Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

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Comments

  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    They also routinely disassemble competitor's cars and reverse-engineer features. This is common in the automotive world, so it's not just Hyundai.

    Completely agree with you !!!! :)

    This also saves them R&D costs passed on to the consumer. I look at Hyundai, like Perrigo a store brand OTC drug producer. They copy and are able to sell their generic equivalent which is the same at a much cheaper price.

    Hyundai, will spend some R&D on personal touches but not nearly as much as their more expensive competitors. The bottom line is Hyundai, is the luxury brand for the buyer who is careful with his/hers money. They don't need a badge to "prove" status or net worth. ;)

    -Rocky
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    I don't believe it's a new emblem to replace the current one, but more so an anniversary keepsake. I know it's going to be used on a lot of the marketing materials.

    IIRC, the current Equus luxury sedan in the domestic market has used the V-shaped emblem at least on the steering wheel, which has also been caught during the BH testings. There were some rumors that might be the new emblem on the BH steering wheel.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "It will give you some idea that Hyundai buyers are comparing Hyundai to the Japanese brands, in some cases (Azera, Veracruz) the luxury brands, and they are choosing Hyundai."

    Hyundai sold 250K total cars in the US ytd, Honda sold how many Accords ytd + Toyota Camrys ytd. IIRC it's a big number. That is one indication of how America feels.

    Trying to extrapolate the discussions of a few Hyundai buyers in a forum, is like trying to predict the reliability of the G35 by reading through the Infiniti G35 Maintenance and Solutions discussion.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    It's more like 358.4K year-to-date, but you are arguing semantics anyway, of backy's point.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    If you are going to quote sales figures, at least make an effort to quote them accurately. Hyundai's sales figures are easily available on the web, and they have sold a lot more than 250k cars YTD.

    You are comparing a company that has sold in the U.S. for a little over 20 years to one that has sold here for 50 years. Apparently the fact that Hyundai has more than quintupled its U.S. sales in the past nine years is not enough for you. Nor that Hyundai/Kia group sold more cars last year than Honda, Nissan, Chrysler, or Daimler. If that is any indication of how America, and the world, feels about Hyundai, I'd say it's a pretty positive showing.

    Maybe if more people would actually go check out what Hyundai has to offer instead of relying on inaccurate or old information to form their opinions, they would sell as many cars as you think they should.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    You're right I did quote them wrong, so let me say it this way more accurately. American Honda sold almost 1.1 million vehicles ytd, Toyota has sold app. 2 million vehicles to date, with Acura breaking some sales records.

    Hyundai is up against some stiff competition, both in the non-luxury and the new to be luxury front.

    If sales are any indication of the way America votes with it's dollars, it's going to be a very tough road ahead for Hyundai. While some may believe the Genesis is a 5 series beater at a fraction of the cost and the Veracruz is an RX beater at a fraction of the cost, there will some commparisons ...future sales figures will be there to tell the truth.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Why not just be blunt and say if one's not selling at Toyota/Honda pace, then one's not successful.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    For me personally, it's simple.

    1) I don't own shares/stakes in any of the automakers

    2) I don't work for any of the automakers

    3) I buy cars that best suit my needs, not which company I want to support for so they can have x additional units sold

    This whole "Hyundai can/can't compete with xxxx" discussion really doesn't interest me on a personal level. I don't have any benefit other than sharing a few rounds with some of you guys, which still means almost nothing since this isn't the board room at an automaker. In other words, as a consumer, product > the well-being of a company
  • mpuzachmpuzach Member Posts: 635
    You hit the nail on the head, Joe. This whole discussion is getting ridiculous. As far as I'm concerned, it's all moot until the Genesis comes out.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Mercedes-Benz's YTD sales are only about half of what Hyundai's are in the U.S. Mazda's are 50% less than Hyundai's. Maybe Hyundai can succeed in the U.S. by picking on sales low-lifes like Mercedes, at the high end, and Mazda, at the low end, for those buyers who are impressed by sales numbers as a key purchase criterion.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    You keep missing the point. The Japanese are established in the US. I do not believe "America" feels the same as Hyundai and maybe with good reason. Hyundai wants to enter the luxury market and some journalists have proclaimed that BMW and Lexus pack their bags and go home (my distorted interpetation from listening how the Genesis is 5 series beater and the Veracruz is an RX beater), doesn't make it happen nor does it make it the truth. Nor does it make it Hyundai bashing.

    Being a luxury manfacturer is not the same as producing a vehicle with a lot of toys and nice leather.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Mercedes is a luxury manufacturer that sells vehicles 10 times the price of an average Hyundai with world leading horsepower at the top. I don't expect the sales volumes in the US to be comparable.

    But again the topic is: Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai? It has taken Lexus years to attempt to sell an very expensive vehicle. Mercedes, Porsche (I'll leave ultra-luxury out of this) could debut another high-end vehicle in two minutes selling for $250K, they have a cachet like no other. That is the luxury market that Hyundai wants to enter.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Again, you missed what Backy tried to bring across. Everyone knows Mercedes and the cars they make, but that's not what Backy was trying to say.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    And you and backy missed what I was trying to say. We have a huge difference of opinion, no use trying to beat a dead horse.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    All of your recent posts were filled with sales, sales, sales this, sales that, Toyota has xxx sales, Honda has xxx sales - yeah - we got it, crystal clear.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Wait, so now my own shopping preferences = I missed the point? How does that work?

    It really doesn't matter if America feels the same as Hyundai, that's not the point. I didn't post what I posted to represent Hyundai's view, rather, I posted it as a representation of my own view. It's about how I feel, the car that suits me the best, whatever the brand which may be. I listed out my personal preferences, and if they are different than America's opinion, then so be it. The world would be boring place if everyone had the same opinion, and frankly drove the same car, has the same wardrobe, etc etc

    Thanks for reading.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    You hit the nail on the head, Joe. This whole discussion is getting ridiculous. As far as I'm concerned, it's all moot until the Genesis comes out.

    Mmmmm... maybe it's not moot. Think about the last 4 Hyundai releases. They really nailed the Sonata, Azera, Santa Fe, and Veracruz. I have no reason to think they won't keep the trend going, and the Genesis will be awesome.
  • mpuzachmpuzach Member Posts: 635
    "Mmmmm... maybe it's not moot. Think about the last 4 Hyundai releases. They really nailed the Sonata, Azera, Santa Fe, and Veracruz. I have no reason to think they won't keep the trend going, and the Genesis will be awesome."

    I'm in 100% agreement with you. I only meant that the Genesis will be their first attempt at a luxury vehicle. I'll wait to see it and drive it before I try to convince anyone whether or not Hyundai can compete in the luxury car market. What's the point of evaluating their ability to compete when they haven't even brought their first luxury entry to market yet?
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Hyundai wants to enter the luxury market and some journalists have proclaimed that BMW and Lexus pack their bags and go home (my distorted interpetation from listening how the Genesis is 5 series beater and the Veracruz is an RX beater), doesn't make it happen nor does it make it the truth.

    The truth is the Hyundai Genesis, is both a BMW 5 series and Lexus GS/LS killer. Yes, they both should pack their bags and go home. It's not a distorted view but merely a fact. ;)

    Being a luxury manfacturer is not the same as producing a vehicle with a lot of toys and nice leather.

    Nor is being a luxury manufactor a carwith a fancy emblem with fancy commercials. I as I told you many times in the ELLPS forum that a badge does not make a luxury car to all people. I know many people buy a Lexus ES series just to obtain the prestigous badge when all it really is a wooded and leather lined Toyota Camry. I'd be willing to bet you at least DrFill, would go to bat defending it as a luxury car. I'm not knocking the car as they are nice but come-on is it really a luxury car ???? Is the Honda Accord, reskinned Acura TL, really a luxury car ????? Just because they have a badge on them does't make em one IMHO. I think it's a lot more important to have the gadget's, premium leather, power, upgraded warranty, service, etc, to fit the criteria. Hyundai, is meeting all of those objectives. ;)

    -Rocky
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Think about the last 4 Hyundai releases. They really nailed the Sonata, Azera, Santa Fe, and Veracruz.

    Actually, the last four Hyundai releases were (in backwards order) the Veracruz, Elantra, Entourage, and Santa Fe. I think Hyundai did a fine job on the Veracruz and Santa Fe, and the Entourage is a good effort also considering it's Hyundai's first minivan for the U.S. (although really a Kia design). The Elantra is a good car too, although a couple of hammer strokes short of "nailed." But IMO Hyundai will have to execute better on the Genesis than they have for any previous launch--expectations are higher. Many people will be watching closely, waiting for Hyundai to make any small misstep. They will need to sweat every single detail for Genesis and other luxury models.
  • mpuzachmpuzach Member Posts: 635
    ...to what degree the Genesis is built to a price point vs. to be a true luxury car. We'll be able to tell a lot from interior materials choices, fit and finish, and small details. If they truly intend it to compete as a luxury car...

    It will not have fake wood.
    It will not use a lot of cheap, hard plastics in the interior.
    It will have excellent interior lighting including "ambient" lighting, LED instrument lighting, F+R reading lamps, illuminated door openers, backlighting for ALL switchgear.
    It will offer front and rear heated seats.
    It will offer adaptive cruise control.
    It will have an extremely quiet cabin at high speeds.
    It will have pivoting bi-xenon headlights.
    It will offer more than one type of suspension, allowing buyers to choose the one that best meets their needs.
    The interior will feature a high grade of leather.
    It will have full Bluetooth compatibility.
    It will be available in colors not shared with other Hyundais.
    It will have an exquisitely smooth and powerful powertrain.

    If indeed the Genesis turns out to be a legitimate luxury car, people will buy it regardless of price rather than because of price. Time will tell.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    If indeed the Genesis turns out to be a legitimate luxury car, people will buy it regardless of price rather than because of price. Time will tell.

    Sadly, I disagree. Yes, a few astute buyers will steal themselves a new Genesis, but most will not even be smart enough to research and test drive the car. It may get rolling in year 2 or 3, but I think sales for year 1 will be mostly Hyundai owners moving up.
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    Not sure what "nailed" means in your world, but producing a good product that not many people buy does not equate to "nailing' it. The Azera is close to being a flop. The Sonata maxes out at 15,000 sales a month. The Santa Fe seems to be a success, but the Veracruz is another slow mover.

    I thought "nailing" it was supposed to be a positive thing.

    Put me in the "sales are everything" modifier (non-rental sales to be more specific) to be considered for the "nailed it" award.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    This whole discussion is getting ridiculous. As far as I'm concerned, it's all moot until the Genesis comes out.

    Not so fast - I've noticed that the Azera is exactly the same car as the Sonata - with better trim, a wood steering wheel, and a little nicer dash. While this isn't unique to Hyundai, that car can't compete even with Acura in driving refinement. If it's what you want for the money, great - but it doesn't satisfy me. The Genesis needs to be RWD and available with a V-8 to play with the big boys. Are they going to be that way? If not, Hyundai will play with Lincoln, in the MKZ arena.....and maybe they'll win there.
  • mpuzachmpuzach Member Posts: 635
    "The Genesis needs to be RWD and available with a V-8 to play with the big boys. Are they going to be that way?"

    Yes on both counts. It will be RWD and a V8 that according to Hyundai puts out "well over 300 horsepower" (rumored but not confirmed to be 380) will be one of the two engines offered.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Then it will be worth a look for sure. In the end, it'll all be about the NVH thing in the Luxury Boat Segment. Cadillac had better be worried.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Not sure what "nailed" means in your world, but producing a good product that not many people buy does not equate to "nailing' it.

    I didn't want to imply the Hyundai lineup was a smashing sales success. All that I was saying is they are very nice cars. Me and others here have recently said that Hyundai will have to be patient and work through the outdated perception their cars are not reliable. I think sales is a lagging indicator of quality, and will improve when the buying public catch on.

    High sales numbers do not guarantee a good car, nor does a good car necessarily guarantee high sales. I think plenty of examples of that can be cited both ways.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    That the Sonata maxes out at 15,000 sales per month is not really a bad thing. It's limited by production capacity. Add the nearly 10,000 Santa Fes sold per month, and that's all the Alabama plant can handle at full capacity (300,000 per year). Right now Sonata sales are below 15,000 per month, but considering incentives on the '08s are historically low (just a $1000 general rebate in most parts of the country) and strong competition has arrived since the Sonata debuted (new Camry, Fusion/Milan, Aura, new Accord), the sales dip is understandable. If sales don't perk up some with the refreshed '09 Sonata, that will spell trouble for Hyundai.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I've noticed that the Azera is exactly the same car as the Sonata - with better trim, a wood steering wheel, and a little nicer dash.

    That's like saying the TL is exactly the same car as the Accord. The Azera is bigger inside and out compared to the Sonata, has a totally different body and interior, a bigger and more powerful engine, and many more standard and optional features (e.g. 8 airbags and alloys standard, memory seats and nav optional). They are much different cars.

    But I agree the Azera is not a luxury car--it's a near-luxury car, meant to compete with the likes of Avalon and Lucerne rather than Acura. The RWD, V8 Genesis will be a direct competitor to Acura et. al.
  • cobrazeracobrazera Member Posts: 352
    Not to mention that if the two cars are driven back-to-back, as I did, the Azera is much more quiet, smooth, and refined than the Sonata.
    Funny how many Hyundai experts there are in this thread, most of whom have never sampled their current product line.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Agreed on both counts, and may I add the second point is the perfect example of the term oxymoron. Anyway, to tie back with the subject, if the Sonata and Azera (car line since we are talking about another car) are any indication and progress, I'd expect the BH to be even more smoother, quieter, and refined. Anyone having driven the recent Hyundai products would know their NVH are very very good, actually scratch the H (harshness), since that's subjective; the N (noise) and V (vibration) have been top notch, relatively speaking.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I agree, with the exception of "suspension noise." I'm not quite sure what that means, but that comment pops up in some reviews of Hyundais, including the Sonata. I've driven about a dozen current-gen Sonatas and I've never heard a "suspension noise". I've heard tire noise on expansion strips and the like, but that's about it. Otherwise smooth and quiet as you said. But they'll need to do something about that "suspension noise" (whatever it is) on their luxury models like the Genesis.

    Does anyone know if Hyundai has ever produced a RWD car with an independent rear suspension? Does the Equus have that, for example?
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    I don't believe so. The Equus is FWD; the Dynasty as well, which there are talks it would be eventually replaced by a LWB of the BH, with even more powerful engines from the Tau family.

    Anyway, the only RWD Hyundai had to date, which sold very well by the way, the Pony, and I don't believe it had independent read suspension back then ;)
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Let's talk what we know. The key features on the production-ready concept version should carry over to the production version:

    Advanced adaptive cruise control
    All of Hyundai standard safety features
    Heat / cool seats
    High Intensity Discharge (HID) headlamps with adaptive leveling
    Push-button start
    Navigation with backup camera
    Electric parking brake
    Bluetooth technology
    USB / Auxiliary input jack
    HD Radio™ Receiver
    XM Satellite Radio® · Infinity® Discrete Surround Audio System

    It will offer more than one type of suspension, allowing buyers to choose the one that best meets their needs.

    There was a spy shot, and on the Nav screen, it showed the leveling of the car, which seemed to indicate something along the lines of height adjustable suspension - we shall wait and see since it was a Korean spec mule.

    I've also heard talks of XM NavTraffic but that is remained to be seen. Here is the HD radio press release:

    Hyundai To Offer HD Radio™ Receiver On Future Premium Sports Sedan

    NEW YORK, April 4, 2007 – Hyundai will continue to stay on the leading edge of automotive technology by offering HD Radio on its rear-wheel drive premium sports sedan scheduled for introduction in 2008.

    “In 2005, Hyundai broke an industry barrier by announcing it would be the first automaker to standardize satellite radio in all of our vehicles,” said John Krafcik, vice president of Strategic Planning and Product Development, Hyundai Motor America. “By adding the option of HD Radio reception to our new premium sports sedan we will continue to provide Hyundai customers with the latest digital technology to enhance the driving experience.”

    More than 1200 AM and FM stations, available to approximately 80 percent of the U.S. population, are using HD Radio technology to transmit digital audio and data to their listeners.

    Consumer benefits of HD Radio broadcasting include:

    * Across the country, 550 HD2 multicast channels on the FM dial offer additional, subscription-free content that can only be heard with an HD Radio receiver. These channels feature fresh new music and news formats, showcase young artists and local bands, air non-English language programming, and more.
    * Crystal-clear, static-free reception
    * CD-quality FM stations
    * FM-stereo quality sound AM stations
    * Text display on an LCD screen including: artist names, song titles, weather and traffic alerts, school closings, sports scores, etc.
    * Best of all, there are no fees associated with HD Radio programming.


    http://www.ibiquity.com/press_room/news_releases/2007/1008

    Currently only BMW offers HD radio as factory-installed options; Jaguar and Hyundai to join the party soon. Ford has it as dealer-installed options, I believe.
  • mpuzachmpuzach Member Posts: 635
    I'm very encouraged...things like heated/cooled seats, HD radio, adaptive cruise control, auto-leveling xenons, and back-up camera suggest that Hyundai is serious about this car. I'm eagerly awaiting its arrival. Thanks for the info. ;)
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    If sales don't perk up some with the refreshed '09 Sonata, that will spell trouble for Hyundai.

    I doubt the refresh will do much for the Sonata syndrome. The sales seems pegged at a number well below that of a CamCord, or even the Altima - not a real sales threat. The Sonata and Santa Fe tho seem to be the 2 vehicles that are putting Hyundai back on the map for American car buyers and opening their eyes to Hyundai.

    All the better for the Genesis. The RWD format should be a hit for Hyundai. They'll sell more of them than Azeras.
  • colloquorcolloquor Member Posts: 482
    I know of three local people, myself included, who are waiting for the 2009 Sonata refresh prior to buying one. The center stack and dash are the primary reasons.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    The facelift looks to be a drastic one, inteior espeically, which is one of the few downsides. Exterior should remain mostly untouched, IMO

    image

    image

    image
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Word from Edmunds.com etc. says that the 2009 Sonata will have a Genesis-inspired front end. I don't think that's a bad thing; the current front end is OK but a little plain. Making the Sonata look more like the Genesis will help bump up the perception of the Sonata I think. I hope the rear is left as-is.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    I actually like the cleaner look of the exterior which is why I don't want much to be changed but I do see your point :)
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Anyway, the only RWD Hyundai had to date, which sold very well by the way, the Pony

    And the Terracan, but that wasn't IRS either.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Terracan is FWD IIRC

    Was it RWD at some point during its life cycle?
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Everything I've seen suggests it's RWD, since it's basically a Hyundai Land Cruiser. There is also a diesel version.
  • tenpin288tenpin288 Member Posts: 804
    Check this site out. It's Hyundai's world web site and there is a lot of info about their vehicles and the company there, including info on the Terracan.

    Hyundai World-wide ;)
  • scbobscbob Member Posts: 167
    I drove Lexus several times, throughly researched it and contacted six dealers about it. It still came in number four on my list of potential cars.
    I am often criticized by others for being too "particular" and I am not "cheap," just believe in the old American philosophy of getting what I pay for.
    Actually I have written to Lexus and told them why I did not buy their cars without considering the cost at all. I would like nothing better than to find a Lexus GS or BMW 5 series or MB in a couple of years that provides what I want in a car, not considering cost. None did this year.
    For me, the Lexus did not meet my needs and its chief attribute was an L on the front. If you lived in Upstate SC, you would know what I mean.
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    I know of three local people, myself included, who are waiting for the 2009 Sonata refresh prior to buying one

    Kinda silly. So if they don't like that version, then what? Wait 3 more years til the porridge is just right?

    Hardly scientific aha as to why Sonata sales languish in neutral.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Interesting. I had thought it was 4WD with front wheel biased.
  • colloquorcolloquor Member Posts: 482
    No, it's not kinda silly. They, and I, like the car, except for the center stack, specifically the location of the HVAC vents and the radio. This is an extremely common complaint with the current Sonata. If it's my money, I prefer waiting. As in many things in life, "good things come to those who wait."

    If others are like me, this may be one of the reasons why the Sonata sales have stagnated. However, if there are those out there with your attitude, they can get super deals on the current version.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    - Of the 19 hours it takes to build a Lexus, 11 of them are spent in the paint shop.

    - Once out of the paint shop the cars are put under special lights where trained eyes look for imperfections - and around 10% don’t make it. They have to go back through the process.

    - Once the car is assembled it has to go through quality checks involving a staggering 1,400 items.

    -There are some 2.5 kilometres of quality check lines at Miyata [Japanese factory where the Lexus IS and ES are built] making sure that not only does everything work, but such things as the door closing speed and the sound of the seat and sunroof sliders are monitored.

    -Such attention to detail means that currently around 30% of the IS sports saloons and RX sport utility vehicles are rejected by the quality police and have to go back for treatment.


    Source: The Passionate Pursuit

    That plus the level of customer service they offer worth the price difference? Heck yeah in my book. ;)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Only if the results are a lot better than what Hyundai achieves with its highly automated factories, using hundreds of precise robots (their own robots, actually), and 900 quality engineers.

    On another topic, here's an idea of what Hyundai is doing to upgrade dealer service while getting ready for the Genesis launch:

    http://www.autoblog.com/2007/04/02/hyundai-brings-down-the-hammer-on-50-dealers/-
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