Synthetic motor oil

highroller

Since it's most likely that GC 0w-30 wont be on most of the AZ shelves anymore, i'll give M1 0w-40 a try (i'll use it for at least 2 OCI's first to get rid of any GC remaining) and will hopefully post a UOA of it sometime in the future on this board and on Bitog.

shipo

What'd I miss?

I've been beyond busy for the last several months and haven't hit BITOG probably since January. Why did AutoZone drop GC?

Best Regards,
Shipo

highroller

AA dropped GC because lack of sells, popularity, and shelf space. I think it's primarily due to the fact that not many vehicles are spec'ed for 0W-30. Their 5w-30 and 10w-30 lines sells more than 0w-30. Castrol Syntec 0w-30 is being "discontinued". So basically, it'll just sell the remaining stock until it runs out. Right now some people can get it on sale. Im thinking of other options besides Mobil 1 0w-40 like ELF, Redline, or even Amsoil to hopefully do a UOA on... I hate to mail order unless i see that it's reasonable enough to do so (cost and quality-wise).

paisan

GC?

shipo

GC=German made (says so right on the label) Castrol Syntec 0W-30. Of the Castrol Syntec lineup, it is the only fully PAO based Group IV synthetic oil available here in the U.S., all the rest are hydrocracked Group III oils.

Best Regards,
Shipo

smokey75

I thought you always felt Mobil 1 was not a group III hydrocracked. Change your mind?

shipo

Uhhh, what?

No, haven't changed my mind at all, I'm still a fan of Mobil 1 0W-40 and still use it in our cars. What gave you the idea that I'd changed my thinking?

Best Regards,
Shipo

smokey75

Oops sorry... just caught the "Of the Castrol Syntec lineup" part of your post. Thought you were saying it was the only group IV. Had me worried about Mobil 1 for a minute... :P

shipo

Ahhhh, mystery solved. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

highroller

Hey Shipo, i forgot but how much did yours sheared when using M1 0W-40? As you may have already known, usually M1 0w-40 starts at the less end of the 40 wt at 14.3 (cST viscocity @100C)and then usually goes down to around 11.3-11.9 (cST viscocity @100C)over a period of time driving.

paisan

Any thoughts on Amsoil (the more expensive stuff, not the XL7500)? I've been using it in my trucks and cars and am a dealer but curious what the gurus out there think of it.

-mike

pulgo

I am a preferred customer myself because I want to buy at dealer prices. I have been using ASL (5W-30) full synthetic for years with outstanding results, with 15 to 25K OCI's. I also have all my vehicles equipped with the dual filter (by-pass) setup.

I have tried Mobil 1. In my particular case Amsoil works better.

I understand that most folks don't buy Amsoil because of their marketing method. Nevertheless I would suggest giving it a try and have the oil analyzed after the oil change and decide based strictly on the results of the analisis.

ind55

Two weeks ago I took delivery of my new car. In the past I have used Mobil 1 on two previous cars, but this time I decided to experiment and purchased Amsoil ASL 5w-30. I still have some Mobil 1 around and conventional 5w-30 oil that I use in the snowblower. I opened the gallon jug of the Amsoil and when I ran a couple of drops between my fingers, I noticed that it is significantly thinner than Mobil 1. It concerns me that it will maintain or if possible improve its viscosity during summer heat with the A/C on. I was wondering if others that have used Amsoil have had any issues. Frankly, I do not believe in extended drain intervals and my longest interval with the Mobil 1 was 2500 miles. If I keep the Amsoil I would be looking to increase the interval slightly to 3500 miles. My biggest concern is the thinnest of the oil. Any comments? And please lets have unbiased comments, preferably from other motorists who are not Amsoil dealers. Thanks.

shipo

You're both needlessly worrying and wasting your money. If you are going to go with 2,500 mile OCIs, you might just as well use the cheapest oil you can buy; even then, your engine will last longer than the rest of the car.

Best Regards,
Shipo

pulgo

I suggest you take a look at www.bobistheoilguy.com and see what others are saying about their experiences both with Amsoil and Mobil 1.

I compeletly agree with shipo. You are wasting a valuable resource and should be using any cheap brand oil. Even the worst of them will go past 2500 miles and provide more than adequate protection.

Why do you think a company like Quaker State will warrant any engine for 250k miles with regular (i.e. every 3000 miles) oil changes? And I am not saying that Quaker State is a bad oil, just a normal oil that matches or exceeds the lates API standards.

dudleyr

I started with 3,000 mile OCI's in my Integra back in 1990. After about 100,000 miles when the engine was absolutely spotless and you could still see tooling marks on the camshafts I realized I was wasting a huge amount of money. I then went to a still pretty conservative 5,000 miles OCI. The engine now has 223,000 miles. The engine still runs great, and still looks new inside (you can see the top of the engine when you take off the oil cap) the problem is the rest of the car is 17 years old, the seats are worn, rust is starting. My super clean and nice running engine is not doing me much good - the rest of the car just does not last as long.

ruking1

Essentially I did the same thing (250,000 miles) with a 1987 Toyota Landcruiser. I ran 15,000 mile OCI's with FRAM oil filters PH8A's (boo hiss here!? )

tamu2002

We have a Nissan Quest 05 with 23K miles. I've been using Mobile 1 5w30 synthetic since about the 7K mile mark. My current Mobil 1 is 7 month/7K miles old. I've planned to get an oil analysis done on this batch of oil but since we're relocating it's difficult to do the oil change myself. I noticed that the oil level has come down to half full from the full level. Our Quest has always seemed to burn some oil.

I was wondering what you experts think if it'd be safe to keep going for another 3 months and 3K miles before chaning it. Maybe I should add half a quart to help out the engine, but I don't want to skew the eventual oil analysis with the addition of new oil. Does anybody know if similar oil analysis has been done on bobistheoilguy website--Mobile 1 5W30 in a Quest for ~10K miles/1 year changes?

dudleyr

Any thoughts on using 0w20 in an Accord instead of the 5w20.

Logic dictates that it should be fine, but the "approved for 5w20 applications" is conspicously absent from the container, although the website mentions it should be OK.

shipo

At least in the case of Mobil 1, their 0W-20 oil is effectively a superset of their 5W-20. Based upon a joint Honda/Mobil 1 press release from a year or so ago, I seem to recall language that implied 5W-20 is only approved by Honda for their normally aspirated engines while 0W-20 is approved for all of their engines, including engines with forced induction.

Said another way, if I had an Accord, I'd be sure to use 0W-20.

Best Regards,
Shipo

ruking1

I have been using it for 33k, ever since the change of the oem (conventional) fill at 10k (5w20). The change (to Mobil One 0w20) has literally been seamless. MPG has been 1-3 better, changes are now at 20k OCI's, but you didn't want to hear all that noise!?

dudleyr

Sounds good - not sure if I want to go to 20k OCI's just yet. Have not changed the oil yet, but was going to use 5w20 mobil1 for the first time then go to 0w20. Partly because of break in and partly because summer is coming. I know the 0-20 should provide the same high temp protection as the 5-20, but it hit 119 in the shade here (SD - and don't get me started on warming trends) last year and the speed limit is 75 (80 mph for hours at a time is normal). Under these fairly extreme conditions is the 0 weight OK?

I know 0 is the cold number, but doesn't it start out with a lower viscosity and just has more stabalizers.

ruking1

This thing gets run through the Mojave Desert(with Mobil One 0w20.

shipo

"I know 0 is the cold number, but doesn't it start out with a lower viscosity and just has more stabalizers."

Yes, 0W-20 flows better when cold, however, its stability has more to do with the higher quality/more stable PAO base oil than it does with the additive package. My understanding is that the 0W-20 (like the 0W-40 that I use) is so stable that zero viscosity improvers are required to achieve the multi-grade rating.

Best Regards,
Shipo

ruking1

Yes this oil is perhaps (when used in engines it is specified, Honda/Ford ) one of the "BEST" "made" oil on the market. It meets probably some of the most stringent specifications. So not only are the STANDARDS very high, but oil analysis indeed shows how ROBUST it really is. The problem being that a lot of folks do not take well to empirical evidence. Of course, the inertia is very very pervasive

I would submit it DOES suffer from the idea that the only reason for its existence is the "mpg" requirement. My take is this is more myth than truth.

There are indications (on bobistheoilguy.com) if one wants to self warrant and also ready to "pay" the mileage penalty, that Mobil One 0w40 gives even BETTER oil analysis numbers.

While indeed I do know how superb Mobil One 0w40 performs, I will stick with the 5w20 and 0w20 Mobil One for the Honda Civic where the oem specifies 5w20 and 0w20.

I don't plan to keep this engine much beyond 420,000 miles anyway. :)That would be 21 oil and filter changes and 4 timing belt changes. I am further happy with the mpg (38-42) in its main role: daily commute.

davids1

There has been a lot of discussion of "hydrocracked" oils vs. "PAO" base oils. Which Mobil-1 oils are of which type? How can the average consumer determine which is which?

Thank you

ruking1

This is very easy. There are only a "handful" of PAO's Group IV oil vs the majority being hydrocracked. Mobil ONE is PAO Group IV. (Redline, Amsoil, ELF, are others to name a few of the handful)

davids1

Are all Mobil-1 products PAO Group IV? I thought I read that even some of Mobil-1's oils are not PAO Group IV.

Thanks again

ruking1

Do you use the full Mobil One line? The base oils in the line up are indeed PAO, group IV.

On the other hand, ExxonMobil is THE largest hydrocracker, in the USA and probably the world. Coming and going eh?

shipo

There was a whole lot of noise on BITOG six months or so back suggesting that Mobil 1 wasn't a full PAO. Last I heard, the thread that served as the springboard for all of the shouting has since been debunked. To date, all credible and verifiable scientific evidence shows that Mobil 1 (not to be confused with Mobil 1 EP which is a separate and discrete product line) is a full PAO based Group IV oil.

Best Regards,
Shipo

davids1

Specifically I use the 5W-30 in my wife's van and my Tahoe. Maybe my confusion was centered around the discusion associated with the Extended Performance line.

Doesn't make sense to me though that you would market an oil as "Extended Performance" and have it not be at least equivalent base stock as your basic (Mobil-1) product.

highroller

I wouldn't count so much as to whether or not the oil is 100% PAO synthetic grp III, IV, or V, etc. It's the overall product of the oil that i would count on (their additive package, viscocity, TBN, flashpoint, pour point, HTHS,etc). More importantly, I would get a UOA sample of the oil you are using and see how long you can go on the oil along with how much wear the engine has.

IHO, i wouldnt pay higher prices for a fully synthetic oil that is not mostly PAO or grp IV or higher.

From Bitog, i assume that not all "fully synthetic" like Mobil 1 syn oils are 100% PAO, i believe they're mostly PAO with some grp III or grp V?? Percentage of what part of PAO or grp III/V etc is up in the air as to what it actually are. The term synthetic can include some hydrocracked grp III because of the court ruling when Mobil sued over Castrol for their term of synthetic as i recalled... If someone can point me in the direction as to whether or not Mobil clearly says that their syn oils are 100% PAO, i'll put my mind to rest about the whole "fully synthetic" issue.

Formulations always can change without consumers ever noticing without getting a sample of a UOA or a VOA (not saying we'll know for sure that it's synthetic or not but we can look for signs of formulation changes)...
One thing oil companies would love is to make more money, that could mean that they can formulate an oil with more grp III instead of the more expensive PAO and that they could still coin the term synthetic on their labels and could make more profit. Nowadays, some grp III oils may perform just about the same and in some cases outperform some grp IV oils. Just a thought, but some oil companies can look at the similar performance of grp III vs grp IV and may develop their oils with more of grp III since performance is of the same. If one is to go for longer OCIs or have high performance vehicles, i would definitely use a quality synthetic oil.

IHO, i wouldnt buy into much of the noise that one would read about the Mobil 1 EP products being mostly grp III. Most of the noise they brought up about it hasnt been proven yet. I'd still buy the mobil 1 products.

ruking1

I have a Chevrolet V8 that specifies Mobil One 5w30. As you know whatever oil used, it just needs to meet the GM 4178 M specification. So the OLM is designed for a max OCI of 15,000 miles.

I do not use the EP, for it does not meet the above standard. Even if it did, the premium does not justify the guarantee of 15,000 mile(s) OCI, as the Mobil One 5w30 will do the job.

ruking1

Honda (FORD) has set the bar very high with (their specification) 5w20 CONVENTIONAL oil AND in Honda's Civic's case (I am familiar with it, but not Ford's) recommendation of 10,000 mile(s) OCI. The TBN is 7. I personally think this is a good trend, but also realize MOST oem's and models do not yet embrace nor can technically execute this OCI recommendation.

jeffyscott

Ford's is (was?) 6 mo./5000 miles...I think I read they are changing it to 7500 miles. But perhaps this just means they will do like Mazda and have a second schedule that calls for 5000 miles and just about everyone will fall into the second category.

In addition none of this stops the dealers from recomending 3 mo./3000 mile intervals. Our VW dealer put a sticker on after our synthetic oil change, specifying the next oil change in 3 mo. or 5000 miles. Well 3 mo. for us is probably going to be less than 2000 miles...so I don't think so...but I know an Audi owner that actually seems to do whatever dealer says, meaning synthetic oil changes every 3 months.

Mazda dealer said we should follow the 4 month/5000 mile interval when we bought the car. Then less than 3 months later they send us stuff recomending 3 mo./3750 mile OCI.

I think the majority of owners do whatever the dealer suggests, not what the mfr maintenance schedule says.

walterquint

This may have already been mentioned...

BUT I noticed today that WalMart now offers a store-brand synthetic motor oil, $15 or so for a 5 quart jug. It's much less expensive than Mobil 1, etc.

I change my oil 3 times/yr, or every 4500 miles. I'm surely switching to synthetic. At that price, I have nothing to lose.

blufz1

The Mobil 1 5 qt. jug is $23.

shipo

Store brand "synthetic" isn't really "synthetic", it's a Group III hydrocracked crude based oil. Kind of like saying its a genuine imitation synthetic oil. :-/

Best Regards,
Shipo

jeffyscott

Does it really matter, since he is changing every 4 mo./4500 mi?

shipo

Ahhh, my bad, missed that part. The question is, why use any "synthetic" oil with a 4,500 mile OCI? I'd wager that with such a short OCI that there would be virtually no difference in engine wear between the Wally World store brand synthetic and a good high quality Dino oil like Havoline.

Best Regards,
Shipo

jeffyscott

why use any "synthetic" oil with a 4,500 mile OCI?

Now that's the response I was expecting to see .

highroller

$15 for a 5 qt jug??? Hmmm $3 plus tax for a quart... That's a reasonable price even for a hydrocracked grp III oil. Last time i checked, Havoline has upped their price to compete with the other brand name dino oils. Since you're going to do oil changes every 4.5k miles anyways, i'd say go with it.

joker55

Heys guys,

not sure if this is the place to post this but i was wondering, i have a 1999 Jetta with 108000 miles on it, and i have been using regular 10w30 oil in it because i am told i have "noisy" lifters and 10w coats a lil better then 5w, i was wondering, would making the switch to a synthetic oil make an improvement in my lifter noise, would it quiet them down or make no difference at all?

thanks

shipo

First off, who ever told you that 10W-?? coats lifters better than 5W-?? is full of hogwash, if anything it's the reverse. What a 5w-?? or even a 0W-?? will do for you is flow quicker and protect faster than a comparable 10W-?? following a cold start.

Now, as to the notion of switching to synthetic oil, hmmm, I guess before I make a suggestion I'd like to know why you are considering the switch and what benefits you think you will gain.

Best Regards,
Shipo

jeffyscott

Doesn't VW require synthetic in all their engines? I know they do now, not sure about a '99.

I think there had been sludge problems with conventional oils in their engines.

shipo

I don't believe that VW required (even retroactively) synthetic oils for their non-Diesel and non-Turbo engines. Said another way, for normally aspirated gasoline engines from 1999, it is my understanding that conventional oil is acceptable. FWIW, the sludging issues were primarily found in the blown 1.8T engines.

For current cars, I believe that you are correct, even the normally aspirated engines require synthetic oil.

Best Regards,
Shipo

jim0043

I have a great '03 Astro van, AWD, with 47,000 miles. It runs like new--no smoke, no hesitation, etc. I change every 3000 miles. Garage put in 5w30 Castrol Synthetic by mistake. Will this damage my engine after using regular 5w30 for the last 3 years? Someone told me I can't switch back to regular now. Something about synthetic being "stickier" even with the same vicosity. They claim the engine will smoke because the synthetic "opens up" the tollerances even though the engine is protected from wear.

pulgo

Using synthetic in your van will do no harm whatsoever.

Considering your OCI of 3k miles it is just a waste of money.

You can go back to regular oil anytime with no ill effects.

IF you had an older engine and IF said engine had a lot of gunk/crud due to infrequent oil changes you COULD see some of this stuff in your used filter and oil at your next oil change.

That is not your case so do not worry and either keep doing your oil changes as usual or try using a "real" synthetic oil like Mobil 1, Amsoil and a few others, for truly extended OCI's, say for at least 7500 miles or more. Otherwise you are wasting your money and precious (non renewable) oil.

chetj

hello shipo, do you like the wal mart synthetic oil? i know you said it is not a true synthetic but could it go 10k on normal driving in a 4 cylinder cavalier w/ 158000 miles on it w/ no problems? i also just put synthetic in this car for first time, any issues with that? this car went 158 k on reg oil....with 4500 k oil changes ( before i found out that was not necessary) so the engine should be fairly clean...thanks, leo warren NH

shipo

Hmmm, I kind of doubt that the WalMart synthetic is good for 10,000 miles in your engine, 7,500 maybe. That said, run your new oil 7,500 miles and have it analyzed. You may then find out if there's enough life in the oil to continue on a little further.

Best Regards,
Shipo