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Comments
I have never said I am "happy with Hyundai as a brand". Their image certainly has a way to go, as I have said repeatedly. That's because buyers are slow to notice improvements, not a reflection on the cars.
I am happy with their cars. Their cars measure up very well to anything in their price class. Hyundai does not cut corners. In fact, quite the opposite. I challenge you to find any car the same price as the Sonata, Azera, Santa Fe, Veracruz, and Genesis respectively that match their quality and equipment. I'll be waiting patiently.
Agreed the new name and dealer network would not be necessary. I like Joe97 and backy's solution with just a sight modification.
Premium badges... Azera, Veracruz, and Genesis for now, would only be sold by the most excellent dealerships. If the lesser dealerships want to sell the premium cars, they can upgrade any time to qualify. I would like that policy because, unlike separate dealerships, the top notch service would trickle down, and would benefit all Hyundai owners.
I believe if Toyota and Honda has marketed Lexus and Accura directly under their names, there would be little if any difference in sales. The cars made the name, the name didn't make the cars.
After all, it is still called a Hyundai.
You just can't make that leap into the present, can you?
Like I've said, it takes money to make money. The return "usually" is directly proportional to the investment.
You seem to be under the impression that Hyundai is a mom and pop operation. They are quite capable of making huge investments, if they believed it to be necessary.
Are you serious?
I guarantee that there is no difference. The only differnce is name and price.
Since the Accord costs way more than the Sonata, it should be better. A lot better. And is should be a lot better equipped.
In fact, it shouldn't even be fair to compare the 2 cars.
I don't take blanket guarantees like this seriously.
According to who? That is the same exact arguement G35/7 fans throw at BMW. There is much more than features/$$$.
I agree the two cars can't be compared, when Sonota comes up in refinement to the new Accord, I'll compare them. :surprise
BTW...seems to be a thinly veiled Honda bash? :confuse
I think the Accord would come out a little short in interior room.
You will never catch me bashing modern Honda, Toyota, or Nissan cars. I could be quite happy to own any of them.
I guess I see why we don't agree on this Hyundai luxury brand topic. I personally DO NOT think Lexus and Acura will be equally successful if Toyota and Honda have marketed with the same dealership network. Yes you are right that the cars made the brand but that's just part one. You forgot about part two which is: after the cars made the brand then the brand made the cars. That's why I said the "brand within brand" solution is good for short term but long term wise, Hyundai needs a separate dealer network.
You just can't make that leap into the present, can you?
Oh trust me, I believe Hyundai is an up and comer and IMO it is at the same level with Toyota and Honda on just about everything except reputation. However, I personally don't see that one day Hyundai will be competing in the luxury market with BMW, MB and Lexus. Mark my words, that ain't gonna happen, not with the Hyundai name/brand.
if they believed it to be necessary
Exactly, except what they believe in is not always right.
I don't see any signs that Hyundai wants to or needs to enter the luxury market, nor do I care.
The Genesis will be interesting. I don't think it will be accepted by the general public as a true luxury badge, but I may be wrong. If word gets out they are reliable and trendy, the floodgates could open. I say it probably won't happen. I think the Genesis will be relagated to a few savvy car buyers that take advantage of a stunningly good car at a stunningly low price.
Maybe you need to check the title of this board again...
Last time I checked, it was "Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?" If you don't really care then I think you are in the wrong place.
Seriously guys, this is not a "Hyundai fan club" nor "Let's support Hyundai" board. This is the place for car enthusiasts to talk about if Hyundai can succeed in the highly competitive luxury market. Not everyone here voicing a different view is "bashing on Hyundai". If I am Hyundai executives, I would frequent this board and check out all the different opinions.
Maybe even to the TL.
-Rocky
Lexus and Accura owners need not fear Hyundai. Hyundai isn't doing anything that will impact the Lexus and Accura negatively. The competition, what little there is, will only cause improvement in their already wonderful cars. (DrFill will set me straight if I'm wrong.)
Toyota and Honda are a different story. I think Hyundai will eventually take a fair sized bite out of their immense market. If and then that happens, maybe Hyundai's will have an opportunity to expand their premium/luxury line.
I don't think that it is at all. It's the disbelief a car company can step into a space it took years for other manufacturers to develop. That fact that a car company can produce a nice car with leather seats does not mean it's the equivalent of another car with leather seats costing more $$$. Sure there are a few who will readily admit to that. But that doesn't make it fact. To wit, the fact the Genesis is already beating the 5 series at it's own game is laughable at best.
I thought that was supposed to have happened already. That warning shot Sonata fired across the bow of the Camcord only served to push Camcord sales up. And the Sonata sales have totally stagnated at less than Malibu levels. The Veracruz was supposed to have opened the floodgates of buyers, but in a drought year I guess 1500 a month is a flood.
Whatever explanation you want to posit about the capacity of the plant, the upcoming refresh, global warming, WMDs - whatever - one day Hyundai will have to actually sell cars at a quicker pace then they are now to take a bite outta Honda or Toyota.
Yea Hyundai builds a decent vehicle, but masses of people buying them just isn't happening.
Why? Who knows? Who cares?
As a matter of fact, he'll set you straight even if you're not wrong!
I don't care what you think. I'm just telling the truth.
You must recognize that Toyota took so long to develop their high quality because they had no idea what the American people wanted, and no decent vehicles to copy from. Hyundai, and all other manufacturers can and do study dozens of cars and take the best features from them. Manufactures would be nuts to develop everything on their own dime. This isn't a school test, and copying is fair and legal if no patents are infringed upon.
Having said that, Hyundai does spend large sums on R&D. They have signifiant patents on manufacturing processes and active electronic stability control. Hyundai uses more robots (their own Hyundai robots) than any other manufacturer. Hyundai was the first manufacturer to offer electronic stability control as a standard feature across the board. Some base model Toyotas and Hondas still do not offer ESC as standard equipment. They will, thanks to Hyundai and government mandates.
Ditto, my friend, ditto. Truth is is in the eyes of the beholder.
What? BMW was offering ESC in the '80s and has been offering ESC across the board for years. So Hyundai mandates will force Honda to offer ESC in every model? I don't think so.
Hyundai didn't mandate anything, the governement is. Hyundai just started the trend, if anything
In other news, Strategic Vision 2007 Total Value Awards are out:
http://www.strategicvision.com/press_release.php?pr=28
What is known, this will mark the first time Hyundai advertises during the Superbowl broadcast in th US.
(multi-link) and the RX(also Camry,ES350) has a rear suspension similar to a 2000 Hyundai Accent (strut).
What are you talking about? Accord sales have down for the past 5 years:
2003: 397K
2004: 387K I think
2005: 369K
2006: 354K
Your right about the Camry though the 07 model is probably one of the best debut sellers for a new model in awhile selling 448K for 2006. Well the 07 Camry came out in March 2006 so there are some 2006 Camry's that were sold out of that 448K number.
"And the Sonata sales have totally stagnated at less than Malibu levels."
Malibu YTD: 90K I think the Detroit news said that that is the number that Chevy or GM for that matter has sold this year including rental fleets.
Sonata YTD: 99K including rental fleets.
Also take into account the hybrid sales are combined with the total Camry figures, which did not go on sale until April 2006, so in YOY comparisons Toyota did not have any sales of the hybrid model in the first four months of April (well, 86 units). The Camry does report a 7% year YTD up-trend unadjusted, subtracting out the unbalanced hybrid sales YOY, the regular Camry is up slightly over 1% YTD.
But, let's get back to topic before dwell too far offtopic
The Azera is a quality car( I have sat in it once or twice) but its not a sales success even auto channel.com had a picture of the Azera when they had the headline of the article titled "when good cars don;t sell"(I think that was the title of the article.)The Azera is getting outsold by the likes of the Toyota Avalon and the Dodge Charger. I was shocked that is getting outsold by the Charger although not the Avalon. Hyundai has only sold 17K Azera's so far this year. In the article that I read from autochannel they said Azera sales are down from last year.
They did nail it with the Santa Fe though I'll give you that given that it is a sales success.
It was actually an article from BusinessWeek, titled, "when good cars sell badly", and here are the cars featured, in alpha order:
Acura RL
BMW 7 Series
Cadillac STS
Hyundai Azera
Jaguar X-Type
Kia Amanti
Lincoln Town Car
Mazda6
Mercedes-Benz R-Class
Nissan Quest
Saab 9-5
Subaru Tribeca
Toyota Avalon
Volkswagen Passat
Volvo V70
A lot of automakers represented; not just Hyundai and Toyota.
No, if you are saying if you combine Hyundai and Kia brand sales last year in the US they did not outsell Honda/Acura, ,Nissan/Infinti or Dailmer.
Well Infinti really didn;t become a player in the luxury car game until the 2003 Infinti G35 came out than Infiniti became a player in the luxury car game in my opinion.
I know Maybach is very volume here in the US but isn;t the Maybach brand aligned with Mercedes? As far as Jaguar goes their sales go down every year it seems in the US I mean even Saab outsells Jag in the Us and how many cars did Saab sell last year in the US? like 32K? I mean is that something that Jaguar should be proud of(in their small numbers of US sales yearly?)
1974? Ah the Boomers were buying still loyal to their Domestic makes in the 80's and 90's. I mean the Domestics still had a 70% market share in the US for the year ending of 1997 going into January 1st, 1998. My parents are buy American people but I think my Mom may buy a Japanese branded car once her lease on her Pontiac is up.
Well I don;t think the Elantra, Azera, and Santa Fe are cheaply made and I have sat in those 3 cars yes.
Well CR liked the Santa Fe as a matter fact it ranked only behind Toyota RAV 4 in CR's tests for that respective class. CR called the Santa Fe much improved from the last gen Santa Fe(01-06 model.) I believe the Hyundai Azera in CR tests only ranked 2nd to the Toyota Avalon in its respective class as well.
Nissan is obsssed with Lexus? Somebody forgot to send me that memo. How has now Nissan ever try to be Lexus? The cloest thing that Nissan ever made to a Lexus was like the 1997-2001 Infinti Q45.
Toyota has a very good reputation for reliability(like them or not) that they don;t have to offer a 10 year warranty like Hyundai does. Hyundai had a very bad reputation so thats the reason why they had to offer the 10 year warranty in the first place and use the warranty to get people to step foot in a Hyundai showroom in the late 90's. I could never buy a Kia though because of bad reliability 10 year warranty or not.
Hyundai does not have the reputation for good reliability that Honda and Toyota do.
In the US and anywhere else, the sale point for Hyundai is 1. cheaper, or compete at price point; 2. longer warranty, a reality it has to deal with from their horrid history, and in my book, this doesn't register an endorsement to their product quality either! (Quite the opposite!!)
Well, in China, hyundai doen't offer a longer warranty program, so it is essentially competing on price point. It is sold well in the past because they are cheaper than Japanese or German. Guess what now? The Chinese brands are poping up in every corner now and they are cheaper with better features (these are computer + software, aren't they?) This doesn't bold well for hyundai.
As one of the poster said earlier, hyundai is doing a good job in reverse engineering. Well, it will help you to catch up the leader but only innovation will bring it to be a leader.
Outside the car area, sony lcd actually uses samsung panel but it commends a premium over the samsung tv. Why so? Because side by side, a sony TV is better than the samsung's. Talking about innovation, koran makers still have a mountain to climb.
(I suspect there're a few posters here are korean-related. I appologize if I offend you by any way, but I just speak of my opinion based on the facts I conceived. As an ordinary people, I am sincerely hoping one of this day, a korean company does commend a premium in the market place, they are just not there yet.)
Sorry, but I just don't see the success of a brand just because its product is cheaper, unless it is a retailer like warmart.
1) SAIC-GM-Wuling
2) FAW Volkswagen
3) Shanghai GM
4) Shanghai Volkswagen
5) Chery
Hyundai is in the top 10, still. VW has been the earliest and biggest entry in the beginning of the auto market, IIRC, and still has a significant share. Heck, when I was in Shanghai on business, 95% of the taxi fleet were VW Santana.
I wouldn't draw too much correlation from the Chinese market to others (i.e. US). The Chinese market is in the very early stage, and it is too complex for a short analysis here. Plus, the topic is Hyundai in the luxury game, not how Hyundai is doing worldwide, saleswise (which can take on many meanings). Even then, Hyundai is doing great in many markets around the world.
RX350: Independent MacPherson Strut Front Suspension With Coil Springs and Gas Charged Shock Absorbers Independent Strut Multi-Link Rear Suspension With Coil Springs and Gas Charged Shock Absorbers
Source: 2008 Lexus RX 350 AWD
Veracruz: Independent MacPherson Strut Front Suspension With Coil Springs and Gas Charged Shock Absorbers Independent Multi-Link Rear Suspension With Coil Springs and Gas Charged Shock Absorbers
Source: 2008 Hyundai Veracruz Limited AWD
Lexus RX: Independent struts with coil springs, gas-pressurized shock absorbers and stabilizer bar
http://www.lexus.com/models/RX/detailed_specifications.html
Hyundai Veracruz: Independent multi-link design, coil springs, 17 mm stabilizer bar and gas-charged shock absorbers
http://www.hyundainews.com/Media_Kits/2008_Models/Veracruz/Specifications.asp