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Comments
-mike
I'm curious - On your profile you list information about your knowledge on Toyota vehicles which looks pretty extensive. Why have you choosen only the Subaru board to share your knowledge? I'm sure that the Toyota folks would appreciate your participation and welcome it as much as we do. Anyway, I was just wondering if it was our groups dazzling reputation that attracted you or, can we interest you in a new Subaru WRX??
Patti
-juice
Bob
I am a layman reading whatever articles I might find about it and a few reputable sources (newspapers such as the atlanta journal) don't seem to paint it quite so clearly. They sited numerous customers that documented proof (through jiffy lube, etc.) of 4,000 - 6,000 mile oil changes.
Are they wrong or misrepresenting the facts? If not, I understand that Toyota sells more 3.0L V6 models than Subaru sells overall-- several times over. So statistically speaking, a few dozen cases of sludge aren't that surprising-- but *are* they really cases of lax maintenance?
-Colin
Thanks, Patti
I guess you could say it's like Budweiser vs. a Microbrewery. Toyota spills more beer than Subaru brews all year.
I'm going to sit on the side lines on this one. I do find it interesting because I considered the Highlander, and my wife likes Camrys and Avalons.
If I had one, I would switch to synthetic oil and shorten the intervals, just to be sure. In fact, I'll probably shorten my oil change intervals for all my cars, just as a preventative measure.
-juice
If the design is such that the oil temp in that area is too high, normal mineral oil will break down.
-Colin
http://www.autonews.com/article.cms?articleId=38302&a=a&bt=sludge
Patti
cliffy1 "Toyota Solara--Part 6" Feb 22, 2002 10:57am
until it was cleaned by dealership technicians working on a recent warranty issue, my engine bay was pretty filthy.
would a person who has robust documentation from a quick-lube servicer have any troubles getting a sludge problem warrantied? say 4k mile changes, documented history from Jiffy Lube saying what parts were replaced and what brand & grade of oil was used.
my car also has some modifications. if it had a toyota badge instead of subaru sounds like I would have been paying the bill.
tyguy: I've read that article. one ASE-certified tech looking at one or even a handful of cars answers nothing really. his comment about oil temp asks a question that later testing might answer.
-Colin
I have had 2 bad experiences with domestic manufacturers and dealers and will probably never buy GM again as a result.
(Long answer to a short question but I just wanted to point out that her involvement here was a factor in my purchase.)
On another note, I recall reading your posts over on the Prius board about a year ago. I was very impressed with your responses and responsiveness.
I hope you join us on a regular basis here on the Crew. I enjoyed reading your insights.
Ron
:-)
Ross
Cheers Pat.
-mike
The thing that I find here is not necessarily buying into the "corporate" line. If something is being said by our folks, I have the luck/ability to question it a bit and to try and make a change. Subaru listens. Maybe your corporate executives should listen to a caring person like yourself. Change can happen, but you have to get the right set of ears.
This is a great forum. I hope (for your sake and the sake of your customers) that they listen to what you are hearing and appreciate your efforts. I do.
Patti
This comment comes from a long distance. I am a regular poster to these boards but live in Australia. I am professionally qualified in marketing and work in the Insurance Industry, dealing wih customer problems every day. This puts some balance on what I percieve, I hope. I stress however that the following comments are my own thoughts and come without endorsement of Subaru or Patti.
Patti has made clear that whilst she is an employee of SOA, she takes an active interest on the Subaru Crew pages outside of her job, albeit with the tacit knowledge of her employers.
I see this channel as being a novel, almost unique marketing communication route for a manufacturer/distributor to interact directly with the end user of their product. It gives the manufacturer the chance to hear both the good and the bad points of their product in use. Inevitably when customers concerns or feedback are channelled through the hierarchy at a dealer then regional distribution the message is ditorted and the complaints muted. This alternative is far more direct and gives real news.
The normal communication routes to SOA are good but sometimes problems arise, as anyone in customer facing roles, will know. Patti will sometimes take a look at a problem raised on these boards, peering politely over a Customer Service Rep's shoulder to ensure a resolution is achieved. It's not heavy handed and she does not take on the rep's role directly. For Subaru Crew members, it's more along the line of "A Friend at the Plant". That's not chasing favours but making sure problems do get sorted to both parties satisfaction. The pay off is in the extraordinary customer loyalty Subaru enjoy.
From time to time, this has been abused by other posters but the Subaru Crew members are largely self regulating, pointing up the ill manners of these folk, when they become offensive. There are several regular Crew Members with enough gravitas and good sense to calm down most hot-heads. A good forum mediator is a wonderful balance to these pages. I liken it to the kindly bloke who takes the stroppy drunk out the back of the pub and gently points out the facts of life.
There have been about three real abuses of the goodwill of Patti over the last eigteen months, each apparently motivated by a customer "on the make". These are usually obvious as their complaints look dramatically different to the norm and their expectations run to something unrealistic, like "New for old" replacement on a well worn vehicle. I think Patti may have developed a strategy to deal with these problems, possibly by backing away from these pages for some time. One of the great joys of Chat pages is that you can fade out when you need to.
As with all manufactured products, Subarus are less than perfect. Regular readers of these pages would know, for example, that some early Foresters may have wheel bearing problems due to incorrect fitment. Other beefs are minor but where there is an obvious problem, Subaru has not sought to deny it, but to address the issue promptly. They have won immense respect for their courage in addressing real concerns as they arise.
With respect, it sounds like the Toyota sludge problem may be a real problem complicated by issues over customer servicing. There was a similar large scale problem here in Australia a year or two ago. The vehicle manufacturers and oil supplier (the problem only manifested itself under particular conditions of oil type and long service intervals common to some European vehicles) worked to address the problem proactivaley and it rapidly faded from mind for all who were affected.
It's a matter of knowing when you are losing and getting out before the adverse publicity affects you too badly. There is a lovely earthy Australian phrase for this which loses something in translation - "Get out digger, your dog's pissing on your swag!"
Cheers
Graham
ps Translation service for the Upside Down Folk
"stroppy" = obstreporous or the sort of bloke who wants to pick a fight with everyone in the pub.
"Get out digger, your dog's pissing on your swag!" = Keep your mouth shut. Whilst you keep talking, you are missing far more important things going on around you.
Thanks!
Patti
FWIW, the existence of this post, Patti and Subaru's courageous commitment to dialogue with customers is one of the main reasons I've decided to buy a Subaru.
Finally, congratulations Graham for the accomplishments of Alisa Camplin. To say she represented Australia attractively would be gross understatement.
Excellent information and excellent post Graham. However, I'm not surprised...
Bob
Regards
M
I was asking about sludge and he said that boxers don't develop a sludge problem as bad as other engine configurations. He has never seen a Subaru with a sludge problem using conventional or synthetic.
Graham - Excellent post! You really follow these forums closely.
-Dennis
I understand your frustration. I'd feel the same way. I'm sure it can be fixed once and for all if the right folks get involved.
Thanks.
Patti
Thanks for listening (reading),
Jim J.
Bob
Generally you'd hope they'd be proactive, and give customers the benefit of the doubt. I don't think it's wise to get adversarial. I'd believe maybe 10% of the claims are bogus, at most.
I'd hope to see:
1. Oil coolers installed for free or at heavy discounts. Maybe free parts, customer pays for labor only, something like that.
2. Service schedule changed to 3k miles in extreme use, 5k miles otherwise. Maybe let a semi-independent arm like SPT (or TRD) take over making these recommendations.
3. Recommend synthetics for extreme driving, whether its towing, off roading, or autocross, plus oil changes immediately after severe activities (off roading). They should even make synthetic available at dealerships.
4. Offer an on-line way to record any maintenance done by outside sources, whether it be Jiffy Lube, the owners themselves, or whatever. Subaru actually already does this (mysubaru.com). That's what I use.
5. Consider offering free maintenance on future models. Or at least significant discounts. The LL Bean comes with 3 years free service, and Lexus models do, too. Offer incentives for service at dealers.
6. Offer each customer a tour of the service bay when they buy a car. Show them what exactly gets done, and explain why it's important.
7. Replace my engine if it was damaged. Sorry, no excuses. This would make or break the manufacturer, in my humble opinion.
Costs may be high, but what are the costs of not doing anything? Look at it this way, you are car shopping and you see a Kia sedan for $18k, and a Toyota (oops I mean Subaru) sedan for $20k. For now let's assume they are identical in equipment.
What would you choose? 9/10 consumers would choose the latter. That's the value of the name, it carries a real value, several thousand dollars per car in my opinion.
So, either address the problem, or chop $2k off the sticker price of every car you sell for the rest of time.
-juice
I agree that Patti's presence here is a unique exercise in channel marketing. I haven't seen anything that resembles her interaction from other car companies. I certainly does provide us owners with a sense of community and pride for owning a Subaru. I hope that Patti and Subaru gets as much out of these exchanges as we do.
One thought I've pondered is if and how this would work with a much larger car company. My guess is that it wouldn't work -- a great resource like Patti would certainly be inundated by sheer numbers of consumers.
Ken
Jim J.
-Frank P.
:-)
Ross
Next, thanks to all of you for the input. There are a number of things I would like to say on the topic of what Toyota is looking at, but it really isn't my place to say. I have had a lot of contact with a couple of folks at TMS, and they are reading this thread, as well as several others.
Finally to Patti, I really wish we could have an off-line and unofficial conversation. I understand why you can't but I'm dying to ask you a few questions that would not be appropriate to publicly post here.
Ron
Bob
Mark
Bob
I wrote a very long essay on Toyota 4WD systems and a lot of it dealt with the interaction of the VSC. You may want to check it out, although I must wan you that a guy named wwest has muddled the topic of late. It is under the SUV conference and is called "Toyota 4WD Systems Explained."
Ken
I believe the Highlander and RAV4 use a VC, similar to the manual tranny Subarus (except the WRX), like mine. Highlander then offers VSC as a stand alone option.
I have a question about the VC+VSC systems Toyota uses, for you, Cliffy. A few folks here attended the BMW Ultimat Driving Event, and they put an X5 up against a Lexus RX300. They drove both up one of those ramps that test traction to each individual wheel. The RX did not make it all the way up, though I suspect BMW may have been cheating, perhaps switching VSC off.
Do you know if Lexus has conducted this test themselves? I left the event very suspicious that they were cheating. The BMW also won a slalom race, but later I noticed the RX's tires were bald.
-juice
The WRX automatic also uses the VDT (but not VDC) that Ken mentioned, again with a 45/55 front to rear power split. All other Subaru automatics use an electronic clutch pack, with a normal front-to-rear power split of 90/10 (there is some debate as to whether it is actually 80/20, rather than 90/10), again changing as driving needs dictate.
Bob
I have a VC and it works great, but VTD gets my nod for Subaru's best AWD system.
-juice
Guys, correct me if I'm wrong here.
Bob
If the SC+TC spreads throughout the lineup, we may see fewer and fewer VC models in the Subaru lineup.
-juice
Juice, in answer to your question, I have never seen a Highlander or RX300 (twins) on a traction hill test. I do know that many manufacturers, including Toyota always try to demonstrate their systems in such a way that the competition fails. That's pretty common. When I worked for Isuzu, they had test set up that highlighted the good parts of the Rodeo and Trooper but hid some of the shortcomings. To the salesmen present, it was an effective way to pump them up.
Isn't a torsen differential based on planetary gears? So, is it incorrect to describe VTD as a torsen-type AWD system with the added ability to change power splits using the electronic clutch?
Ken
The reason I mention that is because I started a topic over in the Pickup area not too long ago: "Have we reached the upper limit in pickup size." My feeling is that full-size pickups just keep getting larger with each new generation, and I was trying generate a discussion on that. Well it turns out to have evolved into another "Tundra vs. Detroit" discussion. It's hard to keep these discussions on track... You've done a good job there.
Bob