I happen to know that there is data that says synthetic lubricants can last significantly longer than 20000 miles. I found this as an example mack truck 409,000 on one oil change, I know this is a different animal than your standard vehicle, it is an over the road truck. But with bypass filtration, oil analysis, and regular filter changes it can last quite a bit longer in Internal combustion engines. I am also an aircraft mechanic, and know the difference between the oil you pour into an Embraer 145, a Cessna 150, and a Ford F250. they are designed for totally different applications. They have totally different additive packages for the type of duty they would expect out of each particular application. but you can see significantly longer OCI with synthetics versus conventionals.
"I happen to know that there is data that says synthetic lubricants can last significantly longer than 20000 miles. I found this as an example mack truck 409,000 on one oil change, I know this is a different animal than your standard vehicle, it is an over the road truck. But with bypass filtration, oil analysis, and regular filter changes it can last quite a bit longer in Internal combustion engines."
Nope, sorry, apples to oranges. Diesel engines don't introduce anywhere near the amout of harmful (to both oil and engine) contaminates that diesels do. Another thing to consider is that the big truck diesel engines consume a fair amount of oil and as such many actually have new oil reservoirs that continually feed oil into the engine as it is burned. In that scenario, you may never need to change the oil, simply change the massive filter on a periodic basis and keep adding oil.
As for gasoline fueled automobile and light truck engines, please show me UOAs of any engine running on any oil that proves that the oil is good to go well beyond the 20,000 mile mark. I've spent a lot of time browsing the UOA database over on BITOG and have yet to see a single UOA prove that point. That said, the new R18 Honda Civic engine looks like it might be able to perform that feat with very careful driving, however, I have yet to see it done.
"I am also an aircraft mechanic, and know the difference between the oil you pour into an Embraer 145, a Cessna 150, and a Ford F250. they are designed for totally different applications. They have totally different additive packages for the type of duty they would expect out of each particular application. but you can see significantly longer OCI with synthetics versus conventionals."
Are you advocating using synthetic oils in GA piston engines? If you are then PLEASE stay away from the planes that I fly (and the 170B that I'm shopping for). The truth of the matter is that while synthetic oils may be a lot of things, things that I demand for the oil in the engines of my cars, however, they ARE NOT appropriate for intermittent combustion engines running on 100LL. Why? Because PAO based oils are incapable of holding the TEL that isn't successfully scavenged by the bromide salts in suspension. After a while that TEL has a nasty tendency to collect in large enough quantities (in the form of a gray goo) on piston rings and then airplanes start falling out of the sky. Pass, I'll stick with AeroShell W100 if you please.
I did not ever say that I was advocating the use of synthetic oils in the engines of aircraft using 100LL, for gods sake I am a licensed aircraft mechanic and as far as I know, there aren't any. AeroShell W100 works great in piston engine aircraft only applications, but would not work worth a flip in a honda civic or a ford F250 with a 6.4 powerstroke I wouldn't advocate the use of AeroShell W100 for the use in any vehicle that is driven on the road. But for those of us who do drive a diesel engine powered road worthy vehicle there are synthetic alternatives that actually do last longer, but it depends on how you drive. I don't advocate going 409000 miles on one oil change, unless you are using some form of oil analysis and a bypass filtration system. I don't work on 170B's so no worrys for you there, I do however work on Embraer 145's I have yet to change the oil on one, we have one with over 25k hours of operation and several getting close to that mark. Never one oil change, but a completely different animal than your standard Honda Civic or Ford F250. I was suggesting that you may be able to go further than the recommended drain interval by using synthetic oils.
Tetra Ethyl Lead (TEL) isn't allowed to be put in road worthy vehicles anymore. would I suggest that someone do something illegal, Nope!!. I was mearly pointing out the fact that all 3 engine types perform the same function, through different means. The Embraer 145 has an Allison AE3007 A1 turbine engine on it, the oil in it has a different additive package than the oil I use in my Ford F250 with a 6.4l Powerstroke, Would I put BPTO2380 in my truck, heck no, Would I put Amsoil DEO in A Cessna 150, Heck No, besides the fact it isn't certified for that application, either by the FAA or AMSOIL, It won't work correctly. I know the difference between the oils. I make it a point to be informed, because with lives on the line who can afford not to be informed. The AeroShell W100 for the Cessna 150, the BPTO2380 for the Embraer 145, and the Amsoil DEO for my Ford F250 super duty. The correct oil for the correct application, that's what I advocate, and if I am misunderstood. Always consult your owners manual for the correct lubricant type and grade for your particular vehicle and driving conditions.
i would agree that one can increase the interval. the cost of these oils for some of us require it. also with the increased capacity of oil in the newer cars helps. the us of a quality filter should make this possible. what interval would you recommend for filter change if extending oil use. i have a gm vehicle and my oil life meter is generally at about 60% at around 4000 miles :confuse:
I would first ask, what is meant by "extended" interval?
For example, OEM recommendations:
For one vehicle (GM) a 15,000 miles OCI (Mobil One 5w30 synthetic) is the oem fill recommendation) and (oil) filter is also 15,000 miles OCI, and this is a ($2.00, got 12 when a local KMART was closing) AC Delco PF-44.
For another vehicle (Civic) the oem fill recommendation is 10,000 miles OCI (on conventional 5w20) with an oem (oil) FILTER recommendation of every other OCI or 20,000 miles.
For another vehicle (Jetta TDI), it is commonly known that the oem, Mann, Mayle (are among the oem vendors) make cartridge oil filter is made to go the 30,000 mile distance.
Other than gamesmanship, is there any compelling reason to run oil for an extended OCI in automobiles and light trucks? I think not. And that is a major reason I choose to run a hydrocracked mineral oil for 3-4 thousand miles, at which point I replace it. And of course, I change the filter at the same time, with one from an economical, reputable brand.
Actually a host of reasons, none of which have anything to do with gamesmanship. That is unless changing oil is a recreational activity? In a year for me that would be three oil changes vs 18-24 (3-4k oci's). This is not even to mention the 2.8x more cost of conventional oil and filters at the 3/4k OCI's.
this is my issue,the dealership cost of the oil change is about 75.00 with them furnishing the oil. that times 5 seems to me to be to much. i thought the synthetic should run maybe 8000mi. on a change. 80%plus of my driving is hiway. :mad:
Certainly, there are reasons. In the case of my wife and myself, we are driving nearly 1,500 miles per week combined, and if we were to adhere to your three to four thousand mile OCIs, I'd be doing a single oil change on average of every four weeks. No thanks. Instead I am running our cars at almost double the OCI recommended by the manufacturer (and three to four times that of what you are performing).
I do not know if this is worth your effort, but you can buy the oil (on sale for example) and bid the dealer change it out for you. Here, the prevailing rate is app 18 bux (15 min shop time) and disposal fees, if you provide your own oil, i.e. Mobil One 5w20/0w20. You can even provide your own filter. They may or may not hit you for the .20 cent (oil bolt) washer.
My Honda dealer charges me $10. I provide a $10 M1 filter and a $20 5 qt M1 jug from Walmart. My oil is hot when I arrive at the dealer and I am out in 30 min. The fewer times any tech touches your car the fewer chances they have to mess it up. Many tests indicate that the filter is most efficient after about 4k miles,etc.etc.
Different areas have their "rates". Truly it pays to shop around even in ones rate area! I do the oil change myself, as I REALLY subscribe to your observation. (unfortunately) In the worst case, I have no one else to blame. In the more normal cases, it is done according to how I want it done and I am reasonably assured the job is done correctly IAW with the technical data.
I also agree with your observation that tests indicate the filter gets more efficient after a few thousand miles. This is also true about oil, given a little known (SAE) oil study, which can be purchased and down loaded on line.
Essentially the point is so called "new" oil actually lets the affected engine parts WEAR down FASTER (microscopically) during its NEW oil phase, than so called older oil.
So oxymoronically, the more frequent the OC interval, which NEW oil is changed out, the FASTER the wear !!! So in the case of 3,000 vs 20,000 miles that is 6.7 TIMES faster!!! It begins its most effective lubrication job some thousands of miles in the crankcase!!!
Also the fear of the wear due to by products after many thousands of miles in the crankcase is WAY overblown. First of all the sulfur in RUG as been 30 ppm for a lot of years! This of course structurally lessens the formation and deposit of by products in the engine oil. This of course is a bit like cursing in the church when the mantra change oil every 3/4k is sung!
So in effect you are trying to see the relationship of app 3/4 overlapping variables and their 3/4 resulting statistical analysis AND correlations in a real life oil change.
What the product vendors do is gamble that you do not keep it long enough to where it really makes a difference!! They use statistics to market as much product as possible (within legal and moral guidelines, there is absolutely nothing wrong with this). My take is to use statistics to (in line with the LONGEST wear) use the LEAST and least amount of products and cost the least as possible !! So the next logical question in this progression is at what point does the so called dirty oil affect the speed of degradation of lubrication!!? My take of it is 15,000 miles ), 20,000 miles 25,000 miles. (on my cars, being conservative. ) So in that sense the philosophies are almost diametrically opposed @ cross purposes.
So in that sense, I do NOT fault someone that changes oil from 1,000 to 4,000 miles. But I have long since stopped changing oil at 1,000 to 4,000 miles!! My goal for the Civic as I have said before is 4 timing belt/water pump changes @ 105,000 miles (oem recommendation) or a min of 420,000 miles if not 480,000 miles. I also swag the automatic transmission will probably prove problematic way before the engine. Again this goes on and on, as there is empirical evidence that changing the auto transmission oil before its oem recommendation ( 120,000 miles or 6 years) IS detrimental!! (Dealers will recommend 30,000 miles FLUSHING, which can hasten even faster the onset of problems! )
you must be sore...just go to wal mart and get a regular oil change for 20 bucks...pennzoil especially and even supertech can go 7000 miles on hiway driving...or change it yourself for $25 and use synthetic like pennzoil or mobil one and go 10000 miles between changes...consumer reports did a big article back in 2001 about any api oil going 7500 miles in taxis...the oil is even a little better now...my neighbors subaru went 250k on 3k oil ocis( and still running ) on napa oil and i bet he wouldve done just as well on 7k oci...3k oci are unnecessary on normal driving
i have heard that too, that oil is at its best after around 2500 miles, something to do with extra protection from the colored oil...ford did a study on this...i think people should keep their oil in at least 6k...you could save a 1000 bucks on uneeded oil changes...my bro in law i does yearly 20k oil changes( not recomended) but he doesnt check his oil and gets low...then you have a problem
Yes many folks will point to innards with 3/4k OCI's and filter change and say see... SHINY!!! Again no fault and no arguments from me!!
HOWEVER!!!???.... I jusr recently had a long and deep look at the innards of a (my) Jetta TDI at 100,000 miles with 25,000 mile OCI's !!! Guess what?... SHINY!! Not even a hint of carbon or sludge build up! There were absolutely no wear marks on the all critical high points of the camshaft! Indeed one could see original tool markings!! The most telling thing was the tech guru's reaction: what IS the BIG deal, almost all of them are like that, given the use of correct oil!!!!!??? Delvac One 5w40 here!
In the past I had a Toyota Landcruiser sold at app 250,000 miles which had close to 17 valve adjustments. The dealer techs used to marvel at how clean and original the wear points were. Again Mobil One 5w30 @ 15,000 miles and Judas Priest FRAM PH8A oil filters!!!
My take is always keep the oil topped. Worst case: do NOT let it go below MIN on the dipstick. As a liquid body, part of the oils' calculated job is to convey, conduct, convect heat.
You can of course get it on line. I got it locally. The key is to look for local busineses that sell truck type (lubrication) products. If your application can use a 5w40 viscosity, Delvac One is acknowledged as one of the best oils Mobil One makes. I would have NO concerns substituting it for a 5w30 application.
It's the newest Valvoline SYNPOWER Product Data Sheet. It seems SYNPOWER MST 5W-30 meets the BMW Long Life 04 specifications and has even received formal approval from BMW. Might have to switch the Mazdaspeed over to that oil...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Yeah, I've seen it and I'm not impressed. Why? Several reasons actually:
1) IIRC, the BMW LL-04 specification is specifically for Diesel engines. Yes, no? 2) For gasoline engines the BMW LL-01 specification is still the minimum standard for all gasser BMWs. 3) Based upon my readings, I actually hold the VW 503.01 oil specification as the Holy Grail for gasoline engines, and oddly enough, the Valvoline Synpower 5W-30 has not met that standard.
Me? I'll stay with either GC 0W-30 or Mobil 1 0W-40, errr, at least until somebody else meets the 503.01 spec. ;-)
IIRC, the BMW LL-04 specification is specifically for Diesel engines. Yes, no?
I haven't got confirmation either way on that. My thinking was that the characteristics that make it a good diesel oil would make it better suited for DI engines with their attendent oil dilution issues.
For gasoline engines the BMW LL-01 specification is still the minimum standard for all gasser BMWs.
That wasn't my main concern, since I plan to keep my Bimmers on a steady diet of M1 0W-40.
I actually hold the VW 503.01 oil specification as the Holy Grail for gasoline engines, and oddly enough, the Valvoline Synpower 5W-30 has not met that standard.
Oops! Missed that. Good catch!
In any event, I still think it might prove to be a decent oil for my Mazdaspeed application
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Looks like the 650 is the best solution. I think I can use it on my lawnmower,motorcycles,and the lower unit gear oil on my 2 stroke outboard. Maybe I'll then graduate to my car. What a time saver. Thanks,again.
Now that is been awhile does anyone know or have a list of true Group IV synthetic oils avalable to the average consumer? I am thinking about switching from the factory/dealer fill of std 5W-20 to either a 0W-30 or a 5W-30 weight Synth. and I would perfer to have a Group IV oil. It is a 3.3L 2007 Sonata.
The only two that I know for sure that make a 0W-30 in Group IV are German made (check the label, it should say "Made in Germany" right on it) Castrol Syntec 0W-30 (all other Syntecs are Group III) and all Mobil 1 grades (but not necessarily Mobil 1 EP). As for 5W-30, the only Group IV that I am aware of that is readily available here in the U.S. is Mobil 1.
Now, if you want to step into oils that claim to meet the API standards, and claim to meet various manufacturers oil specifications, but have not been certified to meet any of those standards by independent labs, then you can look at Royal Purple, Red Line, Amsoil and probably a few others.
In the end, most folks buy Mobil 1 as it is the most widely available Group IV on the market. If you want to buy German Castrol Syntec 0W-30 (often referred to simply as GC), the only place where I consistently find it is at AutoZone.
Since it appears the oem making your Sonata recommends 5w20, why would you want to switch to either a 0w30,5w30? If anything, stay with (synthetic, group IV) Mobil One 0w20, 5w20. Ow20,5w20 Ford/Honda specified oils have to meet very robust standards. I have personally used Mobil One 5w30 for a lot of years and miles, but those engines are/were NOT designed for 0w20, 5w20. 0w30 usually is at premium to 5w30 also, but is a very very good oil, especially in Mobil One. I wouuld have no issues using 0w30 in place of 5w30,10w30 as it also meets the GM 4178 M standards. Actually in all the weights mentioned Mobil One is very very good.
Other group IV oils are Amsoil and Redline, (who both SAY they meet the standards, but indeed are NOT certified for to specifications for most of their oils) ELF. There are more, but some of the names escape me. You will find all three (and most others also) are at premium to Mobil One.
I am also told that Mobil One 0w40 shows great UOA numbers in place of 0w20,5w20 oils. But for your application, you would lose the fuel efficiency advantage, as you would with the 0w30,5w30. 0w30,0w40 are a bit of a hybrid in that they are generally used in European applications. So in that sense, I would not recommend them unless you are willing to cross check specifications and also take a chance on engine warranty issues, which is VERY, VERY, VERY, remote(same would be true of 0w30,5w30).
Thanks for the quick reply Shipo, and ruking (here is where the 0W-30 thought came from) I read a 100+page web book by an Amsoil convert and thats where I got the thought of dropping to a 0W-30 synth as thats what he, but who is he?? lol, recomended for a car that used 5W-20. My owners manual states that 5W-20, 5W-30, or a 10W-30 are acceptable so I am really hesatating about a switch to a 0W-30, I will probaly go to a 5W-30 year round for the added viscosity on the top end as I drive 60miles one way to work and I have not seen alot about how a 20 weight oil works in a long-life/high milage situation.
..."My owners manual states that 5W-20, 5W-30, or a 10W-30 are acceptable so I am really hesatating about a switch to a 0W-30"...
Indeed if your manual specifies the above oils, you have NO warranty concerns, not even with 0w30. Smaller issues such as 0w30 premiums and slightly higher fuel efficiencies now come to the fore.
How would I have no concerns with a 0W-30 weight oil? It is not one of the three weights they specify. They list the 3 grades I listed as well as API SJ, SL, or above. ILSAC GF-3 or above. If I buy a 0W-30 and do have a problem and need to show my receipts it will show the 0W-30 and they will point to that and say - show us the money. I am trying to really learn about oil so thats the reason for my questions.
First of all, go to the Mobil web site and scroll to the MOBIL 1 (ONE) specifications of those oils that we are talking. The Mobil 1 category will drop down to the various viscosities. Do a (mental) scan or comparison chart. (Print each out if it is confusing.) Do a compare and contrast. Since we are talking about the 0w30, focus on that. So you will see a lot of specifications each one will/will not meet!? Now look at those specifications of concern "...API SJ, SL, or above. ILSAC GF-3 or above."...
"But I am still worried the 0W-30 is NOT on the recommended weights of oil from the manufacture. So why am I even thinking about it????? lol"
What you seem to be missing is the fact that a Group IV oil in the 0W-30 grade is a superset of that same oil in either 5W-30 or 10W-30. The two critical items here are to have the first number (i.e. 0W, 5W or 10W) to be as low or lower than the recommendation, meanwhile you want to have the second number pretty much bang on (or maybe a bit higher) than the recommendation. Said another way, if your manufacturer recommends 10W-30, then you can also safely choose 5W-30 or 0W-30, if they recommend 5W-30 then you can choose that or a 0W-30. Make sense?
The benefit to the lower first number is that the oil will start flowing and be protecting internal engine components faster following a cold start than either a 5W-30 or a 10W-30. The colder the engine gets, the greater the advantage is for 0W-30.
Another thing to keep in mind is that for many older cars (our 1998 for instance), 0W-anything oils were all but non-existent when they were built and as such, manufacturers didn't start specifying then until fairly recently (with the excpetion of a number of European marques who were early adopters of 0W oils).
I understand that a 0W-30 oil flows better than a 5W-20, or 30 at low temps and the same at high temps. I am from the older generation (40+ here) and I have used a 10W-30 for over 500,000miles of driving so the switch down to a 0W has me really looking at all the info I can find. And as to winter temps in my area it rarely gets below 0deg F.
Well, I am thinking the real issues are comfort levels vs objective data sets. The reason why I suggested searching the data sets was for you to get comfort in what I and Shipo would eventually start to say.
So another source if you want to get a tad more on the arcane side is www.bobistheoilguy.com.
However I do agree with Shipo, if you can use the 0w, you do get both a faster and better flow. If 0w30 were NOT at premium to 5w30, I would go to that viscosity in a heartbeat. My other issue (small) is less line item stockage, as well as less units on inventory. In my case to illustrate the point, would I rather stock one viscosity (0w20), and the next oil change (up to 7 qts); or would I rather stock 5w40, (5 qts), 5w30 (8 qts), 5w20 (4 qts), for a total of 17 qts. ?
Looking over the data sheets closer I am ok with using 0W-30 if I can find it otherwise it will be 5W-20 Mobil 1. I used Mobil 1 back in 1989-1990 but switched to Synthtec when it came out on the shelves.
the last few posts have been very infomative. i use mobil1 in our vehicles, an 06 Torrent and an 07 Sierra. i have used 0W-30 in my wife's 98 intrigue because she leaves early in the cold mournings and it sits out all day in the cold. i have had fantastic results with the mobil1 oil and will continue to use it. i use 5W-30 in our current vehicles since they are still under warranty. before the intrigue was traded for the torrent, it was in the shop to have the intake replaced. out intrigue had the 3800 engine and was prone to the manifold(composit material) warpping at the egr valve and letting coolant into the engine. when the tech had the engine apart he commented on how perfectly clean the inside of the engine was. i have a question for those here. what brand of oil filter do you use and recommend? i have used the mobil1 filters, but was wondering if there are better ones out there. thanks richard
There are long answers and short answers. I will start with the short answers. If you and other folks are interested further, we can work on those as they come.
Short answer, using an example, OEM. Since almost all oil filters are vendored by someone else, OEM filters are made to OEM specifications. The Honda OEM Civic's oil filter is vendored by FRAM. (old Allied Systems) now owned by Honeywell. (flameproof suit on, SCBA at the ready)
The Honda Civic OEM recommendation for engine oil filter change is "EVERY OTHER" So since the recommended oil change is at 10,000 miles, 5w20 (CONVENTIONAL oil) fill, every other is 20,000 miles engine (oil) FILTER change. (flameproof suit on, SCBA ON)
Literally for my .02 cents, oem (FRAM in this case) AND the familar FRAM ORANGE model numbers are at premium to very well made, (CHAMPION LABS) WallyMart SuperTech filters at last purchase, $2.12 per oil filter. (flameproof suit on, SCBA ON-fire fight is ON)
I change the Mobil One 0w20 AND filter @ 20,000 miles OCI's, because I am a conservative, belt and suspenders kind of guy!
That is a good point/question, so I will not reinvent the wheel here. Most of what I said or have in effect concluded, but more importantly done and continue to do, can be gleaned from www.bobistheoilguy.com.
The issues became starkly clear to me in that I use a so called OEM/vendor ed cartridge oil filter in a VW Jetta TDI. It is MADE to go a 30,000 mile OCI. (Made to support the VW 507.00 specification, the so called LL or long life oil (up to 30,000 miles) Short story shorter, I wish ALL my cars had 1. top access 2. cartridge type oil filters.
As you can surmise, that is a a 1/3 over the OEM/vendor ed by FRAM- Honda Civic. MORE cents/dollars in a cartridge filter (CAN) be used to upgrade the filtration and/or charge less or both! . Contrast this with the normal spin on/off filter. The majority of the spin on/off parts are related to STRUCTURE and NOT filtration and this is no matter the cost. In both cases because of the fact the oil filter is designed to be an overflow valve, you can only get the particle filtration down so far before it tends to impeded high volume oil flow. Oxymoronically oil filters (as well as air filters) filter better slightly to moderately "used"!!?? So again, oxymoronically when the oil filter is functioning BEST is when it is most likely to be removed for a new one which does NOT FILTER AS WELL!!!!??? So filtration can be measured, compared and contrasted much more microscopically, so to speak with multiple and long term trend line UOA's.
Yes indeed it does make logical sense, higher cost higher quality, but....Now the weird question : is it statistically correlated!!??? The answer is NO or at best unclear. So that I am being clear: if my car will last to say 250,000 miles with the "el crappo tsk, tsk" filter: with 4x better the cost (of the spin on/off oil filter) will my engine last 1 M miles? Do you see the disconnect here?
Following the logic to another bottom line here: almost NO folks (% wise) use bypass oil filtration!!?? Aftermarket is so called costly, but given the above logic (250,000 miles to 1,000,000 miles) CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP??!! (200-300). In addition the oems can get the cost down exponentially LOWER if the oems put it in. (pure volume comes to mind here)
Here you can in effect use a very "fine screen" filter. Indeed some Amsoil (EA models) bypass oil filters, literally microscopically scrub the oil to a cleaner conditions than when it comes factory sealed from the BOTTLE!!! Again Oxymoronically installation of this "benefit" can actually VOID or make tougher engine warranty fulfillment in the absolutely remote chance you do have engine issues.
So statistics are really on your side when you follow what the OEM's recommend. When you want to do either slightly to radically different things, a little research and sites like www.bobistheoilguy.com come in handy and are indeed considered required.
Again you will probably want to comply with oem recommendations during the relatively short warranty periods. After that, you self warranty anyway.
have there been any lab tests as to how well brands differ in their efficientcy to filter different micron levels from the oil. are some brands able to filter out contaminates to a smaller micron level without impeding oil flow. i am talking of the spin-on bypass type only. thanks
Actually you might go to the area of your choice on www.bobstheoilguy and look at the UOA's area of your interest. They also have the filter section. All have individual differences, the hardest to do are the correlation studies. It is easy for example to say that Mobil One filters filter BETTER (which they probably do) it is another to make a correlation (either pos or neg) and even another to say if I use Mobil One filters (all other things being equal, which they are not) the engine will last 30,40,50k miles longer etc etc. The folks/labs that do the actual UOA, Used Oil Analysis do have the data and if you speak to them off line they will probably tell you their preferences,
As you can probably see and surmise, there are a lot more things going on than just changing your oil and filter at 3,000 miles.
Is there anything to suggest that filtering down down down to smaller and smaller micron levels is even worth the trouble? Isn't this the old "more is always better" argument?
Absolutely YES! And absolutely NO! I can put these answers in context for those who would like to provide the context, or if folks want to know in what context I apply the information !
Please explain the old "more is always better" argument?
As the owner of 3 vehicles that have a dual by-pass Amsoil oil filter system installed, I can only say the every oil analysis I have had done comes back with outstanding results.
Contaminants levels in the used oil are lower than most other reported results (by other vehicle owners) with a third of the miles driven.
After OCI's of 12 to 15K miles my results are consistently better than other reports with 5K miles or less.
This does not mean that the oil is fit for longer intervals simply because the TBN is low enough to warrant a change.
What I am trying to say is that based on that personal experience I venture to guess that the engines in my cars will last a lot longer than average.
Will I reap the benefit of a longer engine life in my cars? Probably not because I sell them usually around the 300K mile mark.
A trucking company or a taxi cab company may be able to tell whether a difference in engine wear is measurable for higher mileages. They would know if there is a payback or not for the investment.
Comments
409,000 on one oil change, I know this is a different animal than your standard vehicle, it is an over the road truck. But with bypass filtration, oil analysis, and regular filter changes it can last quite a bit longer in Internal combustion engines. I am also an aircraft mechanic, and know the difference between the oil you pour into an Embraer 145, a Cessna 150, and a Ford F250. they are designed for totally different applications. They have totally different additive packages for the type of duty they would expect out of each particular application. but you can see significantly longer OCI with synthetics versus conventionals.
qball1976
Nope, sorry, apples to oranges. Diesel engines don't introduce anywhere near the amout of harmful (to both oil and engine) contaminates that diesels do. Another thing to consider is that the big truck diesel engines consume a fair amount of oil and as such many actually have new oil reservoirs that continually feed oil into the engine as it is burned. In that scenario, you may never need to change the oil, simply change the massive filter on a periodic basis and keep adding oil.
As for gasoline fueled automobile and light truck engines, please show me UOAs of any engine running on any oil that proves that the oil is good to go well beyond the 20,000 mile mark. I've spent a lot of time browsing the UOA database over on BITOG and have yet to see a single UOA prove that point. That said, the new R18 Honda Civic engine looks like it might be able to perform that feat with very careful driving, however, I have yet to see it done.
"I am also an aircraft mechanic, and know the difference between the oil you pour into an Embraer 145, a Cessna 150, and a Ford F250. they are designed for totally different applications. They have totally different additive packages for the type of duty they would expect out of each particular application. but you can see significantly longer OCI with synthetics versus conventionals."
Are you advocating using synthetic oils in GA piston engines? If you are then PLEASE stay away from the planes that I fly (and the 170B that I'm shopping for). The truth of the matter is that while synthetic oils may be a lot of things, things that I demand for the oil in the engines of my cars, however, they ARE NOT appropriate for intermittent combustion engines running on 100LL. Why? Because PAO based oils are incapable of holding the TEL that isn't successfully scavenged by the bromide salts in suspension. After a while that TEL has a nasty tendency to collect in large enough quantities (in the form of a gray goo) on piston rings and then airplanes start falling out of the sky. Pass, I'll stick with AeroShell W100 if you please.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Tetra Ethyl Lead (TEL) isn't allowed to be put in road worthy vehicles anymore. would I suggest that someone do something illegal, Nope!!. I was mearly pointing out the fact that all 3 engine types perform the same function, through different means. The Embraer 145 has an Allison AE3007 A1 turbine engine on it, the oil in it has a different additive package than the oil I use in my Ford F250 with a 6.4l Powerstroke, Would I put BPTO2380 in my truck, heck no, Would I put Amsoil DEO in A Cessna 150, Heck No, besides the fact it isn't certified for that application, either by the FAA or AMSOIL, It won't work correctly. I know the difference between the oils. I make it a point to be informed, because with lives on the line who can afford not to be informed. The AeroShell W100 for the Cessna 150, the BPTO2380 for the Embraer 145, and the Amsoil DEO for my Ford F250 super duty. The correct oil for the correct application, that's what I advocate, and if I am misunderstood. Always consult your owners manual for the correct lubricant type and grade for your particular vehicle and driving conditions.
Qball1976
what interval would you recommend for filter change if extending oil use. i have a gm vehicle and my oil life meter is generally at about 60% at around 4000 miles :confuse:
For example, OEM recommendations:
For one vehicle (GM) a 15,000 miles OCI (Mobil One 5w30 synthetic) is the oem fill recommendation) and (oil) filter is also 15,000 miles OCI, and this is a ($2.00, got 12 when a local KMART was closing) AC Delco PF-44.
For another vehicle (Civic) the oem fill recommendation is 10,000 miles OCI (on conventional 5w20) with an oem (oil) FILTER recommendation of every other OCI or 20,000 miles.
For another vehicle (Jetta TDI), it is commonly known that the oem, Mann, Mayle (are among the oem vendors) make cartridge oil filter is made to go the 30,000 mile distance.
Best Regards,
Shipo
I also agree with your observation that tests indicate the filter gets more efficient after a few thousand miles. This is also true about oil, given a little known (SAE) oil study, which can be purchased and down loaded on line.
Essentially the point is so called "new" oil actually lets the affected engine parts WEAR down FASTER (microscopically) during its NEW oil phase, than so called older oil.
So oxymoronically, the more frequent the OC interval, which NEW oil is changed out, the FASTER the wear !!! So in the case of 3,000 vs 20,000 miles that is 6.7 TIMES faster!!! It begins its most effective lubrication job some thousands of miles in the crankcase!!!
Also the fear of the wear due to by products after many thousands of miles in the crankcase is WAY overblown. First of all the sulfur in RUG as been 30 ppm for a lot of years! This of course structurally lessens the formation and deposit of by products in the engine oil. This of course is a bit like cursing in the church when the mantra change oil every 3/4k is sung!
So in effect you are trying to see the relationship of app 3/4 overlapping variables and their 3/4 resulting statistical analysis AND correlations in a real life oil change.
What the product vendors do is gamble that you do not keep it long enough to where it really makes a difference!! They use statistics to market as much product as possible (within legal and moral guidelines, there is absolutely nothing wrong with this). My take is to use statistics to (in line with the LONGEST wear) use the LEAST and least amount of products and cost the least as possible !! So the next logical question in this progression is at what point does the so called dirty oil affect the speed of degradation of lubrication!!? My take of it is 15,000 miles ), 20,000 miles 25,000 miles. (on my cars, being conservative.
So in that sense, I do NOT fault someone that changes oil from 1,000 to 4,000 miles. But I have long since stopped changing oil at 1,000 to 4,000 miles!!
HOWEVER!!!???.... I jusr recently had a long and deep look at the innards of a (my) Jetta TDI at 100,000 miles with 25,000 mile OCI's !!! Guess what?... SHINY!! Not even a hint of carbon or sludge build up! There were absolutely no wear marks on the all critical high points of the camshaft! Indeed one could see original tool markings!! The most telling thing was the tech guru's reaction: what IS the BIG deal, almost all of them are like that, given the use of correct oil!!!!!??? Delvac One 5w40 here!
In the past I had a Toyota Landcruiser sold at app 250,000 miles which had close to 17 valve adjustments. The dealer techs used to marvel at how clean and original the wear points were. Again Mobil One 5w30 @ 15,000 miles and Judas Priest FRAM PH8A oil filters!!!
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
1) IIRC, the BMW LL-04 specification is specifically for Diesel engines. Yes, no?
2) For gasoline engines the BMW LL-01 specification is still the minimum standard for all gasser BMWs.
3) Based upon my readings, I actually hold the VW 503.01 oil specification as the Holy Grail for gasoline engines, and oddly enough, the Valvoline Synpower 5W-30 has not met that standard.
Me? I'll stay with either GC 0W-30 or Mobil 1 0W-40, errr, at least until somebody else meets the 503.01 spec. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
I haven't got confirmation either way on that. My thinking was that the characteristics that make it a good diesel oil would make it better suited for DI engines with their attendent oil dilution issues.
For gasoline engines the BMW LL-01 specification is still the minimum standard for all gasser BMWs.
That wasn't my main concern, since I plan to keep my Bimmers on a steady diet of M1 0W-40.
I actually hold the VW 503.01 oil specification as the Holy Grail for gasoline engines, and oddly enough, the Valvoline Synpower 5W-30 has not met that standard.
Oops! Missed that. Good catch!
In any event, I still think it might prove to be a decent oil for my Mazdaspeed application
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Best Regards,
Shipo
Now, if you want to step into oils that claim to meet the API standards, and claim to meet various manufacturers oil specifications, but have not been certified to meet any of those standards by independent labs, then you can look at Royal Purple, Red Line, Amsoil and probably a few others.
In the end, most folks buy Mobil 1 as it is the most widely available Group IV on the market. If you want to buy German Castrol Syntec 0W-30 (often referred to simply as GC), the only place where I consistently find it is at AutoZone.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Other group IV oils are Amsoil and Redline, (who both SAY they meet the standards, but indeed are NOT certified for to specifications for most of their oils) ELF. There are more, but some of the names escape me. You will find all three (and most others also) are at premium to Mobil One.
I am also told that Mobil One 0w40 shows great UOA numbers in place of 0w20,5w20 oils. But for your application, you would lose the fuel efficiency advantage, as you would with the 0w30,5w30. 0w30,0w40 are a bit of a hybrid in that they are generally used in European applications. So in that sense, I would not recommend them unless you are willing to cross check specifications and also take a chance on engine warranty issues, which is VERY, VERY, VERY, remote(same would be true of 0w30,5w30).
Indeed if your manual specifies the above oils, you have NO warranty concerns, not even with 0w30. Smaller issues such as 0w30 premiums and slightly higher fuel efficiencies now come to the fore.
How are we doing so far?
https://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Rewards/Mobil_1_Rewards.aspx
LSAC GF-4
API SM/CF
ACEA A1/B1
Ford WSS-M2C930-A
Chrysler MS-6395
And the 0W-30 meets
GM 6094M, GM 4718M (Corvette spec)
Ford WSS-M2C929-A
ILSAC GF-4
API SM/CF
ACEA A1/B1
But I am still worried the 0W-30 is NOT on the recommended weights of oil from the manufacture. So why am I even thinking about it????? lol
(this may or may not be readily apparent!?Include the 0w20, and 0w30 if you have not already.)
What you seem to be missing is the fact that a Group IV oil in the 0W-30 grade is a superset of that same oil in either 5W-30 or 10W-30. The two critical items here are to have the first number (i.e. 0W, 5W or 10W) to be as low or lower than the recommendation, meanwhile you want to have the second number pretty much bang on (or maybe a bit higher) than the recommendation. Said another way, if your manufacturer recommends 10W-30, then you can also safely choose 5W-30 or 0W-30, if they recommend 5W-30 then you can choose that or a 0W-30. Make sense?
The benefit to the lower first number is that the oil will start flowing and be protecting internal engine components faster following a cold start than either a 5W-30 or a 10W-30. The colder the engine gets, the greater the advantage is for 0W-30.
Another thing to keep in mind is that for many older cars (our 1998 for instance), 0W-anything oils were all but non-existent when they were built and as such, manufacturers didn't start specifying then until fairly recently (with the excpetion of a number of European marques who were early adopters of 0W oils).
Best Regards,
Shipo
Also, thanks again for all the help.
So another source if you want to get a tad more on the arcane side is www.bobistheoilguy.com.
However I do agree with Shipo, if you can use the 0w, you do get both a faster and better flow. If 0w30 were NOT at premium to 5w30, I would go to that viscosity in a heartbeat. My other issue (small) is less line item stockage, as well as less units on inventory. In my case to illustrate the point, would I rather stock one viscosity (0w20), and the next oil change (up to 7 qts); or would I rather stock 5w40, (5 qts), 5w30 (8 qts), 5w20 (4 qts), for a total of 17 qts. ?
before the intrigue was traded for the torrent, it was in the shop to have the intake replaced. out intrigue had the 3800 engine and was prone to the manifold(composit material) warpping at the egr valve and letting coolant into the engine. when the tech had the engine apart he commented on how perfectly clean the inside of the engine was.
i have a question for those here. what brand of oil filter do you use and recommend? i have used the mobil1 filters, but was wondering if there are better ones out there.
thanks
richard
Short answer, using an example, OEM. Since almost all oil filters are vendored by someone else, OEM filters are made to OEM specifications. The Honda OEM Civic's oil filter is vendored by FRAM. (old Allied Systems) now owned by Honeywell. (flameproof suit on, SCBA at the ready)
The Honda Civic OEM recommendation for engine oil filter change is "EVERY OTHER" So since the recommended oil change is at 10,000 miles, 5w20 (CONVENTIONAL oil) fill, every other is 20,000 miles engine (oil) FILTER change. (flameproof suit on, SCBA ON)
Literally for my .02 cents, oem (FRAM in this case) AND the familar FRAM ORANGE model numbers are at premium to very well made, (CHAMPION LABS) WallyMart SuperTech filters at last purchase, $2.12 per oil filter. (flameproof suit on, SCBA ON-fire fight is ON)
I change the Mobil One 0w20 AND filter @ 20,000 miles OCI's, because I am a conservative, belt and suspenders kind of guy!
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The issues became starkly clear to me in that I use a so called OEM/vendor ed cartridge oil filter in a VW Jetta TDI. It is MADE to go a 30,000 mile OCI. (Made to support the VW 507.00 specification, the so called LL or long life oil (up to 30,000 miles) Short story shorter, I wish ALL my cars had 1. top access 2. cartridge type oil filters.
As you can surmise, that is a a 1/3 over the OEM/vendor ed by FRAM- Honda Civic. MORE cents/dollars in a cartridge filter (CAN) be used to upgrade the filtration and/or charge less or both!
Yes indeed it does make logical sense, higher cost higher quality, but....Now the weird question : is it statistically correlated!!??? The answer is NO or at best unclear. So that I am being clear: if my car will last to say 250,000 miles with the "el crappo tsk, tsk" filter: with 4x better the cost (of the spin on/off oil filter) will my engine last 1 M miles? Do you see the disconnect here?
Following the logic to another bottom line here: almost NO folks (% wise) use bypass oil filtration!!?? Aftermarket is so called costly, but given the above logic (250,000 miles to 1,000,000 miles) CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP??!! (200-300). In addition the oems can get the cost down exponentially LOWER if the oems put it in. (pure volume comes to mind here)
Here you can in effect use a very "fine screen" filter. Indeed some Amsoil (EA models) bypass oil filters, literally microscopically scrub the oil to a cleaner conditions than when it comes factory sealed from the BOTTLE!!! Again Oxymoronically installation of this "benefit" can actually VOID or make tougher engine warranty fulfillment in the absolutely remote chance you do have engine issues.
So statistics are really on your side when you follow what the OEM's recommend. When you want to do either slightly to radically different things, a little research and sites like www.bobistheoilguy.com come in handy and are indeed considered required.
Again you will probably want to comply with oem recommendations during the relatively short warranty periods. After that, you self warranty anyway.
thanks
As you can probably see and surmise, there are a lot more things going on than just changing your oil and filter at 3,000 miles.
Isn't this the old "more is always better" argument?
Please explain the old "more is always better" argument?
Contaminants levels in the used oil are lower than most other reported results (by other vehicle owners) with a third of the miles driven.
After OCI's of 12 to 15K miles my results are consistently better than other reports with 5K miles or less.
This does not mean that the oil is fit for longer intervals simply because the TBN is low enough to warrant a change.
What I am trying to say is that based on that personal experience I venture to guess that the engines in my cars will last a lot longer than average.
Will I reap the benefit of a longer engine life in my cars? Probably not because I sell them usually around the 300K mile mark.
A trucking company or a taxi cab company may be able to tell whether a difference in engine wear is measurable for higher mileages. They would know if there is a payback or not for the investment.