Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

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Comments

  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Couldn't the designers have come up with something original?

    I guess I've heard that said about every car since 1955. Really, since there are 10's of 1000's of car designs, parts of every car will remind you of parts of some other car.

    The real question is, do all the parts work together. I think the Genesis is a very pleasing and well-balanced design. It will stand out in a crowd, but won't stick out like a sore thumb. The real magic in the Genesis is in the cabin, under the hood, and on the window sticker. ;)
  • neoisleneoisle Member Posts: 9
    From South Korea
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  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    The logo looks like a moth with a radiator. I like it!
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,500
    Funny that there's an E-class behind it. Where's the BMW and Accord?

    Not bad, but that vertical grille element is very odd.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    From the front quarter view (the first and second pictures) it looks like a hybrid between the Lexus LS and Infiniti G35. The side profile (last picture) looks like a BMW 5-series and the rear looks like an enlarged Azera.

    Not a bad execution in my opinion but I still wish that they'd kept the concept's front and tail lenses.
  • scbobscbob Member Posts: 167
    I like it too. Didn't Morgan have something like that? It is also reminiscent of what the luxury cars of the 50's had.
  • scbobscbob Member Posts: 167
    Thanks for the link. I still think it is possible for Hyundai to produce a luxury car, but they need to be different from the rest of the pack.
  • cruiser69cruiser69 Member Posts: 40
    Hyundai will have no problem in this segment. Mercedes is trying to recover from the Chrysler fiasco and trying to improve reliability, although reliability does not seem to matter to the rich who can afford these cars, they just beat the crap out of them and turn them in for a new one. Infinity is great but suffers from lack of loyal followers. BMW is still trying to convince new owners that they can build an automatic trans that does not repeatedly fail. Lexus is about the only one who holds its own now, although their new 460H was a bit of a letdown in the interior luxury department.

    This gives Hyundai a great opportunity to show what they can do. Being a current Hyundai owner, i have mixed reviews about the product. I bought a 07 Elantra, which was build in oct 06 against my better judgment. Never buying a first model year redesign i mean.

    Its had peanty of glitches so far so i have to wait and see about the long term verdict. I know the critics just cant wait to slam Hyundai for their first effort, but look at the current selection of luxury cars and all i can say is, until everyone offers their protective warranty and shows more care for quality, they should keep their mouths shut.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    BMW is still trying to convince new owners that they can build an automatic trans that does not repeatedly fail.

    Err where do you get that from? Most BMW transmissions are made by ZF anyway and not by BMW. I haven't seen any kind of high failure rate for BMW automatics in the past few years.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    MB - The reliability has been improving for the last several years, late 90s and early 00s were probably the worst time for them but they are definitely better now. Regardless MB is still the leader in build and material quality (interior) for the mid and high end luxury segments.

    BMW - I can't remember the last time that I heard about BMW has tranny issues, whether its manual or automatic. Last I checked, most BMW models are selling like hot cakes, especially the 5-series (Genesis' intended competitor).

    Infiniti - A long as Infiniti keeps putting out good products like the M and G they don't have to worry about the "loyal followers" issue. People know a good product when they see one.

    Lexus - What is a 460H? If you are thinking LS460 then I have to tell you that It'll be an achievement if Genesis can match the GS in terms of interior build and material quality, nevertheless the LS. All Lexus sedans don't have flashy interiors but their quality is probably at worst the second best in class (behind MB) if not the best.

    I don't think Hyundai will have trouble selling the Genesis, but it'll be interesting to see who will take the biggest hit due to it. My guess is not from any of the above...
  • cruiser69cruiser69 Member Posts: 40
    This should help a little for you. Please keep in mind engine, trans, and cooling problems weigh more heavely then other problems....

    CR BAD BETS

    These vehicles showed multiple Used Car Verdicts that were much worse than average, according to our survey respondents. They consistently had more problems than other models overall.

    BMW 7 Series
    BMW X5 (V8)
    Chevrolet Astro
    Chevrolet Blazer
    Chevrolet Express
    Chevrolet S-10 (4WD)
    Chevrolet Venture
    Chevrolet Uplander
    Chrysler
    Town & Country (AWD)
    Dodge
    Grand Caravan (AWD)
    GMC Jimmy
    GMC Sonoma (4WD)
    GMC Safari
    GMC Savana
    Infiniti QX56
    Jaguar S-Type
    Jaguar X-Type
    Jeep Grand Cherokee
    Kia Sedona
    (except ‘06)
    Land Rover Discovery
    Land Rover LR3
    Lincoln Aviator
    Lincoln Navigator
    Mercedes-Benz CLK
    Mercedes-Benz
    M-Class (V8)
    Mercedes-Benz
    S-Class (V8)
    Mercedes-Benz SL
    Nissan Armada
    Nissan Titan
    Oldsmobile Bravada
    Oldsmobile Cutlass
    Oldsmobile Silhouette
    Pontiac Aztek
    Pontiac Trans Sport
    Pontiac Montana
    Pontiac Montana SV6
    Volkswagen Cabrio
    Volkswagen Jetta
    (turbo, gas)
    Volkswagen Jetta (V6)
    Volkswagen
    New Beetle (4-cyl.)
    Volkswagen Touareg
    Volvo XC90 (6-cyl.)
  • cruiser69cruiser69 Member Posts: 40
    Pardon me, the LS-H, for Lexus. The hybrid version recently reviewed by Motor Trend.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Actually this is of no help, but thanks for trying. All it says is every other BMW than the 7 series and X5 is on par with the market, in addition the 750s are recommended.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Sorry quoting CR doesn't really bolster your case any. Plus there are only two BMWs on that list.

    The 7-Series which everyone knows is a nightmare and I completely agree with that assessment. Most of its problems are electrical problems associated with the iDrive and other related systems.

    The X5, and only the V8 mind you, because most of the problems with that car had to do with the engine and some of the higher end options only available on V8 cars.
  • cruiser69cruiser69 Member Posts: 40
    BMW 3 series autos from 1999-2004 have been showing problems according to repair stats at BMW dealerships. This has also been discussed on BMW owner forums as well as automobile repair web sites. CR has also mentioned two BMW models to avoid, and can recommend none as good used car bets. The manual trans has had no reported complaints as far as i have seen. To be fair, the 3 series has been completely redesigned recently, including receiving a new auto trans so time will tell. As long as BMW has been producing cars, they should have at least one recommended model as a good used car by now. Opinions aside, if something is broke, its broke. That hurts reliability.
  • rjlaerorjlaero Member Posts: 659
    From those pics, I think the Genesis is one of, if not the best looking Hyundai's they've ever made.

    So many cars out in the market places will eventually run together looks wise, so it's unrealistic that Hyundai will come up with something totally different.

    At the price range of low to mid 30's, this car should be great for Hyundai.

    The current $85,000 Lexus LS looks way too much like a Toyota Camry, so you can't complain too much about the direction Hyundai is going.
  • cruiser69cruiser69 Member Posts: 40
    I see, so professionally collecting repair data on tens of thousands of cars bear no weight on whether a car is reliable or not? Do you forget BMW offers a complimentary maintenance program now? Do think they did that out of the kindness of their hearts? No, it was in response to their astronomical maintenance costs and they bowed to consumer pressure. Break My Wallet BMW remember? CR is not the only source of this info. See the BMW Owner forums as well as auto repair sites to further clarify. People have to go on more than opinions to see if the car they are purchasing is reliable. Not one BMW is recommended as a good used car according to them or any other publication i have read recently. To be fair, the 3 series has been completely redesigned as well as receiving a new auto trans so time will tell. If something needs repair its not an opinion, its a fact.

    Thats why we have people who keep track of that data so we can make an informed purchase decision. Otherwise we are at the hands of smiling salesman telling us to trust them about what the cars long term durability is. But no matter how much evidence is out there, you still have people who will deny the facts, like the paper airplane in Planet Of the Apes, simply destroy the evidence and cry "nonsense!"
  • cruiser69cruiser69 Member Posts: 40
    Read it again. No BMWs are recommended. Look under Good used car bets. With all due respect to your uneducated knocks at CR, they are the professionals who scientifically collect repair data on tens of thousands of cars, you and i do not. You would not tell your doctor how to operate on you, would you? Well, you have to admit they know what they are doing or the auto makers would have contested it in court. You know why they dont? Because its true. If something breaks and needs repair, it does. Its a fact not an opinion. I am not saying that BMW makes bad cars, but i have to go with what is out there in studies and the media, as well as owner experiences and repair shops who work on the things. I wish i knew how you guys know that a vehicle is reliable without any credible research on it. Where do you get your information from that you think is accurate? Can you find me the same genie lamp too?
  • cruiser69cruiser69 Member Posts: 40
    BMW
    Highest-selling car: 3 Series convertible, coupe, sedan and wagon *
    Base price: $32,400
    2006 sales: 120,180 (up 12%)

    Lowest-selling car: 6 Series convertible and coupe
    Base price: $73,900
    2006 sales: 9,322 (down 6%)

    Up 12 percent. Very good but certainly not hotcakes. Heres some hotcake models for you....

    Hyundai
    Highest-selling car: Sonata sedan *
    Base price: $17,345
    2006 sales: 149,513 (up 15%)

    Lowest-selling car: Tiburon coupe
    Base price: $16,595
    2006 sales: 17,382 (down 16%)

    Nissan

    Highest-selling car: Altima sedan *
    Base price: $17,750
    2006 sales: 232,457 (down 9%)

    Lowest-selling car: 350Z convertible and coupe
    Base price: $27,650
    2006 sales: 24,635 (down 10%)

    Toyota
    Highest-selling car: Camry convertible, coupe and sedan
    Base price: $18,470
    2006 sales: 448,445 (up 4%)

    Lowest-selling car: Land Cruiser SUV *
    Base price: $56,215
    2006 sales: 3,376 (down 31%)

    Please note the BMW's take four models combined to reach their sales figures. To be fair, the BMW's base prices are the highest of the group at 32,400 which does make a difference in sales of course. However, if you compare direct cars in BMW's class, BMW outsells them but the competition starts out at a higher base price...so sales are going to be just as lopsided that way as here. BMW does sell well, but as an overall sales drive it counts four models to be top selling compared to other cars here. F----s.com provided the data. I can't use the source names on here so F----s.com and CR are ok because i dont actually say who they are.

    Oh, by the way..loyal followers are important. GM and Ford thought that didn't matter either and look where it got them.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Until I get a chance to drive one of these new Hyundais I have to judge it on how past hyundais have driven which is crap and how the styling is which is just a miss mash of five or six different cars.

    BMW started their pre-paid maintenance program to cover their own [non-permissible content removed] because people wouldn't have the service work done on their leases. It is the bare minimum to get the car through the lease and I would be hesitant to buy an off lease CPO BMW that only had the pre-paid services done.

    Do the proper maintenance on a BMW and it will out run most any other car on the road. It probably won't be as reliable as a Lexus/Toyota Honda/Acura but not by much.
  • rjlaerorjlaero Member Posts: 659
    I doubt a lot of people are going to cross shop BMW, MB, and Audi with the Genesis. Asain & Japanese cars don't drive anything like a German car.

    People looking at the Genesis are mostly likely the upper end Camry/Accord crowd who want to upgrade to a nicer luxury car, but don't want to pay Lexus dollars.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Sorry quoting CR doesn't really bolster your case any. Plus there are only two BMWs on that list.

    The 7-Series which everyone knows is a nightmare and I completely agree with that assessment.


    I don't know who "everyone" is but sorry, you are wrong on this and I couldn't disagree more. It sounds more like, I heard this from someone, who heard it from someone else...etc.

    And if quoting CR doesn't bolster my case, you have no case.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Can you find me the same genie lamp too?

    Yeah, under your pillow.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,500
    You are exactly correct. Hyundai-admirers claiming MB and BMW problems will steer buyers into the swoopy 'H' are not being realistic. Completely different targets. I'll wager no evidence will be found of a single buyer who cross-shops cars from these respective makes. For a lot of buyers of these cars, you could slap the swoopy H on a E or 5er, and they wouldn't touch it based on that alone.

    I have no doubt the Genesis will be the best Hyundai yet...but one must always remember, the competition is a moving target.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    defending Britney Spears or Dennis Rodman. Why would someone defend BMW? Just more snobbish, overpriced German cars that don't deliver. Poooeey.

    The Genesis will sell and will be reliable and will help Hyundai step one step closer to Number 5 in the world. No stinky, sweaty socks, bald heads or snobbish German automotive reliability imcompetents.

    More brand names to prop up your shallow ego's and disparaging hearts. Oooh, I just got a nasty image of Donald Trump in my head. Those lips! And that hair!

    Ya all fi-y-aaaa-ed! :mad:

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Totally agree that owning a BMW is very risky. I could afford the notes on a new BMW, but not both the notes and the expensive repairs. I couldn't afford a used BMW, period. They're just too expensive to own. They don't nickel and dime you to death, they hundred and thousand you to death. MB is a bit better, but only a bit.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Then why not buy or lease a new BMW (since you can afford it) and ditch it when the 4 years free maintenance expires? No risk there.

    I wonder if Hyundai will come up with anything like BMWs free maintenance for the Genesis, since Hyundai is renowned for its warranty program?
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Then why not buy or lease a new BMW (since you can afford it) and ditch it when the 4 years free maintenance expires? No risk there.

    Just because I can afford a BMW doesn't mean it suits me. I don't believe in rewarding shoddy engineering with my hard-earned dollars, either. I have friends and relatives that own Bimmers and MB's, and their problem index is pretty high. It's curious to me that even though their cars are always in the shop for something, they still feel they are worth the headache and expense.

    To be honest, I don't think I will ever be serious about buying a Genesis, but it will be tempting. My wife and me put our needs above style. She drives a Sonata, I drive a Toyota pickup, and we're pretty content for now.
  • fourteen14fourteen14 Member Posts: 85
    Wow! BMW must think that it's potential buyers are really stupid! They say, in effect, "Pay thousands and thousands of dollars more for a BMW, and you won't have to pay $30 every 7500 miles for an oil change and $100 per axle (maybe once) for brakes!" Wow! I'll keep my money in my pocket, and my Azera (or Genesis) on the road!!!!

    PS: "My Mama didn't raise no ignorant children!!"
  • fourteen14fourteen14 Member Posts: 85
    Do NOT let your wife drive an Azera!! If you do, she will discover, as we have, that the Azera is soooo much nicer than the Sonata for a little more money, that she will insist that you trade her Sonata in immediately on a new Azera!!!!

    That's what happened to me, but in our case it was an Acura CL Type S!!
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    You haven't priced BMW service costs lately, have you? ;)

    I really don't think BMW thinks its potential buyers are stupid. Indeed, they probably think they are smart shoppers, have heard about reliability issues and high service costs with BMWs, and thus BMW offers the 4 years of free maintenance. I think it's a good perk for a luxury car. I am wondering if Hyundai will do something similar for the Genesis.

    Also I don't think it's accurate to say that BMWs cost "thousands and thousands of dollars" more than competitors. They aren't bargain priced to be sure, but are they thousands and thousands of dollars more than a comparable Audi or Mercedes? I don't think so. Do they cost a lot more than a Genesis will? It appears so. Advantage Hyundai.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
  • fourteen14fourteen14 Member Posts: 85
    are they thousands and thousands of dollars more than a comparable O V E R P R I C E D Audi or Mercedes?

    No, I guess not, but that BMW badge is still very expensive for what you get!
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Pretty soon that will be no problem for you.... you can buy a Genesis! :)
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Backy, Those are sacrilegious words to the uber faithful BMW fans, but so true. I think the Genesis will be equal or better than the 5 Series in every way. Well, it does remain to be seen whether Genesis can capture the subtle German driving characteristics ("feel") that the faithful pay such a high premium for. It isn't black magic, but simple mechanics and balance that can be copied. It starts with RWD, and a little plushness must be sacrificed. Last time I drove a 5 series (2003 I think), it handled very nicely, but was way noisier and harsher than my Sonata. My wife absolutely hated the car, but she isn't a car person.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    It's been said before here I think, but I don't see Genesis taking many sales away from BMW. People who buy BMWs are buying not only the car but the brand, the experience, the ticket to drive "the ultimate driving machine." They don't care if reliability isn't the best or service costs after the first 4 years are high. This is the same mentality of folks who will only go to a Honda dealer to buy a car, like an Accord, and won't even look at anything else. Toyota has similar fans (just why, given their slipping quality and reliability, I don't know but reputation and history are powerful inducements.) So Genesis won't be winning these folks over. But there's still a lot of luxury sedan buyers who will consider other makes, e.g. maybe someone who might have been considering an Infiniti, or realizes they can get a Genesis for about the same money or even less than a loaded Maxima or Avalon or even Camry, so why not take a look? They might steal some buyers from Cadillac, Lincoln, and Chrysler also. But from BMW? Not too many I think. Not until the Hyundai brand loses its stigma with the general public, and the Genesis is widely viewed as being at least equal to if not superior to the 5 Series in every aspect, including handling. That's a tall order.
  • hjc1hjc1 Member Posts: 183
    Backy is absolutely correct in his reasoning
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,500
    Exactly

    I'll await evidence of a single conquest buyer from BMW to Hyundai.

    I think they should change their logo...
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I too think that Chrysler, Lincoln and probably Cadillac (I am a little skeptical about this though) are going to take the biggest hit from Genesis.

    MB and BMW are going to be least effected by it.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    I think they should change their logo...

    Manufacturers should be rewarded for building good cars, and punished for building bad ones, not rewarded for a designer badge. There's a sucker born every minute that believes a badge stands for something. Those days are long gone.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,500
    Hyundai changed their badge ca. 1992, didn't they? If this is a rebirth of the brand, maybe the swoopy H is due for an update...

    Heck, even Toyota did it when they came up with the belt buckle logo ca. 1991. And of course they invented a new badge and brand for Lexus. Was that a car for suckers? Sometimes it is just astute marketing...
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Hyundai is getting a new logo, some sort of slashy brush stroke thing.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Hyundai is getting a new logo, some sort of slashy brush stroke thing.

    It won't make the cars any better or worse. It may have a placebo effect on some.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,500
    If it opens more eyes to the brand, isn't it worth it?

    That's kind of my point in all this...
  • scbobscbob Member Posts: 167
    I cross shoped Acura, Lexus, Infiniti and Azera when I was looking. Narrowed it down to Lexus and Azera, with Infiniti a strong third. Picked the Azera because I preferred its styling, interior, features, dealer and so forth. Cost was not a factor!
    Thinking toward the future, I would look at Genesis, Lexus LS, Infiniti M and possibly Buick Super (if GM gets it right).
    Many years agon I purchased a Saab Turbo because CR said it was a very reliable car. 36 trips to the dealership in first 18 months and all covered by warranty. I rely heavily on CR for reliability ratings because no body else really does it, but I also take them with a bag of salt.
    BTW, 2006 Azera rated much better than average by CR, 2007 now rated worse than average. How did it drop so far in a few months?
    Mine has 7,000 miles and 8 months and performs flawlesly. No repairs at all, unless you consider replacing the shocks.
  • craigmricraigmri Member Posts: 243
    After two weeks with the Veracruz I couldn't be happier! If this vehicle retains this degree of quality into the future this will be the best car I ever owned!

    I think Hyundai should have released the Veracruz under another brand name or a new updated Logo. They should do the same with the Genesis too. This would reduce the hurdle of stigma that exists and many can not look past.

    No matter, this is an awesome vehicle and I know I made a great choice!

    Craig
    '08 Veracruz Limited
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Craig,

    A rose by any other name smells just as sweet! :)

    Quality earns trust for a badge, a fancy new badge does not automatically garner trust.

    I do think the Vera Cruz and Genesis should be sold only by "premium" Hyundai dealers. I think there should be strict qualifications, and dealers should be required to prove they are willing and able to deliver a level of customer service that's on par with Lexus, etc.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I do think the Vera Cruz and Genesis should be sold only by "premium" Hyundai dealers.

    That may be a mistake. Remember VW having premium dealers for their luxury sedan. It was a flop. The more dealers that are available the better chance of success.
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