Subaru Crew - Meet The Members II

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Comments

  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I think it would be a great idea for Toyota to have "official" representation here or on the net in general. I'd gladly apply for the job as a part-time job :) The internet is a whole new venue that most major companies are only using at the lowest levels right now. They currently use em as billboards essentially, and get little or no feedback from the net. If they were more interactive (like patti is) then manufacturers in general could build cars their customers really wanted instead of guessing or basing it on what some high paid consultants tell them the public wants. There is no value that can be put on 1st hand experience with the end users to really know your customers.

    -mike
  • subaru_teamsubaru_team Member Posts: 1,676
    on my part, participation on this board is a wonderful and informative experience. I get as much out of it as I give.

    I'm curious - On your profile you list information about your knowledge on Toyota vehicles which looks pretty extensive. Why have you choosen only the Subaru board to share your knowledge? I'm sure that the Toyota folks would appreciate your participation and welcome it as much as we do. Anyway, I was just wondering if it was our groups dazzling reputation that attracted you or, can we interest you in a new Subaru WRX??

    Patti
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    LOL, Patti!

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    You go girl...

    Bob
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    quote: Further, every case they have examined of a sludged engine suggests poor maintenance.

    I am a layman reading whatever articles I might find about it and a few reputable sources (newspapers such as the atlanta journal) don't seem to paint it quite so clearly. They sited numerous customers that documented proof (through jiffy lube, etc.) of 4,000 - 6,000 mile oil changes.

    Are they wrong or misrepresenting the facts? If not, I understand that Toyota sells more 3.0L V6 models than Subaru sells overall-- several times over. So statistically speaking, a few dozen cases of sludge aren't that surprising-- but *are* they really cases of lax maintenance?

    -Colin
  • subaru_teamsubaru_team Member Posts: 1,676
    I by no means mean my post as an insult. I apologize if it appears that way. I'm just curious. I think you will bring a nice and interesting aspect to our post.

    Thanks, Patti
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    It's 3000 so far per Automotive News, but that's out of 3.3 million vehicles. Still, the frequency of sludge is higher than normal for these particular engines. So did Toyota convince its buyers that they were so reliable that regular maintenance wasn't required? But then why are only certain engines singled out?

    I guess you could say it's like Budweiser vs. a Microbrewery. Toyota spills more beer than Subaru brews all year.

    I'm going to sit on the side lines on this one. I do find it interesting because I considered the Highlander, and my wife likes Camrys and Avalons.

    If I had one, I would switch to synthetic oil and shorten the intervals, just to be sure. In fact, I'll probably shorten my oil change intervals for all my cars, just as a preventative measure.

    -juice
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    It's not as if this problem can't be investigated. Installing an oil temperature sensor near the area affected on a few hundred cars will tell you something, no matter how they are maintained.

    If the design is such that the oil temp in that area is too high, normal mineral oil will break down.

    -Colin
  • Regarding measuring the temperature, it's already been done. Here's a link to the story with some of the research in it:


    http://www.autonews.com/article.cms?articleId=38302&a=a&bt=sludge

  • cliffy1cliffy1 Member Posts: 3,581
    I got your meaning. I've been posting here long enough to tell when a joke has been told, although the lack of tone of voice can often make that difficult. If you wouldn't mind taking a few moments and sending me an e-mail, I would appreciate it. My address is in my profile. I've just got a few questions I would like to pose to you off line regarding the happenings at Edmunds. You have Toyota, and myself very curious.
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Member Posts: 3,581
    There are 2 sides to every story. I really don't want to make this into a running topic here, but there is MUCH more to this story than you have read about. If you want to read a bit more about it without going through 3500 posts, take a look at the Solara topic in the couples conference. Within the past 20 posts, I gave some descriptions of what we see at the dealer level with regard to "receipts" for oil changes.
  • subaru_teamsubaru_team Member Posts: 1,676
    While I'd love to contact you off line, I really cannot do that. Anything that I do here is sanctioned by Subaru and "sharing" the "how's and what's, etc." might get me in some hot water. Sorry, I hope you understand ;~}

    Patti
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    cliffy, I don't like #2 on your list here:
    cliffy1 "Toyota Solara--Part 6" Feb 22, 2002 10:57am

    until it was cleaned by dealership technicians working on a recent warranty issue, my engine bay was pretty filthy.

    would a person who has robust documentation from a quick-lube servicer have any troubles getting a sludge problem warrantied? say 4k mile changes, documented history from Jiffy Lube saying what parts were replaced and what brand & grade of oil was used.

    my car also has some modifications. if it had a toyota badge instead of subaru sounds like I would have been paying the bill.

    tyguy: I've read that article. one ASE-certified tech looking at one or even a handful of cars answers nothing really. his comment about oil temp asks a question that later testing might answer.

    -Colin
  • rangerron7rangerron7 Member Posts: 317
    I actually brought this up a couple of weeks ago regarding Patti's participation on the boards and how it was a factor in my decision to buy a second Sube. It is somewhat comforting to know that a SOA representative participates on a regular basis and takes an interest in our ownership experiences. Although I don't anticipate having problems with my dealership regarding my two vehicles, it IS reassuring to know that IF things become difficult, SOA customer service is just a call away and in extreme cases Patti might just keep an eye on it as well.
    I have had 2 bad experiences with domestic manufacturers and dealers and will probably never buy GM again as a result.
    (Long answer to a short question but I just wanted to point out that her involvement here was a factor in my purchase.)
    On another note, I recall reading your posts over on the Prius board about a year ago. I was very impressed with your responses and responsiveness.
    I hope you join us on a regular basis here on the Crew. I enjoyed reading your insights.
    Ron
  • armac13armac13 Member Posts: 1,129
    Patti does have to be careful about what she says and does here at Edmunds. Several times, SoA has locked her in the corporate dungeon for being too cooperative.
    :-)

    Ross
  • hondafriekhondafriek Member Posts: 2,984
    I always adhere to the manufacturers recommended schedule for severe service that way there can be no argument that proper maintenance was not followed.

    Cheers Pat.
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Member Posts: 3,581
    If you did oil changes every 4000 miles, the issue would never come up. Also, whenever oil is changed at a dealer, they hose down the area of the oil filter with brake cleaner to eliminate the over spill, hence, a clean area around the oil filter. Not everybody does that so it is not definitive proof, but that is one thing to look for to see if oil changes have been done.
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Member Posts: 3,581
    ...is exactly what I wanted to hear. My hat's off to Patti. I've been playing around at Edmunds for well over 2 years and have always tried to answer Toyota related questions to the best of my ability. You are all very lucky to have a person with a bit more backing to direct your questions.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Cliffy, no offense but that is one of the biggest BS lines I've ever heard from a dealer. "well the area around the filter and drain plug were dirty so therefore it was not properly maintained" Seems like almost like an infringement of the Moss-something or other act to me. Which clearly states if you have it serviced elsewhere or even do your own oil changes it will NOT void your warranty. :)

    -mike
  • subaru_teamsubaru_team Member Posts: 1,676
    Thanks for your comments. They are welcome and appreciated. I think you should be commended for trying to do something about the Toyota situation. Is your corporate headquarters noticing?

    The thing that I find here is not necessarily buying into the "corporate" line. If something is being said by our folks, I have the luck/ability to question it a bit and to try and make a change. Subaru listens. Maybe your corporate executives should listen to a caring person like yourself. Change can happen, but you have to get the right set of ears.

    This is a great forum. I hope (for your sake and the sake of your customers) that they listen to what you are hearing and appreciate your efforts. I do.

    Patti
  • grahampetersgrahampeters Member Posts: 1,786
    G'day to Steve

    This comment comes from a long distance. I am a regular poster to these boards but live in Australia. I am professionally qualified in marketing and work in the Insurance Industry, dealing wih customer problems every day. This puts some balance on what I percieve, I hope. I stress however that the following comments are my own thoughts and come without endorsement of Subaru or Patti.

    Patti has made clear that whilst she is an employee of SOA, she takes an active interest on the Subaru Crew pages outside of her job, albeit with the tacit knowledge of her employers.

    I see this channel as being a novel, almost unique marketing communication route for a manufacturer/distributor to interact directly with the end user of their product. It gives the manufacturer the chance to hear both the good and the bad points of their product in use. Inevitably when customers concerns or feedback are channelled through the hierarchy at a dealer then regional distribution the message is ditorted and the complaints muted. This alternative is far more direct and gives real news.

    The normal communication routes to SOA are good but sometimes problems arise, as anyone in customer facing roles, will know. Patti will sometimes take a look at a problem raised on these boards, peering politely over a Customer Service Rep's shoulder to ensure a resolution is achieved. It's not heavy handed and she does not take on the rep's role directly. For Subaru Crew members, it's more along the line of "A Friend at the Plant". That's not chasing favours but making sure problems do get sorted to both parties satisfaction. The pay off is in the extraordinary customer loyalty Subaru enjoy.

    From time to time, this has been abused by other posters but the Subaru Crew members are largely self regulating, pointing up the ill manners of these folk, when they become offensive. There are several regular Crew Members with enough gravitas and good sense to calm down most hot-heads. A good forum mediator is a wonderful balance to these pages. I liken it to the kindly bloke who takes the stroppy drunk out the back of the pub and gently points out the facts of life.

    There have been about three real abuses of the goodwill of Patti over the last eigteen months, each apparently motivated by a customer "on the make". These are usually obvious as their complaints look dramatically different to the norm and their expectations run to something unrealistic, like "New for old" replacement on a well worn vehicle. I think Patti may have developed a strategy to deal with these problems, possibly by backing away from these pages for some time. One of the great joys of Chat pages is that you can fade out when you need to.

    As with all manufactured products, Subarus are less than perfect. Regular readers of these pages would know, for example, that some early Foresters may have wheel bearing problems due to incorrect fitment. Other beefs are minor but where there is an obvious problem, Subaru has not sought to deny it, but to address the issue promptly. They have won immense respect for their courage in addressing real concerns as they arise.

    With respect, it sounds like the Toyota sludge problem may be a real problem complicated by issues over customer servicing. There was a similar large scale problem here in Australia a year or two ago. The vehicle manufacturers and oil supplier (the problem only manifested itself under particular conditions of oil type and long service intervals common to some European vehicles) worked to address the problem proactivaley and it rapidly faded from mind for all who were affected.

    It's a matter of knowing when you are losing and getting out before the adverse publicity affects you too badly. There is a lovely earthy Australian phrase for this which loses something in translation - "Get out digger, your dog's pissing on your swag!"

    Cheers

    Graham

    ps Translation service for the Upside Down Folk

    "stroppy" = obstreporous or the sort of bloke who wants to pick a fight with everyone in the pub.

    "Get out digger, your dog's pissing on your swag!" = Keep your mouth shut. Whilst you keep talking, you are missing far more important things going on around you.
  • subaru_teamsubaru_team Member Posts: 1,676
    I'm sure Cliffy will appreciate what you shared! Keep those Austrailian sayings coming. I really enjoy trying to use them in my daily conversations. You can tell if someone is really listening to you by their reactions!

    Thanks!

    Patti
  • storytellerstoryteller Member Posts: 476
    Superb post, Graham, good enough to frame and put on the wall. Your description of the uniqueness of this forum and what it represents is right on. And I can't wait for the chance to say during some committee meeting,"Get out digger, your dog's pissing on your swag!"

    FWIW, the existence of this post, Patti and Subaru's courageous commitment to dialogue with customers is one of the main reasons I've decided to buy a Subaru.

    Finally, congratulations Graham for the accomplishments of Alisa Camplin. To say she represented Australia attractively would be gross understatement.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Of all the "regulars" here, I always look forward to reading Graham's posts, perhaps more so than anyone else. In fact I usually read, and re-read them several times, just to savor the subtle nuances.

    Excellent information and excellent post Graham. However, I'm not surprised...

    :)

    Bob
  • marek6marek6 Member Posts: 2
    I have a new H6-3.0 Outback. Right from the start the VDC and ABS yellow lights come on from time to time. The sensors were checked and replaced. Then I starting feeling a brake shudder and sure enough the front discs were badly grooved and needed replacing ( 9 000Km on the clock). The problem with the dashboard VDC/ABS lights coming on persisted and the computer has now been replaced. At the same time the second pair of front discs had to be replaced. The vehicle now has its 3rd set of front discs and brake pads. I have only 17 000 km's on this car and am concerned. Whenever the VDC/ABS lights came on, I could not feel any change in the cars behaviour. Never was I under the impression that the brakes were engaging and that the pads or discs are wearing. Back discs are fine with no sign of wear. Has anybody experienced something similar? Should I get rid of the car while it is still under guarantee and buy a Volvo V70 xc?
    Regards
    M
  • bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    FWIW, I was speaking with the shop foreman of my dealer service dept. a few months ago about the use of synthetics.

    I was asking about sludge and he said that boxers don't develop a sludge problem as bad as other engine configurations. He has never seen a Subaru with a sludge problem using conventional or synthetic.

    Graham - Excellent post! You really follow these forums closely.

    -Dennis
  • subaru_teamsubaru_team Member Posts: 1,676
    If yes, please call us. This is not a complaint that I've heard much about. The number is 1-800-SUBARU3. We can get involved and see what is going on. If you are not in the U. S., I'd suggest you call your Subaru Distributor and request some technical assistance from their field staff.

    I understand your frustration. I'd feel the same way. I'm sure it can be fixed once and for all if the right folks get involved.

    Thanks.

    Patti
  • chief1989chief1989 Member Posts: 19
    Great post Graham. A lot of what I was thinking, put in writing much better than I could have done. Patti and Cliffy: An interesting dialog here. I too have been impressed with Patti and the work she has done to help others. I realize she does this on her on time-However, Cliffy, myself and others have thoughts of Subaru, Toyota and why not all manufactues having a paid representative on these boards. Why not? Sounds like a great idea for everyone. The only downside I see is that the boards would then become the media used by everyone to lodge their complaints. In many cases that would cause a multitude of problems including a possible flood of complaints that would overwhelm Edmunds and other things like legal restrictions. Well, anyway just my thoughts and if this is more of a problem than it is a solution then let's leave well enough alone. We sure don't want to lose Patti just when I'm buying my first ever Subaru!

    Thanks for listening (reading),

    Jim J.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    In thinking (re-reading) Graham's post, I also think of Mike Smith's posts. Both Graham and Mike are somewhat infrequent posters, however, upon reading their posts, my batteries always get re-charged. Great work guys!

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Or what would I hope and expect them to to?

    Generally you'd hope they'd be proactive, and give customers the benefit of the doubt. I don't think it's wise to get adversarial. I'd believe maybe 10% of the claims are bogus, at most.

    I'd hope to see:

    1. Oil coolers installed for free or at heavy discounts. Maybe free parts, customer pays for labor only, something like that.

    2. Service schedule changed to 3k miles in extreme use, 5k miles otherwise. Maybe let a semi-independent arm like SPT (or TRD) take over making these recommendations.

    3. Recommend synthetics for extreme driving, whether its towing, off roading, or autocross, plus oil changes immediately after severe activities (off roading). They should even make synthetic available at dealerships.

    4. Offer an on-line way to record any maintenance done by outside sources, whether it be Jiffy Lube, the owners themselves, or whatever. Subaru actually already does this (mysubaru.com). That's what I use.

    5. Consider offering free maintenance on future models. Or at least significant discounts. The LL Bean comes with 3 years free service, and Lexus models do, too. Offer incentives for service at dealers.

    6. Offer each customer a tour of the service bay when they buy a car. Show them what exactly gets done, and explain why it's important.

    7. Replace my engine if it was damaged. Sorry, no excuses. This would make or break the manufacturer, in my humble opinion.

    Costs may be high, but what are the costs of not doing anything? Look at it this way, you are car shopping and you see a Kia sedan for $18k, and a Toyota (oops I mean Subaru) sedan for $20k. For now let's assume they are identical in equipment.

    What would you choose? 9/10 consumers would choose the latter. That's the value of the name, it carries a real value, several thousand dollars per car in my opinion.

    So, either address the problem, or chop $2k off the sticker price of every car you sell for the rest of time.

    -juice
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Ditto to Graham's posts -- always well written and fun to read.

    I agree that Patti's presence here is a unique exercise in channel marketing. I haven't seen anything that resembles her interaction from other car companies. I certainly does provide us owners with a sense of community and pride for owning a Subaru. I hope that Patti and Subaru gets as much out of these exchanges as we do.

    One thought I've pondered is if and how this would work with a much larger car company. My guess is that it wouldn't work -- a great resource like Patti would certainly be inundated by sheer numbers of consumers.

    Ken
  • chief1989chief1989 Member Posts: 19
    Juice: Totally on target! FWIW the two main reasons I am buying a Subaru are: The quality of the name brand and the legendary service provided by Subaru as indicated on these boards.

    Jim J.
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Uh oh... you guys need to knock it off. Keep this up and neither Patti's nor Graham's heads are going to fit thru the door! :-)

    -Frank P.
  • armac13armac13 Member Posts: 1,129
    and join the Subaru/Patti cult. LOL This is a special place to be sure. I do think we should stop encouraging Graham and Patti. If we don't, they will just continue. It's sort of like feeding the troll. Wait a sec ... we want them to continue. Delete the previous comment.
    :-)

    Ross
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Member Posts: 3,581
    First, let me ask a product question of Marek6. I'm not familiar with the acronym VDC, but I assume it is some form of traction control or possibly a stability control system. This is something that I have a fair amount of experience with. When you experience these problems, are you on gravel roads or is there possibly loose gravel on a paved road? It is likely that you have an overactive sensor for the traction control. It should engage any time the wheels are about to break traction, but it shouldn't do it enough to warp your rotors.

    Next, thanks to all of you for the input. There are a number of things I would like to say on the topic of what Toyota is looking at, but it really isn't my place to say. I have had a lot of contact with a couple of folks at TMS, and they are reading this thread, as well as several others.

    Finally to Patti, I really wish we could have an off-line and unofficial conversation. I understand why you can't but I'm dying to ask you a few questions that would not be appropriate to publicly post here.
  • rangerron7rangerron7 Member Posts: 317
    Interesting point and so eloquently articulated!
    Ron
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Cliffy- Yes VDC is essentially a 4-wheel traction control currently found only on top-drawer Outbacks. VDC models normally have a 45/55 front-to-rear power split, but it can also direct power to (or way from) any one wheel as is needed.

    Bob
  • bat1161bat1161 Member Posts: 1,784
    I would like to add my appreciation of Patti with the rest. While I have never had the need to contact SOA, or Patti, it is nice to know there is someone who we can turn to who understands us. This site and Patti's monitoring are one of the things I point out to people interested in Subaru.

    Mark
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Member Posts: 3,581
    Sounds like our VSC, although the VSC also has a lateral skid sensor that can largely eliminate understeer and oversteer, as long as you keep your foot off the brakes. They can be a bit sensitive and take some getting used to. Properly used, it is one of the best innovations to come along in years.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    it can detect oversteer and/or understeer, and react accordingly. The '02 VDC models also have an on/off switch too.

    Bob
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Member Posts: 3,581
    I am fairly well enamored with these stability control systems. We have it now on our Sequoia, 4Runner and Land Cruiser and it combines with the 4WD system to make the perfect 4WD system. It doesn't work quite as well in the Highlander because of the viscous coupling center differential, but it is still very slick.

    I wrote a very long essay on Toyota 4WD systems and a lot of it dealt with the interaction of the VSC. You may want to check it out, although I must wan you that a guy named wwest has muddled the topic of late. It is under the SUV conference and is called "Toyota 4WD Systems Explained."
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    One other thing to note about VDC is that it uses Subaru's most sophisticated AWD system: VTD. Think of it as a torsen-type AWD system that has the added bonus of being able to change the power split. I don't think there's a better system out on the market, IMO.

    Ken
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Subaru pitches the VDC as a traction and stability control system integrated with its VTD AWD. It actually allows the AWD to act first, then kicks in when necessary. It manages both axles for side-to-side slip, understeer, and oversteer, like Toyota's VSC.

    I believe the Highlander and RAV4 use a VC, similar to the manual tranny Subarus (except the WRX), like mine. Highlander then offers VSC as a stand alone option.

    I have a question about the VC+VSC systems Toyota uses, for you, Cliffy. A few folks here attended the BMW Ultimat Driving Event, and they put an X5 up against a Lexus RX300. They drove both up one of those ramps that test traction to each individual wheel. The RX did not make it all the way up, though I suspect BMW may have been cheating, perhaps switching VSC off.

    Do you know if Lexus has conducted this test themselves? I left the event very suspicious that they were cheating. The BMW also won a slalom race, but later I noticed the RX's tires were bald.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    only uses viscous couplings on their manual transmission models. The front-to-rear power split on those is normally 50/50, again changing as driving conditions dictate.

    The WRX automatic also uses the VDT (but not VDC) that Ken mentioned, again with a 45/55 front to rear power split. All other Subaru automatics use an electronic clutch pack, with a normal front-to-rear power split of 90/10 (there is some debate as to whether it is actually 80/20, rather than 90/10), again changing as driving needs dictate.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    VTD isn't really like a torsen, though, which is reactionary. VTD starts at 45/55 and proactively shifts torque using inputs like throttle position and steering input.

    I have a VC and it works great, but VTD gets my nod for Subaru's best AWD system.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    My understanding (I think I'm correct here) is that most Subaru automatics—while normally a 90/10 front-to-rear power split, actually start off from a dead stop using a 50/50 power split in both first and second gears, then switch to the 90/10 split for gears three and four.

    Guys, correct me if I'm wrong here.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Interesting, I may read up on that topic you mentioned. Subaru didn't put their stability and traction control on any VC model yet, and may not. Lots of us wonder if it's cost effective for them to have 3 completely different systems.

    If the SC+TC spreads throughout the lineup, we may see fewer and fewer VC models in the Subaru lineup.

    -juice
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Member Posts: 3,581
    I've made a point to learn as much as possible about Toyota systems, but haven't really looked at Subaru. The whole VC thing still baffles me a bit because it never seems to behave like the literature describes. In a perfect world, VSC and a VC would actually work against each other (more precisely, the traction control portion of VSC).

    Juice, in answer to your question, I have never seen a Highlander or RX300 (twins) on a traction hill test. I do know that many manufacturers, including Toyota always try to demonstrate their systems in such a way that the competition fails. That's pretty common. When I worked for Isuzu, they had test set up that highlighted the good parts of the Rodeo and Trooper but hid some of the shortcomings. To the salesmen present, it was an effective way to pump them up.
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Wait, now I'm getting confused. VTD is an electronically controlled hydraulic transfer clutch that works with a planetary gear-type center differential to control power distribution.

    Isn't a torsen differential based on planetary gears? So, is it incorrect to describe VTD as a torsen-type AWD system with the added ability to change power splits using the electronic clutch?

    Ken
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    for pointing out that Toyota 4WD thread. It was an interesting; and amazing you were able to, for the most part, keep it on topic.

    The reason I mention that is because I started a topic over in the Pickup area not too long ago: "Have we reached the upper limit in pickup size." My feeling is that full-size pickups just keep getting larger with each new generation, and I was trying generate a discussion on that. Well it turns out to have evolved into another "Tundra vs. Detroit" discussion. It's hard to keep these discussions on track... You've done a good job there.

    Bob
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