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Comments
THXZ
Howard
DaveM
-Dave
I don't bike but I paddle and this might be a good option for me.
Ed
-juice
Could you explain the VIP programs in a little detail? Where does one find out about them? Congrats, BTW, on the write up on the Town Hall pg.
Cheers
Pat
Basically, it's the pricing program for Subaru employees. Subaru also offers it to members of groups that have an affiliation with them.
You'll notice half the Subies you see have a bike rack on them - mountain biking is definitely in the demographics. So the IMBA (International Mountain Biking Association) has a partnership, and being a member entitles you to the VIP program benefits.
ACA is the American Canoe Association, that too.
A few ski instructor organizations, too, but those are harder to qualify for.
-juice
Six months should be enough time to let the "first on the block" crowd get their XTs and uncover any problems associated with them.
To find out more about the other programs check out Joe Spitz's page at cartersubaru.com (sorry but I don't have exact link handy and not sure Edmunds would let me post it if I did).
Ed
Thanks,
Howard
My guess is you'll find about a $750 dealer incentive, which is harder to verify, but better than a rebate because you do not pay sales tax on the amount.
FWIW, at the very end of the last model year, Subaru had incentives as high as $1200, so it's possible they'll be higher in the fall. Risky, though.
-juice
Howard
In Texas, I'm sure they have far fewer dealers, so you may not be able to match the price, but it's a good benchmark I think.
-juice
Subarus here are a novelty item - usually fit right under the trucks that dominate the road
The Rodeo seemed small, it was hilarious. By far the best, most curteous drivers I have ever seen. And I've been to close to a dozen countries.
-juice
Greg
-juice
HG
http://www.fitzgeraldautomall.com/carfind/resultsa.asp?Search=NEW- &Page=5&max=5&order=
Bob
Under VIP they're not supposed to tack things on. You might want to request that up front, before you schedule your appt. That might limit your choices to newly delivered cars they haven't VIN-etched, though.
But you might get a discount from insurance to offset the cost.
-juice
Thank you,
-juice
-juice
We just traded in our Outback Ltd '02, manual, ( 26,700 miles, leather interior. w/dimming mirror and security upgrade,) on a 2003 Forester XS auto w/o any premium options. We had been thinking we might want to switch to an automatic rather than the manual or at least the new/supposedly improved manual and we went looking for a new car because of all the sales and financing deals, and a Forester because I have a '98 Forester which has been fairly reliable. We couldn't afford to buy another Outback, or so we assumed, but we thought we could maybe get a good deal on a Forester.
Given the prices on Edmunds and other sites I don’t think we got much of a deal. I’ve not purchased all that many cars but enough to look up the actual dealer costs and so on before going forward. But I’ve never traded in a car. I think this is where we went wrong. I think we got ourselves in some sort of shell game with the trade-in vs new car price no matter how we thought we had prepared for it. Our biggest mistake was staying too long and haggling at all and even though we knew not to do that. We let ourselves get sucked in. Despite having pricing guides with me I had a very hard time crunching the numbers at the dealership. Once I signed the purchase agreement and got home the numbers looked painful. Before I assume the dealership took us for a ride here’s the story (please excuse if I made any inadvertent errors in math, I don’t think there’s anything that hugely effects the outcome.
We test drove 2 cars, a Forester XS Premium w leather, manual, and a Forester XS auto w/o premiums. Based on the test drive and depending on what we could get for a trade-in we thought we would go with either trimline in an automatic. However the initial offer on the cars was really confusing as it was coupled with the trade-in and loan payoff. We were asked several times the pay-off amount on the Outback. When I asked how this would affect the cars value I was told it didn’t but that knowing would make things easier. (?) I refused to give the amount but I figured that they have some way of estimating what they think to be your payoff amount. The Outback loan was with Subaru finance.
The offer came like this on the Forester XS Prem/leather:
"You give us the Outback and $8,890.00 and we’ll give you the new XS Prem/leather .
Wait,What? How much is that? We were not prepared for this kind of calculating, which I guess is the idea. What we asked is the actual numeric value of the trade-in? They wrote down 17,400 approx. We calculated that this would mean that the dealer was getting close to 10% above dealer cost. The ended up being OVER the MSRP. This was disputed by the salesperson and sales ("Consumer Reports numbers are never accurate") but the numbers came out like this:
$17,400.00 trade-in plus $8,890.00 = $26,270.00 for a Forester XS pre/leather, automatic
(Msrp/$26,170-Invoice/$23274- Cost/$23,030. This offer seemed about 12% over cost, 9.5% over invoice.
We asked how much would it be for just the Forester XS?
"Give us the Outback and $7188.00 and we’ll give you the new XS.
$17,400.00 trade-in plus $7188.= $24,588.00 for a Forester XS automatic w/no options.
(Msrp/24420-Invoice/$22,231- Cost/$21514). This offer was about 12% over cost, 10% over invoice.
Look we said we’re happy with the trade-in allowance it seems fair given my research and we’re willing to give you 2% over invoice on the new car. "Well then" says the sales, "if we’re going to work with invoice then we can’t give you trade-in value on the Outback we have to give you "cash value" ( I guess this is wholesale?). This reduces the offer on the Outback to $16,000.00. That seemed awfully low because even taking into account a couple of easily remedied things it was at the absolute least, in "Good" condition. We were also told that there were no dealer incentives or holdbacks in effect, but were asked to initial the form that we agreed to give any incentives to the dealership. There were a number of red flags that should have stopped us like being asked to sign the purchase form before it was filled out and "then when you see the business manager he’ll write in the numbers for the bottom line" ( At least we didn’t do THAT) and for some reason not getting them to write a total at the bottom until we brought I the bank draft.
To make a long story short we wore down and took the offer. It seemed like numbers on the new car weren’t too far off my calculations though it wasn’t 2% over invoice like they calculated and we bought the "cash value" story which I regret.
The numbers came out like this:
-$23080,00 for a Forester XS w/no options.
(Msrp/24420-Invoice/$22,231- Cost/$21514). (price paid was 6.8% over cost, 3.5% over invoice)
-$16,000 trade-in allowance for the Outback.. We owed $15,800 outstanding on the Outback loan which they assumed so I made a measly $200.00 on that. The car is rated to retail at between 20,000 and 23,000.00
Maybe we paid a little too much for the new car, I could even live with that, but I think we took a big bath on the trade-in. . Considering what I’ve been reading that others are paying I think I could have gotten a Premium Package loaded for what I paid for the XS had I left and gone to another dealer. And a little more trade-in would have meant I could have stayed with Subaru financing and taken advantage of the current financing incentive but I ended up using my own lender for a longer term note.
It makes the new car look a lot less shiny somehow. I know we have no one but ourselves to blame for signing on the dotted line but I found the sales experience to be surreal mind game. I can't think of any other situation where you are spending a significant amount of money and there is so much subterfuge. It's like buying airline tickets for $300 and finding out the guy next to you paid half because he can bargain better except we're talking $1,000's, especially when financing is involved. I think I’ll go out in the backyard now and scream ..
I've read about the steep depreciation once a new car leaves the lot but it bugged me that it was worth 17,400 if I paid sticker price but worth 1,400 less if I wanted to look at invoice values. It just seemed like a way to confuse the buyer.
If they had just given me actual number for the price of the new car and a direct quote for the trade-in I could have worked with it. I think it was all the squirrelines in how they presented the initial offers and then the subsequent reduction of the trade-in based on "trade vs cash value" that made the whole thing seem suspect.
Perhaps it was all just a way to get me thinking I was getting a good deal on the new car at the final price even though many of them are going for invoice or less. I even received an offer for the same car at invoice from a different dealer after I had purchased from the first one. I guess who knows if that offer would have stood once I got to the 2nd dealership.
Then there was the service rep who while handing us over the keys to the new car looked at the Outback and said "that's an awfully nice car, why are you trading it in?" and when we explained said "I don't know, trading and Outback Limited in for a Forester". Not to dish him, he seemed like the most straight up guy there.
beecave
However, some of your other comments seem fishy.
The dealer said that there were no holdbacks in effect? That's false. The dealer always gets 3% of the MSRP as a holdback (slightly different for New England).
http://www.edmunds.com/advice/incentives/holdback/index.html
Did the dealer show you the invoice price? My wife and I have bought 3 Subes over the past 6 years and the dealers have always showed us the invoice.
I would mention the dealer if I were you. ;-) I would also call 800Subaru3 just to let them know about your dissatisfaction.
-Dennis
bluesubie, thanks I will look there. I'm sure you're right about the holdbacks but I couldn't get anyone to go there. When it gets to where I feel I should mention holdbacks or incentives everyone seems to developed selective hearing. On the invoices. -After we asked for a simple cost on the cars rather than the "give us your Outback and X dollars, etc." they protested our initial numbers on the invoice. But they did then bring out the invoice book and prices were near what we had. We are in New England and we did know about some of the surcharges specific to this area.
I don't mean to be coy on the dealer but I don't want to get called or flamed. I've already had one salesperson at another dealership email me to ask why I hadn' t come back to buy the car we had been discussing and there she had been at the dealeship waiting on me and I hadn't come. After I drove an hour to that particular dealership based on a mutually agreeable phone offer and test drove with the saleperson I asked for some firmer prices. She wanted me to commit to the purchase then and there and said that I wouldn't be buying the car until I returned the next day. She wouldn't give me a price on the car or even look at the Outback for trade-in until I had agreed to buy the new car that night saying I could then just take her offer and go to another dealer and she would get burned.
I suppose I have only myself to blame in all this for not shopping around further.
ps the dealer took the msrp sticker off the car while we were doing up some paperwork at the desk and we never got it. I didn't think to ask for it but the dealer has always just handed it to me in the past. I was referring to the brochure for that trimline and didn't look at the sticker closely when it was on the car
I've posted the price I paid in the "What did you pay" discussion.
So, if the used MSRP and gave you a huge "allowance" on the trade-in, or if you worked from invoice and they gave you "cash value", it shouldn't matter. The result, the Difference should be the same.
Now, if I read your post correctly, you had 2002 OB LTD, with stick shift and approx. 26,000 miles.
That's a lot of miles for an 02. I think a brand spanking new OB LTD with stick can be had for around 23.9 K. So how much would you be willing to pay for a used OB with a cracked windshield and a few chipped paint areas? Replacing the windshield (with the wiper de-icers)is going to cost a few hundred dollars at least. If they were original tires, at 26K, they might need to be replaced shortly, too. Plus figure an oil change as a minimum.
TMV may list a certain price, but I have found through personal experience that dealers here use a black book called "GALVES" that gives values lower than anything you will find on the net.
KBB gives the ridiculously high price of $23,710 for a used Subie OB LTD. I'd like to know what kind of brewskies those guys are having!!
Honestly, I wouldn't pay more than 18-19K for an 02 with that many miles. The dealer has to make a profit on that car, so he may be figuring the same thing as far as a sale goes, and the 04's will be here in a few months too. Plus he has to put money into the car. In some states, depending the location and size of the windshield crack, the car may not pass inspection, and in some states the dealer has to guarantee that the car will pass inspection.
I shouldn't even be posting here as I don't own a Subie. yet.
- Lou
Subaru of NE is like a separate entity (or they try to be). Believe me, raising a little sand helps. I had problems with a Service Manager and Advisor that lied to me about honoring my warranty regarding a clutch problem. I opened a case with SoA and also met with a District Service Manager. I also complained about them on internet forums. I suppose more people complained because both were looking for new jobs within a couple of months. :-)
BTW, a new heated windshield costs ~$700 in NJ.
-Dennis
<It doesn't really matter how they wrote the deal as long as the bottom line is acceptable to both parties.>=
Point taken- but wouldn’t we have left ourselves open to extra charges if we’d signed the contract before any prices had been entered onto it?
<One way is to join the IMBA (mountain bike assoc.) and pay dealer invoice.>
Sounds like a good deal. I’ll have to look into that. We need to get the bikes out more anyway.
I'd looked into all the price guides on Edmunds but didn't go to the community discussions until after I bought the new car. I think I could have gotten some good leads on easy/easier to deal with dealers in my area, but next time!
I'd had the '02 Outback since Oct. 01. The windshield was just the regular type, no heaters. The body and paint were great except for the upper bumper area where I got a bumper cover for the Forester to avoid this again. I was actually only expecting to get somewhere from 16k to 17k especially given that it's a manual so perhaps "taking a bath" on the trade-in is exaggerating. I guess paying less on the Forester would have soothed that depreciation.
Taking all things into consideration like tune-up, paint repair, even the windshield, I figured they could make at least a $1,500. off it. IS this way off-base? Just for the record what is a reasonable profit for the dealer on a trade-in? $500, 1k or more,? Lesson learned, try not to trade-in, I gather from reading here that it's almost always a no-win situation.
The most irritating part of this whole thing was having such a hard time getting an actual price on the new car. And when we objected to what was a ridiculously high price for the Forester to start (we spent some time crunching their numbers to try and figure out the price and when we presented them with the price then they got out the invoice book), to get the subsequent lowering of the trade-in with the explanation offered- that got to me, though I should have anticipated that.
I got pretty bummed after getting the new car home when seeing some of the numbers that everyone else has been paying. Ignorance is bliss I guess.
I was also wondering, can you think of any reason the sticker would be whisked off the windshield and not given to me? I thought I'd call and see if I could have it. It could be just an innocent oversight I suppose but the whole deal with the salesperson/manager and business manager seemed so loaded with an atmosphere of " get them to sign before they realize this-that". . And this didn’t happen fast, it took a couple of hours before we even got to the business manager part. What is that rule of thumb I ignored. ? Don’t spend more than half an hour or they’ve got you?
Maybe I got a good deal and I just couldn't tell because of the runaround way it happened . The exception to this atmosphere is the service area. I went to buy the car at this particular dealership because their service dept has always been good so maybe that's worth the extra cost on the car.
It's my own fault, I went looking in the first place because I assumed they'd be wanting to move the '03's out for the arrival of the '04's and I could get something close to invoice. I should have just kept the Outback and then shopped around longer.
Well, ce la vie. I'll be waiting until the new Outback designs come out, I've heard maybe with the '06 models? I still like that car. A couple of inches more leg and headroom and a redesigned clutch and I'll be back in a manual and an Outback. But I'll be checking with you guys first if you're still around. In the meantime. I've got some accessories to help me bond with the Forester.
-juice
You said, "send me to buyer's school," so for your next new-car purchase, here's a few tips:
The main problem is that your new car purchase (Forester) and your used car sale (Outback) should have been treated a two separate transactions. When you hear the word "allowance" in reference to your trade-in, you're in trouble and it means the salesman is attempting to lump the two deals together into one confusing pot.
We all know the optimal situation would have been to sell the Outback to a private buyer at retail price. But many people wish to avoid the hassle, so just know that you are only going to get wholesale price from any car dealer. But just as you prepared for the new car purchase buy doing some homework on invoice prices, you should also ascertain the *real* wholesale value of your trade-in. And real value is *not* the price listed in any book. Real value is what an actual human will pay for your car today.
So, after the Outback was immaculately cleaned and polished, (and maybe after the windshield was replaced), you take it to as many upper-scale used car dealers as you can. "I'm thinking about selling my Outback, what will you give me for it?" - after appraiser looks it over, he says, "That's a lot of miles for an '02, the most we can do is $16,500." No matter what number he gives, instantly add $500-$1000... "I think that's $1000 low, I was thinking more like $17,500." ... "Tell you what, I can go 17k." ... "Thanks, I'm going to several dealers today, and if your price is the highest, I'll be back."
Repeat this process several more times, also going to the used car lot of *new* car dealers, and especially try to get a price from a Subaru dealership.
You are now armed with a very valuable piece of info: the real wholesale value of your Outback. Now, when you step into the dealership, you know that you can either sell your car to them (if they offer a good price), or to your other highest bidders.
So, when you go in to buy your new Forester, (which, by the way, can be avoided as well by doing the entire purchase negotiation remotely via fax, phone and e-mail) you will now treat the new and used deals *separately*:
"Hi, I'd like to buy an '03 Forester XS w/ these options..."
WARNING: Everything out of the salesman's mouth from here on will be an attempt to extract maximum dollars from your wallet ...
"Great, do you have a trade-in?" ... You: "If you give me a fair price on the Forester, then we can discuss a trade-in, but until then, I may not even buy the Forester from you." ... He may also ask, "What monthly payment were you after?" [wrong - we don't talk payments, only final price] ... "Will you be financing with us?" [wrong - "I'll discuss payment options with your finance manager after we've agreed to my price."] ... Salesman: "Your price is not correct because all of our Foresters come with super-enduro-indestructo-coating - that's a $1,500 value, on sale today for $900." [wrong - "I have absolutely no intention of paying for any useless dealer add-ons. They will either be physically removed or left intact at no cost to me."] And on and on it goes, hence the incentive for a remote transaction ...
At some point Forester price is agreed upon using this formula (% of profit can be whatever you think is reasonable):
Invoice [invoice car + invoice options] (-) holdback [(MSRP car + MSRP all options) x .03] = true dealer cost ... (+) 5% profit (+) destination charge = your final offer.
Now, only after you've got a written buyer's order on the Forester, you do the used car transaction (Outback), not as an "allowance," but as a normal, understandable sale. When (not if) the dealer comes in w/ a low price ... you say, "That's not good enough. I've got a firm price of $17,250 from XYZ dealership. If you'll match that, we've got a deal."
I've simplified this little drama, but you get the drift.
Finally, you might want to read one or all of these books:
What Car Dealers Don't Want You to Know
by Mark Eskeldson
Don't Get Taken Every Time: The Ultimate Guide to Buying or Leasing a Car in the Showroom or on the Internet
by Remar Sutton
Car Buyer's and Leaser's Negotiating Bible
by W. James Bragg
This site also has some good info: http://www.carbuyingtips.com
-tom
So for instance I would rather have a higher trade-in value of a car and pay a slightly higher price on the new one (whatever #s work in my favor)
-mike
I tried at 2 dealers to keep the trade-in out of it by doing some of what you suggest at first like no discussion of the trade-in til I get new price on the car, but when they came back with the $9000. plus your trade-in equals the cost of the car. Well the sheer challenge of figuring that out just sucked me right in and I tried to beat the house forgetting that you can never beat the house. I have to hand it to them it was ingenious.
You know there's that psychological aspect to all this where you just can't stand the "aaayyygh, they did it to me again!" feeling. That's almost the worst part. If only the cost didn't preclude getting back on the horse for another try. I'll have to wait a few years for that.
I do thank everyone who took the time to offer commentary on my adventure. Maybe I can be an example for future buyers of how not to buy a car!
bee
The internet has given the car buyer invaluable research and buying tip sources. I know exactly how I'm going to buy my next car, how to calculate it, how to trade my old one, and a whole host of things I never would have known when I first started buying cars simply from spending hours on the internet in places like here.
As more people become internet saavy so the days of the vulgar gold-and-diamond salespeople will be numbered. I'm sure new schemes will appear but car buying just might become a somewhat painless process. Right now I'd rather go to the dentist than a car dealership.
-Frank
Bee- As Jason pointed out, it is the salesperson's job to confuse you as much as possible in order to extract the maximum amount of money from your wallet (remember they work on commission). To that end, they will do everything possible to avoid discussing actual prices. They much prefer to talk monthly payments or the "difference" between your trade-in and the new car price. The biggest lesson to learn is to be able to walk out away from a deal you don't feel comfortable with. There's always a tomorrow and they'll still be making cars then.
My rule of thumb is, the harder the salesperson tries to push the deal and keep you from walking, the more likely it is that the deal favors the dealership.
-Frank P.
So when I'm ready for the next car I'll be armed and ready to go back into the fray! (For an XT-manual, with perforated leather seats, if they have that option by then).
thanks all,
bee
-mike
-Frank P.
-mike
Steven
Bx Sci Class of '82