Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

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Comments

  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Yes, Hyundai sales are not flat world-wise but it is undeniable that in 2007, looks like Hyundai will fall short to their intended target: 500k units. US auto market is a funny and unique place so being successful else where in the world does not automatically guarantee successful here (ask Audi, VW and Hyundai) and vice versa (ask Lexus).

    So, of course we shouldn't overlook Hyundai's success throughout the world but let's also not singing the praise yet since they are still in an up hill climb here.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    I have a feeling that Mr. Chung has resolved to build on the proud Hyundai name, not change it like so many Hollywood starlets. I remember when the name "Toyota" didn't exactly roll off my tongue.

    If the Genesis has butter soft leather and big wide American-sized seats, buyers will sit in it long enough to appreciate the rest of the car. Otherwise, it will get a lukewarm reception.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Some of those vehicles on that list haven't been made in a decade. :confuse: I'd question how accurate that data is !!!! :confuse:

    -Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Saw some pics from November, and man !!!!!! :shades:

    -Rocky
  • hjc1hjc1 Member Posts: 183
    Great pictures..... I'll take it in black :=)
    I also like the interior
    Genesis should be a winner for Hyundai
  • mpuzachmpuzach Member Posts: 635
    Nice-looking interior; hopefully it's as good in person as it is in the pictures. I also like that the car has front parking assist.
  • scbobscbob Member Posts: 167
    This week I test drove a Lexus LS 460 and an Infiniti M35. the LS was super smooth, but at 64K should be. The 43K M35 did not ride a whole lot better than my Azera over the same roads. Lacked several of the important "toys" I like on my Azera.
    Point is that Hyuundai can compete if they make a line of cars that deliver on the promise. However, they need to get the cars right to start with and to market them.
    I see lots of Hyundai "Duh" and "think aobut it" ads. Neither one is trying to convince people to buy a car and would not get me to consider looking at Hyundai. Sell the cars, not the philosophy!
    Remember that Lexus, Acura and Infiniti stole customers from BMW, MB, Audi, etc. Hyundai can do it too by building better, more reliable cars than the others and selling them at a reasonable price.
    In case you haven't noticed Toyota and Lexus both have much higher mark ups than Hyundai and will not back off them. Best offer I got on the Lexus was $2,500 off full MSRP, leaving the dealer with a $5,500 profit and this during their December to Remember sales event.
    Merry Christmas to all and to all good night!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The front end reminds me of the previous Avalon, the way the headlights are set up. One big enclosure would look better.

    I liked the previous E-class so any change isn't change for the better.
  • hjc1hjc1 Member Posts: 183
    " I see lots of Hyundai "Duh" and "think about it" ads. Neither one is trying to convince people to buy a car and would not get me to consider looking at Hyundai. Sell the cars, not the philosophy! "

    The Duh campaign is a dud...... For those people who do not have a DSL or cable internet line it takes FOREVER to download. I agree with "scbob" on his comments
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    It's not about riding a whole lot better. A soft cushy Camry probably rides better than the Azera. And that would be my definition of riding better. But what is your definition of "rides better"?

    Leaving you all to ponder this. Happy Holidays!
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Hyundai has tried hard to sell their cars in the U.S., and sales are flat despite an almost entirely new slate of cars in the past 3 years. Their research has shown that the brand is a sticking point for many people to consider a Hyundai. For example, they've done "blind" tests in which the brand is masked on a Veracruz, and most people say they'd consider buying one. Then they reveal it's a Hyundai, and the percentage of potential buyers plummets. Hence the "think about it" ads that focus on the brand. I think Hyundai needs to do both: continue to extoll the virtues of their products, but also change perceptions of the brand. If people won't buy an Azera for $25k because they don't have a good opinion of the Hyundai brand, why would they buy a Genesis for $35k?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    If "soft and cushy" are your definition of a superior ride--and it appears that is so--then the Genesis, even the Azera, probably wouldn't interest you.
  • fourteen14fourteen14 Member Posts: 85
    Sounds like someone should be on Ebay looking for a 'nice riding' 1960 Buick!!

    My Dad had one! We called it 'Fat Albert'!! "Hey, Hey, Hey!!!!"
  • scbobscbob Member Posts: 167
    Rides better means not feeling road bumps in the seat, bouncing over every little bump, etc.. Read Christian Wardlaw review in Autobytel, reviews in Edmunds and in Cosumer Guide for the 2006/2007. They all point out the problem with harshness over small bumps being transferred to the cabin and seats and other suspension related problems. Kia did it better per one reviewer.
    Replacing the struts helped, but not totally.
    That's why Hyundai replaced the suspension for 2008 and advertises it as a new suspension.
    See this weeks Time magazine. Big Hyundai ad inside and on back cover. Average reader or person thinking about a new car wouldn't even know it was a car ad, much less get them to look at a Hyundai.
  • stushstush Member Posts: 62
    To all of the Hyundai bashers. Have you ever owned one? Driven one for 5 yrs or more. Sure, I agree that its not fare to compare a Veracruz to a Lexus. But, if I can get a vehicle that drives like and has the same standard equipment or optional at a huge savings I'm all for it. I can't wait to see this new Genesis. If I didn't have 3 kids, I would have to consider it. The sales may be flat in USA, (from what I'm reading here). But, they are at least introducing new models to market at a much quicker pace. I have an 02 Santa Fe and an 07 Entourage. The SF has been bullet proof. Have had some common problems that the Entourage is having (as to forums), but the dealer has stepped up to the plate every time. A grand slam so to speak. To base your opinion on whats written here, or just a gut feeling about this manufacturer, I think you need to own one for a few years to have an opinion that will hold water!
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    The US economy played a big factor. At the end of the day, few automakers will be very optimistic with the results of 07, and the outlook for 08 is even dimmer across the board. Of course, there are certain exceptions, such as Kia, which certainly had a very healthy '07 (Rondo arrived just in time, I'd say), picking up the slack for mostly flat (slight increase) Hyundai sales in the US otherwise.
  • fourteen14fourteen14 Member Posts: 85
    Yeah, this sure is a terrible economy! Low inflation, high employment, low unemployment, low taxes, high services, no homeland attacks since 9/11, near record high stock markets, highest home ownership in history, over 97% of families still paying their mortgages on time, while we are beating the terrorists on their home ground with minimal loss of American lives!! Boy, it would be really bad to have another year like this one!!! Gee, my total portfolio was only up 34.4%, and one fund up 77.6%, YTD as of 10/31!!!! With an economy like this, I'm amazed that anyone is buying new cars!!!!! (Luckily we have a good president and a 'do nothing' congress!)

    But, I think that Hyundai is more optimistic than you, and, if they keep building fine cars like the Azera, they may do very well indeed!!!!!! I'd like to buy another car, but I can't seem to find any that, for our needs, are superior to our '6 Azera!

    PS: I've read some complaints here about Azera gas mileage, but on a recent 77 mile round trip, I averaged 31MPG on regular at 66MPH!! Many so-called 'economy cars' don't do much better than that!!!

    .
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Good for you!! That still doesn't dismiss the cloudy picture painted for the rest of the population, however - unstable economy (and outlook), erratic stock market, devastating housing market with foreclosures going off the roof, etc etc... The auto industry overall is predicted to have a much lower 2008, likely lowest in (many) years. True or not when we find out next year, it is still prediction based on current conditions, which aren't great on an overall level.

    On another note, the Azera is indeed a fantastic vehicle, only if more people would discover such...
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    It is sort of fun to read a doomsday article now and then - totally unrelated to Hyundai, but:

    Crisis may make 1929 look a 'walk in the park' (Telegraph.co.uk)

    Meanwhile "Hyundai faces significant challenges going into 2008 with pricing that some consider aggressive in the face of Japanese competition and very high levels of production from its Montgomery, Ala., plant, where it makes the Sonata sedan and Santa Fe sport utility vehicle.

    A significant piece of its strategy will be the introduction of its first luxury sedan, the Genesis. "They know they have to move their products upmarket," said Todd Turner, president of Car Concepts Inc., a car consulting firm. "Hyundai is desperate to build upon their image."

    Whether or not the Genesis, and a sports car relative of it known as the Genesis Coupe, sell well, Hyundai may be forced to offer significant price discounts on its remaining fleet to increase sales volume in 2008. Analysts expect total U.S. sales of cars and light trucks to reach about 15.5 million next year, significantly lower than projected 2007 sales of 16 million."

    LA Times
  • cdmuilecdmuile Member Posts: 152
    Joe,
    Don't buy the "Gloom and Doom" predictions. Steady as she goes. Don't panic and dump your investments. These minor setbacks are normal in a slowing economy. A wise old investor said "the stock market tends to fluxuate". Look at the large picture. The world economy is doing great. We are part of that economy.

    Genesis will sell to the people looking at a quality vehicle if the quality and price get their attention. Hopefully, worldwide!
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    fourteen14,

    I'm with you on the economy. People see normal blips in a few indicators and extrapolate that to everything. I don't think Joe97 meant that everything is gloom and doom, just that there are adjustments here and there that could be a factor to some car buyers.

    We shall see. It's only a month or so before Genesis debuts. I think it will cause quite a stir among the car enthusiasts and the enthusiast trade magazines. What I don't know is how it will resonate with the average car buyer with $30-$45K to spend. Judging by Hyundai's last 3-4 releases, I think those who actually drive the car will be very impressed.

    Merry Christmas and Happy New Year, guys and gals!
  • fourteen14fourteen14 Member Posts: 85
    You can't surf on flat water, or make money with a flat stock market! Down days are buying opportunities, while up days are profit days!

    It's like the old bumper jack that lifted the car up two notches then lowered it one. Although the car went up and down along the way, the important thing was that it eventually got lifted to where you wanted it!

    If the economy is indeed slowing, that only means that there will be more people who may enjoy owning a luxury car but will not be comfortable paying Lexus or BMW prices. They may look around and discover that even on their limited budgets they can still afford a fine luxury car if it's built in Korea rather than in Japan or Germany!!
    If the economy remains good, more people driving mundane cars may find that they can next drive a fine luxury car for about what a plain Ford, Chevy, or Honda would cost!
    In either scenario, the outlook for Azera and Genesis should be bright!

    .
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    You can't surf on flat water

    Sure you can - Banshee Riverboards (I given this outfit at least 3 plugs here and I still haven't gotten an invite to try one out).

    I bet a Hyundai luxo-barge would make a good shuttle vehicle. :shades:
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    or make money with a flat stock market

    Sure you can, you just have to know how to do it.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Riverboarding looks fun. In about 1963 I drove to Caldwell Idaho to visit my folks. We would get on water skis and go up the irrigation canals being pulled by an old truck. It would be classy to do that behind a Genesis :shades:
  • dborthdborth Member Posts: 474
    re 1045: "Hyundai is desperate to build upon their image."

    Better they be "desperate" to upgrade their bottom feeding US dealer network. Who in their right mind will even consider 35-40K at a flying H dealer?
  • fourteen14fourteen14 Member Posts: 85
    ""Who in their right mind will even consider 35-40K at a flying H dealer? ""

    Anyone who realizes that a similar car with a European nametag may cost 40-50K!!

    There seems to be an assumption on this forum that the 'rich' are vain and stupid! Most 'rich' folks in this country do not flaunt their wealth or piss it away. People do not become rich, or stay rich, by being stupid or vain! They do so by making wise financial decisions, and that would include not paying $50K for a $40K car!! Ask any luxury car saleman how often some 'rich guy' comes in and buys a car without checking the price and trying to negotiate a better deal! I'll bet not many!!

    PS: These foreclosures and lower real estate prices may not be good for some people, but there are other people who will now be able to afford to buy a home that was priced out of their reach before!
    The people with ARM didn't complain about initially paying less interest than their neighbors. They knew that these were ADJUSTABLE, but bought houses that they really couldn't afford anyway. They may even have thought that their neighbors were fools for paying extra to get a Fixed Rate mortgage! Now they are being struck with economic reality, and they don't like it!!
    Meanwhile, perhaps some of the folks that made wise decisions will be able to buy a better home at a lower price, or a quality car for a lot less money!!

    .
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Anyone who realizes that a similar car with a European nametag may cost 40-"50K!! "

    I see your point. But it's like saying a Hyundai Excel is similiar to a 750. Or an Accord is similiar to a TL.

    "Most 'rich' folks in this country do not flaunt their wealth or piss it away."

    I don't know what the "rich" do, I only know what my wealthy associates do. And yes, some of them do as you put it, piss away their minory. This includes buying real luxury vehicles. So I am not sure of what your point is. Are you saying the rich will flock to the Genesis because it is a direct replacement for a 550i at a fraction of the price?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Are you equating the Excel to the Genesis? That seems to be what you are doing. Why you would want to do that, I have no idea. You might as well compare a skateboard to a Bentley.

    Actually, there is some similarity between the Accord and TL. They are roughly the same size, they are from the same company, and I would not be surprised if there were shared components.
  • cruiser69cruiser69 Member Posts: 40
    "You might as well compare a skateboard to a Bentley."

    LOL, good point. Like you, i dont see anything wrong with Hyundai trying to compete in the luxury car segment. Sounds to me like anyone badmouthing the attempt before they even try is just scared to face the fact that a newcomer may actually make something better then the same old three nameplate luxury game. Competition keeps you creative. Plus Lexus, Mercedes, and BMW have had the same looking cars for years. Yes, they do redesign them but they are more evolutionary rather than revolutionary. Its simply the look at me, im important senerio. There is an old saying in the car business..."anyone can lease". I know a couple people who work at a major bank and they told me when seeing peoples checking accounts and saving accounts that the flashier the car they pull up in is, the lower the account balances. A lot of people with 'Real" money, like grossing over a million a year, usually stay low key so no one asked to borrow money from them.

    I encourage Hyundai to continue its quest to enter the luxury market. That way when your 30 some thousand dollar Genesis blows past a 5 Series, you can laugh all the way to the bank.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    " encourage Hyundai to continue its quest to enter the luxury market. That way when your 30 some thousand dollar Genesis blows past a 5 Series, you can laugh all the way to the bank."

    A souped up Neon could blow past certain 5-series, but I'd rather still drive the 5 series. A big engine does not a luxury car make.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "You might as well compare a skateboard to a Bentley."

    Good point. One can compare anything to anything. But here in the real world just saying it doesn't make it so.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Genesis will be at U.S. dealers soon. Then you can see for yourself that it's not just talk, and if you want, you can actually compare the Genesis to your favorite luxury car(s), rather than comparing a 20-year-old subcompact Hyundai model to a BMW luxo-cruiser.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    We shall see, we shall see.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    A souped up Neon could blow past certain 5-series, but I'd rather still drive the 5 series. A big engine does not a luxury car make.

    Are you saying that besides a good engine, the Genesis has nothing?

    I suggest you wait and give the car a through, impartial (yea, right!) test drive instead of condemning it before it even hits the street.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    You already have the Genesis beating the 5 series in it's mission as a luxury sports sedan and price on content. While it could rain chickens, Hyundai could also produce a better and faster 5 series for 30% of the price. Lexus, Infiniti and Acura are in this game and it took years to develop their product line and they don't beat BMW at their own game, yet. Hyundai is going to do this the first time? Yes the car needs an honest, impartial(yea right) evaluation.

    It might be a very nice entry level luxury sporty sedan.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I don't think beating BMW out of the chute is Hyundai's plan. But consider... Hyundai/Kia has already matched if not beaten Toyota at its "own game" in economy cars (compare the Corolla to the Elantra), family cars (compare the Camry LE to the like-priced Sonata SE or the Optima EX), and SUVs (compare the Veracruz to the Highlander). Is it such a reach that Hyundai won't be able to compete strongly with Lexus, Infiniti, and Acura with the Genesis?
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    don't think beating BMW out of the chute is Hyundai's plan

    I didn't say it was, but that is the sentiment on this board. The Elantra beats out the Corolla in the same way the Civic does. But the Corolla is the leader in this segment. The Sonota is not as nice as the Camry, but it is also less money. There are those who say the Veracruz is a better RX350 at $10K less. Yeah right. It may be a better value at $10K less, like a Timex is a better value than a Rolex at $69990 less.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    There are those who say the Veracruz is a better RX350 at $10K less. Yeah right. It may be a better value at $10K less, like a Timex is a better value than a Rolex at $69990 less.

    I think it was a major auto mag that made the comparison between the RX and Veracruz. I would take the Veracruz over the RX if I wanted a mini SUV. I can also afford a Rolex. I happen to think they are a TOTAL waste of money. I will keep using my cheapo Casio that keeps close enough time for all my needs. Plus it has a handy calculator for figuring gas mileage. If the Genesis were to come out of the gate and be compared by a major magazine to one of the Lexus or BMWs, it would make for interesting debate.
  • dean3927dean3927 Member Posts: 80
    If anyone's interested, here's the official Genesis info site, complete with commercial footage, catalog shots and driving/interview videos:
    http://www.the-genesis.co.kr/
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Question: have you driven both the current Corolla and Elantra? Have you driven the current Camry vs. a like-priced Sonata or Optima? Have you driven the RX350 vs. the Veracruz? If so, that's commendable that you back up your opinions with experiential data. If not, why are you so quick to belittle the opinions of professional car reviewers who have done these kinds of comparisons?

    It's easy to say comparing Hyundai's top-end offering today, the Veracruz, to a Lexus is like comparing a Timex to a Rolex. It's another thing to back it up with real experience, or at least with professional opinion.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    By your logic this board would be devoid of commentary since most people have not driven the Genesis. In fact Edmunds would probably be a ghost town.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I can also afford a Rolex

    I happen to like expensive watches, My Vacheron doesn't get enough usage for sure. I don't need a gas calculator.

    Any magazine can put any word on a piece of paper and have it be a modicum of truth. The real story will come out in time.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I don't need a gas calculator.

    You are probably not as cheap as I am. I like to know what my vehicles use. Not that it makes any difference in what I drive. A friend bought one of those gold Rolex watches. Then bought a $25 knock-off in Hong Kong that looks the same. He wears the cheap one and the expensive Rolex is in the gun safe. That I consider a waste.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that if someone makes statements that liken Hyundai's luxury offerings to a 20-year-old subcompact or a $25 watch, it would be nice if there were some basis for that opinion other than what seems to be a personal bias.

    To put it another way: what do you think the response would be on the Toyota-oriented discussions if someone were to post there every other day or so, "Toyotas are overpriced hunks of junk!" in those words and similar words, without any substantiation? That person would be entitled to his/her opinion too, right?
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    You already have the Genesis beating the 5 series in it's mission as a luxury sports sedan and price on content. While it could rain chickens, Hyundai could also produce a better and faster 5 series for 30% of the price. Lexus, Infiniti and Acura are in this game and it took years to develop their product line and they don't beat BMW at their own game, yet. Hyundai is going to do this the first time? Yes the car needs an honest, impartial(yea right) evaluation.

    I don't think I said that. In fact, I don't even think that... not yet. ;)

    Acura, Infiniti, and especially Lexus were pioneers in the American near luxury market. They had to learn everything the hard way. If they would have had 3 excellent cars to learn from like Genesis did, it wouldn't have taken them nearly as long to advance.

    BTW, although I consider the 5 Series a great driving car, the quality does not impress me. BMW simply can't hang with the above Japanese cars. Things start falling off way too soon. My Son's 5 Series makes all sorts of drive line noise. The fancy mirror on his M Coupe leaked some kind of goo, and nearly ruined his seats and carpet. Luckily it was still in warranty... by 1 week!

    Happy New Year!
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    BMW simply can't hang with the above Japanese cars

    Your right, they are ahead of them by miles in one regard, and equal in other.. Should I post some links that I have to Lexus, Infiniti, Acura and Hyundai lemon buybacks? We could get into it to see who can hang with who.
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    I'm sure BMW and Mercedes-Benz have their fair share of lemon buybacks, particularly when Mercedes had reliability and electrical problems a few years ago.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Your right, they are ahead of them by miles in one regard, and equal in other.. Should I post some links that I have to Lexus, Infiniti, Acura and Hyundai lemon buybacks? We could get into it to see who can hang with who. \

    I'm calling you on that. Show me where BMW has fewer buybacks than the Japanese cars.

    BMW has nice coach work, but their electrical, electronic, and mechanicals simply don't hold up. The Japanese cars are far more reliable beyond 3-4 years. Cost of ownership absolutely skyrockets on the 5 Series, but not the Japanese cars.

    Hyundai is an unknown at this point. They made their turnaround with the 2006 models, and it's about a year too early to tell yet. The NF Sonatas, Azeras, Santa Fe's, and Veracriz's are doing great so far. I think the newer models will do even better.
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