Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

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Comments

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    They made their turnaround with the 2006 models...

    Actually, the turnaround started in 1999 with Hyundai's change in focus from low price to quality and reliability. That's also when the long-term warranty debuted. The first models to benefit directly from that refocusing were the 2000 Accent and the all-new 2001 Santa Fe and Gen 3 Elantra, followed by the 2002 Sonata and then the "7x24" cars (actually more like 8x24) that started rolling out in 2004. So the turnaround started long before 2006.

    The Gen 1 Santa Fe and Gen 3 Elantra have held up very well, as have the other cars you noted. I have to think that Hyundai has a laser focus on quality on the Genesis, given all that is riding on it.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I'm calling you on that. Show me where BMW has fewer buybacks than the Japanese cars

    I'll call you on that, and further to show where there are mass defections to prove your point.
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    buy back a lot of the 2002 7-Series because the iDrive kept malfunctioning or something?

    I know Mercedes bought back a lot of the early 2003 E-Classes because of electrical problems..
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Yes BMW some mistakes with that model. Let's not forget the junk Hyundai manufactured or the mistakes Toyota/Lexus made. Todays 750i is not the same as the 2002 7 series. Just like todays Hyundai is not the same as one manufactured 10 years ago.

    But that has nothing to do with the original point. "light years" ahead is relative depending on how narrowly one might define the term.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Actually, the turnaround started in 1999 with Hyundai's change in focus from low price to quality and reliability.

    Yes, it started there, but they made an even stronger commitment in the 2006 MY. I think people will start to recognize low mileage used 2006+ Hyundai's as safe buys, and tremendous bargains. I expect resale values to begin inching up.
  • lasberrylasberry Member Posts: 12
    Wouldn't a move like that emit mixed brand image? I mean, congruency will come with the lower cost vehicles but a "bargain luxury brand" is paradoxical per se. Luxury assumes that consumers buy because they have the resources, not because they made economic decisions.

    Hyundai should perfect its marketplace and brand image now before undertaking such an arduous and expensive task. I love my 07 Santa Fe and my next vehicle will be a Genesis Coupe. I just think two more years in direct competition against Tohondan will hone its skill.
  • drdonrsdrdonrs Member Posts: 164
    I'm a little late to this conversation but owning 2 Hyundai vehicles I will have my say. Before I bought my 06 Sonata LXV6 and than my 06 Azera Limited I leased several Acura TL's and a Legend. I also leased a Diamante, Nissan, Sterling and for some time drove Buick Electra's until the quality deteriorated. The point being that as a senior citizen I see so much badge snobbery, especially in the upscale suburb that I live in. My take is that these cars that I own and not lease are amongst the finest I have ever driven. Sure, I've had some suspension noise but a better than best Service Manager at "my" dealership takes good care of me and my cars. I am anxiously awaiting the introduction of the Genesis and if Hyundai can approach the marketing and selling aspect with a little more insight than has been the case with the Azera I think it will be a great success. Many of you "youngsters" may not remember when Toyota and Nissan brought out their Lexus and Infinity to compete head-on, and try to make inroads against the German "beasties. Has anyone looked at recent Consumer Reports and seen all the black circles accompanying the Mercedes? Have you seen and heard of the massive recalls of some Lexus models and Camry's to add to the mix. Let's try and take the blinders off and see that a flying H is beginning to represent quality. Back in the early 60's I owned a Toyota Corolla(no Camry's then) and I bought the first model Celica. The quality was atrocious, those early Toyota's rusted out within a years time. So Toyota overcame those early blunders and all was forgiven. In essence Hyundai has made faster progress and they are turning out fine cars and the step into the main ring with the "heavies" should be a smooth one. I for one am thoroughly pleased with the fact that I switched to Hyundai. :)
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Many of you "youngsters

    Hmm. Since you replied to me, I submit you have no idea how old I am. Badge snobbery? Sounds more like badge jealously! While I'm glad you are happy with your car, you miss the point of why people might buy luxury cars. If people really remembered all the issues of car manufacturers, Hyundai wouldn't sell one vehicle. Since cars from Lexus fly off the dealers floors, people don't share the same view you put forth in your post.
  • drdonrsdrdonrs Member Posts: 164
    You are right I don't know how old you are and that comment "youngsters" was just a generalization and not aimed at you or anyone else. I guess we won't solve this diversity in opinions. Suffice to say that there are a fair number of Azera owners who have indeed owned "big names" in the past and are very satisfied with this car. I count myself in that group. :)
  • mpuzachmpuzach Member Posts: 635
    "Suffice to say that there are a fair number of Azera owners who have indeed owned "big names" in the past and are very satisfied with this car. I count myself in that group."

    I'm with you, drdonrs. I consider myself a bit of a "car snob" in that I've owned plenty of high-end European cars and I genuinely appreciate what they offer over most of their domestic counterparts. Having said that, I can say without hesitation that I'm extremely pleased with my 2007 Santa Fe Limited AWD.

    Face it, there are people who will never acknowledge that there are any decent cars out there besides BMW and Lexus; some of those people visit this forum quite frequently.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I know people who are satisified with a 10 year Corolla and others who get a new S500 every year. There is a car out there for everyone. Luxury vehicles offer a vehicle experience not duplicated in non-luxury vehicles. That one is satisified with what they drive is an entirely different subject. :P
  • slamtazslamtaz Member Posts: 55
    There will always be a lot of mudslinging with regards to whether a certain car model qualifies as a luxury car or not, or whether it's simply a matter of badge snobbery/jealousy as it maybe purported to be.

    As i understand it, luxury is supposed to be "something beyond the reasonable standard". Examples i may think of are:

    1. For fuel; if your car needs 87 octane as reasonable/standard, putting in 89 octane is considered luxury.
    2. For tires; if your car needs "H"rated/regular profile for reasonable/standard traction, putting in "Z" rated/low profile is considered luxury.
    3. For wheels; if your car needs "steel" to keep it rolling in a reasonable/standard manner, having alloy wheels is considered luxury.
    4. For midsize engines; if cars need an average of 200-250hp to perform in a reasonable/standard manner, having more than 300hp is considered luxury.

    The list may go on, and it really depends on what a particular person considers standard or reasonable need. For an ordinary commuter, something that have what it takes to bring us from point A to B in a reasonably safe, efficient, name-it, is considered standard, so putting something in the car that is beyond what it takes to do what is needed as a standard is supposedly considered luxury to this person. Of course, to a car enthusiast, the standards maybe different and in the same manner, for a race car fanatic, it's also different.

    The thing here, if i may say, is how manufacturers peg what they consider as their target luxury market. And should they succeed in addressing the luxury needs of their target market, they should expect reasonable success. As for Hyundai, i sure hope they have done their research before attempting to enter into the "luxury" arena, as these will definitely tell a lot as to how they will address the needs of their targeted market (i.e. you may or may not be one of them) and if they do succeed, i guess they will have the right to do so as others (e.g. japanese counterparts) have attempted and done so in the past.

    In this respect, i submit that everyone's entitle to what they consider as luxury, simply because each and everyone in this board have their very own set standards in life. And speaking of standards, i believe that there is a very wide spectrum out there, such that there may or may not be agreements between them. That's perfectly normal, as long as we all respect the views of other person and not trying to impose our own mind sets, as the gospel truth" to anyone else. :shades:

    just my 2 cents.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    By your reckoning, if a $25K car can serve your needs with sufficient comfort, style, and driving characteristics, then a $35K car is a luxury. I tend to agree.

    That said, I have absolutely nothing against buying expensive cars. I do have issues with the reason that some people buy expensive cars. If a person compares and test drives, then buys for looks, comfort, handling, etc, I'm fine with that. If a person buys simply because he likes to grin and flash the badge, it's another matter. That's usually a big waste of money.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    That's usually a big waste of money.

    I'm sure the car companies breathed a sigh of relief that that post of course, is in your humble opinion. I frankly don't give a hoot about how people spend their money. When I give them their allowance I will have a say in their spending.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    The tone of your response tells me that you probably bought a German car and got burned. If that's the case, welcome to the club. I learned from my mistakes, so I'm not bitter about it.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    image

    3.3L V6 268hp
    3.8L V6 290hp
    Aisin 6 speed transmission

    4.6L V6 368hp (375 on premium)
    ZF 6 speed transmission

    All run on regular unleaded gas.

    Some of the features:

    Electronic active front head restraints
    Electronic Stability Control
    Eight airbags
    Heated / cooled seats
    High Intensity Discharge (HID) headlamps with adaptive leveling
    Adaptive Front Lighting System
    Push-button start
    Navigation with backup camera
    Electric parking brake
    Standard Bluetooth technology
    iPod/USB auxiliary inputs
    HD Radio™ receiver
    XM Satellite Radio® with NavTraffic
    Lexicon® Discrete Surround Audio Systems
    Automatic windshield defogger with humidity sensor
    Rain-sensing wipers
    Smart cruise control
    Five-link front and rear suspension
    Tau V8 engine
    6-speed transmissions

    More: http://www.carspyshots.net/showthread.php?t=14287&page=21
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    It looks like a lxury car, is equipped like a luxury car, has the quality and engineering of a luxury car. Alas, it's not expensive enough to be a luxury car. The good news is, you're free to add $15K to the dealer's check and make it a real luxury car. ;)

    All kidding aside, I'm impressed with the standard features. I can't wait to drive one!
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    So, the US-spec versions get the 3.3L V6? Interesting.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Not the case. I bought a German car and couldn't believe how easy it was to own...and drive. With one warrany repair relating to the antenna lead.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Actually it looks like a Mercedes ripoff.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Smart move, the MB are far better looking than Lexus, BMW or Audi.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Depends on which model you are referring to and in which price range.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Actually it looks like a Mercedes ripoff.

    The Genesis team wants to beat the competition, not copy them. There are 1000's of car designs, and all cars remind us of some other car. Think about it.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Agreed
  • fourteen14fourteen14 Member Posts: 85
    ""Actually it looks like a Mercedes ripoff.""

    The other day at the Mall I saw a very nice Mercedes. This Genesis looks a lot like that! Let's see:

    4 Mag Wheels CHECK!!
    4 Black Tires CHECK!!
    4 Doors CHECK!!
    2 Mirrors CHECK!!
    Chrome Grill CHECK!!
    Fog Lamps CHECK!!
    Painted Black CHECK!!

    OH NO!! YOU ARE RIGHT! IT IS A TOTAL MERCEDES RIPOFF!!!! How could they do that! I hope Mercedes sues their butt off! Shocking! Seven major items just like a Mercedes! Shocking!!!
    .
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,498
    I don't see any MB in it...it's very Lexus/Infiniti-ish.

    No flying H on the grille!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That front view, especially the headlights, remind me of the Acura RL.

    The side view is more Infiniti M.

    Doesn't matter, the Koreans have done well despite derivative styling (not because of it).
  • carbuyer11carbuyer11 Member Posts: 114
    I agree with your assessment. It's an RL from the front (hope it sells better- the RL has been a disaster for Acura- sold a little more than 6000 for the entire year of 2007- sales down 45%) and an Infiniti from the side.

    The list of features is very impressive. I wish a couple of them could have found their way into the Veracruz (like the HID headlights).
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yeah, for the expected price, it should be a great value. I don't think too many people will care what it looks like.

    Veracruz hasn't done much volume but the few that bought them seem very satisfied.

    I think a V8 and RWD will get the attention Hyundai needs.
  • richcalrichcal Member Posts: 1
    very well put kdshapiro. i think that Hyundai is doing a great job. considering where they were a decade or so ago. a rwd V8 will only help them. granted it might not be exactly what's needed to compete with other manufactorers (especially fine german cars) but it is a step in the right direction. plus, they are still working on establishing themselves as a valid contender. i know my idea of Hyundai has drastically changed. heck, i used to consider them just about Kia. now some models are better than gm cars that have had generations to revamp themselves.
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,422
    I saw the pics. I definately see more Lexus or Infiniti than MB. I haven't in the past been a luxury buyer but if it drives like it looks and I can really get that for 30k, I'm all over that
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Interesting that the US will get 3 engines.

    Figure 30k for the 3.3l, 32k for the 3.8l, and maybe 35k or so for the V8.

    Still, let's see, an M45 costs $49,750 base with no options.

    They may end up cross-shopped with the G8 as well, though my guess is that will be sportier but not as luxurious.

    Doubters should sit in a Veracruz. Next time you go to a car show, sit inside one. The Azera was a good effort, but the Veracruz is even better. Also, those 2 vehicles got customers used to the idea of a Hyundai price over 30k. An Azera Limited with option group 25 breaks $30 grand, and a Veracruz Limited with AWD is priced over $36 grand.

    Now that I look at those prices, the Genesis could cost a bit more. I bet a Limited V8 model will run $39,750 or something like that.
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Member Posts: 2,697
    Not nearly as sporty as I was expecting from the concept car. No competition to BMW whatsoever.
    Looks like a Lincoln alternative boulevard cruiser for people 60+. Interior looks like an Infiniti.
    Even the new Cadillac CTS is much sportier than this.
  • allthatblueallthatblue Member Posts: 29
    agreed too,

    i hardly find car makers which maintain unique originality of their own.
    these days, every car maker seems to consider other maker's design cues in styling its new car.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Not nearly as sporty as I was expecting from the concept car. No competition to BMW whatsoever

    Wait until you see the Coupe. ;)
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    every car maker seems to consider other maker's design cues in styling its new car.

    Believe me, that's not intentional. I don't think any car maker want to have copycat styling. They all try to create unique styling without being impractical or departing too radically from current styling norms. That leaves designers very little leeway to create a new design. Parts of every car's styling inevitably resembles parts of others.

    Pictures are nice, but don't convey the "attitude". I want to see how the Genesis looks on the street.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Nice story with photos on the Coupe in the current (?) C/D. They are pretty bullish on it. The car in the photos is the "concept", but they are clear that only a few parts such as the hood and wheels won't make production.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Those photos are better. Now the front lights resemble Hyundai's own Veracruz a bit more.

    Where's the logo? Weird.

    A tiny bit of Bangle Butt in the trunk, but that's not fair - the Elantra had that feature before BMW used it. So that's Hyundai's own look.

    Note the chrome strip on the lower passenger side door is misaligned. You'll see that in several photos, too. On the black car only. The silver one is fine.

    In the close-up of the tail light there appear to be flaws in one of the seams below it, as well.

    The taillights look like the Veracruz, though.

    Interior looks good. Check out the stitching and the leather. Not bad. Big nav screen, too.

    Dash reminds me of the Entourage Limited. Steering wheel could be nicer, looks too plasticky around the horn and buttons. Gotta see it in person.

    Roomy back seat, but definitely just for 3. That hump looks decidedly uncomfortable for the middle passenger.

    I take it back - it doesn't really look like the RL when you see all those photos. I bet in person, and in 3D, it won't resemble the RL nearly as much.

    I dunno, folks, everyone here is saying copycat, but many of the cues I see up close in these new photos are pure, 100% Hyundai. Just bigger and nicer.
  • azgrandazgrand Member Posts: 50
    Nice looking interior, for sure. The exterior looks a lot like the Azera to me, though.
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,422
    I saw an S class this morning and it struck me that it does look similar in the front. The shape of the headlights is very similar.

    I think that the Koreans have succeeded entirely because of their derivative styling. It seems like you're getting the same for less

    image
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I see more Lexus LS in the headlight than either the S-class and RL.
  • mpuzachmpuzach Member Posts: 635
    "Wait until you see the Coupe."

    Yeah, but it's too bad it won't come with a V8.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Not when the V6 pumps out 300+, it also adds unnecessary weight to a sports coupe.
  • fourteen14fourteen14 Member Posts: 85
    ""The exterior looks a lot like the Azera to me, though.""

    Not the back. It's the "bustle butt" and large tail lights that make the Azera stand out! The Genesis needs that crooked H to distinguish its tail from dozens of similar rearends! The Genesis should be a great car to own, but it may be hard to find in the parking lot!!

    I think it is elegant to not have a big emblem on the hood or grill.

    I guess 'luxury' cars aren't suppose to be flashy. If that's true, Genesis is indeed a 'luxury' car!

    Why do they always show new designs in black, so its hard to see the new design!??! Silver is too popular, but at least you can tell what the sheetmetal looks like!!
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Watch when the production version comes out, the naysayers will put the hammer down and say how it is so much washed down from the concept, when in reality the concept is a tuner car. Hyundai has indicated the concept at the LA Auto Show is a tricked out version of the upcoming coupe, what the aftermarket crowd might do on the car. Similarly on the sedan, Hyundai had said the front and back would be changed from the concept to the production.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    I think that the Koreans have succeeded entirely because of their derivative styling.

    Entirely because of their derivative styling? That might be a stretch to pull off. How about value, warranty, and quality, to name a few. And, as for the styling, eye of the beholder but I think many can agree there are a good amount of unique styling in Hyundai's fleet.

    The flip side of the argument, how many cars these days don't have derivative styling? Few.
  • cdmuilecdmuile Member Posts: 152
    The question is: How in the hell could the shirts have allowed that black one with the terribly misaligned rubbing strip to go out for the press shots? People in charge of these things have been fired for a lot less. Remember the launch of the Jaguar XK when the car was rolled out with one headlight out? Interesting to note that press guy now works for India's Tata.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    OK, I placed them side by side and looked at them together.

    Hyundai does seem to use a Mercedes-like grille, minus the 3 pointed star of course.

    I don't think the headlights are similar, though. Benz is very triangular, and Hyundai's isn't at all. The Genesis' headlight is pulled back far more, sharper, and doesn't look triangular. Also, the front of the Benz has that severe fender flare, almost Mazda RX8-like, while the Genesis has a fairly genric looking flat flare over the front wheels.

    Beyond the grille they really don't have much in common.
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