say you drive 10k-12k miles a year like myself, would you change the synthetic oil once a year? I've been using valvoline maxlife and I change at 3k at 4-5 months at times. even though I have read it's just as good as Amsoil.
There are many posts above concerning Syntec. It is not a true Synthetic. It is a "severely hydroprocessed" mineral oil. The courts gave them permission to cal it Synthetic. I personally, and many others on this board recognize it for what it is: A way to circumvent the laws of honesty (In my opinion). The downside of 5W-50 oil is that the high viscosity is not really needed except for very high performance conditions. And then the extra polimers needed to allow a very wide span from a 5 Wt to a 50 weight can "shear down". 10W30 is a good choice in Synthetics. Almost not polimer is needed (if any). Bottom line-50 wyt. not needed (IMHO).
cutehumor You can read just about anything if you look hard enough. In general you should be able to go 10-12K with either Mobil 1 or Amsoil with a quality oil filter in between. Oil analysis would be worth doing if you go over say 10K in my opinion.
Is Maxlife really a synthetic blend? If so, they certainly do not mention it anywhere on their web-site. On the MSDS sheet for this product they are listing its volatility rate at <15. Now it is unclear as to whether this oil was even tested for NOACK volatility or if this was just an arbritary number that they punched in, as they are listing all the MaxLife oils as having the same rate. (?) Their DuraBlend (synthetic blend) is has a volatility rate of 10.32 for 10W30 and 8.46 for 20W50.
VALVOLINE MaxLife™ Motor Oil Valvoline MaxLife™ is the first motor oil specially formulated for higher mileage engines. Valvoline MaxLife™ is a blend of premium basestocks with a seal conditioning agent, extra cleaning agents, additional antiwear additives and friction modifiers.
Thanks for responding to some of my previous posts.
You said "Let's only discuss "full syn" - no hydroprocessed Castrols" and "Not all syns are equal." I totally agree, and this is one of the main points that I have been trying to get bottgers to acknowledge for days.
You said "After 3,000 miles, is synthetic preventing bad things from happening that conventional oil would not? I think that even ardent syn supporters would say that there is very little difference..." Thanks for responding to that one. I was glad to hear a knowledeable person such as you confirm what I suspected.
My synthetic change interval has been 5,000-6,000 miles with Mobil 1 Tri-Synthetic (the SJ one). Since I'm unwilling to leave oil in for much longer than that and not willing to hassle with/spend money on oil analysis, I will be saving significant money by changing with dino every 3-4k miles, especially since one of my vehicles uses a quart every 2,000 miles or so. And by keeping a good SL oil in there and changing at that frequency, I'm quite comfortable that my vehicles are being treated well and not really missing out on anything by not running synthetic.
Surely, there is much technical information that shows the superior properties of truly synthetic motor oil vs. petrol-based oil. I won't get into my skepticism about how that translates into real-world benefit for the average consumer's vehicle, because that's not the purpose of this post.
The purpose is to ask whether you are reading technical info about every single oil in the U.S. market labeled as "Synthetic" or whether you are using information about a few, perhaps even several, synthetics, and extrapolating those results to the entire "synthetic" world. Obviously, I believe you are doing the latter, and this is what I have a problem with.
You don't want to take MY word for anything, so perhaps you can take adc100's words instead. He noted recently that Mobil's tests show not all synthetics are created equal. To me, this is an obvious and clear statement.
And adc100, like many others, doesn't even consider the heavily hydroprocessed "synthetics" such as Castrol Syntec to be true synthetics, because they aren't. But you obviously do, as you have made no attempt to define your version of 'synthetic' or explain which products fall into your synthetic category. Let's leave Castrol Syntec in there for a moment.
Are you saying there is no overlap in the overall performance or technical data between synthetic and non-synthetic oils? I.e., every synthetic has superior properties to every non-synthetic? This is a claim that I'd like to see you prove, because I don't think it can be done.
Especially when you consider that many of the "synthetics" are actually similar in composition to some of the new SL-rated petrol-based oils that contain hydrocracked base stocks, how can you continue to make the sorts of claims you are making?
Your statement in post #3654 was quite humorous. If that's indicative of your feelings on oil, then I will stop discussing these matters with you because there's no point.
Let me be more specific. Do you have technical data on Wal-Mart's full synthetic oil? Do you know what its primary composition is (PAO, hydroprocessed, ester-based, etc.)?
I'm unconvinced that PAO is necessarily better. Went to Castrol's web site trying to find their data to compare with Mobil 1 and could find no data sheets. I do find that a bit troubling.
"My synthetic change interval has been 5,000-6,000 miles with Mobil 1 Tri-Synthetic (the SJ one). Since I'm unwilling to leave oil in for much longer than that and not willing to hassle with/spend money on oil analysis, I will be saving significant money by changing with dino every 3-4k miles, especially since one of my vehicles uses a quart every 2,000 miles or so. And by keeping a good SL oil in there and changing at that frequency, I'm quite comfortable that my vehicles are being treated well and not really missing out on anything by not running synthetic"
Given your above posts I would agree that synthetic offers you probably no cost advantage. It would have been easier if you had said that was what you were looking for. Also if your vehicle consumes oil at app 2000 miles per quart you might have that looked at for potential engine problems. I have had engines over 150,000 miles that didnt even leak that much oil in 2000 miles.
Your basic unwillingness to leave oil in past 5-6k is the operative parameter and the market will cater to that whether you use synthetic or conventional.
I n your case I would shop a conventional oil SJ or an SL solely on price! Given nothing wrong with your engine, and while you would probably disagree, I would run the conventional oil a minium of 7500 miles.
Price is not my only consideration. I am willing to pay more for synthetic and have been doing so for a couple years now. But since I'm not convinced that using synthetic will have any significant and/or measurable benefits in my vehicles, I cannot justify the higher cost.
The type of benefit I'm talking about is something like "my engine is likely to last 30% longer" or "the chance I'll have valve problems is 50% less because I'm using synthetic." Even the oil companies aren't willing to make such strong claims, so my conclusion is that synthetic just isn't worth it.
In most cases, people WILL spend more per mile with synthetic. Synthetic costs approximately 3 times that, depending on what brands and which stores. E.g. $4.50 vs. $1.50, or $4.00 vs. $1.33.
If you use 5,000 (dino) vs. 10,000 (synth), or any other interval with 1:2 ratio, a synth approach costs more just considering the oil. When you consider that the filter will be changed at the same frequency regardless of dino/synth, that makes the difference less dramatic, but it's still there. Assuming synth is 3x more expensive, you'd need to triple the dino change interval before reaching breakeven.
My oil-burner is a 98 Isuzu Trooper. The Trooper 3.2L and 3.5L engines are well-known to consume lots of oil, and I've heard nothing that indicates this design characteristic contributes to diminished engine life.
Add the cost of your time, and synthetic will pay "with 1:2 ratio". I assume that you value your time more than $10 per hour (the approximate break-out number).
"The type of benefit I'm talking about is something like "my engine is likely to last 30% longer" or "the chance I'll have valve problems is 50% less because I'm using synthetic." Even the oil companies aren't willing to make such strong claims, so my conclusion is that synthetic just isn't worth it."
Perhaps that is an unrealistic expectation! While I respect the fact that you feel that synthetic is not worth it, the fact of the matter is that the synthetic is the superior lubricant. Can you and should you do without it! No, yes, absolutely! Again given your mindset and bang for the buck concern, I would buy the SJ or SL conventional oil on price!
I have been using the Mobil One 0,5,10W-30 on a Toyota Landcruiser. It consumes app 1/4-1/2 quart per 14,000 miles. So depending on my fasidious level I can let it go to 15,000 miles with no addition of oil or top it @ 14,000.
The 15k interval also represents a 5x multiplier level using 3k and 15k intervals. So in this case it makes economic sense. The normal level in this vehicles owners manual is the 7500 mile interval which the synthetic is known to be able to go 3x longer interval than conventional which means 22,500 miles. A 15,000 miles interval gives a 33% safety margin. I know I am too conservative! Bang for the buck is my concern also, not to mention saving time in doing 4 oil changes as opposed to 20. I think we have similar goals only different reasonings and methods of achieving them. One measure I use is the cost of lubrication per mile, in my case using One and 4 dollars a quart for 15,000 miles (product cost only) (7 quarts an oil change, 3k and 15k interval) the conventional is: .00233 cents per mile the synthetic is: .00187 YOUR choice!
"The Trooper 3.2L and 3.5L engines are well-known to consume lots of oil, and I've heard nothing that indicates this design characteristic contributes to diminished engine life"
Wouldn't tons of burnt oil soot contribute to premature death of the oxygen sensor(s)? It can't be good for the catalytic converter either.
I'm retired. I have time. I live in Florida so no worry about crawling under the car in the winter and getting a car-pie in the face (been there/done that) - certainly no worry about sub-zero starting. There's a hitch on my SUV and the owner's manual says towing puts me in the "severe" class. Must change oil every three months or 3K miles. Since I have one of those multi-year/100K mile drivetrain warranties, it looks like there is NO synth in my future.
It's an easy change: I just pop under the car and flip the Fumoto valve. The filter is right in front, no problem to change it, either. Don't even have to put 'er up on ramps/jacks. Buy five quarts of Wal-Mart-Tech (my manual says for my climate use: 10W-30 OR 10W-40 OR 10W-50 OR 20W-40 OR 20W-50) @ ninety-five cents/quart and an OEM filter for US$3.25 and change every 3 months. I figure that's about eight bucks. =;-) It would be cheaper for me to change oil/filter every 2500 miles than run synth for 7500 and buy one of those super ten dollar filters. Synthetic oil just ain't for me.
"I think we have similar goals only different reasonings and methods of achieving them." Yes, I agree. It seems that certain things you believe in (18 months or 15,000 miles is a safe change interval) and certain things I believe in (reluctant to go beyond 6,000 miles before changing) have led us in different directions.
Yes, if the dino/synth change interval multiplier is 1:5, you will save money using synth, even without putting the value of your time into the equation. But I picked 1:2 since you mentioned you'd be comfortable with a 7,500 mile dino change interval and you're comfortable with a 15,000 mile synth interval. At 1:2, the savings are on the dino side of the comparison.
My time IS valuable, but I waste so much of it doing worthless things (watching TV, posting on these boards, etc.) that spending 30-40 minutes on an oil change is a better use of my time than many other things I do. I suspect other people are in the same boat, though some may not want to admit it.
By the way, the consumption on our 98 Trooper hasn't changed much since I switched to synth 15,000 miles ago. I think it has decreased slightly, but I haven't been extremely accurate/diligent with my measurements (i.e. sometimes I add 1/4 qt but forget to write it down) so I can't really be sure.
I know some folks claim that switching to synth will increase consumption, some claim it will make no difference, and some even claim it will decrease it. My guess is it depends on so many other factors that a general rule really doesn't hold up too well.
I have never said that ALL syns are created equal, or perform equally as well. What I have said is that ALL syns, whether they're PAO or not, have outperformed the dinos. According to the lab tests I've read, and from personal experiences, they have. Now if you want to argue with the people who conducted the lab tests, or tell my friend that his cars that lasted longer by using syns was just a figment of his imgination, go right ahead. I'm telling you what I've read about, and what I've experinced. If you want proof, surf the net and read the lab reports. I'm sure there are hundreds of them. I'm just the messenger here. When you're saying I'm full of $hit, which is exactly what you're doing, you're really saying the lab technicians are full of $hit because their findings don't agree with what you believe. Now, can we move on? I hate all of this bickering!
this talk about synthetics. I am going to have to try one after all the leftover dino is used up. Just not going to extend the drain by more than 1k at most on my wife's Sport Trac w/ 20k miles. It's like all this talk about food is making me hungry!
As I have said the synthetic at 3x the rating of conventional oil is go to go to 22500 miles. So if you are ok with say 5k conventional then 15,000 is the synthetic # for comparison.
You can come over anytime to do the oil changes I don't have to do because of synthetic oil use.
I blinked and got behind, but back on post 3654, you asked me where was the "hype" in doing several reading things. I don't know what the point was, but I don't see "hype" there, either. Perhaps the hype was in what you were reading? And as a generality, I'll say that I believe the reputable ester based products are superior. I can't say that about synthesized products that mimic petroleum, although some of them may be acceptable substitutes-- but why bother? You can get the real thing for far less per quart. [:oÞ
I'm not convinced that synthetics are that much better anymore. Most of you are familiar with my oil analysis results on 5W-30 Mobil 1 in my 98 ext-cab Z-71 truck with 5,000 miles on the oil. While most of my wear metals were normal, the one thing that had me concerned was that my viscosity was outside the normal range. I feel that with only 5,000 miles on mostly highway miles, the viscosity should have still been normal. Mobil could not explain this when I talked to them about it.
My results with the same oil with 3,000 miles on it were much better but then we get to the cost versus value aspect. I personally don't feel that I am getting my money's worth using the synthetic After my supply of Mobil 1 is gone, I'm going to run conventional oil and see what my results are.
I'm kind of concerned when I read people running their synthetic oil over 5,000 miles and blindly believing that its giving them adequate protection. I was pretty shocked at some of the less than good results I had on some aspects of my first analysis. Thats when I began to question the quality of the synthetic I was using. Talking to Mobil's tech department didn't give me any more confidence. After looking at both of my oil analysis results, the technition suggested that I probably would be better suited running a conventional oil if I was going to have to change every 3,000 miles anyway.
Just compare technical data information for the new synthetics vs the older ones and you can see that alot of things are getting worse, not better. pour points are not as good as before, flash points are lower in some cases. viscosity indexes are not as high. This tells me that synthetics are getting worse, not better. For the price differences between conventional and synthetic, its just not worth it in my opinion.
The statement was made earlier about people reading the word "synthetic" on the bottle, and thinking this somehow meant that it was superior. This isn't why I think syns are superior, it's because of the lab results. I couldn't care less what it says on the bottle, as long as I can identify it.
"What I have said is that ALL syns, whether they're PAO or not, have outperformed the dinos." What can I say other than I totally disagree with this sort of blanket statement. These new SL oils are, from my somewhat uninformed opinion, similar in makeup to what fleetwood referred to as 'synthesized products that mimic petroleum.' So why pay more per quart, and why assume superiority, simply because it says "synthetic" on the bottle?
I guess I'm done trying to convince you of that one. I find it very hard to believe that you remain convinced of that sort of statement. I'm not arguing that synthetic oil isn't better. What I'm arguing, I've already explained about 6 times in the past 2 weeks and I really can't believe you still think that Castrol Syntec at $4 a quart, or any of the other fake synthetics, is actually superior to some of these hydrocracked SL oils that cost about a buck a quart.
I have asked questions that have gone unanswered. Do you consider my posts too knuckleheaded? Too antagonistic?
"Now if you want to...tell my friend that his cars that lasted longer by using syns was just a figment of his imgination." Did your friend have 2 identical cars and attempt to drive them with similar driving patterns, using dino in one and synth in the other? I find the anecdotal evidence to be unconvincing, whether one is trying to say that dino is great or synthetic is great. I've not heard anyone on this board submit a good, somewhat scientifically valid comparison test.
If my Ford Contour engine outlasts my Isuzu Trooper engine, I won't attribute it to the synthetic oil.
You're much better off using dino if you're going to change your oil every 5K or less. If you change syn that much, you're just throwing money down the garbage disposal. I'm curious to see what your results would be using dino. I'd bet they'll be even worse. I seriously doubt that syns are getting worse, but only lab tests could show for sure.
And like I've said about six times now, I'm not assuming syn is superior just because it says syn on the bottle, I've formulated this opinion based on the lab test results I've read. Maybe the example I used of my friend's results wasn't scientific, but it's pretty hard to argue with lab results, though I'm sure you'd try. From what I've read, even the syns you call "fake syns" outperformed any of the dinos.
You both are thinking quite precisely and are treating this topic as a matter of logic and fact, rather than emotion and prejudgement. I truly agree that the new SL oils sound so similar to the petroleum mimetic synthetics that they just might defy telling them apart in a double blind test. Now, if you want to get a feel for powerful synthetics with great barrier protection, try some Redline, or other polyol ester with Molybdenum and/or Zinc antifriction additives. The major problem there is the price per quart. It costs a lot to sit down at that table!
"From what I've read, even the syns you call 'fake syns' outperformed any of the dinos." This is more support than you've given your argument all week! I can live with this sort of statement. I wish you had said that much earlier.
I wonder how much technical data, analysis, or industry papers/tests have been published for these new SL oils. So far, I haven't heard much about them. My expectation is that the SL oils are gaining on the synthetics. I am far too lazy and not fanatical enough about oil to start reading technical papers. I'd prefer to hear the summaries and bottom-line findings from people here.
I don't think synthetics are getting worse. However, the gap does seem to be narrowing, for a different reason: petrol-based oil is getting better all the time. And the lines between synthetic and dino are really starting to blur. If you disagree with that, don't blame me-- I'm just passing on the sentiments of many of the more experienced folks here. I happen to agree, based on what I've read here.
Because dino is catching up and the lines are blurring, I see no reason to spend extra on some of these fake synthetics, and no reason to believe in their superiority.
I guess we can agree to disagree. I will say that I think my claims have some logic to them, and although I am not making general references to having read technical papers as proof, this does not invalidate what I'm suggesting.
wtd, that is interesting information. I'm pleased to hear someone with oil analysis to support the general claims I've been trying to make. Despite the anti-synth sentiment in my last few posts, I'm surprised at how poorly the Mobil 1 held up. I have been comfortable leaving Mobil 1 in my vehicles for 5-6,000 miles, but your experience reinforces my belief that switching back to petrol-based oil is the right decision for ME.
bottgers, your response to wtd indicates that you did not understand his post.
On both of my oil analysis reports from Blackstone labs, they recommend changing my oil at less than 5,000 miles using the Mobil 1.
So you see, who or what should I believe about how long this oil is good for? Does this suggest that Mobil 1 is not as good as it appears to be or what? I used to blindly believe that I could go 5,000 miles easy on Mobil 1 but according to the people at Blackstone labs, this is not true for my application.
I definatly don't want to keep spending $4+ for a synthetic when it may not be holding up any better than a conventional oil at a fourth of the cost.
I did an oil analysis on my S-10 w/Mobil 1 and the results were much better than yours. The lead was just barely above specs, but this was with a 6K interval. I'm pretty sure that the oil analysis company bases their numbers on a 3k change anyway. ALL OF THE OTHER SPECS WERE CONSIDERED "EXCELLENT". If I were you I would give the new SuperSyn a try before you give up. I have a feeling that Mobil needed to do something with their oils because the Tri-Syn was probably their worst formula ever. The SuperSyn, which I haven't tested, is probably better. Ask me why? I don't know. I can just tell you that is a feeling I have. Maybe I believe their marketing....I don't know.
I have said in quite a few of my last several posts, that my statements of all the syns being superior were based on the lab results I've read. I love reading other folks' testimony as you do, and though I take them into consideration, they aren't as accurate as lab tests are. There are just too many variables with individual testimonies.
wtd
I think your synthetic experiment was the exception, not the norm. I think if 10 people did the same thing you did, at least 8 of them would've turned out just fine. However, if this ends up being the norm for you, you'd definitely be better off going with dino and 3K changes. Why did this happen in your case? Who knows. Like I said, in the real world there are a lot of variables that can't be accounted for.
You know I do a 15k interval oil change or one year on a 2001 Corvette Z06. So if you want to talk about putting money where your mouth is, Chevrolet is doing just that! Chevrolet is not alone. In addition, other makes such as MB, Porsche, BMW, etc not only recommend synthetic, but guarantee the machinery based on "extended" oil change intervals. I can assure you that Chevrolet or MB for that matter is not anxious to buy me an up to 15,000 dollar engine for the difference of 3 dollars a quart for engine oil!!!
You have just proved that oil analysis can be a very useful tool.
The old Toyota Sludge site has similar problems. That their viscosity would also thin out a full grade by 5K.
Valvoline Synpower has an SL 5W-40 grade which might be more stable. I haven't seen a Mobil1 5W-40 yet. In order to reduce the viscosity within 5k you are experience some oil shearing on your engine and the heavier weight might be helpful.
MB takes the synthetic oil to an interesting marketing and maintenance and ultimately revenue generating level.
Under the terms of the "maintenance is included for a period of yrs" They will change your oil at the recommended level. ( app 15,000 mile mark) Under the USA's anti trust laws, if a products is mandated or required (use of MB brand synthetic oil,) they must provide the oil. They will ONLY change the oil at earlier intervals 1. If you pay for it 2. Buy their brand.
Yes, MB approves of a 15k change interval. Chances are your engine will not blow up if you change the synthetic oil every 15,000 miles. However, does that mean there is no benefit or additional safety margin gained by changing more frequently? In my opinion, definitely not.
It's interesting that MB and others cover scheduled maintenance such as oil changes, but they are only willing to offer the freebie on a long-interval schedule. This is as much a cost-saving measure as it is an indication of the safety of such a long interval, in my opinion.
I guess what I'm saying, and this has been debated here before, is that MB would likely be recommending a shorter change interval if they weren't picking up the tab.
The manufacturer's interests are not always aligned with the customer's interests. 15k intervals may be great for MB, but is that what's best for MY vehicle? Everyone should realize that just because the carmaker 'recommends' something, it's not necessarily in the owner's best interest to follow that recommendation. I think there are lots of people out there in the world who don't question anything the carmaker or, even worse, the dealer, tells them.
Like, for example, the recommendation of changing your oil and filter every 7,500 miles, even when using dino. This is one case where I won't even consider following their recommendations.
After following this forum for about a year I'm going back to dino. After I use the 4 unopened qts of Mobil 1 out in the garage. I have a 2001 Mazda Protege, 2.0L. They recommend 7500/6 months for normal, 5000/4 months severe. Once I'm back to dino I'll go with 5000/4 or 2000 miles longer than on my last car. I'd feel comfortable with the normal interval except for the thimble sized oem spec oil filter. I wonder if anyone makes a smaller filter. Also ran my car up on Rhino Ramps yesterday to check out the filter. Its as the mechanic at the dealer I bought it from said. If you can get the car on a lift its not too bad but crawling under to get at it would be a real pain. More trouble than I care to go to. Maybe I'm just lazy. )
You are correct-- there is nothing stopping someone from changing their oil every day. I think your point-- that one must determine how often is 'often enough' when changing oil-- has been made.
I hope that various manufacturers' recommendation is not your sole reason for going 15,000 miles on oil. I'd call that blind faith.
No it is conservative as I have posted and either you have ignored or overlooked, I should really go to 22500 miles. You know what I call blind faith? 3000 mile intervals !
Mobil One 0,5,10W-30. Trust me if conventional oil had the same high temperature tolerance and low ash % low evaporation and superior lubrication as synthetic and the ability to go 12-15k at 1 buck a quart, I would surely get the conventional vs the synthetic.
Comments
cutehumor You can read just about anything if you look hard enough. In general you should be able to go 10-12K with either Mobil 1 or Amsoil with a quality oil filter in between. Oil analysis would be worth doing if you go over say 10K in my opinion.
VALVOLINE MaxLife™ Motor Oil
Valvoline MaxLife™ is the first motor oil specially formulated for higher mileage engines. Valvoline MaxLife™ is
a blend of premium basestocks with a seal conditioning agent, extra cleaning agents, additional antiwear
additives and friction modifiers.
Test SAE 5W-30 SAE 10W-30 SAE 10W-40 SAE 20W-50
Total Base Number 8 8 8 8
Flash Point COC (°C) 221 230 242 245
Pour Point (°C) -39 -36 -36 -33
Noack % off @ 250°C <15.0 <15.0 <15.0 <15.0
Zinc/Phosphorus wt% 0.108/0.095 0.108/0.095 0.108/0.095 0.108/0.095
Calcium/Magnesium wt.% 0.260/Nil 0.260/Nil 0.260/Nil 0.260/Nil
You said "Let's only discuss "full syn" - no hydroprocessed Castrols" and "Not all syns are equal." I totally agree, and this is one of the main points that I have been trying to get bottgers to acknowledge for days.
You said "After 3,000 miles, is synthetic preventing bad things from happening that conventional oil would not? I think that even ardent syn supporters would say that there is very little difference..." Thanks for responding to that one. I was glad to hear a knowledeable person such as you confirm what I suspected.
My synthetic change interval has been 5,000-6,000 miles with Mobil 1 Tri-Synthetic (the SJ one). Since I'm unwilling to leave oil in for much longer than that and not willing to hassle with/spend money on oil analysis, I will be saving significant money by changing with dino every 3-4k miles, especially since one of my vehicles uses a quart every 2,000 miles or so. And by keeping a good SL oil in there and changing at that frequency, I'm quite comfortable that my vehicles are being treated well and not really missing out on anything by not running synthetic.
The purpose is to ask whether you are reading technical info about every single oil in the U.S. market labeled as "Synthetic" or whether you are using information about a few, perhaps even several, synthetics, and extrapolating those results to the entire "synthetic" world. Obviously, I believe you are doing the latter, and this is what I have a problem with.
You don't want to take MY word for anything, so perhaps you can take adc100's words instead. He noted recently that Mobil's tests show not all synthetics are created equal. To me, this is an obvious and clear statement.
And adc100, like many others, doesn't even consider the heavily hydroprocessed "synthetics" such as Castrol Syntec to be true synthetics, because they aren't. But you obviously do, as you have made no attempt to define your version of 'synthetic' or explain which products fall into your synthetic category. Let's leave Castrol Syntec in there for a moment.
Are you saying there is no overlap in the overall performance or technical data between synthetic and non-synthetic oils? I.e., every synthetic has superior properties to every non-synthetic? This is a claim that I'd like to see you prove, because I don't think it can be done.
Especially when you consider that many of the "synthetics" are actually similar in composition to some of the new SL-rated petrol-based oils that contain hydrocracked base stocks, how can you continue to make the sorts of claims you are making?
Your statement in post #3654 was quite humorous. If that's indicative of your feelings on oil, then I will stop discussing these matters with you because there's no point.
"My synthetic change interval has been 5,000-6,000 miles with Mobil 1 Tri-Synthetic (the SJ one). Since I'm unwilling to leave oil in for much longer than that and not willing to hassle with/spend money on oil analysis, I will be saving significant money by changing with dino every 3-4k miles, especially since one of my vehicles uses a quart every 2,000 miles or so. And by keeping a good SL oil in there and changing at that frequency, I'm quite comfortable that my vehicles are being treated well and not really missing out on anything by not running synthetic"
Given your above posts I would agree that synthetic offers you probably no cost advantage. It would have been easier if you had said that was what you were looking for. Also if your vehicle consumes oil at app 2000 miles per quart you might have that looked at for potential engine problems. I have had engines over 150,000 miles that didnt even leak that much oil in 2000 miles.
Your basic unwillingness to leave oil in past 5-6k is the operative parameter and the market will cater to that whether you use synthetic or conventional.
I n your case I would shop a conventional oil SJ or an SL solely on price! Given nothing wrong with your engine, and while you would probably disagree, I would run the conventional oil a minium of 7500 miles.
The type of benefit I'm talking about is something like "my engine is likely to last 30% longer" or "the chance I'll have valve problems is 50% less because I'm using synthetic." Even the oil companies aren't willing to make such strong claims, so my conclusion is that synthetic just isn't worth it.
In most cases, people WILL spend more per mile with synthetic. Synthetic costs approximately 3 times that, depending on what brands and which stores. E.g. $4.50 vs. $1.50, or $4.00 vs. $1.33.
If you use 5,000 (dino) vs. 10,000 (synth), or any other interval with 1:2 ratio, a synth approach costs more just considering the oil. When you consider that the filter will be changed at the same frequency regardless of dino/synth, that makes the difference less dramatic, but it's still there. Assuming synth is 3x more expensive, you'd need to triple the dino change interval before reaching breakeven.
My oil-burner is a 98 Isuzu Trooper. The Trooper 3.2L and 3.5L engines are well-known to consume lots of oil, and I've heard nothing that indicates this design characteristic contributes to diminished engine life.
Perhaps that is an unrealistic expectation! While I respect the fact that you feel that synthetic is not worth it, the fact of the matter is that the synthetic is the superior lubricant. Can you and should you do without it! No, yes, absolutely! Again given your mindset and bang for the buck concern, I would buy the SJ or SL conventional oil on price!
I have been using the Mobil One 0,5,10W-30 on a Toyota Landcruiser. It consumes app 1/4-1/2 quart per 14,000 miles. So depending on my fasidious level I can let it go to 15,000 miles with no addition of oil or top it @ 14,000.
The 15k interval also represents a 5x multiplier level using 3k and 15k intervals. So in this case it makes economic sense. The normal level in this vehicles owners manual is the 7500 mile interval which the synthetic is known to be able to go 3x longer interval than conventional which means 22,500 miles. A 15,000 miles interval gives a 33% safety margin. I know I am too conservative! Bang for the buck is my concern also, not to mention saving time in doing 4 oil changes as opposed to 20. I think we have similar goals only different reasonings and methods of achieving them. One measure I use is the cost of lubrication per mile, in my case using One and 4 dollars a quart for 15,000 miles (product cost only) (7 quarts an oil change, 3k and 15k interval) the conventional is: .00233 cents per mile the synthetic is: .00187 YOUR choice!
Wouldn't tons of burnt oil soot contribute to premature death of the oxygen sensor(s)? It can't be good for the catalytic converter either.
It's an easy change: I just pop under the car and flip the Fumoto valve. The filter is right in front, no problem to change it, either. Don't even have to put 'er up on ramps/jacks. Buy five quarts of Wal-Mart-Tech (my manual says for my climate use: 10W-30 OR 10W-40 OR 10W-50 OR 20W-40 OR 20W-50) @ ninety-five cents/quart and an OEM filter for US$3.25 and change every 3 months. I figure that's about eight bucks. =;-) It would be cheaper for me to change oil/filter every 2500 miles than run synth for 7500 and buy one of those super ten dollar filters. Synthetic oil just ain't for me.
But hey! Whatever floats your boat, eh?
Yes, if the dino/synth change interval multiplier is 1:5, you will save money using synth, even without putting the value of your time into the equation. But I picked 1:2 since you mentioned you'd be comfortable with a 7,500 mile dino change interval and you're comfortable with a 15,000 mile synth interval. At 1:2, the savings are on the dino side of the comparison.
My time IS valuable, but I waste so much of it doing worthless things (watching TV, posting on these boards, etc.) that spending 30-40 minutes on an oil change is a better use of my time than many other things I do. I suspect other people are in the same boat, though some may not want to admit it.
I know some folks claim that switching to synth will increase consumption, some claim it will make no difference, and some even claim it will decrease it. My guess is it depends on so many other factors that a general rule really doesn't hold up too well.
As I have said the synthetic at 3x the rating of conventional oil is go to go to 22500 miles. So if you are ok with say 5k conventional then 15,000 is the synthetic # for comparison.
You can come over anytime to do the oil changes I don't have to do because of synthetic oil use.
My results with the same oil with 3,000 miles on it were much better but then we get to the cost versus value aspect. I personally don't feel that I am getting my money's worth using the synthetic After my supply of Mobil 1 is gone, I'm going to run conventional oil and see what my results are.
I'm kind of concerned when I read people running their synthetic oil over 5,000 miles and blindly believing that its giving them adequate protection. I was pretty shocked at some of the less than good results I had on some aspects of my first analysis. Thats when I began to question the quality of the synthetic I was using. Talking to Mobil's tech department didn't give me any more confidence. After looking at both of my oil analysis results, the technition suggested that I probably would be better suited running a conventional oil if I was going to have to change every 3,000 miles anyway.
Just compare technical data information for the new synthetics vs the older ones and you can see that alot of things are getting worse, not better. pour points are not as good as before, flash points are lower in some cases. viscosity indexes are not as high. This tells me that synthetics are getting worse, not better. For the price differences between conventional and synthetic, its just not worth it in my opinion.
Wayne
I guess I'm done trying to convince you of that one. I find it very hard to believe that you remain convinced of that sort of statement. I'm not arguing that synthetic oil isn't better. What I'm arguing, I've already explained about 6 times in the past 2 weeks and I really can't believe you still think that Castrol Syntec at $4 a quart, or any of the other fake synthetics, is actually superior to some of these hydrocracked SL oils that cost about a buck a quart.
I have asked questions that have gone unanswered. Do you consider my posts too knuckleheaded? Too antagonistic?
"Now if you want to...tell my friend that his cars that lasted longer by using syns was just a figment of his imgination." Did your friend have 2 identical cars and attempt to drive them with similar driving patterns, using dino in one and synth in the other? I find the anecdotal evidence to be unconvincing, whether one is trying to say that dino is great or synthetic is great. I've not heard anyone on this board submit a good, somewhat scientifically valid comparison test.
If my Ford Contour engine outlasts my Isuzu Trooper engine, I won't attribute it to the synthetic oil.
I wonder how much technical data, analysis, or industry papers/tests have been published for these new SL oils. So far, I haven't heard much about them. My expectation is that the SL oils are gaining on the synthetics. I am far too lazy and not fanatical enough about oil to start reading technical papers. I'd prefer to hear the summaries and bottom-line findings from people here.
I don't think synthetics are getting worse. However, the gap does seem to be narrowing, for a different reason: petrol-based oil is getting better all the time. And the lines between synthetic and dino are really starting to blur. If you disagree with that, don't blame me-- I'm just passing on the sentiments of many of the more experienced folks here. I happen to agree, based on what I've read here.
Because dino is catching up and the lines are blurring, I see no reason to spend extra on some of these fake synthetics, and no reason to believe in their superiority.
I guess we can agree to disagree. I will say that I think my claims have some logic to them, and although I am not making general references to having read technical papers as proof, this does not invalidate what I'm suggesting.
bottgers, your response to wtd indicates that you did not understand his post.
So you see, who or what should I believe about how long this oil is good for? Does this suggest that Mobil 1 is not as good as it appears to be or what? I used to blindly believe that I could go 5,000 miles easy on Mobil 1 but according to the people at Blackstone labs, this is not true for my application.
I definatly don't want to keep spending $4+ for a synthetic when it may not be holding up any better than a conventional oil at a fourth of the cost.
What would you do?
Wayne
I have said in quite a few of my last several posts, that my statements of all the syns being superior were based on the lab results I've read. I love reading other folks' testimony as you do, and though I take them into consideration, they aren't as accurate as lab tests are. There are just too many variables with individual testimonies.
wtd
I think your synthetic experiment was the exception, not the norm. I think if 10 people did the same thing you did, at least 8 of them would've turned out just fine. However, if this ends up being the norm for you, you'd definitely be better off going with dino and 3K changes. Why did this happen in your case? Who knows. Like I said, in the real world there are a lot of variables that can't be accounted for.
The old Toyota Sludge site has similar problems. That their viscosity would also thin out a full grade by 5K.
Valvoline Synpower has an SL 5W-40 grade which might be more stable. I haven't seen a Mobil1 5W-40 yet. In order to reduce the viscosity within 5k you are experience some oil shearing on your engine and the heavier weight might be helpful.
MB takes the synthetic oil to an interesting marketing and maintenance and ultimately revenue generating level.
Under the terms of the "maintenance is included for a period of yrs" They will change your oil at the recommended level. ( app 15,000 mile mark) Under the USA's anti trust laws, if a products is mandated or required (use of MB brand synthetic oil,) they must provide the oil. They will ONLY change the oil at earlier intervals 1. If you pay for it 2. Buy their brand.
It's interesting that MB and others cover scheduled maintenance such as oil changes, but they are only willing to offer the freebie on a long-interval schedule. This is as much a cost-saving measure as it is an indication of the safety of such a long interval, in my opinion.
Isn't that the point of this whole exercise?
I guess what I'm saying, and this has been debated here before, is that MB would likely be recommending a shorter change interval if they weren't picking up the tab.
So if it is good enough for MB why not you?
More trouble than I care to go to. Maybe I'm just lazy.
I hope that various manufacturers' recommendation is not your sole reason for going 15,000 miles on oil. I'd call that blind faith.
You can call 3,000 mile intervals overkill or paranoia or whatever, but it's not "blind faith."
Mobil One 0,5,10W-30. Trust me if conventional oil had the same high temperature tolerance and low ash % low evaporation and superior lubrication as synthetic and the ability to go 12-15k at 1 buck a quart, I would surely get the conventional vs the synthetic.