Synthetic motor oil

shipo

"i looked under the oil cap of my in laws passat and saw some black crud underneath...how much is acceptable or normal..."

Simple answer; none, zero, zip, zilch, nada. VWoA retroactively changed the oil spec for your engine in the 2002-2003 time frame to a high quality synthetic oil for all 1.8T engines going back to the late 1990s. If that engine has sludge in it (and it sounds like it does), I'd be getting it to a mechanic pronto to have it thoroughly inspected (i.e. cam cover(s) off and possibly even an oil pan drop or failing that sending a video pickup into the pan to inspect the oil inlet screen).

The above procedure won't be cheap, and any remediation won't be cheap either, however, combined they'll be a fraction of the cost of a new engine (which it sounds like they'll need if they continue along with their current maintenance practices).

Best Regards,
Shipo

ruking1

This is an addition, as you have hit the nail on the head. After the remediation (if needed)and while I have not reviewed the oem's owners, shop and technical manuals for the specific gasser 1.8T engine model in question, two oils come to mind; Mobil One's 0w40 and 5w40 (Truck & Suv)aka Delvac 5w40. Ow40 I believe meets the VW specification directly, and the 5w40 meets the higher ACEA standard.

wilcox

It's $3.99 per quart at my retailer. Thats pretty high compared to non-synthetic. But I guess it's worth it.

shipo

FWIW, I don't know of any synthetic oil that meets the 503.01 spec that is less than $5.00 per quart (usually higher). Typically I see Mobil 1 0W-40 and German made Castrol Syntec 0W-30 in the $5.50 to $6.00 range.

Best Regards,
Shipo

wilcox

Meant to add that that price was was average price per quart out of a 5 quart jug.

The vendor is our Walmart here in this W. Georgia town. Both Mobile 1 and Castrol Syntec were on sale - all available weights.

It looked like such a good deal that we purchased 4 jugs of the stuff ...for our 4 diff vehicles. Hope price is that way over at your locations.

shipo

Hmmm, nice deal. No, the pricing at Wallyworld isn't the same up here in New Hamster. I've checked several times and the per quart price is just about identical between the single quart bottles and the five quart jugs.

Best Regards,
Shipo

ruking1

This may or not be any consolation, but so called synthetic oils sold in the European market are usually 10-15 dollars US. So 20 bux for a 5 qt container of Mobil One is not a bad deal. As you know the oem recommendation is a 10,000 miles OCI.

While Shipo will probably disagree, I run a 25,000 miles OCI on a VW Jetta TDI which I plan to keep between 500,000 miles to 1,000,000 miles. I just had my first timing belt and water pump change, so it is still a baby at 100,000 miles. Visual inspection indicated literally little to no wear markings on the high points of the camshaft. Original tool markings were clearly visible. The innards of the top of the engine were shiny. There was not a hint of either varnish build up and/or sludge. The regional guru's take was "what's the big deal" :shades: (All cool, in English)

The intake was inspected. (by our local regional guru) While blacken, there was no build up. It was pronounced good to go, to a min of the next timing belt change. (200,000 mile mark)

shipo

For a diesel being run on Delvac I probably wouldn't disagree. That said, I'd also like to see a few UOAs taken from the oil pan after the car has run at least 20,000 miles since the last oil change. While I wouldn't be at all surprised to see some TBN to spare, I wouldn't bet my last dollar that the TDI can go the full 25,000 without some concrete UOA evidence. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

chetj

my bro in law is legendary for not changing his oil, or even adding sometime...i told my sister last weekend (and showed her) the black stuff..i had to twist her arm to change oil at a 8k oci (dino) last january...they at least went to syn blend (5k on current run)...they went on a 600 mile r/t to canada this week..i am interested to see what will happen eventually...anyways it is a nice car and it is far from being paid off but i have told them they cant do their regular halfass at best maintenance on this turbo, it is notorious for sludge (esp w/ owners like them)...i also said USE SYNTHETIC...he doesnt care..they only bought it last summer...2001 passat

1racefan

I just bought a new vehicle. It even has a service reminder on the digital information screen that counts down in 7500 mile incriments. I have always been one to go above and beyond in terms of oil changes and maintenance. This vehicle will be driven about 9,000 miles per year, as a daily driver for my wife. I know that a lot of people say "just do what your owners manual says", but I still feel uncomfortable with a 7500 mi OCI on conventional oil.

Should I:
a) go 7500 miles on conventional like it says?
b) go 7500 miles on synthetic?
c) go 5000 miles on conventional?

For what it's worth, I am more interested in doing what is best for the car, than I am about saving money on oil changes.

shipo

Option B.

Use a good quality Synthetic Oil and run it for the full OCI. Even then the oil will most likely be good to go for another several thousand miles, but staying within the maintenance requirements for warranty purposes is far more important than eeking out every last mile from your oil.

Best Regards,
Shipo

1racefan

Thanks,
As a follow-up, how long should I leave the oil in that came in the car? I heard that the current machining procedures are a lot cleaner now than they used to be, and there is less "debris" in new engines. Should I leave it in for 3,000, then change over to synthetic, or change sooner?

shipo

You're going to get LOTS of varied responses on this one. ;-)

I have yet to see any concrete evidence that says that the factory fill cannot easily last for three to five thousand miles. Me? I'd probably start thinking about an oil change once I'd crossed the 3,000 mile mark. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

pulgo

I changed the oil in my new car at about 2k miles and sent the sample for an oil analysis. Good thing I did because wear metals were quite high.

Well, they are in all new engines and that's why an early oil change will be beneficial.

chetj

i changed at 3 k on my new car...if money is no option go with the syn every 7500..i am using syn now in my 07 and changing at 8k, manual says 5k...i dont think they can deny warranty coverage based on a extended oci...and really 7500k on a syn oil is conservative...maybe i am wrong but i am not changing my oil every 5 k on a syn oil to satisfy my owners manual...it is a personal decision

shipo

Just because the wear metals were high in the oil you UOAed doesn't mean that the engine wasn't being properly protected. As we all know, high wear metals virtually ALWAYS show up in new engine UOAs, however, the oil filter is more than capable of dealing with bits large enough to cause a problem.

Best Regards,
Shipo

ruking1

Why can make a HUGE difference ! You do not mention the mileage range you intend to go or how long you will keep this car.

Why. (in my case) On my 2004 Civic, the mileage I intend to go is 4/5 timing belt/water pump changes @ 105,000 miles per belt/water pump change= 420,000-525,000 miles. Assuming you are using the recommended specified oil, (in my case 5w20, 0w20, Honda and/or Ford specifications-FORD being more stringent) there is no reason why you can not go YOUR full interval (7,500 miles). (in my case interval= 10,000 miles, conventional oil.) Honda (owner's manual) made a BIG deal about leaving in the conventional oem fill for the FULL interval term. (10,000 miles). It made a further HUGE deal to say further that the MAJORITY of drivers do NOT meet the SEVERE cycle (5,000 miles), despite the fact that there is GREAT pressure to classify one's vehicle in the severe category.

My .02 cents converges with Shipo, after the first FULL interval. At 7500 miles, change/switch to a high quality synthetic oil i.e., Mobil One.

Because I am way past the warranty mileage, 3 years/36,000 miles, I "self insure" anyway. I run 20,000 mile OCI's with 20k oil filter (recommended for the filter)change. The car runs like the proverbial top. You can see the original tool markings. There is NO sludge and/or varnish build up/formation. The innards are shiny! It gets 38/43 mpg on a daily commute (EPA of 29/38 mpg). We almost always use the A/C. My wife listens to baseball on the am band. :sick:

1racefan

"Why. (in my case) On my 2004 Civic, the mileage I intend to go is 4/5 timing belt/water pump changes 105,000 miles per belt/water pump change= 420,000-525,000 miles."

See, it has been my experience, with the way I typically maintain cars, that the engine and transmission are the last things to go. With the case of your Civic, the engine and tranny, if properly maintained, MAY last forever, but I would bet the electronics, a/c, cv / axles, etc... will not.

To answer your question, I will probably keep the car until I get nickle and dimed enough to where I might as well use my repair money on payments for a new, warrantied vehicle (and get the pleasure of driving something new).

jdonline

I was told that Mobil 1 SuperSyn doesn't require the engine to be flushed when you switch or add to your existing oil. Can anyone follow up on the validity of that?

ruking1

I positively, absolutely did NOT flush, after draining the conventional oem fill @ 10,000 miles and refilling with 3.2 quarts of Mobil One 0w20.

shipo

There hasn't been a synthetic oil on the market in decades that has required the engine to be flushed prior to switching to synthitic, if ever.

If you want to change to synthetic, then change to synthetic, simple as that.

Best Regards,
Shipo

ruking1

Indeed the specifications indicate TOTAL compatibility. While I would not do it (for a host of reasons) one can mix match, blend to ones' hearts content.

pulgo

Shipo:

I know, wear metals are always high and contaminant concentrations go down quickly over the first few OCI's.

I just can't help it. I feel better changing the oil more often initially.

After the third oil change I will drive the car for at least 10k and after an UOA maybe go to 15k intervals (with synthetic oil of course) and possibly extend intervals further, depending on the analysis results.

A dual filter by-pass sistem is in my plans too! I removed it from my previous 2001 Echo.

blufz1

Don't use that terminology! That chick from Phoenix will be back in here!

blufz1

Next oil change coming up! I'm going from Mobil 1 to Mobil 1 Extended Performance. M claims it has 50% more supersyn. If I get a .2 mpg bump the better oil pays for itself. What do you guys think?

ruking1

Ultimately I decided NOT to stock or use it, in the interest of increased cost for no real performance advantage and increased inventory.

When the extended performance first came out, I was all over this-research wise On the practical basis, this also increased the complexity. I was already doing the 15,000 mile OCI's on the Mobil One 0w30,5w30. These are already wonderful results (with the normal Mobil One) despite the CONSERVATIVE 15,000 miles OCI's. Without a series of UOA's I was not willing to extend this to 20,000-25,000-30,000 miles OCI's. The extended performance did/does NOT meet the GM spec 4178 M for another machine. The Toyota Landcruisers that COULD use the extended performance ALSO could use the following: 0w30,5w30,0w40 products and in the 5w30 Truck and SUV and extended range.

I think you would gain a slight mpg just by going to a 0W product if you are not already using it!

blufz1

Thanks,as always,for your opinion. Society has me well trained,I'm "afraid" to use anything other than the 5-20 Honda reccommends + I've already bot the 5-20 Extended. I'll go by the dealer in the next few weeks and let them change it out. I'll let you guys know what I think after running it. Don't know that any mpg increase is measureable but we'll see. Thanks again.

ruking1

Glad you came in with some more information. I am also using the Mobil 0w20 and I have to say it is even a better oil than the already stellar 5w20! I am pretty sure the extended performance does NOT come in 0w20. But in any case, the 5w20 in extended performance DOES meet the Ford/Honda specifications.

https://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Mobil_1_Extended_Performance_- - - 5W-20.aspx

So since you have it, I would look forward to your analysis on the product. Since I run the Mobil One 0w20 and or 5w20 @20,000 miles OCI's, I would not have much concern for the ep product, even as I know you have stated concerns on a few occasions.

blufz1

Thanks for letting me know that the 5-20 I got meets the oem specs. Really,.2 mpg is not is not much addl to get. I got about .5 to 1 mpg better when I went to Mobil 1 so it paid for itself.

dudleyr

I use the 0w-20. Mobil says it is "ideal for 5w-20" applications in Honda and others.

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Mobil_1_0W-20.aspx

ruking1

So guys/gals, since I haven't bought oil in a while, what is the price per qt, 1 gal, 5 quart, etc., container of 0w20,5w20, 5w20 ep?

blufz1

5 qt jug of 5-20 m1 19.99 at walmart. Individual qts of 5-20 ep about 6.50. No jugs currently available.

sandman46

Just put in the information about my '06 Civic and they recommended 5W20 oil instead of the 0W20 oil. Really would like to extend my oil changes once I get to 20k miles, as then I'll have to pay for the remainder of oil changes for my car. Since I barely drive 8k miles per year, I could probably swap the oil every 1 1/2 years and still get superior engine protection.

The Sandman

blufz1

12 months max. Change it every Fall. Be careful not to void your warranty. Just my .02.

sandman46

The Sandman

wtd44

I have put over 1600 miles on my 2.3 liter Triumph motor, and I now consider my 2007 Rocket III broken in. If you have any familiarity with this engine, it is VERY automotive in configuration and build. However, it does share the engine oil with the transmission. It "ain't no fun" changing the oil, due to three drains, all of which are hex key plugs with difficult access. The owner's manual says that a 15W-50 synthetic is the factory's preference for oil changes. What reasonable choices do I have in synthetics?

roadburner

What reasonable choices do I have in synthetics?

That's a great bike! I also have a Triumph- a 1996 Speed Triple. I use BMW 15W-50 Synthetic Motorcycle oil. It's not too expensive and it's also relatively easy to find.

zuraxus

If I switch to synthetic oil on my '07 Odyssey, the oil ticknes sensor will adjust as well, it will be accurate , it is trustful thing to base on or better change the oil every so many miles? how many 7.5k , 10k ? thank you for any opinion.

ruking1

Generally the olm is calibrated for the specified oil, ( I am assuming NON synthetic 5w20 ) for the 07 Honda Odyssey (TBN 7) Once calibrated, the calibration is NOT change able.

The 2001 Corvette Z06's olm is calibrated for Mobil One 5w30 (with a TBN of 12) and up to 15,000 miles or one year.

So for example if a 7 tbn can go say 7,500 miles OCI's, then a 12 TBN (with a 41% better TBN) by virtual of using Mobil One 5w20, then 10,500 to 11,000 miles is a conservative extention.

zuraxus

I just called Honda's service dept. at one of the local dealers and they told me that oil life indicator reading is base on driven millage, not on oil condition, there is no sensor that tests oil's condition and I should call for oil change apt. at about 15% life left and that will be regardless driving conditions at about 3750 miles. I think this is the cheap way to bring the customer to the stealer... what do u think? thx

ruking1

On a practical basis the (OLM) measurement is an INDIRECT indicator. It is good in that it actually calculates those variables subjected to individual vehicles (which is the only one most owners care about). Yes it is ABSOLUTELY true the olm is based on those factors shown to affect TBN, and that it is NOT a direct oil sample! From the parameters of those variables, an "AL GORE RHYTHM " (algorithm) which in short hand calculates for "useful oil life remaining".

"I think this is the cheap way to bring the customer to the stealer... what do u think? thx "

YES and NO!

There is no statistical calculation showing for example what the affects/effects of say you changing oil when an olm goes off at say 7,500 miles vs a oem mileage certain of say 10,000 miles.

As you have probably surmised, a direct oil sample can be done. It can cost more than just changing the oil a tad earlier. Again, millions and probably billions are wasted on this reasonable or unreasonable doubt argument.

Oil analysis started off more to measure FLEET trend line, for statistical and specific maintenance programs. Obviously the individual members can be sampled. UOA kits are available to the consumer markets.

wtd44

Many thanks! I also came across an Amsoil study of motorcycle oils. Have you seen it?
http://www.enhancedsyntheticoil.com/New_Motorcycle_Oils.htm?gclid=CP3JjbWvhY4CFR- - LNIgodLh0_QQ

Click on the "white paper" to get some informative, dry reading.

chetj

i bought a 4 quart jug of valvoline full syn at advanced auto parts for 9.95..i think wm has it for 12$...what a deal...perfect for my 4 cylinders

roadburner

Thanks for the link! It looks like the BMW oil is still a pretty good choice. A columnist on webBikeWorld.com rides a T-Bird Sport and this article convinced me to go with the BMW Synthetic. I would think any of the top five 50 group oils would be an excellent choice, but I'd still lean towards the BMW due to the fact that it is a 15W-50, which is the viscosity that Triumph recommends. I've read -but haven't verified- that Golden Spectro makes BMW's oils. In any case, Golden Spectro certainly seems to produce quality oils.

sandman46

Just got back where I had the 2nd "free" oil change done at just below 10k miles. I still havr the upcoming "free" 15k service, basically the same as the 10k but it includes a tire rotation. Asked the service writer if when I come back for that service, can I just pay the difference and have synthetic put in the engine. He basically went on to discourage me from that and even using any synthetic product. His reasoning is that Honda's 5W20 oil meets all their standards and with the oil life minder system, there would be no need whatsoever to switch. I even mentioned the longer change intervals and the dramatically incresed protection, but he was quite firm on his opinion.
I will be using the tire place or Honda store within my city after the 15k service anyways, so I'll get there opinion also. I like to at least do an oil change at the closest dealership just in case any unforseen warranty issues do crop up, i will at least be on record for having a service done at their store. Would it bring me any future goodwill or even a free loaner if something under warranty fails and they must keep the car for a time. I'm hoping it would. We'll just have to see what happens and will be interested on their take of synthetic oil over dino.
They also checked out the strange noise in back going over speed bumps and concluded it was just tire noise. Drove with the tech also and he concurred. Will be keeping my ears open, as over bigger speed bumps, there's definitely something going on.

The Sandman

chetj

everybody knows synthetic is better than regular oil even though dino is excellent nowadays...syn is especially good in cold and hot weather and engine start up...i am using m1 in my new focus.., and soon i will put in a jug of valvoline full synthetic in my sunfire...only 9.95

pulgo

Mobil 1 is a full synthetic. Valvoline is a hydrocracked group III oil. There is quite a difference in the UOA's.

Take a look at www bob is the oilguy dot com

wtd44

I have long held that a top notch polyol is about as good as synthetic oil gets. I have used Red Line in the past, and now note that the cost is "astronomical" for my Triumph Rocket III, and I have not yet priced the automotive variety.

tamu2002

I'm contemplating on this too. I use Mobil 5W30 in our Nissan van but for my 06 Accord I'm thinking sticking with the regular 5W20, simply because the oil life is so long per the monitor that there's no point switching to synthetic. My current batch of oil is 6 months and 4K miles old, and the monitor is only at 50%. That's good enough for me, although it has burned about 0.8 qt of oil.

Question to you all: is the Accord 4-cy known to burn oil like this? My car has 10K miles. And I drive very gently.

rhiebert

0.8 sounds like a lot. Wife & I drove to the prairies and back, which is about 4,800 kms. and the dip stick was off the full mark only a fraction, topped-up with maybe a half a cup of Amsoil's XL, 5W-30. I get 12,000 kms or six months with it.
Some Toyotas, probably the older ones that are maintained, are famous for sludge and smokey exhusts. Because yours is '06 looks like it should be OK.