Subaru Crew - Meet The Members II

1152153155157158692

Comments

  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I'm still not sure what you'd want to see in this super-duty forester besides what Juice and I mentioned that would be cheap to put on it.

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    What if SPT just re-sold parts like these:

    Lovell springs, 2" lift, $360
    Front skid plate, aluminum, $300
    Big wheel and tire package (*), $800
    Front LSD, $900

    * you'd probably have to move the spring base or get new struts for the rear to fit these

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    of a vehicle that could be alternative to the Nissan Patrol, etc. What it will take to do that, I don't know.

    I just think there is a market out there—thinking globally, not just North America—for a HD Subaru model. As noted the Forester is the best seller for Subaru in Australia. That tells me there could very well be a market for a much beefier version, if it were available.

    To me this just seems like a natural progression (or evolution) of Subaru's AWD, their rallying experience, and their rugged image, in terms of marketing. I really don't see it as an unrealistic stretch. It's still very much a "niche" product, and builds upon everything Subaru has done for the last 20 years or so.

    Bob
  • tincup47tincup47 Member Posts: 1,508
    Go to a new product launch for a couple of hours and have to play catchup. Rob, Land Rover Products have ETC, so if 1 wheel can get traction it will move. Also the G-wagen was originally designed for the German Army, they later came out with a luxury version for the rich.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    My understanding was the former Shah of Iran commissioned MB to design and build the G-wagon first, as his personal vehicle, or for his military; then it became a military vehicle for Germany.

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    the biggest stumbling block for Subaru to build a hard-core off-roader, be it a clean sheet of paper design, or a super-duty Forester; is the lack of a diesel engine.

    Outside North America most hard-core 4WDs are diesels. Until Subaru has such an engine, I see this as mostly a pipe dream.

    Now if Subaru, with the help of GM and Isuzu, got together—especially with Isuzu's diesel expertise, and could produce an excellent boxer diesel, that would change the picture considerably. Until then, as much as I would like to see it happen, it's probably unlikely to occur.

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    FHI's industrial products Robin Division, makes some diesel engines. Also FHI has built buses and trains, so they do have in-house diesel experience.

    Bob
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Offering a more off-road oriented Forester is interesting but it poses some challenges to it's product positioning, IMO. Has Subaru ever been in this market? How does it fit in with "SUV tough, car easy"?

    I like juice's idea of an aftermarket kit to allow enthusiasts the ability to transform their Forester into a boulder hopping beast. Maybe Subaru could meet halfway by offering the dual-range tranny over here.

    Ken
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I'm thinking other markets first, not the USA; Australia and the like. The marketing of Subaru there and in other markets is not at all like the marketing here.

    Frankly, I don't know how it would fit here, if at all.

    Bob
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Ah. Okay. That makes sense.

    Ken
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Isuzu has a 4cylinder turbo diesel that they put in boats and the new CRV in europe, they could snag that from Duramax, Inc. and put that in there.

    -mike
  • grahampetersgrahampeters Member Posts: 1,786
    G'day

    I am not sure that FHI would have a lot of joy in breaking into the large, rugged off-road market here in Australia. As has been mentioned by others, a lot of the 4WD activity here in Australia is for long distance dirt track touring. This is feasible, even on the fringes of the cities with very difficult 4WD trails within 20 miles of Sydney and Melbourne. More fun for many people though are the traverses of the major deserts.

    It may spoil the image of the rugged outback but Australia is one of the most highly urbanised countries in the world. However, many city residents own 4WDs for recreational purposes, although many never make it off the school run.

    I come from the country and my father used to run a fleet of 4WDs as he ran a mine surveying/engineering operation. Historically, they used Jeeps through the early 1950's moving to Landrovers and then experiencing pure joy when the Toyota FJ40 was introduced. This rapidly became the vehicle of choice for farmers and miners across Australia. It even ran to the luxury of a a heater, something Landrowver had difficulty with. In addition, the electrics worked reliably and the need for repairs dropped to a fraction of the Landrover cost.

    In Australia the FJ series is still sold with a wide range of options. There is a huge range of body styles available and the vehicle sells parallel to the more urbanized landcruiser Station Wagon. In rural areas, it is easier to get parts for a Landcruiser than any other vehicle. The very long model life also permits interchangability of worn bits.

    My sister and brother in law are into serious off-roading of the sort which requires great care. They tour for a week or so at a time through the mountains between Melbourne and Sydney which are essentially untouched but for occassional tracks. They have just replaced their 3yo Nissan pathfinder with a Landcruiser, replacing the Diffs with locking units, fitting bull bars (I do not approve) heavy winch and such like. They use it as intended and love it.

    For manufacturers other than Toyota, the market is large but not sufficient to warrant the spend on seriously ruggedised platforms.

    An aside; Toyota make an even larger vehicle than the Landcruiser (sort of Landcruiser on steroids to reach Hummer size) but it does not make it out of Japan. Steve may know what it is called and what the specs are.

    Cheers

    Graham
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I remember the Hummer-Cruiser. I don't remember the actual name though.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    IMHO GM would laugh if Subaru asked for R&D funds to develop a truck. That's Isuzu's market as far as they're concerned. Isuzu even has that diesel engine you mentioned.

    Look at Japan - they rebadged an Opel as the Traviq. If Subaru got a truck, it would be a Rodeo clone. GM is not going to give priority to other markets, and I doubt they'll even consider anything but a minicar for non-US sale.

    That's the current trend - global platforms, local customization. Subaru just isn't going to get its own clean-sheet platform.

    I say spend that R&D money to certify the Legacy and Forester turbos for US sale. Get Lutz in there, to bring the best products from oversease to this huge market, where they can make a serious dent. Do to JDM Subarus what Lutz is doing to Holdens for GM - bring them here!

    -juice
  • ray70ray70 Member Posts: 18
    I agree with you guys that there is a market for a beefed up Forester. I would be first in line if it were available in the U.S. today. When I bought my MY01 L I was very worried that it would not go where I needed to go. I started looking for a truck based vehicle, and then tried the Forester because of the great ratings by Consumer Report. Overall, I have by extremely pleased with my Forester, but wished it were equiped with the off-road equipment you folks have just described. I also had "hopes" that the Baja would have off-road capabilities, because I need a new pick-up. After watching to war in Afganastan, I have become very interested in the Toyota Tacoma, because it is widely used by the natives and it looks reliable.

    Ray
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Ray: you can do it all yourself, check out isrperformance.com for starters. Anyone got a link for those skid plates?

    If you want to discuss this in more details, let's hop over to the Mods thread.

    -juice
  • lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    At least I can rest easy knowing financial markets are secure today. :rolleyes:

    :p
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    have been terrific TV commercials for Toyota trucks—and it didn't cost Toyota a cent!

    Bob
  • twrxtwrx Member Posts: 647
    Where I live large USA SUVs are popular (Expos, 'burbs and even Excursions)> Outbacks are rare but now we see many Toyota Tundras and Sequoias. In this part of the redneck world they are quite popular. Maybe that is because I live in Evansville, IN which is 15 miles south of the Toyota plant where they are made HEH <HEH-- buy American-- Outback or Toyota truck and help us Hoosiers out! The year after they came out I was on vacation in NNew Mexico and Colorado. The Tundra was everywhere. At that time they were more numerous out there than back home. Funny how I saw each of those vehicles before the rest of you. The local Toyota dealer got them months early and salesmen were driving them around. I saw a Tundra in December of the year before their May release! Hope to see that cool stepside model early too.

    TWRX
  • fibber2fibber2 Member Posts: 3,786
    Wow, over 55 posts in this thread today - tough to keep up. Welcome to our club! Hope you didn't mind my Sci-Fi references this morning. The basic wording for the post came to me while showering at 6am. Funny what the mind conjures up when you are still half asleep. Maybe nothing to fear from an Invasion of the Body Snatchers, but I think you get the picture about our admiration towards Patti.

    My wife Beth is into high end embroidery sewing, and her toys cost $3-5k each. She also comments when I tell her 'Patti stories' how she wishes Husqvarna/Viking, Brother, etc., would monitor/comment/feedback issues on the sewing bulletin boards. We are lucky indeed.

    While I have your ear hope you don't mind if I add a few comments on the Toyota issues:

    1) My local dealer is a Toyota / Subaru shop. In mid January, before the Sludge issue got national attention, I did a 'while you wait' appt, and could overhear the write-up desk. The service writer was calling customers with estimates & getting approval for work. The Subaru calls were pretty routine - minor service, replacement parts, etc. But the Toyota calls seemed to be dominated by "we noted significant buildup of sludge and recommend the $99 solvent engine flush". Salesmanship? maybe.... It sure seemed wierd at the time. A few weeks later it took on special significance.

    2) In November, my sister & b-in-l took delivery of their '02 Sienna, having returned their leased '99 Sienna. Four days and 300 miles later the engine siezed. She said that the vehicle was held as 'exhibit A' until a team from Georga (?) could arrive and dismantle it. The word she got was internal cooling passage restrictions, localized overheating, death... She filed under NJ lemon law and received a new van in December. So far, all is well. Fluke or extreme example? I vote for bad casting or machining, but who knows?

    It is of course a real shame. As the rest of the crew knows, I have owned several and have great respect for the marque. But unfortunately, I too felt the sting of 'we don't care' over a transmission problem some years back. And as I told you, I did just help my dad buy an Avalon two weeks ago. Now I pray that he doesn't end up hating me for it!!!

    Steve
  • subaru_teamsubaru_team Member Posts: 1,676
    about "black box" type chips in vehicles? No, Subaru doesn't have them at this time, but I was wondering what you thought of them. At first I had a very bad = Big Brother= reaction. But, after thinking about it, I think it may be a good idea. From what I understand, the thought behind these are to report data/or a freeze frame of what happened in a vehicle for a 9 second window prior to an accident. Where seat belts in use? How fast was the car going? Where brakes applied? What systems activated - ABS, Air Bags, etc. In the long run, it might end up saving lives and customer's money and stopping some lawsuits. I had heard that the ACLU is up in arms about it. Any thoughts on it here?

    Patti
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Why? Because it can't capture the whole picture, it becomes the judge and jury in a situation. For instance, if someone was speeding or didn't apply the brakes, would the opposing party then automatically be right in an accident? Would the person be held personally liable? Just my 10 cents worth! (darn inflation)

    -mike
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    As I was finishing reading Patti's post and mentally weighing the pros and cons of black boxes, I knew instinctively that paisan would be dead set against them. And lo and behold, look who the next post is from :-)

    -Frank P.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Well I'm just surrounded here in NYC with people who love to "do as I say, not as I do" mentality and would love nothing more than to say "Look he was going 5mph over the limit, he must be the culprit in this accident" meanwhile the jerk who you hit cut you off or came out of nowhere and for some reason you are incapacitated and unable to defend yourself so they go by the "facts" from the black box.

    -mike
  • lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    When was the last time ANY of you entered an exit ramp at the posted "safe speed" in your own car? That's what I thought. That number is a lowest-common-denominator that hasn't changed since bias-ply tires were common. So let's say the "safe speed is 25 mph, folks usually go in comfortably at 40 mph, but this day there is a little black ice there, and some poor soul (lacking the car-control skills and AWD of the Subaru Crew of course :')) ), aware of the potential for bad weather that day, rolls in at a more cautious 34mph. Slides and wrecks into the guardrail. Sorry, insurance gets off scot free because the little black box says the driver was "speeding," even though no one has gone 25mph on that ramp in 2.5 decades.
  • lark6lark6 Member Posts: 2,565
    I think we only have to look to the case of the auto rental agency in CT that was using GPS systems in a quasi-governmental fashion to fine speeders to figure out the likely future of "black box" technology in cars. That being said, given the war footing the US is currently in, the cycle of restricting civil liberties in the interest of national security has deepened and could conceivably be extended to this arena.

    That's all I'll say about that.

    Ed
  • wmiller4wmiller4 Member Posts: 97
    I must totally agree with Paisan.

    Black Box Bad! I can just see trial attorneys, vehicle manufacturers
    getting their hands on it and using the information for evil!!!!
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    You do know that those yellow speed limit signs are not ticketable nor required speeds (the ones for turn speeds) at least not in NYS. It is one of the questions on the driving exam. Only the ones with Black lettering on white background are the "true" speed limit.

    -mike
  • fibber2fibber2 Member Posts: 3,786
    Lucien still has a valid point. In an accident, culpability of the parties is assessed on a 'points/percentage' basis. And yes, conditions and warning/caution signs are used in the equation, even though the sign is not technically binding from a ticketing standpoint.

    Steve
  • fibber2fibber2 Member Posts: 3,786
    I see that you are still here! Didn't let the vampire in, so all is right with Subaru and the world?

    (Sorry Cliffy!!!) :-)

    Steve
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Just was pointing it out, but it's far more subjective than an outright speeding violation. In either case Black Box = Bad

    -mike
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Lucien- Couple of things wrong with your scenario... First off, the insurance company has to pay regardless of whether the driver is at fault (although your rates will go up). Secondly, black box or not, the cop is still going write a ticket stating the driver is at fault for "driving too fast for the conditions". This is a given any time a driver hits a stationary object unless you can prove a mechanical malfunction (very difficult as well as rare).

    -Frank P.
  • fibber2fibber2 Member Posts: 3,786
    of a black box either. While in most cases the data could be valuable, there is substantial opportunity for abuse. I just cannot see giving insurers and the govt that big of a potential advantage. They can afford a sharp legal team - I cannot.

    I am waiting for the day when the 'EasyPass' toll tag system begins being used for automatic speeding ticket generation. I understand that the data has already been used in criminal prosecution - whereabouts and time sequences.

    Steve
  • lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    ...but I still don't like the idea.... :)
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Will never be used to ticket people for speeding from point A to point B. If they start to pull that then people will go back to cash and the highway system will be stuck with a huge white elephant, not to mention the police unions would be screaming loud about it. They do however use radar in the ez-pass lanes and will suspend your account for exceeding the speed through the booth (had my account suspended for 3-30day stints for 3 infractions the same weekend :( )

    -mike
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    I see a lot of benefits, but also risks.

    What I'd like to see is that they are standardized on all cars, but also that they are barred from being used as evidence in any sort of litigation.

    Yes, I mean any.

    -Colin
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    mike- "had my account suspended for 3-30day stints for 3 infractions the same weekend'

    Why am I not suprised? ;-)

    -Frank P.
  • subaru_teamsubaru_team Member Posts: 1,676
    you all weren't as wonderful as our Crew, and took that exit ramp at 50 mph, wracked up the car and sued the manufacturer because it didn't hold the road?

    Are we having fun yet?

    Patti
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I thought it was kinda funny that I got 3 separate letters saying if I continued it would be suspended for 30 days for each infraction. I probably could have fought it saying that they were all like 3hrs apart, but I just used a friend's EZ pass for the 3 months it was suspended. Now I always go whatever the posted limit is through the booths! Although a few in NJ are nice they are 50mph through the booth.

    -mike
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Has a car company lost because the car didn't hold the road? I don't believe they have lost many of them. People would still sue, black box or not, and they'd loose just the same.

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Would the speeds measured even be accurate? What if the wheels leave the ground while your foot is even momentarily on the accelerator?

    Imagine someone else forces you off the road and you jump a curb. The Black Box says you were going 120mph and so it's YOUR fault, sorry you'll have to pay for the damage on your car and the other guy's car who bumped you, oh and by the way the insurance will not cover it, and did we tell you that you are under arrest for attempted manslaughter, by the way?

    OK, that's a little extreme. ;-)

    Bob: I don't think the Toyotas that helped the Taliban for decades make for good publicity. In fact, one Toyota wag was publicly saying how the Taliban bought them for the same reasons Americans do, durability and capability, and another Toyota guy finally told him to "SHUT UP"!

    -juice
  • bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    Might be good, might be bad.

    Unfortunately, a good portion of the population doesn't take responsibility for their own actions.
    People drive around without seatbelts and underinflated tires, then sue the manufacturer when they have a blowout.

    -Dennis
  • tincup47tincup47 Member Posts: 1,508
    Lawyers might be discouraged from bringing as many suits, as there would be hard evidence of what their clients did, as opposed to what they claimed they did. It would also be of great help to NHTSA and the manufacturers to gather information about accidents that were uncolored by people trying to cover up what really happened. We require this of the airline industry, which does not have near the number of annual fatalities that automobile drivers do. Hard data would probably lead to a push for improved driver training, more realistic goverment safety standards, and improved highway design. The current system of data gathering for these issues is flawed due to the lack of precision that these chips would give.
  • Karen_SKaren_S Member Posts: 5,092
    These are archived discussions in N&V, but thought some may be interested in the comments.

    Is "BIG Brother" under your front seat?

    Black Boxes for Cars?


    And on a related note (current discussion in N&V)...

    Big Brother Cameras and Radar


    KarenS
    Host
    Owners Clubs

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    tincup: but then you'd have the consumer paying for something (probably expensive) that would be used against them. That raises an ethical question.

    Also, I disagree with the use of the hard data. It would end up lost in Congress, where they'd pass the 55 speed limit again, along with a bunch of other laws to limit driving freedoms.

    So, do you want to pay maybe $300 so other people can sue you and then end up having to drive 55 on highways designed to carry you safely along at 75? No thanks.

    You make a good point, the data COULD be used in a positive way, but do you trust the US government to use it appropriately? I don't.

    -juice
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I will promtly remove said chips upon bringing my car home from the dealer if these are ever put into a car I own. :)

    -mike
  • tincup47tincup47 Member Posts: 1,508
    55mph was initially passed as a fuel saving measure, it was continued from political pressure that had no hard data to refute it. As years went by, there was statistical evidence it was not cost effective nor a contributor to highway safety. The data led to the repeal. I share your distrust of Congress to a degree, but I believe having facts instead of supossitions lead to better laws. These chips are already in some vehicles (Corvettes for one come to mind). IMHO the positives outweigh the negatives.
  • declansdaddeclansdad Member Posts: 120
    Maybe SOA could offer incentives to the customers to have the black boxes installed...let's say 3 years of routine maintenance or maybe some $$$(rebate).

    Personally, I don't like the idea, but maybe some people wouldn't mind (and the incentives may help persuade others that may be on the "fence").

    Michael
  • subaru_teamsubaru_team Member Posts: 1,676
    the scenerio I painted is purely fiction. I do read about a lot of litigation, but I wouldn't try to "quote" what happened. That being said, the cost of defending yourself against claims like this can be incredible, win or lose.

    Karen - thanks for directing me there. I'll read up!

    Dennis & Chuck - what you are saying is what pushed me to start re-thinking my anti "big brother" position.

    I think I'm still on the fence here.
  • lilbluewgn02lilbluewgn02 Member Posts: 1,089
    paisan-"Will never be used to ticket people for speeding from point A to point B."
    Actually, in Italy, the toll tickets on the Autostrada have the date and time stamped on them...when you arrive at your destination toll booth, the machines automatically calculate your speed thru your journey, and if it is above what it should be as per speed limits, it automatically adds a speeding fine to your toll...no polizia autostradale needed.
Sign In or Register to comment.

Your Privacy

By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our Visitor Agreement.