Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

11314161819142

Comments

  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Sorry, but I just don't see the success of a brand just because its product is cheaper

    Amen to that!


    By using that logic, it leads me to think when the brand is expensive, success is generally easier to acheive (??) Or, in the case Maybach, for example, having only sold 150 units units last year, some success there (before someone tells me they're ultra-luxury, and yes to that, except they are well, well short of the goal). It is still raising prices for the 2008 model year, by the way ;)
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Sorry, but I just don't see the success of a brand just because its product is cheaper

    Amen to that!


    I agree. But how about cheaper and just as good where it counts?
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Actually Maybach has been considered as a failure by MB. MB recently has announced that they'll cut down the number of Maybach dealerships here in the US. Maybach being MB's ultra luxury brand hasn't live up to the expectation of competing against Audi's Bentley and BMW's Rolls Royce.

    So, no, being expensive does not mean success is easier to achieve.
  • goldsuvgoldsuv Member Posts: 51
    It wouldn't kill you to get over to SAE.org once and a while.
    A good paper to start with is :2006-01-1665 : The Newly Developed Suspension of Hyundai SantaFe
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    what's "where it counts"?

    Again, your "where it counts" might not be the same as my "where it counts".

    No?
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    The car counts. Sales don't.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    40% of its dealer network has been closed. I would have liked a 62 :)
  • ykangykang Member Posts: 88
    Sorry, but I just don't see the success of a brand just because its product is cheaper, unless it is a retailer like warmart

    Hyundai sales dropped because they only sold previous generation models in china.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    The car counts. Sales don't.

    Tell that to Hyundai, I am sure they'll embrace that idea...

    :confuse:
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    For that kind of price, I'll take a 599.

    Does a 62 come with a chauffeur? :P
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    You'd bet.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Hyundai's not selling...what do you know - its third quarter net profit rose by 45%, sales grew by 20%, labor relations are getting better (i.e. less strikes, more production)

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119329736526171125.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

    On another note, the overall U.S. auto market is deteriorating but everyone knows that by now.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I don't think it's fair to say that "Hyundai is not selling", as matter of fact, just by looking at the increasing number of models over the last couple years one should know that Hyundai is coming along nicely.

    However, it's not all "living happily after" for the Hyundai camp IMO. The biggest concern is Sonata, spin it all you want but let's face it, the car did NOT live up to the expectation. This car, which rivals Accord/Camry in about every category but cost a lot less was suppose to be a major player in the midsize segment. But that's not the case as we see today. Granted that it is doing better than the previous generation but the fact that there is a big gap between it and the top 3 sellers (Camry, Accord and Altima) tells me that Hyundai is not there yet.

    Second, the perception is still haunting Hyundai and I think that has played a big role for the no-so-desirable Sonata sales. I personally would recommend any Hyundai models to my family, relatives and friend. As matter of fact, I told my mom to get a Sonata when she will be replacing her Camry. However, for myself if I am financially capable I would still go with Toyota and Honda over Hyundai. Why? Same reason why I don't buy domestics: since I have great experience with Toyota/Honda it'll take a big let down plus awesome products from Hyundai to sway me away. I know that not everyone operates the same way as me but let's face it, you know there are also A LOT of people who think just like me.

    Hyundai has come a long way and I think it's on the right path. I have a few beef with the company on the way they are introducing the Genesis but that wouldn't overshadow the fact that I think Hyundai is getting there to match its Japanese counterparts. Public perception is still a big issue but time, and only time (along with good products, of course) will take care of it.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    I agree with your assessment except for 1 point. Winning over customers and increasing sales is a gradual thing. Sales never reflect the car 100% in the first year or 2.

    If the most perfect car in the world came along at a great price, but nobody had ever heard of it, only a few insiders would buy it. Sales would ramp up very slowly, year by year, until it reached a tipping point (as I have mentioned before). Once critical mass has been reached (a certain number of cars on the road with satisfied owners) sales would start increasing faster and faster and eventually reflect how good the hypothetical car is. Someone more expert in marketing can probably refine my example. (Joe97?)

    That said, Hyundai cars obviously haven't reached the magical tipping point yet. Remember that quality and value are leading indicators of future sales, and sales is a lagging indicator of past quality and value. Unless cars are brought to market that are better values than the Hyundai line, I see sales slowly creeping up. Of course the economy will have to be factored into that.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I agree with your assessment as well but I think Sonata is still an interesting case. Hyundai really needs to put their full energy on the midsize segment because as we all know this is the bread and butter for the auto manufactures. Anything less than a close number 4 spot should be unacceptable IMO given how good the Sonata is compare to the rest of the field.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    How would you advise Hyundai to sell over 180,000 Sonatas a year in the U.S., which is currently their practical maximum if they wish to push the "made in the USA" mantra? It will take much more than 180,000 a year to be a "close number 4 spot" as you said. They are working on expanding the Alabama plant but that will take awhile. They could ship cars from the ROK, assuming they have the capacity there, but then they can't advertise "Sonata is made in the USA", which they seem to like to do.

    Also, how do you think the 2009 Sonata, with the improvements that have been noted here in Town Hall, will be received by the public? Do you think those improvements will be enough to keep sales maxed out (15k a month)?

    Finally... what does the Sonata taking the #4 spot in the mid-sized family sedan market have to do with whether there's room in the luxury market for Hyundai?
  • mpuzachmpuzach Member Posts: 635
    I wonder how many Camry, Accord, and Altima buyers would have bought Sonatas instead if the Sonata had been available with navigation? Count me as one who's in Hyundai's corner but failing to offer navigation in the Sonata, Santa Fe, Azera, and Veracruz is an inexcusable mistake. Anyone who wants factory nav (without going to an aftermarket unit) has no choice but to not buy a Hyundai.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    It's already been pointed out at least once here that factory navigation is available for 2008 in the Azera and Veracruz--the closest vehicles Hyundai has to this topic. And the word is that Sonata will offer it for 2009 (1H09). Once Sonata gets it (in the Alabama plant), can the Santa Fe be far behind? To answer your question, you would need to know how many factory-nav models of Camry, Accord, and Altima are sold each year.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I think the '09 improvement will be good for Sonata. I can't speak for others but since the current interior is the only beef I have with the Sonata I would love to see the changes. With the changes I will even push harder convincing my mom to replace her Camry with one.

    Finally... what does the Sonata taking the #4 spot in the mid-sized family sedan market have to do with whether there's room in the luxury market for Hyundai?

    Probably nothing. So based on your suggestion let's talk nothing other than Hyundai going luxury.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    What does Sonata, Santa Fe getting factory navigation have anything to do with "Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?"

    ;)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    If the NAV in the Camry is no better than the top of the line 2007 Sequoia NAV, you would be better off buying the Sonata and putting in a superior after market unit. One with XM integration as well as elevation and accurate routing program.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Factory nav is a feature associated with luxury cars. The fact that someone erroneously thought that no Hyundai offers factory nav needed to be corrected, I thought. I tossed in the Sonata and Santa Fe because they were in the initial post that I responded to. So shoot me.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Factory nav is a feature associated with luxury cars."

    Not any more. Factory nav is coming to a car nearest to you.
  • mpuzachmpuzach Member Posts: 635
    Yeah, the word is that navigation is going to be offered on these models but my understanding is that it will be a mid-year offering. (Have you actually seen one that has it?) Regardless, it should have been offered when these vehicles were introduced; it's not as if GPS is new technology.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Agreed.

    Hyundai has come a long way and I think it's on the right path.

    And I would add to this Hyundai has a long way to go, as well.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Navigation should roll out on 2008 model year Veracruz, Azera, and Santa Fe models, and in that order. 2009 Sonata facelift (which should appear sometimes 1st half 2008) is also expected to equipped with Navigation as an option but this still needs to be confirmed.

    To answer your question, you would need to know how many factory-nav models of Camry, Accord, and Altima are sold each year.

    Very little but adding the option would help further
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    What I said was that factory nav is a feature associated with luxury cars. Do you disagree with that statement? Is factory nav not expected on luxury cars?

    Your statement was different. And it's true that factory nav is filtering down to non-luxury cars. Even cars like the Civic and Mazda3 can be had in the U.S. with factory nav. And in many other countries (but not the U.S.), small Hyundais like the Elantra can be purchased with factory nav. But in many countries, a car like the Elantra would be considered an upscale car. Not in the U.S. though!
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    If the most perfect car in the world came along at a great price, but nobody had ever heard of it, only a few insiders would buy it. Sales would ramp up very slowly, year by year, until it reached a tipping point (as I have mentioned before). Once critical mass has been reached (a certain number of cars on the road with satisfied owners) sales would start increasing faster and faster and eventually reflect how good the hypothetical car is. Someone more expert in marketing can probably refine my example. (Joe97?)

    That said, Hyundai cars obviously haven't reached the magical tipping point yet. Remember that quality and value are leading indicators of future sales, and sales is a lagging indicator of past quality and value. Unless cars are brought to market that are better values than the Hyundai line, I see sales slowly creeping up. Of course the economy will have to be factored into that.


    Agreed.

    That's one of the obstacles Hyundai is facing, Hyundai knows they have a quality line-up on its hand, on-par, if not better than competitors; the industry professionals know, read the reviews and comparos; the consumers/owners know, go look at the ratings for Azera, for example. What about the rest of the US, then? FWIW, Hyundai is tackling the problem. It is going to be solved overnight, but Hyundai is heading in the right direction.

    The upcoming BH will only to solidfy Hyundai's position, Hyundai brand image, perception, recongition, and the whole nine yards :)
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    What I said was that factory nav is a feature associated with luxury cars. Do you disagree with that statement?

    Yes. Power windows are also a feature associated with luxury cars, yet almost every car now features them. Even the Subaru Forester is/will be having nav as an option.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    The upcoming BH will only to solidfy Hyundai's position, Hyundai brand image, perception, recongition, and the whole nine yards

    While the BH will definitely make waves among enthusiasts and enthusiast magazines, I can't even guess how it will sell. Hyundai is short on test drivers, and the BH could get some butts in the seats. Reading about the Sonata got my attention, actually driving the car is what sealed the deal. It's possible that the BH could help sell some lesser Hyundai's.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I'm not sure why you are disagreeing with me on this. Note I did not say, "Factory nav is a feature associated only with luxury cars." But your posts make it sound like that is what I said.
  • mpuzachmpuzach Member Posts: 635
    Perhaps another way of expressing the point is, "Without factory navigation, a car cannot effectively compete in the luxury car market." IMO the same thing can be said for xenon headlights.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    As for xenon and navi, I'll take the xenon over navi any day of the week. As matter of fact, a good portable unit serves the purpose much better than the factory option. At the end of the day, both items are still gadgets (although I really like the xenon) and what's really important to a car is what sits under the hood.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    The buzz the BH/Genesis has generated so far easily is the highest among all Hyundai production vehicles. What this translates into is much unknown, yet, but the potential of this car and a series of upcoming vehicles (i.e. BH coupe) creating the rolling ball effect (in a good way) to the rest of the lineup, and the brand itself is very very high, transparent or not.
  • craigmricraigmri Member Posts: 243
    Well I have to admit I am extremely disappointed to hear the news I got today from the Consumers affairs manager at Hyundai.

    I have been working with this individual closely for the last few months waiting on the Navi-equipped Veracruz to come. He contacted me today after researching some questions I had about the soon to be released Navi unit.

    The Veracruz Navi unit will NOT have a backup camera option nor will it be bluetooth compatible. Needless to say I'm not getting the Navi option since I can get a superior unit for a fraction of the price aftermarket.

    This news has me in disbelief that Hyundai would go through the trouble of integrating a Navigation unit into a flagship model thats compared to a Lexus yet they omit some key elements that are quickly becoming common.

    While I still enjoy the Hyundai products I must admit my confidence in Hyundai joining the big leagues has faltered.

    I would like to know how Backy, Sephia and Joe feel about this since they enjoy the Hyundai products like I do.

    Craig
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I'm not a good one to ask, because I don't need factory nav in my vehicles. I don't have any nav system now (I find they're most useful when I'm on the road, in a rental car), but if I had one I'd get a portable unit I could swap between vehicles. In short, I don't think the price of factory nav is worth the value, to me.
  • mpuzachmpuzach Member Posts: 635
    I'm not Backy, Sephia, or Joe but I am a fan of Hyundai. (I own a 2007 Santa Fe Limited AWD.) I absolutely share your disappointment. If Hyundai truly wants to compete in the luxury market, they need to demonstrate leadership. By not offering the features you mentioned, they're showing that they're not even a good follower. Pretty unimpressive IMO.

    BTW, Craig, did your contact mention when we'd actually see the navigation-equipped vehicles? So far, all we have is "they're coming in 2008". When will nav-equipped models actually arrive at dealers?
  • craigmricraigmri Member Posts: 243
    "BTW, Craig, did your contact mention when we'd actually see the navigation-equipped vehicles? So far, all we have is "they're coming in 2008". When will nav-equipped models actually arrive at dealers?"

    MPUZACH,

    He mentioned the Navi's will arrive to dealers in two to three weeks.

    Backy,

    I was hopeful the Navi option was going to be in the $2000 range and it would have a backup camera in addition to bluetooth compatibility. I would have gladly paid to have those features. I agree with you in that since its only a navi, a portable unit is simply far more cost effective with more features and versatility.

    Craig
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The absence of Bluetooth is really puzzling, because even inexpensive portable units have that, and it's a feature that's finding its way into even low-end cars e.g. Versa. I can see where on a vehicle of that size, a backup camera would be nice. Does the Veracruz have backup sensors/alarm available?

    Since it's been pointed out by a number of folks that the Veracruz isn't a luxury vehicle, I am wondering if the nav on the Genesis will have more features.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Interestingly enough, the 2008 Veracruz Motortrend tested had bluetooth equipped (perhaps it wasn't connected to the navigation system, not sure). Backup camera would be a nice feature, the Veracruz has a backup warning system which works quite well.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,938
    with a 2002 Hyundai Sonata rental.

    If Accords in 2002 were selling for 20-22K, I'd of priced the Sonata rental I had for $10-11K at most. Felt like a tin can. Was slower than a sloth to accelerate.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • rv65rv65 Member Posts: 1,076
    That one even had the FM modulated Aux in jack.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    You need to drive a newer model. There's no comparison with a 2005 and older. The V6 is a rocket, and even the I4 is quite strong. If Hyundai's quality and engineering hadn't improved 100% from that 2002 you drove, this thread wouldn't even exist.
  • rv65rv65 Member Posts: 1,076
    Yes the Veracruz has backup sensors. The Genesis nav will have all the missing features. Hands free bluetooth, Backup camera, MMI like dial to control it, XM NavTraffic, The control dial can control the car settings. Really nice navigation unit.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    I am sorry that Hyundai is not offering those gadgets you want. Interestingly, my '08 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS has NAV available but I passed...I may want it later but I didn't even start to let NAV come in to my purchase decision.

    My Lancer GTS has bluetooth but my model of Sanyo cellphone is not bluetooth-equipped! But gadgets don't sway my automobile purchase decisions.

    Go for aftermarket...if we're going to pay for rigs that are this expensive we might as well after-equip them to our liking. Can be thought of as annoying if we let it. But you might like the price and performance of the aftermarket items more than the Hyundai/Kia factory items anyway.

    Go forth and equip!

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    But at the end of the day it's what lies under the hood and the build quality that matters.

    Oh and this applies to both luxury and non-luxury vehicles.
  • colloquorcolloquor Member Posts: 482
    I share several posters disappointment as well regarding the NAV in the Veracruz, but I certainly wouldn't opt for one if Hyundai did offer the options anyway. Although I'm acutely aware of their advantages over portable units, I will buy a portable unit any time over the costly NAV option on any new car. Why? Primarily due to the very fast changing technology, and the cost-effectiveness of the portable units. I would presume that Hyundai is still going after the demographic which is looking for a value-oriented or cost-effective equivalent to the competition. Built-in NAV units are simply not cost-effective.

    I recently spent a weekend with a business colleague who owns a late model Lexus LS430. He didn't order it with the built-in NAV unit, rather he bought a portable Magellan for less than $200 at Costco. He may drive a LS430, but he watches his pennies like a hawk!
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    He may drive a LS430, but he watches his pennies like a hawk!

    The man knows what's important for a car!
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    "I have great experience with Toyota/Honda it'll take a big let down plus awesome products from Hyundai to sway me away. I know that not everyone operates the same way as me but let's face it, you know there are also A LOT of people who think just like me. "

    Yeah there are alot of people like you because it seems with like passing year for the past maybe 5-10 years it gets harder and harder for other automakers to get a sale away from either Toyota or Honda.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    The Azera is bigger inside and out compared to the Sonata, has a totally different body and interior

    Man, you are looking at a different Azera that I am, which side by side with the Sonata, has a tricked up grille, and a different butt, but dimensionally, is identical. The doors are interchangeable, so how is it so much bigger? I'm sincerely asking, as I see no difference?
Sign In or Register to comment.

Your Privacy

By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our Visitor Agreement.