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1. No, because it's Hyundai and everyone knows Hyundai can't do anything right, and anyone who says they can is an idiot, or was paid to say it.
2. Yes, but it will take time and flawless execution against entrenched competition.
3. Maybe. Still too soon to tell, since Hyundai actually hasn't sold a true "luxury" vehicle in the U.S. yet, although the Veracruz is close.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8924940@N06/
This will take should through the rest of the lineup.
Let me know if you require additional.
As for the rest, just like the above, we've been through before many times. Tell me you are not just recycling them again and again. Figure them out, read the story behind the story, not just what's on the surface.
Still pre-production photos so I will reserve my judgment when the US production model is released. So far I am very impressed.
This link has some interesting sales information. Can Hyundai make it in the "luxury" market?
I've removed a number of posts tonight because they were off topic (or uncivil, or both). Let's not turn this into yet another "Toyota vs. X" topic and focus instead on whether or not Hyundai has a shot at entering the luxury market.
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How can they enter luxury markets, when they struggle with their own competition? If every vehicle they produce is easily eclipsed?
They have proven very little, except that they want what Lexus has, and may not want to do the work to get there.
Their "Dollar General" image needs to change, and that starts with their core lineup, before they get to luxury status. :confuse:
And their core lineup struggles in this market, and I'm being kind. :sick:
This is very relevant to this conversation. Luxury success is based on automaker history as much as any other factor.
DrFill
They have proven they know how to build great, reliable cars. Their lineup of Sonata, Santa Fe, Azera, Veracruz, and (soon) Genesis is excellent. If you compare them with cars in their price range, their competition isn't even close. It's obvious the Hyundai name has not been widely accepted by the general public yet. That was also true of Toyota at 1 time, and will change when the cars are discovered. If you would rename Toyota "Potato", their cars would still be great, but sales would drop. The public is just now learning to pronounce the Hyundai name correctly. That's a big step, and it will snowball.
What do you mean "they don't want to work to get there"? Isn't building great cars with the best warranty in the industry, fine dealerships, and roadside assistance enough? Do you want them to take 40 years to accomplish what they can do in 20?
I keep saying, "the people" will let us know. In the meantime Lexus is on track for selling 100K RXs this year. There must be a reason those idiotic Lexus customers shell out over $10K more per vehicle than the better overall, comparably equipped Veracruz.
Before one says Hyundai is a manufacturer of luxury cars, rather than a manufacturer of a car with nice appointments, they need to look at what the 100,000 new RX owners this year saw in Lexus and not in Hyundai.
To me Hyundai is competing against Buick, not Lexus. (And I'm sure some Lexus customers defected to Buick)
And just so you know, it has been a down market for quite a bit of time now. Most lines in almost every automaker are down, as compared to last year. This is just not a good time to sell cars - consumers are now only buying becuase they need a car, and not because they want a car. That is the position of the current car market, which has been greatly affected by the US economy.
Other factors to consider, which I have suggested for you to research, and not read what's on the surface: consider how many times Hyundai has had to deal with strikes, consider the strong Won, and many other factors which have plagued production, leading to an unbalance shift in supply/demand.
That said, Hyundai still has a long way to go but if everyone posts like you do, Hyundai might as well be out of business NOW (hint hint a lot of your info is way off-base).
Time has changed, and for the better.
And the same unfonded Japanese trash talks are the same talks we are seeing here - ignorant and narrow-minded. There.
Fixed, and I proved it to you earlier. You with your Aztec affections
I keep saying, "the people" will let us know. In the meantime Lexus is on track for selling 100K RXs this year. There must be a reason those idiotic Lexus customers shell out over $10K more per vehicle than the better overall, comparably equipped Veracruz.
Before one says Hyundai is a manufacturer of luxury cars, rather than a manufacturer of a car with nice appointments, they need to look at what the 100,000 new RX owners this year saw in Lexus and not in Hyundai.
To me Hyundai is competing against Buick, not Lexus. (And I'm sure some Lexus customers defected to Buick)
No one is saying Hyundai is a manufacturer of luxury cars, at least I haven't.
1) Hyundai has a premium CUV that compares favorably when pitted against the RX.
2) There have been customers going from RX to Veracruz. Are those "the people" you are talking about?
3) And Buick (Enclave) too, for good measure.
Again, no one is knocking on the RX. The VCs, Enclaves and others have just raised the bar. It's good for competition and ultimately, the buyers
"The People" are very familiar with the well seasoned Lexus brand name, and correctly associate it with fine cars. They are not as familiar with the newer Hyundai brand, or worse, they incorrectly associate it with the dated perception that they do not make fine cars. People are very cautious, and slow to change. There's no rushing it, it will take time. Toyota took 40 years. Be fair and give Hyundai 25.
I believe if the cars were compared in an unbiased fashion... all badges removed... I bet you would be surprised at how the driving public would rate Veracruz vs the RX350. That shows how powerful suggestion is, and the value of an established badge. That's a shame, because it can result in excellence going unrewarded.
Granted, I haven't read all the posts here. Nevertheless, I didn't really see anybody trash a modern hyundai car here. But projecting hyundai is/becomes a luxury brand itself, is doing a disservice to hyundai itself. I have seen so many businesses failed because of over-thinking and/or over-reaching. Understanding what you are capable of and sticking to it.
And the same can be said for Hyundai, in even shorter time.
What is that unique advantage point for hyundai today?
On a lot people's mind it is the superior warranty, but as someone having seen auto industry from the inside, the ability to do well in many categories. As for the Chinese (and might well add the Indians), I have seen the progress and improvements (i.e. tour the plants, sat in meeting with the execs on their plans), but they are still way off from making headways in the US market.
Nevertheless, I didn't really see anybody trash a modern hyundai car here.
You answered it yourself:
I haven't read all the posts here.
http://conversationstarter.hbsp.com/2007/04/hyundai_joins_the_luxury_club.html
Harvard Business Online
I agree, but the Honda Pilot with leather seats also compares against the RX.
2) There have been customers going from RX to Veracruz. Are those "the people" you are talking about?
Yes people go from Lexus to an other brand and another brand to Lexus. So? Are you saying you are suprised that consumers might go to a different manufacturer for their reasons?
3) And Buick (Enclave) too, for good measure.
Again, no one is knocking on the RX. The VCs, Enclaves and others have just raised the bar. It's good for competition and ultimately, the buyers
No one is knocking the Veracruz, but like the Honda Pilot it is not in the same league as the RX. This year 100,000 Lexus customers will shell out more money than the competition charges for what they perceive to be a better value.
http://www.luxuryinstitute.com/
Are you sure about that?
Regardless, I am certainly glad to hear Hyundai's premium CUV does compare favorably when pitted against the RX
Are you saying you are suprised that consumers might go to a different manufacturer for their reasons?
Of course not. Like you said, people switch brands all for the time, and most do for good reasons. I was just telling you the fact there are people coming from RXs to other similar models, which some people wouldn't want to admit. Still, I should mention Lexus owners are very loyal, and for good reasons too - scoring in the 60%+ range in repeat buyers survey; Hyundai ain't too shabby either, 50%+ range - IIRC, both are in the top 10.
There's reason for this longer warranty, because 1. The tinted image due to their earlier products; 2. Their quality is still not on par yet, as illustrated by JD survey recently.
In my books, longer warranty is just opposite to someone's confidence to the product. Is it good for consumer? you bet, but this is not the discussion point here. (we are discussing whether hyundai can becomes a luxury brand, are we?)
As for the Chinese, well, I am not in the car business, not even in the manufecture business. But in today's global economy, one can hire a italion design studio do the styling, buy a engine from RR, a trany from Boshy(?), and son on and so on. I am not surpirsed if in one year's time, a chinese made car enters into the US market.
Why they haven't? Well, the us market is very tough to make money while the chinese domestic market is probably has the highest profit margins to a car company. That's why. As an old saying, go where money lies.
A side note, I couldn't help but think, based on the last 2-3 car I have been driving. half of the car is car but the other half is software/technology. It is thus far, my unqualified opinion, is even either for the likes of chinese/indians to catch up.
If you are talking about the quality surveys from JD Power, then Hyundai actually did really well the past few years.
Well, the us market is very tough to make money
DING DING DING DING
Here'sthe quote form the NY Times:
And in J.D. Power's most recent study of long-term reliability, which many in the industry consider to be a more important barometer, the Hyundai brand ranks near the bottom of the industry and Kia is dead last.
Here's the link
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9803E0DB163DF93AA15757C0A9629C8B6- 3
2) It was you who said quality, and not reliability. A big difference, keep in mind.
Hyundai's reliabilty, at least according to JD Power, is still below average. That said, just as they've had a tremendous improving trend in the quality department, I believe the reliability will follow. Keep in mind the JD Power reliabilty measure models of 3 year old vehicles, for example, the 2007 JDP VDS measured models from 2004.
It will be interesting to see how Hyundai does in 2009/10 VDS, given they finished very well in the IQS in the past few years, espeically 2006 (#3 behind Porsche and Lexus). Hopefully the initial assessment will continue in the long-term.
I'm sure. I'm knocking the idea the Veracruz is a luxury vehicle. I'm not knocking the idea people might find it to be attractive. If you compare an S2000 with a Ferrari, you might conclude the S2000 is a better value with 90% of the performance at a bargain compared to a Ferrari. The same type of logic is being applied here, but the Veracruz is not a luxury vehicle. And Hyundai is far from being a luxury manufacturer.
As I said, I am just posting a unqualfied opinion here. Reading from your post, it seems you are an industry insider, and thus far, your post has much more values than I do.
As for my own car buying, calling me narrow-minded or what, I just wouldn't consider hyundai at this time due to my earlier expereinces and my stubbornness. At this time of my life, I do have the luxury of doing that. But it can change and who knows, at one time point, I may have to consider a hyundai. Just in my mind, hyundai is not a luxury brand, at least not yet.
I do appologize that I posted a outdated article here, my fault. (I remember that, a few months back, I read an article in the NY Times "Auto" section and basically, similar type of comments/statements. Therefore, I just did a quick google and didn't chack the date of the article.)
Don't read too much these product reviews here. I bet it accounts heavily in auther's mind that an "outrageous" statements sell more newspaper/magazines and/or making a name for himself. I wouldn't knock myself death for such a statement.
2) There have been customers going from RX to Veracruz. Are those "the people" you are talking about?
Doesn't mean anything either. One's financial situation can change in a few years, or one shouldn't buy a Lexas in the first place. (IMOP, one who considers a LEXAS should ask himself this question first? Can I pay the car with Cash and afterwards, my life quality reamins the same? But, that just me.) As I alluded to earlier, too many of us, me truly included, pretend we are wealthy and in fact, we are not.
Again, I've never said the Veracruz is a luxury vehicle to begin with, it's darn close if anything. It's hard b/c it crosses several segments but I am calling it premium which is very fair, IMO.
Also, who has called Hyundai a luxury maker? No one has called Hyundai a luxury manufactuer here, yet
I agree with you on the second statement, however. Except I was replying to something competely different.
Again, my unqualified opinion, driving a car for a few days or even for a few months is completely different to own a car. And for many, car has become integral part of lives. Thus, coming to admitting somebody (here, it is something) to our closed family circle, well, one will put much thoughts into it.
The comparison in and of itself is valid, the assertion they are comparable cars is laughable. As I showed earlier an S2000 compares with a Ferrari, but they are not comparable cars. Yet some could make the case that potential Ferrari owners purchased an S2000 instead.
"Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?"
No one has called Hyundai a luxury manufactuer here, yet
Thanks for clarifying. I forgot the name of the forum I was particpating in.
I also haven't driven the S2000 either. Are going to tell me it's an equivalent car for less money than a Ferrari if two so-called automotive journalists put it in print?
There is no harm comparing Hyundais line up with Lexus (and others) 30-45k cars and trucks. You keep going on not believing the comparison with the RX & the VC but they are comparable spec wise, design wise and from the review they drive alike, except the VCs engine is quieter.
The point thats being made is the RX being a luxury SUV, and pretty much the benchmark, and Hyundais attempt to make a similiar model that actually comes extremely close to it is no simple feat. They should be commended on their accomplishment in this regard.
Also the fact that some of the posters here "just know" that Hyundai isn't as good, whom never drove the newer Sonata, Santa Fe, Veracruz or Azera really have no basis for their statements.
Since you like absurd comparisons (not the RX v. VC) here is an article from Edmunds of a Kia v. Ferrari.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=122612
But back on topic, the Veracruz compares very well with the RX in many categories. At the very least and overall, it is on par with the RX. In some categories, it actually does it better.
Your post to me are personally disrespectful, so I'm not talking to you. :mad:
Hopefully you will take the links, the education, not from me, but from 3rd parties, and learn something about how the world perceives Hyundai, then move forward.
Hopefully, you will learn something from this forum.
You just want to disagree with me, and ignore facts, and objective data.
Your posts reflect that. :confuse:
DrFill
It may well be an RX400h is out of reach to a lot of Veracruz buyers also. So what's the point? People may settle for a Veracruz and believe they got the best thing for their money.
"The point thats being made is the RX being a luxury SUV, and pretty much the benchmark, and Hyundais attempt to make a similiar model that actually comes extremely close to it is no simple feat"
That's the point of debate, how close is close. A Honda Pilot with leather seats and DVD also comes close.
"Since you like absurd comparisons (not the RX v. VC) here is an article from Edmunds of a Kia v. Ferrari."
Check out the SRT8 to RS8 comparison. The SRT8 is almost as fast for less than half the price.
SRT8 engines are nice, I would like to test drive the 2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT8.
Well, just floor it on a straight run actually.