Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

cdmuile

The cars really are quite different. Before I bought my 06 Azera I went online and compared all measurements....Hyundai.com or Hyundaina.com, I forget which. The Azzie is a really large car, comparatively speaking.

derrelhgreen

The Azera is bigger inside and out compared to the Sonata, has a totally different body and interior.

"Man, you are looking at a different Azera that I am, which side by side with the Sonata, has a tricked
up grille, and a different butt, but dimensionally, is identical. The doors are interchangeable,
so how is it so much bigger? I'm sincerely asking, as I see no difference"?

There are indeed considerable differences between the two models.

Check out: http://www.kbb.com/kbb/NewCars/Specifications.aspx?SelectedTabIndex=1&VehicleCla- - - - ss=NewCar&ManufacturerId=20&YearId=2008&WebCategoryId=38&VehicleId=176804&Select- - - - ionHistory=176804%7c5126%7c92562%7c0%7c0%7c&ModelId=138

and compare that with:
http://www.kbb.com/kbb/NewCars/Specifications.aspx?SelectedTabIndex=1&VehicleCla- - - - ss=NewCar&ManufacturerId=20&YearId=2007&WebCategoryId=38&VehicleId=44347&ModelId- - - - =135

Backy is indeed correct.
An inch here, an inch there, more cu feet volume, length of the vehicles to name a few, plus a weight difference.
Wheel base, etc. The only things they share are the 3.3L engine and the basic platform.

joe97

Man, you are looking at a different Azera that I am, which side by side with the Sonata, has a tricked up grille, and a different butt, but dimensionally, is identical. The doors are interchangeable, so how is it so much bigger? I'm sincerely asking, as I see no difference?

If you see an Azera just like a bigger Sonata, then I see HUMMER just as a bigger version of the Yugo :P

I kid. Styling is subjective so if you are the one person that sees the Azera with no differences to the Sonata, visually, then more power to you. That said, the dimension is vastly different, if that was the meaning when you said "identical"

Sonata specs: http://www.hyundainews.com/Media_Kits/2008_Models/Sonata/Specifications.asp

Azera specs: http://www.hyundainews.com/Media_Kits/2008_Models/Azera/Specifications.asp

Here is another interesting fact you may be interested: while both the Sonata and Azera are shorter, when compared most of their closest competitors on the outside (or of their wheelbase), they easily boast some of the best overall interior volume and trunk space aka usable space for its segment respectively. As a result, the Sonata and Azera are both classified as large cars. As a matter of fact, most of its carline has the same effect; in addition, the Accent is a classified as a compact, and the Elantra is classified as a midsize.

bobad

The most telling dimension is the wheelbase. The Azera's is 109.4, the Sonata's 107.4. That 1 dimension makes them a much different car. Since the track is identical, it makes the Azera a "Stretch Sonata", theoretically giving it a smoother ride.

Even the engines are significantly different. Azera has a 3.8L, Sonata a 3.3L.

I hear you on interior versus exterior dimensions. Hyundai did an excellent job on balancing the interior and exterior. The Sonata and Azera hood still have a long, sporty look, and the trunk doesn't look chopped off. Kudos to the design team. They didn't have much to work with while retaining all that interior and trunk space.

gagrice

I do not see any reason why someone would buy the Toyota Camry instead of the Sonata. The Sonata gets better mileage, is much roomier, has a bigger trunk, much longer standard warranty, and far fewer problems in the current year of production. Plus the Sonata is better looking than the Camry.
If I was looking at a more luxurious ride than the Sonata, the Azera would be a no brainer over the ES350. If NAV is the only major difference you can forget the Lexus NAV. If it is no better than the POC NAV in my 2007 Sequoia it is next to worthless. If they give it to you it is not even that good of a deal. You cannot have XM or 6 CD changer with NAV and Rear seat entertainment. Toyota is losing it and companies like Hyundai will be more than happy to pick up the pieces.

bobad

I do not see any reason why someone would buy the Toyota Camry instead of the Sonata.

I can. Brand loyalty and the herding instinct are very powerful marketing phenomena. Besides that, the Camry is a darn good car.

But I hear what you are saying. With the $3000-$6000 saving, you can have a free vacation. And you could buy a state-of-the-art aftermarket NAV with a beautiful custom installation.

gagrice

The other thing is people go ahead and buy the 100k mile warranty on the Camry. That is another $1500 not needed with the Sonata. I think it is mostly buying from what friends tell them or they had good luck with a Toyota in the past. I know my wife hates to shop for cars. She would not have gone for this latest Sequoia, but for her 1990 LS400 is making funny noises that sound like the starter is already going out on it. That will be about$1500-$2000 at the indy Lexus repair shop. Cannot imagine what the Lexus dealer would charge.

And that is another good reason to buy a luxury car from a non luxury maker. Lower repair costs after warranty.

carguy58

"I do not see any reason why someone would buy the Toyota Camry instead of the Sonata."

Well the Camry name has been around for awhile now and the Camry name is alot more estbalished than the Sonata name. Nobody even noticed the Sonata until it got that Jaguar Styling. What was that the 1999 or 2000 model year?

"The Sonata gets better mileage,"

The Sonata gets better gas miledage than the Camry? I don;t think so but than again it depends alot on how owners of cars drive their cars when it falls to the subject of fuel mileadge.

"Plus the Sonata is better looking than the Camry."

Styling is subjective in my opinion.

joe97

The Sonata gets better gas miledage than the Camry? I don;t think so but than again it depends alot on how owners of cars drive their cars when it falls to the subject of fuel mileadge.

Fairly even playing turf for both, believe it or not. The new EPA ratings provide 21/31 I4s (Man.) and 19/28 V6s.

gagrice

The Sonata gets better gas miledage than the Camry? I don;t think so

If you compare the best selling 4 cylinder Camry to the Sonata 4 cylinder, the Sonata is rated at 25 MPG combined and the Camry at 24 MPG combined. Plus the Sonata is considered a LARGE car with a bigger trunk. What's not to like about the Hyundai?

andres3

what happens when you compare Hyundai's gas guzzling V6 option to the Camry's V6 fuel sipper?

joe97

Nothing, it's the same.

Gaz guzzling, not...

tenpin288

This is a little off-topic for this thread but here goes...

Per www.fueleconomy.gov

2008 Toyota Camry V6 18 city, 28 highway, 22 combined

2008 Honda Accord V6 19 city, 29 highway, 22 combined

2008 Hyundai Sonata V6 18 city, 28 highway, 22 combined

Compares pretty well I'd say. :P

joe97

Actually 19s for all three city mpg

Camry - 19/28 (22 combined)
Accord - 19/29 (22 combined)
Sonata - 19/28 (22 combined)

iluvmysephia1

And that is another good reason to buy a luxury car from a non luxury maker. Lower repair costs after warranty.

This reason rocks mightily if I even had a remote want to get a Hyundai Genesis in the future.

Lexus, Infiniti, MB, BMW, Caddidillac, none of them appear to be able to compete with Hyundai's Genesis when you factor in everything important to the equation.

andres3

Looking at the fuel economy data, it appears for a second that Hyundai has caught up in the gas mileage wars as of 2008.

However, if one looks at what they get for their 22 MPG, then Toyota wins again.

I'm sure I could buy many 100 HP engines and get 22 MPG easily :P But can you get 22 MPG with 270 HP?

tenpin288

22 mpg overall from 3.3 ltr V6 and 234 hp may not quite match the Toyota engine, but it ain't too shabby either!

tenpin288

My bad! That's what I get for copying and pasting a line I mistyped. :sick:

joe97

Did you even know the Sonata f/e before it was pointed out to you 1) it was not gas guzzling, as you claimed, and 2) it was up to snuff w/ competitors.

Get over yourself. Finally caught up? Lest I forgot the Lambda engine debuted years ago. And the second generation is coming with more hp and improve f/e.

Gas mileage wars? Who's fueling the gas mileage wars? I may have missed the memo but it's been the hp wars highly contested in recent years, and in the family sedans category Regardless, there certainly hasn't been a wave of gas mileage wars in the industry.

I am not exactly sure what Toyota has won, with others in the segment able to match up the numbers. Plus, the number of the V6 owners are in a much smaller circle than the overall midsize buyers.

Let's get back on topic. There is a thread called midsize sedans.

nvbanker

I can. Brand loyalty and the herding instinct are very powerful marketing phenomena. Besides that, the Camry is a darn good car.

I'm coming off here as a Hyundai "hater" and that is NOT the case! There is a beautiful silver/Blue 2007 Sonata sitting in my driveway as I write this. Ok, it's for sale, but I own it, ok?

I LIKE the Elantras and Sonata very much. I'll only opine on the Sonata here for simplicity. The Camry is the Gold Standard IMO for the class. It drives like butter, it's completely intuitive with the driver and gives you the least "driving experience" of any car on the planet. If you want to get somewhere cheaply, easily, quietly, smoothly, comfortably with no thoughts of breakdowns whatsoever for a half a zillion miles - then the Camry is for you. If you would like a close copy of all that, for quite a bit less, the Sonata is worth a look because that's what it gives you. It does all of the above, just not quite as well on all scores. It's almost as smooth, almost as quiet, almost as refined, almost as easy to drive, and we don't know yet about how long it will last, they are really too new to rate in the newest form. They may last just as long.

So, why would anybody pay the money for the Camry? Besides Toyota loyalty - if they have a keen ear and feel for quality, quiet, smoothness and vibration - but who the heck in this market does that??? No "driver" will buy one, they'll get an Accord, BMW or Mercedes, depending upon their money status.

As I've said a jillion times - Japan (Toyota) should be very scared right now, the Koreans are coming, followed by the Chinese. This of course, means the Americans are DOA.

backy

Let's get back on topic. There is a thread called midsize sedans.

Well, it was a good try though!

bobad

I'm sure I could buy many 100 HP engines and get 22 MPG easily But can you get 22 MPG with 270 HP?

Make that 233hp, on regular gas.

bobad

In 2006, when I bought my Sonata, it was the quietest car I test drove... including the Camry. After 2 years, it's still dead quiet, without a single squeek or rattle.

I think Hyundai has the formula down for a luxury car, and is quite capable of building it. Whether it would be accepted by the buying public is anyone's guess.

rv65

Japan just started getting lexus like a year ago so they are selling them here. They are doing a good job in sales.

andres3

I don't know why you specified Hyundai's are up to 233 HP and 22 MPG on REGULAR gas when all the Honda's and Toyota's here achieve their numbers with REGULAR gas as well.

nvbanker

There may be room in the market for Hyundai's luxobarge, but I'm not ready for one. Took me 15 years to accept Hyundai as a real car!

rockylee

See on insideline about the Genesis Coupe story ? :surprise:

-rockylee

bobad

There are already rumors of a V-8 only, longer wheelbase Genesis to come. It's rumored to be sized in the 7 Series and S Class range, and really tricked out.

joe97

V8 only sounds very likely, espeically considering the other engines in the Tau family (in addition to the 4.6L), 5.0 and 5.5 with superchargers

Can't wait to see the Genesis/BH coupe, albeit in concept format. The production should appear next year at the London auto show.

rv65

Those lwb genesis shots do have quite a bit of Azera in them. Could that be the facelifted Azera. Looks too big for an azera.

rv65

That car is the VI. Will replace the Korean Equus. No real plans to bring it stateside. Over in South Korea it's a 7 series and S-Class competitor. Maybe Hyundai will bring it here under a new brand. Maybe under the hyundai brand. As long as hyundai prices it right.

de77

Hyundai

Hyundai Motor Co., South Korea's largest automaker, said sales declined 0.8 percent in October to 30,232 vehicles. Its market share was unchanged at 2.5 percent.

``Hyundai is a bit of a puzzle,'' Toprak said. ``In an environment where consumers prefer small vehicles and they're looking for value, you'd think Hyundai would do better.''

Hyundai-controlled Kia Motors Corp. raised sales 25 percent to 25,185, led by gains for its Sportage SUV, Spectra sedan and Rondo wagon, the company said. Seoul-based Kia's market share improved to 2 percent from 1.7 percent a year ago.

Source: Bloomberg.com

backy

IMO it's sticker shock. I think Americans have been conditioned to expect huge rebates on Hyundais. Now that there's few rebates (on the 2008s), I think people are waiting for the rebates to return before buying. I certainly would!

Now, if Hyundai can deliver a competitive luxury sedan starting at $30k, that should be too much of a value proposition to ignore, rebates or no rebates.

kdshapiro

Now, if Hyundai can deliver a competitive luxury sedan starting at $30k, that should be too much of a value proposition to ignore, rebates or no rebates.

Wanna bet? There must be a reason Hyundai isn't doing better in the US, although I can only speak for myself it seems sales numbers tell the story.

fourteen14

"South Korea's largest automaker, said sales declined 0.8 percent in October to 30,232 vehicles."

SO WHAT!! I don't decide to buy, or not buy, a car or anything else based upon how many other people, who have their own criteria, decided to buy it! I make independent evaluations and decide what is best for ME!

Many people would consider Ferrari or Maserati or Rolls-Royce to be excellent cars although they have tiny sales volumes!

Just because the qualities of the latest Hyundais haven't been recognized by huge numbers of buyers, should not make them any less desirable!

Perhaps Hyundai should Raise their prices so potential buyers will say: "Gee, Hyundais must be great cars - look at how expensive they are!!".

backy

They have raised prices substantially in the past two years. I think that is a major factor holding down sales. Also why I think Genesis will help Hyundai's sales overall. If people get used to the idea of paying over $30k for a Hyundai, it will help them realize that other Hyundais are great values even if their prices are higher than they used to be and rebates are more scarce.

joe97

Wanna bet? There must be a reason Hyundai isn't doing better in the US, although I can only speak for myself it seems sales numbers tell the story.

If sales numbers tell the story, then everyone not selling on the level of GM, Chrysler, Toyota, and Ford in the US should just pack up their bags and go home.

Actually, a few reasons:

1) Demand - stagnant auto industry, almost every automaker is feeling the hurt. Brands that gain double digits like Kia this past month (some 20%+) are just unheard of, and before someone brings up, fleet or not.

2) Supply - Won currency, union strikes, etc - those are killing Hyundai and have greatly affected production. Last quarter it was actually quite on the strikes front (only a few occurred I think), and what happened, profit shot up some 40% or more (don't recall the actual figures).

3) Overall - brand perception. The whole point of the "Think About It" campaign, which covers variety of ads from overall branding to specific models. Hyundai is tackling such issue and needs to continue doing so.

Products AREN'T the issue (e.g. just reading around today, I have found a lot of people commenting on the Sonata F/L having one of the best interiors in the segment, if not the best). Getting people into the showroom is.

dajake

I've just got pictures from Korean website

http://bbs.auto.naver.com/nboard/read.php?board_id=car_korea&nid=25468

got ya!!!

mpuzach

I sure wish they'd show us the interior.

joe97

I have been told:

1) this isn't the final model

2) the NA-spec will be slightly differentiated from the S. Korean model

3) notice the "H" logo looks to be added on, possibly the plastic tape area seems to be adaptive cruise control testing.

This is also being discussed in its own thread, I believe.

hjc1

As shown sure doesn't light my fire
Looks like a blown up Azera
I hope this isn't the final version

ukraguy

http://board.wassada.com/iboard.asp?code=free_pds&mode=view&num=91111&page=0&vie- w=t&qtype=&qtext=

Wow. ^^

gagrice

I think that Lexus better be watching. That looks as good as anything the Lexus guys are selling. I can tell you I would much rather deal with our local Hyundai dealer than our Lexus dealer.

bobad

I think it's gorgeous. Can't wait to see one, and take it for a spin!

bigo08

to me it looks like a fusion of the BMW 5 and Lexus LS.

cdmuile

Could look a lot worse!

mcc6256

http://www.autoblog.com/photos/hyundai-genesis-in-the-buff/507860/

mpuzach

Thanks for posting. Frankly, I'm disappointed in Hyundai's lack of originality with the exterior styling. The front looks like a Lexus LS (previous generation, at that). From the side, it looks like an Infiniti G35 and the rear view is clearly meant to emulate a BMW 5 or 7 series. Couldn't the designers have come up with something original?

craigmri

I'm really hoping thats simply the new Azera and Not the Genesis! If it is the Genesis I'm really bummed as it looks little like what we thought it would.
http://jalopnik.com/cars/new-york-auto-show/new-york-auto-show-preview-hyundai-g- enesis-concept-++-now-with-pictures-247031.php

Craig

louiswei

It is the Genesis. Just look at the size and the side profile, from A to C pillar the production version is almost identical to the concept. What I don't understand is why would Hyundai uglified the grille and rear, headlights are understandable since the concept's don't look realistic in the first place anyway.

The Aston Martin rip-off looks much better than the current Bimmer rip-off IMO. If I am ripping off something I'll go for the best, what are they worrying about? Get sued by Aston Martin?