Synthetic motor oil

ruking1

Using PULGO's example, one can adjust none to ALL of the variables!! This of course is where one starts to wonder what changes are changing and what changes are or have been kept the same. What practical differences are there?

Another example is the change from LSD (up to 500 ppm) to ULSD (15 ppm on down) The TBN, (12 in the case of Delvac One 5w40 aka Mobil One Truck & SUV 5w40), not 6 mo ago was a VERY important measure: while still important, another important metric was, still is the SOOT LOADING 1.5-3% upper level); to the TBN. So if you got soot loading (for any number of reasons) it was important to have a good (reserve) TBN to neutralize acid production due to soot loading. Since soot loading is/was caused primary by higher sulfur PPM, what does one think happens to the soot loading metric when soot is now structurally 97% LESS?? !!! Again a reason why TBN (using ULSD) lasts/stays higher so much longer!

So for example a high quality oil (Delvac One 5w40, aka Mobil One Truck and SUV 5w40) was almost total overkill for a 10,000 mile OCI, was a lock for a 20,000 mile OCI with LSD. Now with 97% less sulfur ppm, a 25,000 mile OCI is a belt and suspenders kind of interval!! This is without bypass oil filtration!! If one adds bypass oil filtration:? CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN, longer longer longer.

Can I go to 500,000 to 1,000,000 miles? Those are my goals, and time will tell. Can it go to 500,000 miles to 1,000,000 miles with bypass oil filters? That would also be the goal and time will tell, also. What I do know for sure: if I keep the OCI's the same (25,000 miles), the oil with the bypass oil filtration will indeed be cleaner. Do I think it makes a difference? Absolutely!! Do I think it is statistically significant? Probably. Has it been positively correlated?.... NO! Does either scenario make longer term economic sense? I hope so. I know logically, but truly, I do not really know practially. All we can reasonably expect to do is given the goal, stack the odds in ones' favor!?

Mr_Shiftright

Well I was simply asking whether engine life is in any way related to finer and finer oil filtration. Or to use a clumsy comparison, would you live longer if every breath of air you breathed was surgically purified?

robert1955

Well, after all my questions about 0W-30, 5W-20, and 5W-30 oil I stopped at a wallymart on my way home and the only 0W-XX oil they had in Mobil 1 was 1qt bottles of 0W-20. I will look at a real auto parts store tonight or tomorrow and see if I can find 0W-30, otherwise it will be a 5W-20/30 for me. I am leaning to the 30 weight for the additional viscosity at operating temps thinking the additional properties of the Synthetic will minimize the fuel mileage loss by jumping to a 30 vs the 20 currently in the car. Your thoughts?

ruking1

My guess is 0w20 in quart bottles is at a higher premium!? Given your oem specifications, I'd be inclined to do 0w20, 5w20, 0w30 then 5w30. But because you have such a wide range, no sense paying more than you have to.

robert1955

The 5qt jugs run $25.97 and $6.23 a qt for the Extended performance and $21.97 and $5.67 for the regular Mobil 1. The 0W-20 was only in qt's at the Extended price. So its only about a $5 premium buying 6 1 qt bottles vs 1 5qt jug and 1 (1)qt bottle. So what would your first, second, and third choice's be in oil weight to use? based off the normal weight of 5W-20 from Hyundai

shipo

The question that I have about your UOAs is, "Do your UOAs report lower metals because your engine is wearing at a slower rate or because the filter is simply filtering stuff out at a higher rate?" My guess is the latter as filters that conform to OEM requirements already filter down to the level where the particulate matter is so small that it won't do any harm to the engine.

Best Regards,
Shipo

ruking1

Well for me the order would not change. I would just do it in order of your availability of first, 5 qt container then 1 qt container. I just bought a 5 qt container (5w20) in OR for 21? and since OR has no sales tax.... The EP can be a whole new shade of research. From what I have seen, EP has it own premium to the regular Mobil One. Again to me, not really worth it even if it does meet the oem specifications.

richardson

Shipo;
How will you use a Pella if the trend to omit the dipstick really
takes hold? Are you still moving to Hong Kong?

shipo

"How will you use a Pella if the trend to omit the dipstick really takes hold?"

Ummm, I won't.

"Are you still moving to Hong Kong?"

Nope, it looks like the move is off as my Mrs. Shipo's company is being sold. (again). We did manage to get a trip over there for the whole family that was paid for by the company, and it was quite an eye opener for the kids. Last May when we first broke the news to the kids that we were moving to HK, my 13 year old son (who is already quite the ladies man) said to me, "Ahhh Dad, why do we have to move? You know I don't dig Asian chicks."

Fast forward to late August when we were exploring the island as well as Kowloon, I repeatedly caught him walking into things with a wide eyed look on his face while gazing at the local young ladies. Finally he admitted, "Dad, uhhh, I think some of these asian girls are pretty hot." :shades:

Best Regards,
Shipo

smokey75

Since most agree that both of these are Group IV oils which one would you use if all things were equal such as price, availability, etc. Speaking of availability, I found the Castrol 0w30 at Autozone but have looked at Autozone, O'Reiley's Auto, Pep Boys, Walmart, Target, Meijer, Sam's, & Costco for Mobil 1 0w30 & can't seem to find it. Anyone have any suggestions?

smokey75

I think I know the answer to this but before I do it I just wanted to make sure there's nothing I'm missing. I'm cleaning out my oil cabinet & have some Mobil 1 5w30, Mobil 1 10w30, & Amsoil 5w30 synthetic. Would I have any problem using all of these on my next oil change?

ruking1

NO! Unless there is something you are not mentioning.

smokey75

Thought so... thanks.

smokey75

Since most agree that both of these are Group IV oils which one would you use if all things were equal such as price, availability, etc. Speaking of availability, I found the Castrol 0w30 at Autozone but have looked at Autozone, O'Reiley's Auto, Pep Boys, Walmart, Target, Meijer, Sam's, & Costco for Mobil 1 0w30 & can't seem to find it. Anyone have any suggestions?

No takers on this question?

ruking1

Actually the taker train already left the station on this issue. If you start in and around msg 7603, Robert 1955 asked a very similar question. Shipo and Ruking talked about the subject. Any questions about those posts or if any new ones that come up from that reading, just fire away.

smokey75

Actually the taker train already left the station on this issue. If you start in and around msg 7603, Robert 1955 asked a very similar question. Shipo and Ruking talked about the subject. Any questions about those posts or if any new ones that come up from that reading, just fire away.

So these 2 oils are pretty much seen as equals? Nobody thinks one is even a little better than the other? lol And anyone had any luck finding Mobil 1 0W30?

ruking1

Oh GOSH!! YES and NO!! ( *4)

The real keys are there statistical correlations!!?? Practically speaking, are the premiums worth the performance?

So for example, if @ PAR, I would convert all 5w30 applications to 0w30 in a heartbeat. Given premium, does the (so called ) performance advantage pencil out?

ruking1

Another example.

45,000 miles ago, I decided to go from the oem filled 5w20 conventional oil to 0w20 Mobil One. So I bought a supply of 1 qt bottles at discount. I have been getting between 38-42 mpg. Now I did notice (beginning with the first tankful) an IMMEDIATE jump in the RANGE of mpg (1-3 mpg) Now because of the decision to switch, I have not done an A/B test (but have noticed a distinct difference) let alone an A/B and BACK to A test.

I just recently bought some 5 qt containers of 5w20 Mobil One @ 23 bux and change. My perception is no premium or @ par to the 0w20. So it will be a no brainer to do the next oil change interval (20,000 miles) to see if there is a performance difference due to the viscosity difference of 0w20 vs 5w20. I swag little to no difference.But if there will be, I would anticipate 1-2 mpg difference.

So it is up to YOU (me, in my case) to decide whether the viscosity is worth either the premium or the discount.

smokey75

So it is up to YOU (me, in my case) to decide whether the viscosity is worth either the premium or the discount.
Actually I was just interested if anyone had a preferance between the 2 oils.

ruking1

Instead of which hydro cracked product is REALLY synthetic or NOT!?

Interesting article

..."LongLife Service regimes
The LongLife Service regime is so called because there are no set service intervals and, depending on how you drive your vehicle, and the conditions of use, a service will be required anywhere between 9,000 miles or 12 months (whichever occurs first), up to a maximum of 20,000* miles or 24 months (whichever occurs first)."...

http://www.vw.co.uk/assets/Longlife_servicing.pdf

oilanalystinc

johnroberts45,

With a little more information I can provide you with oil and oil filter recommendations for your Honda. AMSOIL continually outperforms not only petroleum based products but all major synthetic competitors as well. Overall AMSOIL is the best lubrication not only for automotive purposes but in industrial, farm, compressors, and much much more!

oilanalystinc

Most people are ignorant too real facts when it comes to synthetics due to bad information, no information, or the inability to understand information.

sandman46

Why is it that Mobil1 is a more well known synthetic oil then that Amsoil product? An d why do most of the major auto manufacturer's use Mobil1 or recommend it?
Shipo and Ruking maybe y'all can help me here.

The Sandman

shipo

"AMSOIL continually outperforms not only petroleum based products but all major synthetic competitors as well."

Oh geez, here we go again, another Amsoil zealot who's had too much Kool-Aid to drink.

Dude, the only entity that says that Amsoil outperforms all of its competition is Amsoil and those who hawk their products. Please, before you start with the usual Amsoil rhetoric, bilge we've heard here on this board time and time again, go over to the BITOG web site and get yourself schooled by browsing through the UOA databases. In there you will see a huge body of evidence that shows that in the real world, Amsoil performs no better than any of the full Synthetic (i.e. Group IV, PAO based) oils currently on the market, and in many cases worse.

FWIW, even though Amsoil seems to be a fairly decent product (although very much overprices compared to the competition), due to the deceptive marketing tactics and blatant falsehoods that they use to sway the uninformed, I will not use their products and I will not recommend them to anybody else. The simple truth is that many of us abhor the noise that comes out of the Amsoil camp, and more than anything else, I believe that is what holds them back from becoming a truly successful company.

Best Regards,
Shipo

ruking1

If you put in the search word Amsoil in the (search this discussion-upper right corner) block it will give you upwards of 7300 references which will probably give you information overload. So I can answer (from my point of view ) the ones that stand out to you.

I have been hearing some real good things about their EA bypass oil filter product, but bypass oil filter products usually appeal to a very very very limited market/audience. Also this product is VERY pricey (if there is such a word)

WalMart's (current) $23 for a Mobil One 5w20 (can be used in your Civic if I remember correctly) 5qt jug/4.60 per qt is a metric I would consider if you are even remotely considering a like Amsoil product. I bought my last two containers in tax free OR. 2 containers should easily last me 20,000 miles x 2 for 40,000 miles. :shades: Might need a timing belt and water pump change at that point.

wjose

My wife owns a 2003 Volkswagon Jetta and it is time for an oil change and fluid check. The car has about 30,000 miles on it and haynes or chilton has not come out with a repair- service manual for it. The car is much different from my own vehicles which I have serviced for years. Other than Volkswagon, where could I get some information and illustrations that would make my job tolerable since I have heard that Volkswagons are a different ballgame than American vehicles. I would greatly appreciate some reference points.

Bill

ruking1

You might look/google for a new/used Bentley's CD and/or soft cover shop manual. If you really want to get into it, you can get an again new/used VAG.com, which is the software and hard cabling for laptop hookup.

As a fast answer, I would use Mobil One 0w40 and oem, Mann or Mahle oil filters.

https://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Mobil_1_0W-40.aspx

You might also review the technical data updates for the latest recommendations for oil specifications. Rest assured however the Mobil One0w40 meets and exceeds the ..."VW 502.00/505.00/503.01"...specifications in force at the time. The latest specifications are the VW 507.... which (selectively) are backwards compatible.

blufz1

Just shop on the phone and the net for special price and/or a coupon and get a deal from your dealer. My Honda dealer charges me $10 + I provide the mobil 1 oil and filter........'course you ain't got no Honda,there.

robert1955

Ok, time to pop back in here :-) I have made the switch to a 0W-20 Group IV product for my 5W-20 spec 07 Sonata. Its only been about 600 miles and 2 tanks of gas but I have noticed between a .5 and 1 mpg gain but its too early to credit the oil for a gain yet. After about 5,000 miles I will have a good dataset to say if the switch from a dino 5W-20 to a Group IV 0W-20 will pay off for me with better economy along with the longer OCI to truely cover the cost increase.
As for the Amsoil zelots the true gains in using the product is the longer OCI the oil is built to support, if you stay with under 5,000 or even 7,500 mile OCI's then the extra cost does not justify its use. If you can run the 25,000 miles for the ASL or even the 35,000 miles of the SSO oils then yes I would say Amsoil "outperforms" the other oils

highmiler650

Here is someone who did an OCI with over 30k miles. He did use 0w-30 though.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1035939#- Post1035939

ruking1

I essentially did the side by side documentation and by default, comparison over 2 intervals of 10,000 miles each. It was on a Honda Civic, 5w20 conventional OEM fill vs a change to 0w20 Mobil One. The greater mpg was noticed (documented) IMMEDIATELY on the very next FULL tank full (on synthetic) and continued to the so called last tank full at close to 20,000 miles. So I have an average mpg over "old oil vs new oil" (virtually no difference in avg mpg)

It is pushing 60,000 miles at the so called elevated mpg. It was my intention to run the full OEM recommended OCI interval (10,000 miles) as per Honda recommendation, AND to switch and STAY with Mobil One 0w20 to 5w20 (group IV). So in that sense, it was NOT/never an A/B experiment. However, there is NO doubt in my mind that I would LOSE (avg over another 10,000 miles OCI) mpg, upon switch back to a conventional 5w20. Additionally passed the meager warranty period I run 20,000 miles OCI's. Again for the additional 10,000 miles, same/same (watching paint dry here comes to mind) mpg. i.e., no change.

shipo

Interesting UOA link. That said, I'm thinking that the claims made by the OP are a bit suspect. Why? Because he initially claims that he never added any make-up during the entire 30,000+ mile run, and all requests to confirm that statement went unanswered. The fact is that he had six UOAs done during the that period of time, and I'm thinking that at the barest of minimums he used 24 ounces of oil just for the samplings taken, which means that that either the Explorer motor didn't consume even 8 ounces of oil over 30,000 miles or he ran his engine below the "Min" hash mark on the dip stick. Sorry, not buying, my bet is that there was make-up oil added that wasn't reported.

Best Regards,
Shipo

ruking1

Actually several point came to mind reading your post. The most important distinction is ANYONE can double their OCI by doubling their sump!!

Baring the doubling is understanding the modifying variables.

So almost a sub variable but might be considered a main variable:

1. a percentage increase due to the greater "sump" with the addition of a bypass oil SYSTEM

2. use of a bypass oil filter.

3. Refreshment is NORMAL but "refreshment" for any condition indeed alters dilution rates, etc. Again, not a BAD thing.

So indeed at BEST the documentation is sloppy. With no response to inquires, I would concur with your assessment.

highmiler650

He claims that he has a FUMOTO valve, which allows for easy oil sampling.

ruking1

Right! I can use a "thru the dipstick" evaculator as another method to draw samples, as well as drain the oil. But quite off topic to both our responses is I wish EVERY car had a fumoto value or through the dipstick evacuator!!!!

shipo

"He claims that he has a FUMOTO valve, which allows for easy oil sampling."

So? I use a Pela 650 dipstick oil extractor. Who cares? The fact is that to do six UOAs, six oil samples HAD to be removed from the engine and sent off for destructive analysis. I use oil analysis too and trust me; they don't send your oil back to you when they're done with it. So, either he's lying about having the UOAs done in the first place, or he ran his engine low (doesn't sound probable given the rest of his post), or (most likely) he added oil throughout the 30,000+ miles of the test and then lied about how much he added.

Best Regards,
Shipo

chetj

i saw some good M1 uoas on 15 k ocis on bitog...i guess it actually can go 15k on same oil...dont know if i'd i would be that brave....anyways i see where motorcraft synblend is only ten bucks at walmart for 5 qts and it gets pretty good analyses at bitog...any comments on the MC?...it seems like a great deal...what do people think of 5-20 oil?...i am using that in my focus...honda reccomends it too

ruking1

"....anyways i see where motorcraft synblend is only ten bucks at walmart for 5 qts and it gets pretty good analyses at bitog...any comments on the MC?...it seems like a great deal...what do people think of 5-20 oil?...i am using that in my focus...honda reccomends it too "...

To me, a bit off topic, as the word "synblend" connotes hydrocracked from the less than group IV anyway. I also realize that to some, this might be seen as a personal bias. However, for the record I ran (conventional-"NON synblend ") oem fill, so called "break in oil" for the first 10,000 miles OCI as per OEM Honda recommendation. Indeed if you MUST have a "synblend" you can truly make your own and know EXACTLY the ratio.

In addition, unless you dig much deeper, what is the ratio of hydrocracked, so called "syn" vs normal? It is certainly NOT PLASTERED all over the container!? How is that statistically significant over say MotorCraft 5w20 anyway? So the "NON" hydrocracked conventional oil will do the trick, ESPECIALLY if you do less than 10,000 miles OCI's anyway.

Indeed you might scan the UOA's at BITOG AND the MotorCraft web site to compare and contrast the synblend against the NORMAL MotorCraft 5w20 oil to see if the benefits are worth the premium (why spend 2 per qt when one $ /sub one $ will do? In addition, if you are not going to keep the vehicle beyond 50,000 to 100,000 miles; why are you doing less than 10,000 mile OCI's to begin with?). The normal MotorCraft is good to go to 10,000 mile OCI's for those Ford and Honda specifications (Ford specification being much more stringent than Honda)

In closing if I decided to continue to use conventional oil (5w20 that meets the Ford and Honda specifications of course), I would buy on price. (MotorCraft, ExxonMobil Superflo, etc) ALL (5w20) are robust by virtue of the specification. Are there individual differences? Absolutely!!

dchen2003

It's about the time for me to change the oil for my 03 camry. I was wondering, where is the best place to chang oil( Walmart, dealership, express lub, or Jiffy lub). I heard somebody said Walmart hire some high school kids to do the oil chage for you. The Toyota dealership charge me more than $30 only using non-synthetic oil. I am planing to buy Mobil 1 at Walmart and get oil change from a good shop. I really appreciate any opinions and suggestions.

Thank you very much for any information!

roadburner

Find either a GOOD independent shop or a GOOD Toyota dealer who offers frequent specials on minor maintenance. I have seen and heard of far too many damaged or destroyed engines caused by the barely sentient "technicians" at the various Kwicky Boob joints. I would rather pay a few dollars more and have the job performed properly. It beats the heck out of arguing with Kwicky Boob's liability carrier when your motor gets toasted because Service Trainee N. Bred Goober screwed up something on your Camry.

blufz1

Shop on the net for specials and get your dealer to match the deal. My Honda dealer does it for $10. I provide the M1 oil and filter.

dchen2003

Thank you guys so much for replying my message at Christmas Eve.
If I use Mobil 1 motor oil is it necessary to use Mobil 1 filter also? My dealership use $5 oil filter, but Mobil 1 filter cost around $10. Does an oil filter really make a big difference, which like switch from conventional oil to synthetic oil?

shipo

I've used the Mobil 1 oil filter upon occasion and have had UOAs done both with and without that filter, and don't really see much of a difference in the results. Unless you're planning on extending you oil changes to well beyond 10,000 miles, I'm thinking that the Mobil 1 oil filter is a waste of money.

Best Regards,
Shipo

blufz1

If it is an oem filter, it's probably o.k.

ruking1

WOW! I never made that connection! Thanks for the tip!

ruking1

I would also agree! I actually do go with the WalMart "SuperTech" oil filter brand, when I can @ $2.12-$2.64 per. (made by Champion Labs)

Just as an aside, I would go with the premium filter ONLY in the very rare case of the bypass oil filter which actually is manufactured to filter out MUCH smaller sized microns. The trade off is much lower flow, but off CRITICAL line/FLOW, obviously. Another is of course the much higher premium due to higher quality filtering materials, manufacturing costs and MUCH lower production and sales volume.

blufz1

I think the Mobil 1 filter holds a few more ounces of oil than the oem Honda filter.

dchen2003

During the holidays I read through all the posts back to 2006 October. I couldn't make the decision whether to keep using the conventional oil or switch to Mobil 1. Some messages said switching to synthetic oil "may" cause oil leak on high milage engines. Do you consider my 03 Camry with 33000 mi a high milage car? Are there any potential dangers may happen to my car if I switch to Mobil 1?

I really need you guys' suggestions to make the decision in order to have a peace of mind.

ruking1

33,000 miles is a relative "BABE"

I have a friend that has a Toyota Camry with 458,000 miles!! (mostly freeway in a daily long (obviously) commute.

First the good news. On late model engines NO causing of oil leakage due to switching from conventional to synthetic oil.

Caveats:

1. need to make sure there are no existing leaks that are obscured by the conventional oil. If there are, then get the source/s of the leak/s fixed. (you should anyway regardless of the conventional vs synthetic change issue) Synthetic oil is less inclined to so called "plug" minor leaks like conventional oil might.

2. while Toyota denies this, make sure there is no engine sludge formed already in the 33,000 miles of operation using conventional oil. The dealer or yourself can perform the inspection. If you have a good relationship with your dealer, they might even do the inspection free of charge.

Use the lowest viscosity recommended by your oem owners manual or technical data. So for example if it recommends 5w30 to 10w30, use the 5w30.

0w30 viscosity also will do (given it meets the other specifications) .

I would run a MINIMUIM of the oem recommended OCI like for example 7,500 miles. Most dealers in this above example would recommend 3,000 to 5,000 mile OCI's.

For example, I personally have no issues running (on a 2004 Honda Civic with a 10,000 mile oem recommendation with 5w20 conventional oil) 20,000 miles with Mobil One 0w20, 5w20 oil.

dchen2003

Thank you very much for the fast response. But I have a few questions.

1. How do I check the leaks that are plug by the conventional oil? The only thing I do is to check the oil level. The level doesn't change at all since last time I changed the oil 3000 mi ago.

2. I check my engine just by opening the the oil cap and peeking into it. Is it enough? You mentioned to check if there is sludge inside th engine, how does this relate to switching to synthetic oil? (if there is sludge I can switch or if there is no sludge I can switch)

3. The OCI I do with conventional oil is 3000 mi, because most of my driving is cold start in the morning and drive less than 2 mi, cold start again in the afternoon and drive from campus back to my apartment. If I switch to Mobil 1 what OCI do you suggest under the same condition?