-minded back in the days, yes I didn't give the Japanese a try then. Long story short, it was only years later I had myself a Japanese toy to play with. Since, I have been shopping all over. I never once said (or implied) people with Hondas or Toyota aren't happy with their purchase(s) - they deserve to be, nor I was implying Honda, Toyota customers are ignorant/narrow-minded. I was simply making a general observation based on another's comment (see below).
ignorant - lack of knolwedge; unaware or uninformed
narrow-minded - having the restricted outlook
Again, the example of myself, or many others back in the days - not stepping a foot into a Japanese maker showroom - which is the observation I made after seeing another poster's comment; only this time the Japanese showroom is replaced with the Koreans. What's next, the Chinese, the Indians?
I guess you think a beautiful painting is not valuable unless the artist cut off his ear while painting it.
Here's where you're going wrong Fill. You think Hyundai is trying to be Toyota. They're not. You think Hyundai should be forced to "earn it" by following Toyota's epic 40 year path to success. It would be silly and wasteful for Hyundai to try to reinvent the wheel when they already know Toyota's recipe. Knowing the formula should cut many years from Hyundai's journey to success, and that seems to be making you uncomfortable. It's only cars Fill. Should Toyota fall on hard times, you can always go back to selling what you sold before.
Hyundai wants respect right now, and hasn't paid off their first 16-18 years of poor quality.
It's that simple.
Not asking for 40 push-ups. Can I get 10 good ones? :confuse:
GM is just now building decent cars. After 30 years of them crying wolf, now they actually care what they're building.
Better sell the Toyota and run in for a Malibu. Pretty simple, right?
Hyundai has to go, hat in hand, until they put in the time.
How long? Don't call us.....
DrFill
I believe their pricing should be at that same percentage accordingly.
Or more on topic, would you buy a V8 luxury sedan with all the bells/whistles for $30k, if it's a Hyundai--and assuming you would want that kind of car?
It's partly those buyers who will buy a luxury car and/or SUV with the name Hyundai on it.
drfill's outnumbered on here and for very good reason...people are allowed to use their noggins and are not told what they should have to buy.
Things like the economy affect Hyundai's U.S. sales and "I just want to make a totally safe" purchase people can continue to buy Honda's and Toyota's, oh sure they can.
Meanwhile people testing the products are publishing reports that Hyundai is making a very, very fine product for buying and driving. Ya know what, people are responding to those reports!
And people reading online Edmunds news and forums are learning more and more all the time. Is there room in the luxury market for Hyundai in America? People are coming to that conclusion and most importantly, the maker themselves, Hyundai already knows they can sell Hyundai's as luxury items.
These are just automobiles, the other makers don't have as tight a fisthold on everybody's pocketbook as you Toy/Lexus worshippers seem to have a notion they do.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
What are you talking about? Hyundai doesn't have a single offering as luxury car/SUV. Genesis is going to be the closest thing to it when it debuts. Veracruz is a near-luxury SUV that competes with Honda Pilot and Toyota Highlander. In order to become a luxury SUV it needs better fit-n-finish and interior materials. Navi plus bluetooth don't make a luxury car. Total package plus dealership/service experience do.
I really do hope people can differentiate between "near-luxury" and "luxury". Near-luxury means bluetooth, navi and leather. luxury means excellent product and first class treatment. People who drive luxury cars aren't stupid, there are reasons why they are willing to spend more for that and sometimes it's hard to understand until one actually experienced it.
Things like the economy affect Hyundai's U.S. sales
Well, that didn't stop Toyota to reach and exceed their goals for the last couple years. Like Doc has pointed out, Hyundai's growth has been slowed for the last couple years despite there are more models in their lineup. Lately Hyundai has scaled back its Sonata production which to me it wasn't a good sign. This car was supposed to be the bread and butter for Hyundai but apparently after the 1st year hype it did little impact to segment leaders like Accord, Camry and Altima. If Hyundai can't even become a legitimate player in the mainstream segment how is it going to be successful in the luxury market?
Huh? Drfill is echoing what people are probably thinking. Would I pay $30K for a Hyundai SUV? Not really, some other person might. Will that model take away a buyer of the Cayenne turbo, X5 4.4, RX350, Touareg? Who knows?
These are not just automobiles and people are very particular about what they purchase. Can they do it? I give them 10 years. But if they want to beat the big boys they have to offer more than a V8 at $30K imo.
Yikes, I see Hyundai has now been banned at selling people what they want. You guys are incredible.
Hey, America! Don't buy a Hyundai Genesis V8 RWD luxury but not really luxury automobile because these know-everythings here at Edmunds have declared you inept at making "near" luxury luxury V8 RWD cars. Listen to the drivel you're writing and tell me you're smart and maketh more sense than everyone else.
And don't try and call the Veracruz a "luxury" SUV ever again. They're not good enough for these guys. And when these guys type a message "real" people listen. Listen up.
Imagine Dirty Harry holding a gun to your head while you surf the net looking for real information. Listen carefully to your drivel first before continuing to type.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Let me be clear:
1. Genesis will be the closest thing Hyundai has ever made to be considered as a luxury car
2. Currently Hyundai doesn't have any luxury car/SUV
3. Veracruz is not good enough to be considered as a luxury SUV. It is a near-luxury SUV which competes IN THE MARKETPLACE (hint: not Hyundai supporter's own mind) with Honda Pilot and Toyota Highlander.
4. There is a big difference between near-luxury and luxury.
5. Hyundai needs to take care of business in its bread and butter market segment before jumping into luxury market.
6. It's too early to say that Genesis won't succeed with a Hyundai badge but if history is an indication it'll be more likely to succeed under a new luxury brand.
7. To Hyundai: It takes patience and money to make money and take the road that's less traveled.
I believe their pricing should be at that same percentage accordingly.
In terms of what? Regardless, not even Honda and Toyota would make such an outrageous statement like that. Try again please.
Further, there have been luxury buyers switching from other brands to Hyundai, RX to Veracruz, A6 to Azera, just some examples.
It's too early to say that Genesis...
Thank you. Will you please tell drfill and others to stop the bashing (i.e. BH will be a failure), unless anyone here has already lived the future. No one thought the Japanese would succeed, and yes, they've had sub-par products, look what's happening now. Anyway, I am not saying the BH will succeed or not, but regardless, Hyundai is taking another step in the right direction to combat its obstacles.
Louis,
With all due respect.....Have you ever driven the Veracruz? I'm going to assume you have tried it and your statement is based on first hand experience opposed to speculation and personal opinion.
Craig
It sells 1500 a month. Should it be taken seriously for any reason?
Because nobody drives (or buys) the Veracruz doesn't mean anything.
Why would anybody think it is anything more than Highlander competitor Hyundai is willing to pay someone to put over? :confuse:
If somebody doesn't drive the Veracruz, there's a very good reason why. No one is all hot and bothered to test drive a Hyundai.
If you have to ask, you wouldn't understand.
DrFill
If you look at the Veracruz in the Limited trim, you can easily make a case for calling this a near-luxury SUV. Can you call it a luxury SUV? Depends on each person's perception.
For me, I think I would need to look at the whole experience, not just the car. Does the dealer provide good service with loaner cars? If the car breaks down, will I get free tow service to the Hyundai dealer? Will I receive trip interruption reimbursement? It's going the extra mile to make me feel appreciated as a customer that will influence my opinion on whether my car is a "luxury" vehicle or not.
As an example, last year I purchased a used BMW for about $25K. A few weeks later the battery died on me. BMW Roadside Assistance provided me with a jump start. I drove to my dealer, and was greeted with a courtesy BMW loaner car for the 3-day weekend. Because I was still under the original warranty, the battery was replaced at no cost. Maybe this isn't one of the best examples, but it is still fresh in my mind, and it helps make me loyal to BMW.
Maybe Hyundai provides the same level of service? I don't know. However, here's my issue with this debate for the Veracruz: Probably over 50% of the Veracruz models sold here in the US are GLS trim with cloth seats. From this perspective, I tend to place the Veracruz in the same category as the CX-9, the Outlook, and the new Highlander. I suspect the new Pilot will also join this club upon its arrival. All these SUVs can look and feel quite luxurious when fully loaded, but in the real world, most are sold without many luxury touches.
It sells 1500 a month. Should it be taken seriously for any reason?
Because nobody drives (or buys) the Veracruz doesn't mean anything.
Why would anybody think it is anything more than Highlander competitor Hyundai is willing to pay someone to put over?
If somebody doesn't drive the Veracruz, there's a very good reason why. No one is all hot and bothered to test drive a Hyundai."
Fill, You lost all credibility with me with those statements. If you haven't even driven the Veracruz your just spewing noise on the net. A regular Hyundai basher!
Craig
Agreed!
Anyway, I have driven the RX350/400h (by the way, I saw 10 today as taxis), the Veracruz, and many other CUVs. In short, I can certainly see why previous owners of other models (i.e. RX) are now Veracruz owners. But, what do I know? A Yugo, by some standards here, seems better than a Hyundai, but, without merits or qualifications.
So, I'll leave everyone here with an excerpt of a Veracruz review. This is the overall take:
Worthy of a shopper's — even a luxury shopper's — short list.
The Azera has been sold mostly in Limited trims, and Ultimate package, for good measure. It seems that trend is continuing for the Veracruz, preliminary results have shown SE and Limited trims but I am waiting for more additional info as the Veracruz matures into its first full-year (still has only been on the market for a short few months).
As for the roadside assistance, Hyundai owners can provide a better report than I do but per website, it's very comprehensive:
5 YEAR / UNLIMITED MILES
24-HOUR ROADSIDE ASSISTANCE Covers towing (including accident-related), lock-out, flat tire, and battery failure.
Covers vehicle, regardless if current owner is original or subsequent owner.
Includes the following full roadside amenities:
- Towing for inoperable disablements, including accidents
- Battery jump starts
- Change flat tire
- Lock-out
- Out of gas
- Trip interruption
Of course, BMW has really good roadside assistance. I should know
Joe don't you understand yet that all the praise and good press Hyundai has been receiving is from paid off publications with an ax to grind with the establishment? Fill has educated me and now I'm convinced its all a scam.
Gee, to think that world renown car magazines who have been in the business for decades drive the cars and review them. Fill says you dont have to drive them to form a credible opinion meanwhile those who have driven them are clueless.
Motortrend, arguably the worlds most respected automotive publication on the planet compared the Veracruz to the RX350. If you don't call that "Comparable" this is like speaking to a wall.
Please, those of us who have actually driven a Veracruz or Azera please contribute to this conversation. Those who haven't go drive one and come back and then speak from experience not speculation.
Craig
So we're all square on that.
No one has answered how a $27k 7-passenger SUV compares with a $40k 5-passenger SUV.
Let's compare a Tahoe to a Mercedes GL
And 350Z to a Corvettes.
DrFill
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/suvs/112_0707_hyundai_veracruz_lexus_rx350/
Craig
I couldn't agree more. Any car rag that names the Corvair as their "car of the year" has my vote, too! :lemon:
http://www.hyundaiusa.com/vehicle/comparison/detailed_comparison.aspx?vehicle=Ve- racruz&year=2008&trimid=22909|21643
Hence why MT pitted the two vehicles against one another, and not some other random SUV.
Enjoy!
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=109613
Craig
Let me level with you here, the people here and many more elsewhere having driven the Veracruz and say it is comparable to the RX for a reason. In no way we are knocking the Lexus, but rather praising the quality product from Hyundai, and being on-par with the RX. While I understand this is hard for you to comprehend, it is the reality; it's like a knack that stays with you, no matter how you try to reason it otherwise.
Ask yourself this question back in time, I don't know if you are older enough, but:
How can this small Japanese POS compare to the _____ [insert domestic model and make]?
Crazy, ain't it?