Uhhh, dude, the 1980s have been over for a while. Toilet paper bypass systems are absolutely one of the worst things you can do for your car, regardless of when it was built, and have long since been discredited. Trust me (or don't), one of the very early benefits of Oil Analysis was to debunk the whole toilet paper craze of the 1980s. All toilet paper does is break down and then fill the oil full of wood pulp, which by the way is a fast way to toast your engine.
As for other higher tech bypass systems, I have yet to see one single UOA that proved that a car so endowed can go 25,000 miles on a single oil change. As for never changing your oil again, only a fool would do that (given current oil technology). After all, what good is clean but thoroughly exhausted oil? None. I'd rather have dirty looking oil that still has plenty of additives left in it lubricating my engine.
never heard of the hi tec TP bypass but i know my dad and best friend would just top off the oil on their ford trucks and basically change their oil once a year...my bro in law changes his oil every 25k on his camry and his car still runs ok but engine is louder.....mainly coz it was down 2 quarts...car has 190k now..his subarus oil was only changed once a year, but engine went to 240k...it is amazing the abuse oil can withstand...anyways, i think everybody should at least change their oil every 7500 miles and make sure the engine has enough oil...most cars are a substantial investment and oil changes are only 20 bucks at walmart..it has always amazed me how some people give 2 %&$#@#&% about oil changes...anyways, i dont see how your engine could withstand 25 k oil changes, eventually it would die
Well other dude, apparently the eighties have stuck around for a long time,TP bypass systems are still here. But that aside there are other HIGH TEC 21st century bypass systems that do a good job. Point again being UOA give you the answers needed for accurate OCI. Most other opinions and answers are just for conversation sake as far as I am concerned and I do like to read them, and even your opinions too DUDE!!!!!!!! MC
Here is a Tech tip from Isky racing website, if the Camfather Ed says amsoil "red" (which is the series 2000 20-50)is the stuff to use then you go right ahead and use your royal purple!!!
Roller Lifters: Keep 'Em Rolling Longer
Most racers are aware of the advantages of Roller Lifters. For those who are not, a brief review is in order. Roller Cams & Lifters are employed today in all-out racing engines where valve lift/area requirements preclude the possibility of employing a flat tappet (solid lifter cam). Higher Lift requires higher valve spring loads (pressures) and flat tappet cams can only handle so much. Additionally, increased rates of lift (cam lobe velocity) above .007" per degree for example on an .842" diameter G.M. lifter, would cause the lobe to reach-out over the edge of the lifters' cam face. Consequently, with either too much spring or too high a lift rate, most racers know that extremely radical flat tappet cams will eventually self-destruct.
But, what about Roller Lifters? Are they as indestructible as many believe? How do we prolong the life of their roller bearings in today's modern race only engines? Roller lifters require special care and maintenance if they are to provide good service life. Here are the 4 most important factors you should consider to insure their success.
1. AVOID DRY "START UP": Roller Lifter Bearings are assembled with a "tacky" rust-preventing grease that is not intended for lubrication. Therefore, new lifters should have their roller bearings thoroughly washed in clean solvent or acetone to completely remove this assembly grease. After air drying, premium motor-oil (non-synthetic) such as Penzoil SAE 25W50 GTP Racing Oil (The best of the mineral based oils) or Amzoil "Red" Racing Oil (synthetic) should be used to pre-lube the bearings just before installation.
The above text is specific to using racing oils (which aren't all that similar to oils for the motoring public) to pre-lube roller-lifters during engine assembly. It has NOTHING to do with how those oils would perform on a daily commute into Manhattan for instance. In fact, pretty much any racing oil will sludge your engine up fairly quickly in such an environment as they are heavy on friction modifiers and anti-foaming agents and rather light (as in non-existant) on detergents and other additives that deal with acid formation following a short cold-start trip to the market.
In fact, pretty much any racing oil will sludge your engine up fairly quickly in such an environment as they are heavy on friction modifiers and anti-foaming agents and rather light (as in non-existent) on detergents and other additives that deal with acid formation following a short cold-start trip to the market.
Precisely. That's why racing oil is changed at the end of every race.
Me? I'll stick with my Mobil 1 0W-40.
Me too.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Do you know the history of how amsoil got statred? The founder was a Fighter Pilot. I have been an Acft Mech going on 20 years now, and guess what.... all Turbine engines use syn. oil. They run thousands of hours before the oil is changed. The USAF uses a (JOAP) Joint Oil Analysis Program where the oil is tested every so many flight hours, not so much to check the oil but to insure that the engine is not coming apart, last time I checked you cant pull over if the enging stops turning. So why is it not possible to do the same in you auto? The main difference between a jet engine and your auto is the filtration system, and the operating temps of course. Last time I checked Mobil 1, Royal Purple, Red Line, etc. were not the first company to produce a Syn. product that met API standards. With proper filtration and a good quality syn. product you are able to run longer drain intervals. Ok enough with the rant.....
I do use Amsoil, I had a 2000 Silverado Ext cab, 5.3L, that I installed the Bypass Filter Kit on and I used oil analysis, I sold the truck in 2005 (I was the orginal owner) with 195K on it. I installed the bypass kit @ 9800 miles. I would say that on average I changed my oil about every 45-50K miles. When I sold it, it did not smoke, use oil, chatter or anything, it just kept going. Good filtration does work. The oil testing does not just test the "oil" it also can reveal a possible engine failure before it fails. And as for your non biased testing facility, how bout an AF base. I know some of the Chemists that do the oil testing and they do tinker around form time to time, and syn. oils will perform as amsoil claims if properly filtered, and it wasnt just Amsoil they tinkered with, it was several of the leading Syn's on the market.
So bottom line if you properly filter the oil it will perform!!!!!
Yes but your truck history is anecdotal evidence and another person could do the same and meet total disaster. I just don't see much relevance between jet engines and car engines when it comes to oils, filtration or service procedures. Or why a company started by a fighter pilot should produce better oils than one started by a tycoon in a business suit who can't fly a kite or fix a ball point pen.
I fully understand your confidence in your own methods (one cant argue with success) but I never saw any credible evidence that Amsoil was any better or worse than any other good synthetic oil you can buy off the shelf at a convenience store.
"Do you know the history of how amsoil got statred? The founder was a Fighter Pilot."
So that makes him an expert in oil technologies for Intermittent Combustion engines? I'm thinking no. I was in Marine aviation and that didn’t make me an expert on the care and feeding of IC engines.
"I have been an Acft Mech going on 20 years now..."
So that makes you an expert in oil technologies for IC engines? I'm thinking no again.
"...all Turbine engines use syn. oil."
So? They don't use the same synthetic oils because the engines don't use and abuse the oil in the same way.
"The main difference between a jet engine and your auto is the filtration system, and the operating temps of course."
Gross oversimplification if there ever was one. Oil for IC engines must endure harsh conditions that are completely alien to Continuous Combustion engines (and vice versa), and while oils with a fully synthetic base do well in both types of engines, switching oil formulations between the two is a recipe for absolute disaster. Like it or not, the formulation for a Synthetic Oil for conventional street vehicles is VERY different from the formulation of a Synthetic oil for an aircraft with CC engines.
"I do use Amsoil, I had a 2000 Silverado Ext cab, 5.3L, that I installed the Bypass Filter Kit on and I used oil analysis, I sold the truck in 2005 (I was the orginal owner) with 195K on it. I installed the bypass kit 9800 miles. I would say that on average I changed my oil about every 45-50K miles. When I sold it, it did not smoke, use oil, chatter or anything, it just kept going. Good filtration does work. The oil testing does not just test the "oil" it also can reveal a possible engine failure before it fails. And as for your non biased testing facility, how bout an AF base. I know some of the Chemists that do the oil testing and they do tinker around form time to time, and syn. oils will perform as amsoil claims if properly filtered, and it wasnt just Amsoil they tinkered with, it was several of the leading Syn's on the market.
So bottom line if you properly filter the oil it will perform!!!!!"
Ummm, sorry, I have to say it, running any IC engine 45-50K miles without an oil change, even with good filtration, is dumb. Like it or not, clean but otherwise exhausted oil will not protect an engine as well as slightly dirty but otherwise fresh oil. As for the engine on that Silverado, I sure as heck wouldn't have bought it unless you were able to show via the results of regular oil analysis that you weren't ever running it with exhausted oil.
So, bottom line, do what makes you happy, but don't be surprised when folks challenge your methods. ;-)
I've spent hours perusing the UOA database over at BITOG, and the longest I've ever seen any oil last (with a bypass filter) without being fully exhausted is just over 20,000 miles. That said, given how gentle the new (non-Si) Civic engine seems to be on oil, it wouldn't surprise me if I came across UOA results from a bypass filter equipped 8th Generation Civic that showed mid to high "twenties" is possible.
Do any of you think (know?) whether it's possible for an oil, even well filtered, to go 50K without some signs of exhaustion showing up in analysis? No. The reason is, because no engine has a sealed oil system. Outside contaminates act on the oil. Of those, moisture is one of the most harmful things on oil. Age also will break down oil, not so much because of a "shelf life", but because of how moisture can attack oils, even synthetics. Another problem is what they call "additive drop out".
We have done a lot of oil analysis on long term oil changes and almost always, it gets to a certain time frame and the sulphur, acid and oxidization start occuring. In most automotive cases, we've seen this occur around the 20,000 mile or 14 month mark. In diesel applications, around 15,000 miles or 1 year. These are vehicles using full synthetics. Cracked synthetic or "semi-synthetic" the results haven't been as good.
Now, this has only been my experience on these, so take it for what its worth.
If the vehicle uses a quart of oil in 2000 miles, e.g., they would have added 25 quarts during that 50000 mile interval. That would be equivalent to 5 oil changes if the sump were 5 quarts in volume. The sediment would be in the bottom of the sump hopefully. Does the oil reach an equilibrium of old worn out additives and contaminant load vs the newer oil with its new additives?
The sediment would be in the bottom of the sump hopefully. Does the oil reach an equilibrium of old worn out additives and contaminant load vs the newer oil with its new additives? One thing to remember, oil suspends particulates, so only large particulates would go into the sump.
What you are talking about is similar to Cummin's Centinal oil system. This system extends the oil change to up to 500,000 miles. It pulls used oil into the fuel system to be burned, while a computer injects new oil from a sealed resevoir into the oil system as it is needed. Long life filters are used for 75,000 miles and then changed.
That's interesting about the dynamic oil system from Cummins.
A tractor is used much differently than a vehicle driven by us home users. I can see where a truck could do that and keep a good quality oil in the sump. Perhaps a police car and taxi that are running and rarely shut off could benefit from extended oil changes. But I don't see the start an stop life of a motor in a home use car going 50K miles.
"If the vehicle uses a quart of oil in 2000 miles, e.g., they would have added 25 quarts during that 50000 mile interval. That would be equivalent to 5 oil changes if the sump were 5 quarts in volume."
Yeah, I suppose if the Silverado in question came out of the factory using lots of oil (I consider a quart every 2,000 mile too much), or if the owner's practices wore the engine out at a fairly early stage so that it started consuming oil at that rate, then the oil wouldn't get too exhausted over a 50,000 mile run as he's effectively replacing the oil every 10,000 miles anyway.
I must contrast that though with our old 1998 Grand Caravan (with only 146,000 on the clock). That engine came out of the factory using roughly a quart of oil every 7,500 miles, and it is STILL using a quart every 7,500 miles. As many of y'all already know, I've been using Mobil 1 since about the fifteen thousand mile mark, and targeting oil changes every 10,000 miles (meaning that I usually get to it by 12,000 miles). FWIW, even with all of the miles on that engine, it still shows a complete set of the honing marks on all six cylinder walls. Anecdotal? Yup, you bet. Irrelevant? In the grand scheme of things, "yup" again. Interesting? Well, to me at least. ;-)
I agree that was a high usage assumption. My cars seemed to go 4-5K when new and then use more nearer 100k and past 100K. Because the Silverado is a truck I thought after 50K and not having the oil changed it may be using a quart in 2.0 or 2.5k.
Does synthetic burn up less than regular oil? Well, logic would say no. Because synthetics tend to be thinner (Or stay at a tighter viscosity range), then logic would say that as tolerances increase on rings, sythetic would have an easier time getting past the rings.
Typically, engines consume oil for four different reasons: 1) Burned (or pushed out through the exhaust) after passing through the valve guides. 2) Burned after being left behind on the cylinder walls by the oil control rings. 3) Leaked past the various engine seals and into the environment. 4) Evaporative loss (as with most liquids, the hotter oil gets, the greater its tendency to evaporate), which is another method of burning as evaporated oil makes its way through the PCV system with blow-by gasses. http://www.astm.org/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/DATABASE.CART/REDLINE_PAGES/D5800.htm?L- +mystore+dsgb1425+1152545220
It can be argued that synthetic oil may be more likely to "burn" off (as in getting into the combustion chamber), however, I've never seen any large scale scientific evidence of that. Personally I would think that oil control rings and valve guides would stay in better condition throughout the life of an engine with Synthetic Oil, and as such it seems to me that oil consumption via this path would be less. Of course I don't have any large scale scientific evidence to back that up either. Let's call it a wash.
Leaking is leaking and I won't address that one.
Then there is oil volatility, it is measurable, there is established testing for it, and the results show that synthetic oil is no where near as volatile as conventional oil. Is the difference measurable over a typical oil change interval? I would think so but I don't know enough about it to venture a guess.
Of course, a Cummins diesel engine in a tractor-trailer is a whole other kettle of fish. That engine stands man high, with cylinder walls as thick as a concrete bunker, a massive oiling system, filters for every fluid running through it, and a rebuild cost you don't wanna know about.
I don't think the finest, most expensive car in the world can run as long or as hard as one of those engines.
When I was in the Army in the sixties I got a ride from a guy that claimed the car we were riding in had gone 39000 miles without an oil change. He was very proud of this fact. The engine was a little on the noisy side. He then went to say his father had gone 65000 miles without an oil change before he burned out a bearing. I was shocked at the time because I was already into preventive maintenance.
Since 0w20, 5w20 was the original question, I have been running 20,000 mile oci's with Mobil One 0w20 and the oil "consumption" has been between 1/4-1/2 qt (8 oz - to less than 16oz) per 20,000 miles. I monitor these levels very carefully and tend to top off (to the top): when falling between the min and max on the dip stick is PERFECTLY acceptable. The engine mileage is at 50,000 miles.
One of the reasons I monitor closely is the smaller sump size of 3.4 qt. (ocb ) Suffice to say the Honda engineers have determined that this sump size, 0w20=5w20 spec CONVENTIONAL oil, etc, etc. is good to go to 10,000 mile OCI's with 20,000 mile (oil) filter changes!!!!
Good afternoon,Ruking. Keep on topping it up. My 02 V6 is only about 4.5 quarts capacity. The newer Accords both 4 and 6 are now over 5 quarts capacity. Ist thing I do when I get back from the dealer oil change is add enough Mobil 1 to just below the top dipstick mark.
The title most certainly sounds totally off topic. However, it allowed internal visual inspection of the TDI's camshaft and upper portion of the engine (by the guru who did the timing belt change). It also allowed inspection of the intake and EGR (so called prone to soot impaction). The synthetic oil nexus here was getting a snap shot of 25,000 mile (s) OCI's EFFECTS! (Mobil One Truck and Suv 5w40 aka Delvac One 5w40) Camshaft friction faces and lobs and the upper end of the engine showed original machine marks and literally almost no wear markings. There was no sludge, no varnish build up, the parts were shiny! The engine was run app 85% of its mileage on LSD (low sulfur diesel, up to 500 ppm) despite being designed to run on ULSD (15 ppm or less). While the intake, EGR was blackened (normal), there was NO soot build up. It was pronounced good to go till the next timing belt change. (@ 200,000 miles) At that time, I can report if folks are not already bored to tears! It should continue to run ULSD, as it is now commonly available.
As I reread my post, it occurred to me I should probably tie in the significance of continued ULSD use and how it affects the synthetic oil use. Without getting into a lot of technical chemistry issues, the bottom line: LONGER LASTING useful life of the oil (TBN lasting longer); even less tendency for soot build up, which would lead to soot impaction. Given 15 ppm: 142ppm and 500 ppm generates 9.5X to 33X more soot potential !!!! So given similar driving dynamics over the next 100,000 miles, I would swag even lower soot build up in the oil, which would further lessen the tendency/potential for soot impaction in the intake and EGR systems. This would mean going (from a 25,000 mile oci, which is conservative) to an OCI of 30,000 miles would not be unreasonable. Of course trend UOA's would be a good idea.
"Do any of you think (know?) whether it's possible for an oil, even well filtered, to go 50K without some signs of exhaustion showing up in analysis?
This 50K oil change rather surprised me, but I can't say it isn't possible, because I don't know."
Many years ago (Am I dating myself?) there was a Ford engineer who parked his new Lincoln outside in Michigan year round who used synethic oil and did not change it for 100K miles. This was earlier than the availability of Mobil 1 BTW.
i have been amazed at some of long ocis my friends and family have done...or people who just add oil instead of changing it for 50k miles...as far as i can tell, people who do this will eventually experience trouble at 150 or 200k...i am very anal about my oil and i would never do that...i have almost 8000 miles on m1 in my new focus and even though i dont like going that long, synthetic oil can definitely take oil changes between 8 and ten k according to used oil analyses...i used to do the 3 and 4k ocis till i found out it was a waste of money
I think you have to put the concept of 1.5/2/3/4k/5k oci's in context. For the cars I am familar, LEADED regular and indeed old (ancient)1940's,50's,60's,70's 80's specifications and technology made 5k OCI's a candidate for (as a min) a sludge monster!!
Synthetic oils such as; Mobil One were not commonly available till 1974. Keep in mind that cars such as Chevrolet Corvette specify Mobil One 0w30 to 5w30 and up to 15,000 miles OCI's(per year). Indeed Honda Civic with 5w20 CONVENTIONAL oil has an oem recommendation of 10,000 miles OCI's! (Ford specs being more stringent)
So even with your Ford Focus, we've come a long way.
So as an example, Amsoil takes FULL advantage of this. (this is not to say that Amsoil is NOT a good oil, it IS) There are a few side by side studies that indicate Mobil One can easily go the 15,000 miles (and have sufficient TBN remaining), while oils like Amsoil goes 10-12,000 miles, while advertising a guarantee for 25,000 miles.
So they know that EVEN when the oil is technically EXHAUSTED (actually ADDITIVES), real world statistics indicates no real significant wear that will induce oil related damage under warranty, normally 36,000 to 60,000 miles. TRANSLATION: very very very REMOTE!!! They GUARANTEE IT!!!!??? (I hope folks really understand what I am saying here) They further guarantee, if you are mildly unsuccessful in reversing dealer or oem warranty non service due to use of AMSOIL, they will help you petition the oem! (Their petition refers to the anti trust act and requirement the oem PROVE specifically that AMSOIL did the damage)
The bottom line is they play a good legal 3 shell guess under what shell the pea is under routine! (reasonable doubt vs oem need for proof positive) Indeed if you read the guarantee there is NO I repeat NO provision for oil replacement if the TBN is so called exhausted at say 10-12k of a 25,000 mile OCI. If you do not believe me go, indeed RUN to those web sites!!! The irony is that most Amsoil sites also sell UOA kits!!!!! :P :shades:
I remember very well the experimentation that the Ford engineer did with that Lincoln. While it is true that he didn't change the oil for a considerable length of time (IIRC, he was running 25,000 mile OCIs), it is also true that he was doing oil analysis every couple thousand miles AND he was adding make-up oil either as the engine consumed it or when he replaced the filter.
If it's the same engineer I read about, with conventional lube, he had to let his car warm up for 10+ minutes in the winter before he could get on the freeway; with synthetics, he could fire it up and go straight up the ramp.
As a boy, I had done a fair amount of manual removal of SLUDGE from my Dad's clients cars. As a result, I have never (since starting to follow it in 1974, geez that is 33 years) approached the use of synthetic oil and so called longer OCI's lightly (hopefully for at least a few obvious reasons. (: . Indeed I started using synthetic oil (Mobil One 5w30) in late 1986. In 14 years I put app 250,000 miles with 15,000 miles OCI's on a Toyota Landcruiser as a daily business and delivery vehicle. Since the vehicle required 15,000 miles valve adjustments, aka a specialized Landcruiser mechanic had to remove the valve cover to adjust the valves and in theory inspect the innards, I could in the worst case, pull the plug on both the oil and oil change interval, literally at will with 15,000 mile "inspection points" so to speak.
But still I can understand folks' reluctance. However to that, I would point to conducting trend UOA's, which oxymoronically, people are even less inclined to conduct.
Folks can use whatever (mileage) parameters that are most (economically) applicable to them; but let me use 3k/15k OCI's and 1,000,000 miles= 7 qts per oil change*334/67 changes, 2338 quarts/469 quarts. I think it is more than obvious which OCI comsumes less both oil and filters.
There's one in every crowd, who defies the odds and then this makes them "special" :P
I'm all for having fun, driving fast and being silly but I refuse to purposely destroy a good piece of machinery for no good reason except to be a contrarian.
i have heard that car companies cannot deny us warranty coverage based solely on extended ocis(within reason)..especially now with the superior oils in the market...10 k ocis are acceptable with a good synthetic...and as good as amsoil or M1 is it pretty unlikely they would damage a engine anyways so odds are we would never need warranty service..i am going with a 8500k oci on my focus with m1 even though it is still under warranty (5k oci reccomended)..i read a ford engineer on bitog talking about the superiority of syn oil and using the proper grade, so they know how good they are...of course he thought any fuel or oil additive are a total waste...now they could invalidate your warranty..it is cool amsoil helps us with the law concerning warrantys..i think it called the magnusson act
..."10k ocis are acceptable with a good synthetic..."...
OEMS produce cars that consumers want. So for example, if Toyota wants to produce sludge monsters and folks still buy them, then whose fault is it?
On the other hand, I chose the Honda Civic over the Toyota Corolla. One reason; Honda recommends 10,000 mile OCI's on CONVENTIONAL oil!!! I trust if you are interested it is simple to find out what Toyota recommends for the Corolla! So in that sense, I voted with the purse strings!!! I also applaud Honda's designing a car that actually enhances its already sterling reputation for economy.
The technical issues CAN be stated in a sort of shorthand. 5w20 spec oil has a TBN of 7, while Mobil One 5w20 has a TBN of 12. TBN of 12 is 42% more than 7. So if you are even remotely conservative, a 42% factor puts the 10,000 OCI with conventional oil at 14,200 OCI.
i dont think i would have it in me to go that long in a civic...maybe 7500...how do you know m1 5-20 has a tbn of 12? that is good news, i am running that grade in my focus...i saw a uoa of 10k oci on civic and tbn was about exhausted...i wouldnt cut it that close...honda wants to be a green company by not wasting oil...they definitely know how to make engines that are easy on oil
I didn't edit correctly, change this ..."So if you are even remotely conservative, a 42% factor puts the 10,000 OCI with conventional oil at 14,200 OCI. " ...
TO: synthetic oil, like: Mobil One 0w20/5w20. Sorry for the confusion.
I wish you luck with VW engines that need full synthetic oils (meeting 502.00, 503.01 or 505.00 specs) changed at 5K intervals. I bet they will deny warranty coverage if you did only half of the changes.
Krzys
PS I believe some manufacturers design new engines and schedule maintenance taking into account modern oils. Problems arise when old oils with old customs meet new technology (Toyota and VW sludge issues.
I found some cases of SH oil behind other things in the garage. I have SN oils that I've bought recently. Are the SH oils usable for my 98 3800 GM motor?
I don't find a requirement in the owners manual in the glove box. These are brand name Havoline, Valvoline, etc., oils. I won't use them in my 03 3800 GM motor.
Even as oil specifications and product execution becomes ever better, the truism "BUYER BEWARE" is all the more appropriate!!
In depth research is ALL the more IMPORTANT that ever before. At the very least, it is almost mandatory to READ THE ------- MANUAL (RT _ M) BEFORE purchase. Once purchased you are rather... committed (good and or bad or both!). I as a minimum, talk to the mechanics (BEFORE purchase) who maintain the engine models of interest.
I remember reading somethwere that the TBN of virgin Mobil 5W30 being only 6 or 7. Does anybody here know for sure the exact TBN of this oil as well as the Mobil 5W20 from their oil analysis? I've been using Mobil 5W30 on one vehicle, and will start using Mobil 5W20 soon for my Accord.
i have heard oil should be used within 3 years of manufacture...maybe for optimum performance
If the container is sealed, it shouldn't be much of a problem. Oils that have been opened have a shelf life, because once opened, contaminates start to work on the oil.
You'd best have that engine inspected thoroughly for sludge, especially if in-laws have not been using synthetic on this engine and doing the recommended oil changes. This is a known issue with that engine, but not all years.
You might think about popping off the valve cover to see what's what, and also ask about type of oil they are using.
Comments
As for other higher tech bypass systems, I have yet to see one single UOA that proved that a car so endowed can go 25,000 miles on a single oil change. As for never changing your oil again, only a fool would do that (given current oil technology). After all, what good is clean but thoroughly exhausted oil? None. I'd rather have dirty looking oil that still has plenty of additives left in it lubricating my engine.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Roller Lifters: Keep 'Em Rolling Longer
Most racers are aware of the advantages of Roller Lifters. For those who are not, a brief review is in order. Roller Cams & Lifters are employed today in all-out racing engines where valve lift/area requirements preclude the possibility of employing a flat tappet (solid lifter cam). Higher Lift requires higher valve spring loads (pressures) and flat tappet cams can only handle so much. Additionally, increased rates of lift (cam lobe velocity) above .007" per degree for example on an .842" diameter G.M. lifter, would cause the lobe to reach-out over the edge of the lifters' cam face. Consequently, with either too much spring or too high a lift rate, most racers know that extremely radical flat tappet cams will eventually self-destruct.
But, what about Roller Lifters? Are they as indestructible as many believe? How do we prolong the life of their roller bearings in today's modern race only engines? Roller lifters require special care and maintenance if they are to provide good service life. Here are the 4 most important factors you should consider to insure their success.
1. AVOID DRY "START UP": Roller Lifter Bearings are assembled with a "tacky" rust-preventing grease that is not intended for lubrication. Therefore, new lifters should have their roller bearings thoroughly washed in clean solvent or acetone to completely remove this assembly grease. After air drying, premium motor-oil (non-synthetic) such as Penzoil SAE 25W50 GTP Racing Oil (The best of the mineral based oils) or Amzoil "Red" Racing Oil (synthetic) should be used to pre-lube the bearings just before installation.
The above text is specific to using racing oils (which aren't all that similar to oils for the motoring public) to pre-lube roller-lifters during engine assembly. It has NOTHING to do with how those oils would perform on a daily commute into Manhattan for instance. In fact, pretty much any racing oil will sludge your engine up fairly quickly in such an environment as they are heavy on friction modifiers and anti-foaming agents and rather light (as in non-existant) on detergents and other additives that deal with acid formation following a short cold-start trip to the market.
Me? I'll stick with my Mobil 1 0W-40.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Precisely.
That's why racing oil is changed at the end of every race.
Me? I'll stick with my Mobil 1 0W-40.
Me too.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I do use Amsoil, I had a 2000 Silverado Ext cab, 5.3L, that I installed the Bypass Filter Kit on and I used oil analysis, I sold the truck in 2005 (I was the orginal owner) with 195K on it. I installed the bypass kit @ 9800 miles. I would say that on average I changed my oil about every 45-50K miles. When I sold it, it did not smoke, use oil, chatter or anything, it just kept going. Good filtration does work. The oil testing does not just test the "oil" it also can reveal a possible engine failure before it fails. And as for your non biased testing facility, how bout an AF base. I know some of the Chemists that do the oil testing and they do tinker around form time to time, and syn. oils will perform as amsoil claims if properly filtered, and it wasnt just Amsoil they tinkered with, it was several of the leading Syn's on the market.
So bottom line if you properly filter the oil it will perform!!!!!
I fully understand your confidence in your own methods (one cant argue with success) but I never saw any credible evidence that Amsoil was any better or worse than any other good synthetic oil you can buy off the shelf at a convenience store.
So that makes him an expert in oil technologies for Intermittent Combustion engines? I'm thinking no. I was in Marine aviation and that didn’t make me an expert on the care and feeding of IC engines.
"I have been an Acft Mech going on 20 years now..."
So that makes you an expert in oil technologies for IC engines? I'm thinking no again.
"...all Turbine engines use syn. oil."
So? They don't use the same synthetic oils because the engines don't use and abuse the oil in the same way.
"The main difference between a jet engine and your auto is the filtration system, and the operating temps of course."
Gross oversimplification if there ever was one. Oil for IC engines must endure harsh conditions that are completely alien to Continuous Combustion engines (and vice versa), and while oils with a fully synthetic base do well in both types of engines, switching oil formulations between the two is a recipe for absolute disaster. Like it or not, the formulation for a Synthetic Oil for conventional street vehicles is VERY different from the formulation of a Synthetic oil for an aircraft with CC engines.
"I do use Amsoil, I had a 2000 Silverado Ext cab, 5.3L, that I installed the Bypass Filter Kit on and I used oil analysis, I sold the truck in 2005 (I was the orginal owner) with 195K on it. I installed the bypass kit 9800 miles. I would say that on average I changed my oil about every 45-50K miles. When I sold it, it did not smoke, use oil, chatter or anything, it just kept going. Good filtration does work. The oil testing does not just test the "oil" it also can reveal a possible engine failure before it fails. And as for your non biased testing facility, how bout an AF base. I know some of the Chemists that do the oil testing and they do tinker around form time to time, and syn. oils will perform as amsoil claims if properly filtered, and it wasnt just Amsoil they tinkered with, it was several of the leading Syn's on the market.
So bottom line if you properly filter the oil it will perform!!!!!"
Ummm, sorry, I have to say it, running any IC engine 45-50K miles without an oil change, even with good filtration, is dumb. Like it or not, clean but otherwise exhausted oil will not protect an engine as well as slightly dirty but otherwise fresh oil. As for the engine on that Silverado, I sure as heck wouldn't have bought it unless you were able to show via the results of regular oil analysis that you weren't ever running it with exhausted oil.
So, bottom line, do what makes you happy, but don't be surprised when folks challenge your methods. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
This 50K oil change rather surprised me, but I can't say it isn't possible, because I don't know.
Best Regards,
Shipo
No. The reason is, because no engine has a sealed oil system. Outside contaminates act on the oil. Of those, moisture is one of the most harmful things on oil.
Age also will break down oil, not so much because of a "shelf life", but because of how moisture can attack oils, even synthetics. Another problem is what they call "additive drop out".
We have done a lot of oil analysis on long term oil changes and almost always, it gets to a certain time frame and the sulphur, acid and oxidization start occuring. In most automotive cases, we've seen this occur around the 20,000 mile or 14 month mark.
In diesel applications, around 15,000 miles or 1 year.
These are vehicles using full synthetics. Cracked synthetic or "semi-synthetic" the results haven't been as good.
Now, this has only been my experience on these, so take it for what its worth.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
One thing to remember, oil suspends particulates, so only large particulates would go into the sump.
What you are talking about is similar to Cummin's Centinal oil system. This system extends the oil change to up to 500,000 miles. It pulls used oil into the fuel system to be burned, while a computer injects new oil from a sealed resevoir into the oil system as it is needed.
Long life filters are used for 75,000 miles and then changed.
A tractor is used much differently than a vehicle driven by us home users. I can see where a truck could do that and keep a good quality oil in the sump. Perhaps a police car and taxi that are running and rarely shut off could benefit from extended oil changes. But I don't see the start an stop life of a motor in a home use car going 50K miles.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Yeah, I suppose if the Silverado in question came out of the factory using lots of oil (I consider a quart every 2,000 mile too much), or if the owner's practices wore the engine out at a fairly early stage so that it started consuming oil at that rate, then the oil wouldn't get too exhausted over a 50,000 mile run as he's effectively replacing the oil every 10,000 miles anyway.
I must contrast that though with our old 1998 Grand Caravan (with only 146,000 on the clock). That engine came out of the factory using roughly a quart of oil every 7,500 miles, and it is STILL using a quart every 7,500 miles. As many of y'all already know, I've been using Mobil 1 since about the fifteen thousand mile mark, and targeting oil changes every 10,000 miles (meaning that I usually get to it by 12,000 miles). FWIW, even with all of the miles on that engine, it still shows a complete set of the honing marks on all six cylinder walls. Anecdotal? Yup, you bet. Irrelevant? In the grand scheme of things, "yup" again. Interesting? Well, to me at least. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
Does synthetic burn up less than regular oil?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Well, logic would say no.
Because synthetics tend to be thinner (Or stay at a tighter viscosity range), then logic would say that as tolerances increase on rings, sythetic would have an easier time getting past the rings.
As with everything else, "It depends."
Typically, engines consume oil for four different reasons:
1) Burned (or pushed out through the exhaust) after passing through the valve guides.
2) Burned after being left behind on the cylinder walls by the oil control rings.
3) Leaked past the various engine seals and into the environment.
4) Evaporative loss (as with most liquids, the hotter oil gets, the greater its tendency to evaporate), which is another method of burning as evaporated oil makes its way through the PCV system with blow-by gasses.
http://www.astm.org/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/DATABASE.CART/REDLINE_PAGES/D5800.htm?L- +mystore+dsgb1425+1152545220
It can be argued that synthetic oil may be more likely to "burn" off (as in getting into the combustion chamber), however, I've never seen any large scale scientific evidence of that. Personally I would think that oil control rings and valve guides would stay in better condition throughout the life of an engine with Synthetic Oil, and as such it seems to me that oil consumption via this path would be less. Of course I don't have any large scale scientific evidence to back that up either. Let's call it a wash.
Leaking is leaking and I won't address that one.
Then there is oil volatility, it is measurable, there is established testing for it, and the results show that synthetic oil is no where near as volatile as conventional oil. Is the difference measurable over a typical oil change interval? I would think so but I don't know enough about it to venture a guess.
Best Regards,
Shipo
I don't think the finest, most expensive car in the world can run as long or as hard as one of those engines.
One of the reasons I monitor closely is the smaller sump size of 3.4 qt. (ocb
"At that time, I can report if folks are not already bored to tears!"
Well speaking for myself, I am not at all "bored to tears" and am in fact very interested.
Please keep us posted, as I am sure that many of us here are very much interested!
to go 50K without some signs of exhaustion showing up in analysis?
This 50K oil change rather surprised me, but I can't say it isn't possible, because I don't know."
Many years ago (Am I dating myself?) there was a Ford engineer who parked his new Lincoln
outside in Michigan year round who used synethic oil and did not change it for 100K miles.
This was earlier than the availability of Mobil 1 BTW.
So it can and has been done many times I'm sure.
Synthetic oils such as; Mobil One were not commonly available till 1974. Keep in mind that cars such as Chevrolet Corvette specify Mobil One 0w30 to 5w30 and up to 15,000 miles OCI's(per year). Indeed Honda Civic with 5w20 CONVENTIONAL oil has an oem recommendation of 10,000 miles OCI's! (Ford specs being more stringent)
So even with your Ford Focus, we've come a long way.
So as an example, Amsoil takes FULL advantage of this. (this is not to say that Amsoil is NOT a good oil, it IS) There are a few side by side studies that indicate Mobil One can easily go the 15,000 miles (and have sufficient TBN remaining), while oils like Amsoil goes 10-12,000 miles, while advertising a guarantee for 25,000 miles.
So they know that EVEN when the oil is technically EXHAUSTED (actually ADDITIVES), real world statistics indicates no real significant wear that will induce oil related damage under warranty, normally 36,000 to 60,000 miles. TRANSLATION: very very very REMOTE!!! They GUARANTEE IT!!!!??? (I hope folks really understand what I am saying here) They further guarantee, if you are mildly unsuccessful in reversing dealer or oem warranty non service due to use of AMSOIL, they will help you petition the oem! (Their petition refers to the anti trust act and requirement the oem PROVE specifically that AMSOIL did the damage)
The bottom line is they play a good legal 3 shell guess under what shell the pea is under routine! (reasonable doubt vs oem need for proof positive) Indeed if you read the guarantee there is NO I repeat NO provision for oil replacement if the TBN is so called exhausted at say 10-12k of a 25,000 mile OCI. If you do not believe me go, indeed RUN to those web sites!!! The irony is that most Amsoil sites also sell UOA kits!!!!!
I remember very well the experimentation that the Ford engineer did with that Lincoln. While it is true that he didn't change the oil for a considerable length of time (IIRC, he was running 25,000 mile OCIs), it is also true that he was doing oil analysis every couple thousand miles AND he was adding make-up oil either as the engine consumed it or when he replaced the filter.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Good stuff, eh Maynard?
But still I can understand folks' reluctance. However to that, I would point to conducting trend UOA's, which oxymoronically, people are even less inclined to conduct.
I'm all for having fun, driving fast and being silly but I refuse to purposely destroy a good piece of machinery for no good reason except to be a contrarian.
OEMS produce cars that consumers want. So for example, if Toyota wants to produce sludge monsters and folks still buy them, then whose fault is it?
On the other hand, I chose the Honda Civic over the Toyota Corolla. One reason; Honda recommends 10,000 mile OCI's on CONVENTIONAL oil!!! I trust if you are interested it is simple to find out what Toyota recommends for the Corolla! So in that sense, I voted with the purse strings!!! I also applaud Honda's designing a car that actually enhances its already sterling reputation for economy.
The technical issues CAN be stated in a sort of shorthand. 5w20 spec oil has a TBN of 7, while Mobil One 5w20 has a TBN of 12. TBN of 12 is 42% more than 7. So if you are even remotely conservative, a 42% factor puts the 10,000 OCI with conventional oil at 14,200 OCI.
TO: synthetic oil, like: Mobil One 0w20/5w20. Sorry for the confusion.
Krzys
PS I believe some manufacturers design new engines and schedule maintenance taking into account modern oils. Problems arise when old oils with old customs meet new technology (Toyota and VW sludge issues.
I don't find a requirement in the owners manual in the glove box. These are brand name Havoline, Valvoline, etc., oils. I won't use them in my 03 3800 GM motor.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
In depth research is ALL the more IMPORTANT that ever before. At the very least, it is almost mandatory to READ THE ------- MANUAL (RT _ M) BEFORE purchase. Once purchased you are rather... committed (good and or bad or both!). I as a minimum, talk to the mechanics (BEFORE purchase) who maintain the engine models of interest.
Thanks.
I am SURE Mobil 5w30 IS 6/7 TBN.
Mobil "ONE" 5w30 IS 11/12 TBN (product and test variation)
If the container is sealed, it shouldn't be much of a problem. Oils that have been opened have a shelf life, because once opened, contaminates start to work on the oil.
Organic oil more so than synthetic.
You might think about popping off the valve cover to see what's what, and also ask about type of oil they are using.