Subaru Crew - Meet The Members II

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Comments

  • rbstechrbstech Member Posts: 5
    The 5 spd maual transmission is only available on the base XLS, However I have been trying to determine if the 4wd system is the same as in the auto transmision. (i.e. with an Auto mode) The explorer that was reviewed by edmunds was given good marks for behaving like an AWD vehicle.

    Paul
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Member Posts: 3,581
    Topic drift is difficult in anything related to trucks. I gave up posting at any Tundra topic because of the behavior of the Toyota v. domestic crowd. This stinks because I actually own a Tundra.

    The only difficulty I have is one recent member who owns an RX300 and has more time on his hands than I do.
  • nygregnygreg Member Posts: 1,936
    Miss a couple of days and your reading for hours. OK,

    First - Congrats to all of our northern friends. Canada definitely wanted that game more than the USA. I have no problem losing to Canada.

    Sludge - Using Mobil 1 on my V6 Sienna. Not worried. BTW, no way any dealer cleans up the engine better than me during an oil change. :)

    Cliffy - you mentioned Trooper. Watch out, here comes Mike. ;-)

    Front brakes - there are a couple of posts stating rotor warpage when new. I am one of them, and believe it is from overtorqueing the lug nuts. Everything is fine now.

    Patti - what more can be said. We Love You! (especially in high heels)

    Got to wash both cars this weekend. Feel much better. Those therapy sessions are great.

    Greg
  • cptpltcptplt Member Posts: 1,075
    interesting to see Toyotas view, GMs view must be the more the mess the better because the Chevy dealer who does my wifes Venture always leaves some oil dripping off somewhere under the engine (and no its not a leak!)
  • subaru_teamsubaru_team Member Posts: 1,676
    When we get to do product comparisons, they put them through the courses, but then they let us try to find "flaws" ourselves. I really preferred our VDC over the set up in the Volvo, BMW and Mercedes because it was a lot less "intrusive" in the way it felt to me. More active systems can be better for some, but I like that AWD and ABS act first, then the VDC. Just my opinion.

    Patti
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I know what you mean. There are several guys who absolutely refuse—I mean ABSOLUTELY REFUSE to believe that the Tundra is a full-size truck. They swear the Dakota is the Tundra's "true" competitor; not the F-150, Silverado, or Ram. There's no convincing them otherwise...

    It's very frustrating. I'm sure you know who I'm talking about.

    Bob
  • blaneblane Member Posts: 2,017
    OK. I'll admit it. I don't post here often, but am an avid reader of all of the Subaru Crew forums. I'm specifically interested in anything new about the Legacy line, as when there is a significant new model available (B4, etc.) I'll probably consider a swap for my '96 GT.

    Now for the wet blanket... When reading these Subaru posts I'm not particularly interested in reading about gas-guzzling road-hogging SUVs like Troopers (sorry Paisan) and Explorers. I'm now getting the impression that we will now be subjected to continual (not particularly subliminal) Toyota sales pitches (sorry cliffy1) that we could just as readily read for ourselves at the various Toyota-oriented Edmunds forums.

    Don't get me wrong. I've owned a Toyota and probably will again at some point. It's just that it's hard enough keeping up with all the Subaru posts if I miss a day or two. I try to keep "spyware" out of my computer using Ad-aware software. Why am I getting the impression that cliffy1 has been planted here?
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I see Edmunds just closed that topic I just referred to because of trolls. There must be a better way of dealing with obnoxious people other than closing a topic...

    As to Cliffy, I wouldn't be too worried. We know what we're driving. Besides, variety of discussion is good, even if we do drift off-topic from time-to-time.

    Bob
  • lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    Several folks here have multiple makes in the garage. Well except me anyways. If after 2 days we're not back on topic, then I'll start to fret.
  • c_hunterc_hunter Member Posts: 4,487
    He knows cars and has contributed good comments and suggestions in some of the other Subaru forums here. It doesn't bother me if he advocates Toyotas or SUVs. It's good to get outside views from time to time.

    Cliffy, what about a viscous coupling baffles you? Maybe I can weigh in with some input.

    Craig
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    a viscous coupling works a lot like a torque converter. the viscous fluid is about the same thing-- when you have a lot of shearing, it increases the viscosity of the fluid and decreases slippage.

    except that normal cars come with a pretty slippy VC to allow proper wheel motion in all conditions and long life, and torque converters are tight to get better gas mileage and low rpm starts.

    -Colin
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Yes, we should stick our heads into the SOA sand and just go on and on about how great our subarus are, never looking at or discussing anything but subarus. :)

    -mike
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Just curious what shortcomings you were referring to on the Rodeo and Trooper. (I had a '97 Rodeo and own an '00 Trooper) Feel free to e-mail me off-line if you want so as not to offend anyone here about not being subaru only topic.

    -mike
  • marek6marek6 Member Posts: 2
    I had the VDC/ABS dashboard lights come on when going over a tarred and even surface. No loose gravel on the road and although the road had some long sweeping bends in them, at no stage was the speed high enough that I felt traction would be lost. In contrast: I do a lot of dirt tracks and will have the yellow VDC icon on the dash come on, telling me the VDC system has kicked in. The icon lights will go off/fade, once the slippery part has been negotiated, and everything goes back to normal. I have not had the VDC/ABS lights come again since the computer has been changed and the front discs have been replaced for the second time. Holding thumbs that things will remain normal, as it has been unpredictable when the VDC/ABS lights would come on.
  • fibber2fibber2 Member Posts: 3,786
    Danger, Will Robinson!!!!
    I implore you - have no direct contact with Cliffy1! I have it on good authority that he is really a "pod person" sent by the "Body Snatchers" at Toyota. Their reputation irreparably sullied by sludge and other devious acts, Cliffy has been programmed and sent on a mission to destroy 'truth, justice, and the Subaru way'. Remember the vampire tales? By giving him your e-mail address, you will 'let him in to your home', rendering you powerless to resist his evil.

    His mission? Simple. Destroy or Convert:

    Worst Case Scenario - He brings sorrow to you, your husband, or daughters, thereby distracting you from your job at Subaru and these boards. Deprived of your services, SoA begins a death spiral and eventually implodes.

    Best Case (for you, not us) - He is actually a head hunter, bringing you an offer of 3x your current salary to join 'The Dark Side'. Unable to resist the spell, you leave Cherry Hill for California, and lead Toyota on a PR renaissance. Within three years Toyota becomes the #1 automaker in America, the big three are destroyed, plunging the nation into a deep economic depression.

    Or maybe I have just been watching too much "X-Files" ?? Oh, look at the time - late for my meds....

    Steve
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Steve- ROTFLOL!

    Barry- Don't take offense that others disagree with your wet blanket comments. I too have found it frustrating to be absent for a few days only to discover on my return that I'm behind by well over a hundred posts. Of course I'm as guilty as anyone of occassionally veering off topic ;-)

    -Frank P.
  • Karen_SKaren_S Member Posts: 5,092
    You can write a review thru the "Used" pages also. Were you doing this thru the "New" section?

    KarenS
    Host
    Owners Clubs
  • Karen_SKaren_S Member Posts: 5,092
    In Owners Clubs/Meet the Members discussions are not necessarily topic-oriented, so you won't hear me harping about it in this discussion.

    And speaking of being off topic...has anyone taken a look at Edmunds new pricing info pages? We would love to hear your comments! Post them in New Edmunds Pricing Info Pages: Give Us Your Feedback!.

    Thanks!

    KarenS
    Host
    Owners Clubs
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Of all the topics in any one Owner's Club area, I think the "Meet the Members" forum allows for the most leeway in terms of "topic-drift."

    Finally, sometimes there is not much if anything to say with the topic on hand. I find an interesting discussion, even if it's off-topic, to be preferable than no discussion at all. Besides, we always, sooner or later, get back on track.

    Bob
  • bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    As usual, Patti is being very modest in post 7655. SoA put on a demonstration for Dealers at Flemington Raceway (NJ) when the VDC came out. The VDC more than held it's own against the competition. IMO, they should make it an infomercial and watch Subaru steal sales from those luxury cars.

    I found an FHI/Subaru technical write-up on VDC/VTD while doing a search on google.com. It's from the Seoul 2000 FISITA World Automotive Congress.
    It's in PDF format here:
    http://210.101.116.115/fisita/pdf/G347.pdf

    -Dennis
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I gotta get used to Edmunds' new look.

    I liked the original (years ago) because it listed the equipment that each model added to the base models. L has this. GT adds that. GT Limited further adds that. And so on. I liked that system.

    The previous one was harder to read, listing each model separately, but to compare two models you had to look at both of them.

    The new one I haven't had enough time to look at yet, but I hope it's more user friendly, like the original was.

    Let's see, torsen vs. VTD. Without getting into the internals, a torque sening differential reacts to the amount of grip it feels, though quickly and with little power loss. The achilles heel is frictionless surfaces - you're toast on black ice.

    VTD is IMHO more sophisticated. Because it takes various inputs (throttle position, speed, steering angle, etc), it can predict and proactively prevent slippage.

    Say your pulling a boat up a ramp. Extremely slippery with algae and quite steep, with a heavy load to pull. VTD already knows you're on an incline and has sent the power to the rear wheels, where 80-90% of the weight is resting.

    A torsen would start at whatever the default power split was, then react, probably with some front wheel spin.

    We went with some friends to Lake Anna and he had a pair of Wave Runners (fun!), and it was pretty hilarious to watch him pull both of those out in his Prelude (FWD of course). Scared a few children, put it that way.

    -juice
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Member Posts: 3,581
    You guys are too much. I really will try to keep any comments I have related in some way to Subaru. The reason I jumped into this topic was because it is not model or problem specific. I wanted to meet the members and nothing more. I did make a couple of posts in the maintenance board, but that was to try to answer a maintenance question.

    Also, have no fear of me stealing Patti. Actually, all I wanted from her was some advice.

    I hate to tell you all this, but I'm going to stick around here. The place has a nice atmosphere. I'll probably still bring up Toyotas, because that is what I know best. I have no intention of trying to convert anybody. From what I have seen so far, I know that would be a futile effort anyway. Besides that, I'm not a salesman any more and Edmunds frowns on (actually bans) solicitation.
  • storytellerstoryteller Member Posts: 476
    Speaking for myself, welcome cliffy. Talk about anything you want. There is no paranoia about Toyota here, even though we know WHO makes those black helicopters that the UN flies.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'm cool with it. Actually I find it quite flattering, to be 100% honest.

    :-)

    -juice
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Member Posts: 3,581
    I didn't realize we were neighbors. I fish Lake Anna about 7 or 8 times a year. I also recently settled a deal for a couple with your same last name. You don't have any relatives in this area who recently bought a Sequoia do you?

    Now, on to the viscous coupling question. Here is my problem: I know how it is supposed to work. Depending on the car, you have a power split (50-50 with Toyota I'm told). If one of the front tires begins to slip, the viscous fluid reacts to the excess spinning by firming up, thereby transferring more power to the rear.

    This makes perfect sense. What doesn't make sense is that I have heard of a couple of demonstrations where this does not happen. One member in the 4WD topic even claims he put his RX300 on a 4 wheel dyno and found most of the power biased toward the wheels with least resistance. Apparently Mercedes put an RX300 on a hill with rollers to demonstrate that power did not get routed to the rear wheels. That all runs contrary to what I know of viscous coupling center differentials.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Still curious about the downfalls of my Isuzus :)

    -mike
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Like juice, I too saw that demonstration, except it was with BMW, not Mercedes. The RX300 did not make it up the hill, whereas the BMW X-5 did.

    This demonstration clearly showed that if 3 wheels have no traction, power is fed to the one wheel with traction, which will then move the vehicle forward. The Lexus did have VCS (or whatever Lexus call it). I don't know whether it can be turned off or not, as the Subaru VDC can, however.

    IIRC, they said, besides the BMW, the only other vehicles to pass this test were the HUMMER, the Jeep Grand Cherokee (with Quadra Drive), and the ML Mercedes. I don't remember if Land Rover or Range Rover were mentioned, or if I left any others out. I know the list was short, however. They did say the Subaru VDC failed the test too. So did the Audi A4 Quattro, which they demonstrated.

    Bob
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Wouldn't any vehicle with an LSD be able to do the 3 wheel trick? Although I guess if the one wheel was a front wheel it wouldn't, w/o a front LSD.

    I wonder how the Quadra Drive JGC passed it cause I don't think it has a front LSD or Traction control. Theoretically the VDC should pass it though.

    -mike
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    paisan,

    any AWD / 4WD vehicle with sufficiently advanced traction control can do it.

    any AWD / 4WD vehicle with 3 LSDs does it natively, nothing extra required. mechanical clutch-type LSDs make it work better in very low traction environments though.

    -Colin
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Nope, nice truck, though. Any chance you could get me, say, a $10,000 rebate on one of those Sequoias? ;-)

    My dad had a fleet of Land Cruisers in Belize, but they were very much the real deal SUV: diesel, 5 speed manual, vinyl seats, no nonsense. UN-spec, straight from the factory with semi-knobby tires on steel rims.

    There is one other Teixeira at the World Bank. It's a portuguese name so your customer was most likely Brazilian or Portuguese.

    About that dyno test - I'm thinking it was the open differentials that caused that to happen? I'd bet that model didn't have the optional LSD or the VSC (or it was switched off).

    Bob: I said BMW, didn't I?


    Isuzus have no down fall, they are perfect! The poor gas mileage is good for Exxon profits and helps the economy! The boxy aerodynamics are great for all the cars behind paisan because a) noone can get in front of him he drives so fast and b) it creates an efficient draft for all the cars that follow, effectively increasing the WAFE (World Average Fuel Economy). It's not an old design, it's venerable, tried-and-true. Soccer moms that drive SUVs should stick with live axles because those soccer fields can get treacherous when it rains! Even if they don't use the low range they can brag about having more forward ratios than that pesky teenager with his slammed Civic, not to mention they have the ground clearance and angles of approach and departure to drive OVER his Civic.

    Like I said, the perfect vehicle! ;-)



    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    yes you did say BMW. Cliffy made reference to Mercedes. They too may have conducted a similar test.

    Bob
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Nice Juice!

    It seemed like he was implying a dowfall of the 4wd system in off-road situations or some other AWD/4WD downfall, and I'd like to know what it is so I can compensate for it! :)

    I actually really like the last gen FZJ80s before the current gens, but used they are like $25K! :(

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I guess for Isuzu it's the open front differential. They don't have a way to manage the front axle, right?

    My dad's TLCs were fantastic. Outside, you'd hear diesel clatter, but inside it was whisper quiet. It basically had a hose-out interior, too. Now that is a sportsman's truck.

    -juice
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Yeah most likely you are correct Juice. The front is an open diffy. Luckily I can get a front LSD for it from the factory after the fact :) It happens that the front axle uses the isuzu 10-bolt corp front diffy, which is the same as the isuzu 10-bolt corp rear diffy gears found in the isuzu impulse. I will most likely do this upgrade at some point.

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    If you have the rear LSD then you'd be all set.

    -juice
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    All Isuzus have rear LSD on them from 00->present

    :)

    -mike
  • lark6lark6 Member Posts: 2,565
    I don't consider my Forester an SUV no matter how it's marketed, but if you don't count it the SUV I have spent the most time driving is the FZJ80. A friend of mine owns one as does a cousin. Both live in urban areas and have absolutely no need for them.

    I think if I had to have an SUV and could justify it a TLC is what I'd get, but the increase in their pricing has far outstripped what you get in the vehicle. A stripped diesel TLC like juice's father had would bring the vehicle back to its roots and to affordability. I'd consider a nice used FJ62 or even FJ60, actually - the period at which the TLC was on the cusp of rugged utility with panache and overpadded sub/urban image vehicle.

    I've actually web surfed sites like Cool Cruisers and I can't get over the prices they're charging for "refurbished" and tarted-up FJ40/55/60/62s.

    Ed
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I forgot the most important plus: the Jackaroo name used in Australia! ;-)

    This will kill you, so skip if you like the Land Cruiser, but my dad paid about $18,000 for his. You have to add shipping costs, insurance, and he actually bought all the parts from a tune-up kit Toyota offers for 3rd world countries (where parts are hard to come by). Still, it was well under $25k delivered, about half what it costs here.

    We tried to order one for the US, but no luck. The program is for latin america only, and even then you basicaly have to be a diplomat.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I would LOVE to see Subaru branch out, especially into "true-traditional" 4WDs.

    I don't want to see Subaru compete with the "big boys," but I think a Subaru interpretation of the old Land Cruiser would be perfect. As more and more trucks and SUVs become more car-like, I really think there is a market for a hard-core off-roader, much like the old FJ Land Cruisers.

    For years I've believed it could work with IFS and IRS. If Subaru were to develop a 3.0 turbo-diesel H-4 engine (Nissan has a 3.0 4-cylinder diesel in Australia), with large diameter tires, their dual range AWD—but with true deep low gearing... Sort of a 1/3 scale Unimog-type of vehicle.

    Oh well, at least I can dream...

    Bob
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    In MY 2004 will be offering their SUVs and/or Pickups with Isuzu Diesel engines. 4.0 and 5.0l Turbo Diesels :) I'm sure the price will be a premium though :(

    -mike
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Bob, I think the market for such a vehicle is sooooo small that it's not worth their effort. I run in off-road circles with my Trooper, and for them it's a hobby, not just a "let's go buy a pre-built trail rig" they actually enjoy modifying it and welding on solid axles, and swapping out different front and rear diffy, etc. The best thing I think they cold do with a forester would be to have extremely long travel suspensions, a true low-range gearing, hack off the front and rear bumpers, put in a rear locker, and front LSD and that would be about as close as they could come to a true off-roader. Unfortunately it would still not be bought by the Red-neck off-roaders who barely accept any Japanese trucks and certainly frown on independent suspensions due to their limitations in rock-crawling situations.

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I dunno, Bob, that would really cloud their identity in the USA. People choose the Outback or Forester over alternatives because they are more civil, comfy and efficient, user friendly. A Unimoggy would pretty much be the opposite.

    Even the Baja fits into this thinking. If people cross shop crew cabs and choose the Baja, it will be because it's the most car-like option.

    Plus they haven't ever made a truck. That should be left up to Isuzu (big) and Suzuki (small).

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    not just the United States, but world-wide. Once you get out of the United States, off-roaders are (or at least seem) much more open to new ideas, such as IFS & IRS. A properly engineered vehicle like I suggest I think would be be very popular in Africa, Australia, etc. That's where the "true" market for this type of vehicle is. If it works there, then see if there is a market for it here.

    The most popular Subaru in Australia is the Forester. Think if they offered a true, hard-core off-roader in that market. I think it would be a huge (for Subaru) success down under.

    Bob
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Here are the major differences in Off-roading in the US v. World-wide.

    In the US it's seen a recreational activity, guys go out and try to find the hardest obstacles, rocks, etc. to climb over around through, etc. Outside the US IRS and IFS work well because most of the offroading is more like rough-road driving than rock crawling/leisure. In africa an off-road drive might be something like driving from NY->DC via a dirt road with bumps and hills and rocks, but not a trail-per-say with as many obsticles as you can put on it.

    For instance most of the australian off-road catalogs that I deal with through ECB all involve things like skid plates, extended range fuel tanks, snorkels, stiffer springs/shocks, small lifts, repair kits for on-road repairs, storage baskets, and protection from hitting wild animals and being able to get your vehicle to the next town (sometimes 100+ miles away) after hitting such a beast. A good off-road vehicle in Australia is an extremely reliable, rugged vehicle. Here a good off-road vehicle doesn't need to be reliable, you are generally out there with you buddies and can be towed home, and for ruggedness if something breaks, same thing, you don't NEED to get anywhere with your truck since it's seen as a leisure activity, rather than a necessity.

    -mike
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    As most of you know, MB is finally bring the MB G-wagon over here. This is a hard-core off-roader originally designed for the Shah of Iran, before he got disposed. MB then put it into production and primarily marketed it to the military and 3rd-world markets. Now they've brought it over here.

    It's a high-ticket luxury off-roader, that perhaps most owners will never ever tap its off-road capability. The point I'm making is: MB must feel there is a market for such a vehicle, and that it won't compromise their ML sales.

    As I said, I do think as more and more SUVs become more car-like, the market for true hard-core off-roaders becomes larger. Whether Subaru wants to enter it is another question...

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    But distribution costs are prohibitive for a tiny make like Subaru in those regions.

    I like paisan's idea - offer a Forester model better suited for that type of driving, like Jeep did with the new Rubicon model.

    Give it taller springs, bigger tires, skid plates, and a low range. Maybe a front LSD. This could be very cheap to do - mostly parts bin or existing aftermarket stuff. Call it the Forester Sport, maybe.

    I've spent time in Brazil, Belize, and Suriname, and I can tell you that it's not about recreational off roading there. It's about making it through dirt roads, beaches, and muddy trails. So ground clearance and durability, plus skid plate protection, is what matters.

    Even in the cities, pot holes are big enough to eat entire cars. Suspension travel and a tolerant ride for the bumps is important. Gas mileage, too, make that diesel actually because it costs half as much.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Maybe...

    << But distribution costs are prohibitive for a tiny make like Subaru in those regions. >>

    If Subaru is already in those markets, I don't think it's that big a deal. I don't think Subaru (FHI) is as tiny as you think. If Isuzu and Mitsubishi can do it, I think Subaru can.

    Bob
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Like Juice said, a beefed up forester v. whole new platform is a big difference in price. They could do a beefed up forester for around 4K premium, maybe less by changing the A-arms, axles, gearing, skid-plates, tires, etc. That would be doable, but a whole new product wouldn't work since they are such a small player.

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    At least for the countries I'm talking about, all Subies are imported, and that makes them expensive. There isn't a Subaru import dealer in the NE region of Brazil, even. Only in the SE (Rio, Sao Paulo).

    It's ironic because the extra ground clearance and AWD (with good gas mileage a must) is exactly what most folks there need. But import duties fluctuate so it's risky unless FHI built a plant in Brazil. Mercedes (A-class), Honda (Civic) and Toyota (Corolla) have, just recently. VW, Ford, Fiat, and GM have been there for decades. Isuzu and Mitsubishi are basically nonexistent.

    I think the Pleo and the Outback Sport could sell well there, as well as the Forester, and maybe the Outback as a full-fledged luxury car (for that market, remember). But currently the Forester and Outback are at near luxury prices.

    Subaru needs to assemble cars locally to sell them in those markets.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    has learned a lot from their rally efforts. Much of that knowledge could be applied to a Super-Duty Forester. Australia would be a perfect test bed for such a vehicle.

    Bob
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