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Comments
Paul
The only difficulty I have is one recent member who owns an RX300 and has more time on his hands than I do.
First - Congrats to all of our northern friends. Canada definitely wanted that game more than the USA. I have no problem losing to Canada.
Sludge - Using Mobil 1 on my V6 Sienna. Not worried. BTW, no way any dealer cleans up the engine better than me during an oil change.
Cliffy - you mentioned Trooper. Watch out, here comes Mike. ;-)
Front brakes - there are a couple of posts stating rotor warpage when new. I am one of them, and believe it is from overtorqueing the lug nuts. Everything is fine now.
Patti - what more can be said. We Love You! (especially in high heels)
Got to wash both cars this weekend. Feel much better. Those therapy sessions are great.
Greg
Patti
It's very frustrating. I'm sure you know who I'm talking about.
Bob
Now for the wet blanket... When reading these Subaru posts I'm not particularly interested in reading about gas-guzzling road-hogging SUVs like Troopers (sorry Paisan) and Explorers. I'm now getting the impression that we will now be subjected to continual (not particularly subliminal) Toyota sales pitches (sorry cliffy1) that we could just as readily read for ourselves at the various Toyota-oriented Edmunds forums.
Don't get me wrong. I've owned a Toyota and probably will again at some point. It's just that it's hard enough keeping up with all the Subaru posts if I miss a day or two. I try to keep "spyware" out of my computer using Ad-aware software. Why am I getting the impression that cliffy1 has been planted here?
As to Cliffy, I wouldn't be too worried. We know what we're driving. Besides, variety of discussion is good, even if we do drift off-topic from time-to-time.
Bob
Cliffy, what about a viscous coupling baffles you? Maybe I can weigh in with some input.
Craig
except that normal cars come with a pretty slippy VC to allow proper wheel motion in all conditions and long life, and torque converters are tight to get better gas mileage and low rpm starts.
-Colin
-mike
-mike
I implore you - have no direct contact with Cliffy1! I have it on good authority that he is really a "pod person" sent by the "Body Snatchers" at Toyota. Their reputation irreparably sullied by sludge and other devious acts, Cliffy has been programmed and sent on a mission to destroy 'truth, justice, and the Subaru way'. Remember the vampire tales? By giving him your e-mail address, you will 'let him in to your home', rendering you powerless to resist his evil.
His mission? Simple. Destroy or Convert:
Worst Case Scenario - He brings sorrow to you, your husband, or daughters, thereby distracting you from your job at Subaru and these boards. Deprived of your services, SoA begins a death spiral and eventually implodes.
Best Case (for you, not us) - He is actually a head hunter, bringing you an offer of 3x your current salary to join 'The Dark Side'. Unable to resist the spell, you leave Cherry Hill for California, and lead Toyota on a PR renaissance. Within three years Toyota becomes the #1 automaker in America, the big three are destroyed, plunging the nation into a deep economic depression.
Or maybe I have just been watching too much "X-Files" ?? Oh, look at the time - late for my meds....
Steve
Barry- Don't take offense that others disagree with your wet blanket comments. I too have found it frustrating to be absent for a few days only to discover on my return that I'm behind by well over a hundred posts. Of course I'm as guilty as anyone of occassionally veering off topic ;-)
-Frank P.
KarenS
Host
Owners Clubs
And speaking of being off topic...has anyone taken a look at Edmunds new pricing info pages? We would love to hear your comments! Post them in New Edmunds Pricing Info Pages: Give Us Your Feedback!.
Thanks!
KarenS
Host
Owners Clubs
Finally, sometimes there is not much if anything to say with the topic on hand. I find an interesting discussion, even if it's off-topic, to be preferable than no discussion at all. Besides, we always, sooner or later, get back on track.
Bob
I found an FHI/Subaru technical write-up on VDC/VTD while doing a search on google.com. It's from the Seoul 2000 FISITA World Automotive Congress.
It's in PDF format here:
http://210.101.116.115/fisita/pdf/G347.pdf
-Dennis
I liked the original (years ago) because it listed the equipment that each model added to the base models. L has this. GT adds that. GT Limited further adds that. And so on. I liked that system.
The previous one was harder to read, listing each model separately, but to compare two models you had to look at both of them.
The new one I haven't had enough time to look at yet, but I hope it's more user friendly, like the original was.
Let's see, torsen vs. VTD. Without getting into the internals, a torque sening differential reacts to the amount of grip it feels, though quickly and with little power loss. The achilles heel is frictionless surfaces - you're toast on black ice.
VTD is IMHO more sophisticated. Because it takes various inputs (throttle position, speed, steering angle, etc), it can predict and proactively prevent slippage.
Say your pulling a boat up a ramp. Extremely slippery with algae and quite steep, with a heavy load to pull. VTD already knows you're on an incline and has sent the power to the rear wheels, where 80-90% of the weight is resting.
A torsen would start at whatever the default power split was, then react, probably with some front wheel spin.
We went with some friends to Lake Anna and he had a pair of Wave Runners (fun!), and it was pretty hilarious to watch him pull both of those out in his Prelude (FWD of course). Scared a few children, put it that way.
-juice
Also, have no fear of me stealing Patti. Actually, all I wanted from her was some advice.
I hate to tell you all this, but I'm going to stick around here. The place has a nice atmosphere. I'll probably still bring up Toyotas, because that is what I know best. I have no intention of trying to convert anybody. From what I have seen so far, I know that would be a futile effort anyway. Besides that, I'm not a salesman any more and Edmunds frowns on (actually bans) solicitation.
:-)
-juice
Now, on to the viscous coupling question. Here is my problem: I know how it is supposed to work. Depending on the car, you have a power split (50-50 with Toyota I'm told). If one of the front tires begins to slip, the viscous fluid reacts to the excess spinning by firming up, thereby transferring more power to the rear.
This makes perfect sense. What doesn't make sense is that I have heard of a couple of demonstrations where this does not happen. One member in the 4WD topic even claims he put his RX300 on a 4 wheel dyno and found most of the power biased toward the wheels with least resistance. Apparently Mercedes put an RX300 on a hill with rollers to demonstrate that power did not get routed to the rear wheels. That all runs contrary to what I know of viscous coupling center differentials.
-mike
This demonstration clearly showed that if 3 wheels have no traction, power is fed to the one wheel with traction, which will then move the vehicle forward. The Lexus did have VCS (or whatever Lexus call it). I don't know whether it can be turned off or not, as the Subaru VDC can, however.
IIRC, they said, besides the BMW, the only other vehicles to pass this test were the HUMMER, the Jeep Grand Cherokee (with Quadra Drive), and the ML Mercedes. I don't remember if Land Rover or Range Rover were mentioned, or if I left any others out. I know the list was short, however. They did say the Subaru VDC failed the test too. So did the Audi A4 Quattro, which they demonstrated.
Bob
I wonder how the Quadra Drive JGC passed it cause I don't think it has a front LSD or Traction control. Theoretically the VDC should pass it though.
-mike
any AWD / 4WD vehicle with sufficiently advanced traction control can do it.
any AWD / 4WD vehicle with 3 LSDs does it natively, nothing extra required. mechanical clutch-type LSDs make it work better in very low traction environments though.
-Colin
My dad had a fleet of Land Cruisers in Belize, but they were very much the real deal SUV: diesel, 5 speed manual, vinyl seats, no nonsense. UN-spec, straight from the factory with semi-knobby tires on steel rims.
There is one other Teixeira at the World Bank. It's a portuguese name so your customer was most likely Brazilian or Portuguese.
About that dyno test - I'm thinking it was the open differentials that caused that to happen? I'd bet that model didn't have the optional LSD or the VSC (or it was switched off).
Bob: I said BMW, didn't I?
Isuzus have no down fall, they are perfect! The poor gas mileage is good for Exxon profits and helps the economy! The boxy aerodynamics are great for all the cars behind paisan because a) noone can get in front of him he drives so fast and b) it creates an efficient draft for all the cars that follow, effectively increasing the WAFE (World Average Fuel Economy). It's not an old design, it's venerable, tried-and-true. Soccer moms that drive SUVs should stick with live axles because those soccer fields can get treacherous when it rains! Even if they don't use the low range they can brag about having more forward ratios than that pesky teenager with his slammed Civic, not to mention they have the ground clearance and angles of approach and departure to drive OVER his Civic.
Like I said, the perfect vehicle! ;-)
-juice
Bob
It seemed like he was implying a dowfall of the 4wd system in off-road situations or some other AWD/4WD downfall, and I'd like to know what it is so I can compensate for it!
I actually really like the last gen FZJ80s before the current gens, but used they are like $25K!
-mike
My dad's TLCs were fantastic. Outside, you'd hear diesel clatter, but inside it was whisper quiet. It basically had a hose-out interior, too. Now that is a sportsman's truck.
-juice
-mike
-juice
-mike
I think if I had to have an SUV and could justify it a TLC is what I'd get, but the increase in their pricing has far outstripped what you get in the vehicle. A stripped diesel TLC like juice's father had would bring the vehicle back to its roots and to affordability. I'd consider a nice used FJ62 or even FJ60, actually - the period at which the TLC was on the cusp of rugged utility with panache and overpadded sub/urban image vehicle.
I've actually web surfed sites like Cool Cruisers and I can't get over the prices they're charging for "refurbished" and tarted-up FJ40/55/60/62s.
Ed
This will kill you, so skip if you like the Land Cruiser, but my dad paid about $18,000 for his. You have to add shipping costs, insurance, and he actually bought all the parts from a tune-up kit Toyota offers for 3rd world countries (where parts are hard to come by). Still, it was well under $25k delivered, about half what it costs here.
We tried to order one for the US, but no luck. The program is for latin america only, and even then you basicaly have to be a diplomat.
-juice
I don't want to see Subaru compete with the "big boys," but I think a Subaru interpretation of the old Land Cruiser would be perfect. As more and more trucks and SUVs become more car-like, I really think there is a market for a hard-core off-roader, much like the old FJ Land Cruisers.
For years I've believed it could work with IFS and IRS. If Subaru were to develop a 3.0 turbo-diesel H-4 engine (Nissan has a 3.0 4-cylinder diesel in Australia), with large diameter tires, their dual range AWD—but with true deep low gearing... Sort of a 1/3 scale Unimog-type of vehicle.
Oh well, at least I can dream...
Bob
-mike
-mike
Even the Baja fits into this thinking. If people cross shop crew cabs and choose the Baja, it will be because it's the most car-like option.
Plus they haven't ever made a truck. That should be left up to Isuzu (big) and Suzuki (small).
-juice
The most popular Subaru in Australia is the Forester. Think if they offered a true, hard-core off-roader in that market. I think it would be a huge (for Subaru) success down under.
Bob
In the US it's seen a recreational activity, guys go out and try to find the hardest obstacles, rocks, etc. to climb over around through, etc. Outside the US IRS and IFS work well because most of the offroading is more like rough-road driving than rock crawling/leisure. In africa an off-road drive might be something like driving from NY->DC via a dirt road with bumps and hills and rocks, but not a trail-per-say with as many obsticles as you can put on it.
For instance most of the australian off-road catalogs that I deal with through ECB all involve things like skid plates, extended range fuel tanks, snorkels, stiffer springs/shocks, small lifts, repair kits for on-road repairs, storage baskets, and protection from hitting wild animals and being able to get your vehicle to the next town (sometimes 100+ miles away) after hitting such a beast. A good off-road vehicle in Australia is an extremely reliable, rugged vehicle. Here a good off-road vehicle doesn't need to be reliable, you are generally out there with you buddies and can be towed home, and for ruggedness if something breaks, same thing, you don't NEED to get anywhere with your truck since it's seen as a leisure activity, rather than a necessity.
-mike
It's a high-ticket luxury off-roader, that perhaps most owners will never ever tap its off-road capability. The point I'm making is: MB must feel there is a market for such a vehicle, and that it won't compromise their ML sales.
As I said, I do think as more and more SUVs become more car-like, the market for true hard-core off-roaders becomes larger. Whether Subaru wants to enter it is another question...
Bob
I like paisan's idea - offer a Forester model better suited for that type of driving, like Jeep did with the new Rubicon model.
Give it taller springs, bigger tires, skid plates, and a low range. Maybe a front LSD. This could be very cheap to do - mostly parts bin or existing aftermarket stuff. Call it the Forester Sport, maybe.
I've spent time in Brazil, Belize, and Suriname, and I can tell you that it's not about recreational off roading there. It's about making it through dirt roads, beaches, and muddy trails. So ground clearance and durability, plus skid plate protection, is what matters.
Even in the cities, pot holes are big enough to eat entire cars. Suspension travel and a tolerant ride for the bumps is important. Gas mileage, too, make that diesel actually because it costs half as much.
-juice
<< But distribution costs are prohibitive for a tiny make like Subaru in those regions. >>
If Subaru is already in those markets, I don't think it's that big a deal. I don't think Subaru (FHI) is as tiny as you think. If Isuzu and Mitsubishi can do it, I think Subaru can.
Bob
-mike
It's ironic because the extra ground clearance and AWD (with good gas mileage a must) is exactly what most folks there need. But import duties fluctuate so it's risky unless FHI built a plant in Brazil. Mercedes (A-class), Honda (Civic) and Toyota (Corolla) have, just recently. VW, Ford, Fiat, and GM have been there for decades. Isuzu and Mitsubishi are basically nonexistent.
I think the Pleo and the Outback Sport could sell well there, as well as the Forester, and maybe the Outback as a full-fledged luxury car (for that market, remember). But currently the Forester and Outback are at near luxury prices.
Subaru needs to assemble cars locally to sell them in those markets.
-juice
Bob