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Comments
I'll summarize first, because there is enough to talk about for weeks!
First drive was a VDC. Yowsah. Makes the Volvo S40 I just drove seem like an econobox! Near silence at idle. The H6 was already quiet, now the whole vehicle is better insulated. Dual zone climate control (un-HAL like) with heated seats, aah. Settle in and get comfy right away.
Driving off, the biggest improvement is the tranny. 5 ratios work wonders to keep this engine in its sweet spot. It's still not the torque pig down low, but the tranny is brilliant, HUGE improvement, much better than the F-XT I sampled. Perhaps this one had more time to adapt to aggressive driving. It kicks down smartly and quickly, though it's so smooth you have to look at the tach to know it's shifting.
Second impression is the ride - wow, like a magic carpet. Very nicely insulated. Surprisingly a good handling balance, too, it did not feel tippy or lean as much as, say, the Volvo XC. We drove on an off road section, a rocky dirt trail, and it didn't miss a beat. Over crests it never bottomed out, we didn't even have to slow down!
But I *have* to go back to the tranny, I was so impressed. It has 3 modes, Drive, Sport, and Manual. Drive strives for economy, and with instant mpg on the on-board computer you can measure it real-time. Sport impressed me, though, kicking down with any sudden throttle input, and I mean RIGHT NOW, no delay. Better yet, it would hold a gear longer. Interestingly both modes allow the engine to rev all the way to redline before shifting. Driven by guts inside.
Manual mode was fun, quicker (by far) than Volvo or VW, but still not Porsche Boxster instant. As good as you can reasonably expect for a near-luxury car, though.
Bob will chime in and rave about the smooth ride, which is what I think impressed him most. The VDC is not the boy racer's choice, but anyone else lucky enough to afford this will not be disappointed.
-juice
We hopped in a white sedan with a spoiler and took a long, leisurely ride on the highway. Not enough twisties to test the suspension, but the ride was nice.
Silence. The biggest improvement from our 2002 Legacy L wagon is NVH control is hugely improved. We had to turn the radio off completely to hear some faint wind noise. Imagine driving the old model with ear plugs, and you get the general idea.
The tranny here is a 4EAT, Sportshift again being a big improvement and the software is just so much better, it makes me think they switched from PC to Mac. ;-)
Ride is better than our Legacy, impressive when you consider we were riding on 1" bigger rims with lower profile tires.
The engine? Felt familiar, but somehow it seemed a little more spirited, my guess is the diet helped there. I'd have to guess 8 second range for 0-60, not bad for a base engine with automatic. Not lacking in any way, in fact it makes it harder to justify an upgrade (rats!). Combined with 22/30 (23/30 for a likely even quicker manual tranny) and this is the budget buy when gas prices are closing in on $2.50 per.
I liked it, this would be the ideal car for my wife. She's been considering an automatic and complains that I didn't let her get a sedan, and the range would be excellent for her highway commute.
That's what any reasonable person would think. For the rest of us, read on...
-juice
Actually, it was dry all the time, this is the desert! ;-)
I strap on the helmet and get in one of the very first cars to go out. This is a 5 speed manual sedan, Limited. I let into the clutch and immediately was impressed by the new dual-mass flywheel, it's so smooth that I think they must have used BMW's supplier. Best clutch and tranny combo I've ever tried in a Subaru. By far.
We slowly make our way to the infield track, the expert co-driver gives me the green light to merge onto the track and I'm off...YEEEEEHAAAAAW!
I'm instantly familiar with the car, but the track is all new to me, so I'm learning the line on the first lap. 2nd lap I'm getting up to speed, and just when I feel like Ayrton Senna it's time to pull in to the pits.
Don't tease me!
No way, that's not enough. Don't care if I have to bribe someone, I'm going again.
Luckily there is time, this time I get in a wagon, Sportshift. We were asked not to use Sportshift on the track, bummer, but that's OK, I can concentrate on the driving a little more, after all I am inexperienced.
The auto is just fine, thanks, very smart, in fact I don't think I ever noticed it once, and that's a good thing. It was just always in the right gear, and never shifted mid-turn. The wagon feels no different, to be honest.
The catch? This time the co-driver was baby-sitting, asking me to back off, interfering too much with my driving. Ugh. Frustrated, I feel like I can't get the full impression I want, after all this is The Mission.
Sorry to be rude, but a Man's gotta do what a Man's gotta do. I get in line for a 3rd ride, apologies to anyone offended by my determination. The Crew would not be let down.
Back to a sedan, manual. This time I tell the co-driver that I've done the track twice, know the line, and want to get a feel for the car at the limits. "All righty, Mate"
YES!
I time my entrance to the track so that I have plenty of room ahead of me. As I merge onto the track my smile was so wide that for the first time ever I saw the gums beyond my wisdom teeth.
This turbo is blisteringly quick. I mean stupid fast. Your lap times are certainly not limited by the power available.
Handling is neutral, the car drifts all 4 wheels as you hit that apex and accelerate out of it, no lag.
The steering, ah. Wonderful. Tight and hefty feel, I checked the brochure later and sure enough, 2.8 turns lock to lock, nice and quick ratio. I was able to keep both hands on the wheel for the entire lap, and it was easy to clip each apex just where you wanted it.
The brakes? I thought I was a jet landing on an air craft carrier. My eye balls popped out of their sockets at the end of the straight, in fact I scrubbed off too much speed and hit the corner a little slow. Still no problem power sliding out of the turn.
The track was fun, it had wide turns, but still short. On the straight I redlined 3rd and used 4th for a bit, so we probably hit 100+ I'm guessing.
The car's behavior is impressive, smooth, neutral, it just didn't complain at all, no matter what you threw at it.
3rd time's a charm, I guess. I nailed it. The laps felt quick, in fact at the end I had caught up to the car in front of me and had to back off! No doubt I reached the limit of my skills FAR before the limits of this supreme automobile.
I'm officially submitting a job application for Subaru Track Tester. This is way too fun.
Yes, Ken, buy the GT, just don't rub it in too much, you promise? ;-)
-juice
Craig
I'd been to Walt Disney World Speedway and tried the Petty Experience, where you drive a Busch series around the track while following a lead car. It was fun, and loud, and I managed 122mph that day. That is the fastest I've ever gone.
Was, that is.
I strap in to the passenger seat, another GT sedan, manual tranny. Helmeted, of course. We accelerate down pit road and I get the first glimpse of a 5-60 acceleration run, with no clutch abuse. This car should easily be in the 5s, and under 14 seconds on the 1/4 mile. Can't say if it's quicker than the Forester XT, but they'd be close.
We take a hard left on to the course like no Forester could (short of the STi). Still accelerating hard, once again the engine isn't nearly the limitation here, it's the tires.
Turn one is gradual. Turn two is hard and part of it is banked. I brace myself like you do on a roller coaster ride. We come off the bank and accelerate towards the start line, hitting 120mph.
Amazingly, the car is still quiet at that speed. I made less noise at 120mph than that Busch race car did at idle. The GT feels like she could go a lot faster with the right tires.
We do a 2nd lap and pull in to pit row. The driver shows me the tires - the RE92s were shredding the outer tread blocks. V rated means 149mph, but in a straight line, not in sustained high speed racing conditions.
Then I remembered I'd promised to try to video tape a hot lap. I was determined. I'll figure a way to upload it, today hopefully, so the Crew can watch.
I waited until the entire group finished their laps, and then spoke to the SoA rep about my idea. No problemo, they put me in a car with newer tires, and informed the driver. I also told him I'd gone 122mph before. I think he took this as a challenge!
Boy, I hadn't wet my pants since I rode along with Hutch...
Just kidding.
The impressive thing about it is that even at 125mph (indicated), there is little drama. You feel lateral gs like crazy on the banks, especially on turn 2, my fave. There is some body lean, but this is not an STi, this is a car that has to be streetable.
We pull in and I feel nothing but complete satisfaction. For your basic street legal Legacy GT to exceed the speed on an oval that I had achieved in a full blown race car boggles my mind. And with no drama, to boot.
I hope the video captures 10% of what I felt, hopefully it will bring you all a good laugh at least.
-juice
Subaru didn't have other cars along for comparison, but I can't help but try to think about this.
On the low end, Mazda6? Size and styling are a match, but the engine has much less torque down low and even so manages to have nasty torque steer. It's also a lot louder, much less NVH control than the Subie. Sorry, nice as it is, it's not in the same class.
Accord/Camry? Not in the same league of sportiness, sorry. Not even close. The overboosted steering makes these feel like school buses compared to the GT.
Acura TSX? Haven't driven one, but look at the torque figures alone and you'll know.
Audi A4 Quattro? I have not tried the current generation, but the last generation, even with a V6, might be a match for the base Legacy with a manual. Forget the GT. Handling, though, is reminiscent of my last Audi test.
Passat? Well, compare the two and the interiors will seem familiar, with padded dash and head liner, upgraded carpets and trim, and good NVH control. But drive off and the Passat falls flat on its face, the Legacy GT will run laps around one.
Volvo S40 T5? No way, sorry. It's slower, understeers, and the interior can only hope to compete with the Impreza's.
BMW? Ah, the benchmark for sporty small sedans. But the last one I drove was an automatic 325i, and even at $32k it was not a match. I'd love to compare a 330i with the Sport package to a Legacy GT, though.
Subaru seemed to combine the interior materials of the Passat, BMW's steering and clutch, Nissan VQ's torque, and Audi's traction, and wrapped in one heck of a car.
Especially for the price, it doesn't get any better.
-juice
Mark
Forgot one thing - the seats are much improved, the 2.5i's seats are better than our 2002's, and the GT's are better still.
The WRX has more side bolstering, but again the GT is more comfortable.
-juice
It's going to take a while for all this to set in, but the bottom line is Subaru does indeed have a winner with these new models. Sure there are a few nits here and there (and you guys know I'll be the first to spot those!), but there's nothing major what so ever.
Patti's right. Just after checking out yesterday we ventured over to the SOA dealer area at the Bellagio to see if we could get some brochures (we did!) and ran into one of our SOA hosts, who let us in and gave us the grand tour of the SOA dealer aspect. To the best of my knowledge, we were the only non-SOA people to get that special treatment.
What a great trip!!!
Bob
-juice
Bob
I have a Comcast account, but the 25MB of storage space they give requires my account password, as far as I can tell. Should I build a quick web site around the MPG file?
Or can I use ImageStation?
Hints welcomed.
-juice
EXCELLENT write up. You got my pulse going!
Okay, that just about does it for me. I'm placing my order for a Legacy GT Wagon LTD with 5EAT THIS WEEK.
So, you mentioned the 5EAT did pretty well -- how much "fun" do you lose over 5MT?
Ken
(soon to be officially off the fence)
-mike
The manual is still more involving, but the Sportshift isn't any less fun, really. Both are too-fast-for-public-roads and license endangering, if you ask me. In other words, the power is juuust right.
Photos are up!
http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4288086953
-juice
BTW, Ken, I may beat you too it as I've got my salesman on notice with the IMBA discount voucher in hand. I too am undecided on the MT vs. AT but that's a much lower fence than the "which model" fence. LOL! ;-)
I was really hoping the AT would be horrible. Would have made my decision a whole heck of a lot easier! LOL!
Cheers!
-Ian
-Brian
(1) How is the handling of the 05 GT wagon compare with the Forrester? If I go with the FXT, I will have to replace the tires since I didn't feel comfortable with the sharp turns I took with the FXT? Comments with the GT wagon? In what situation would the buyer be satisfied with the stock tires and when would one want to replace the tires of the GT?
(2) Low end torgue/acceleration of FXY vs GT? Comparison and contrasts between the 2 vehicles please.
(3) Moonroof question between the 2 vehicles. I am very impress with the enormous moonroof of the FXT? Does the 05 GT wagon give an equal open feeling?
(4) If you wre to choose between the 2 vehicles (recognizing you are different from me), in what situations would you choose either car over the other?
THanks again for your great reports!!
Leo
My dyno-butt says the GT is the better handler. It's been a while since I drove the FXT, so I'm guessing. I do have a '01 Forester S Premium, and the GT is a much better handler than that car. I can't really comment on the tires.
(2) Low end torque/acceleration of FXY vs GT? Comparison and contrasts between the 2 vehicles please.
This is a perfect case where, 'I wished I had driven the GT under normal dring conditions,' as I don't yet know the answer. I didn't notice any turbo lag, but then again I was driving in a high-performance situation where turbo lag might not come into play.
(3) Moonroof question between the 2 vehicles. I am very impress with the enormous moonroof of the FXT? Does the 05 GT wagon give an equal open feeling?
Yes.
(4) If you were to choose between the 2 vehicles (recognizing you are different from me), in what situations would you choose either car over the other?
Money no object, the Legacy GT—hands down would be my choice. The refinement level is so much higher than that of the Forester. It will also be much more satisfying on a twisty road.
Bob
-mike
CRaig
gotta admit i love to hear juice grunting at the Gs lol
Juice, you helped demonstrate the seat side bolsters!
Thanks for the vid (and Paisan for hosting it)!
-Brian
-mike
-Brian
Juice and Bob got exactly what I needed...I'm sold..the pic of the dog guard and the video are all I need to know! My Lab is gonna love the Legacy GT wagon! I am surprised at how bright the Garnet Red is....may be a contender!
Mark
Steve
Saw a new Subaru ad last night during Wednesday's 60 Minutes. VERY upscale. Talked about pleasing both sides of a person, for instance, they showed Lance at the end getting out of an Outback in street clothes and then a ghostly image of him in his bike attire. The ad was VERY VERY classy.
Jim
The FXT comes with 215/60/16 Light Truck All-Seasons. If I'm not mistaken, the GT gets 215/45/17 RE92's (High Performance A/S).
NICE video!! juice, are you the first from the drive to get pics up?
-Dennis
Nice video! Was that ride in the sedan, or wagon? Looked like lots of fun.
Paisan-thansk for hosting the video.
Mark
As time gets closer to our trip, I'll let you know more details so hopefully we can et togethr maybe for dinner somewhere.
This brings up an interesting point about the Ride-'n-Drive: Brochures were not available to the invited guests like juice and myself. We only got them because of our persistence on the last day we were there. We were VERY lucky to get these brochures. It was just a matter of timing and being in the right place at the right time.
Obviously SOA invites people like juice and myself to these events in the hope of getting positive feedback (SALES!) from our posts. Brochures should be made available to ALL invited guests, just as they were available to all the dealers who showed up for this event. Brochures help us (juice and myself) in terms of giving everyone here correct info.
So Patti, if you are listening, please pass on to Jon, Sam, et al, that the availability of brochures for guests will make our jobs (feedback on Edmunds, etc.) just that much easier, and more accurate. As you have seen here, people are waiting with baited breath for our impressions. Brochures definitely help us to do that better.
...And being able to sit in on some of the dealer meetings would also be very helpful. The more info that we get (or have access to), the better informed we are, which results in better and more accurate postings from juice and myself.
Bob
siennadent "Toyota Sienna: Prices Paid & Buying Experience" May 20, 2004 10:48am
Many thanks,
Steve, Host
FWIW, I picked up the very same brochures at my dealership on Tuesday. They should be available to all by now.
Cheers!
-Ian
-Brian
At least I'm still getting a Subaru! ;-)
I'm calling Santa Cruz in a few minutes.
Ken
Bob
The new shape Liberty and Outback have been on sale in Australia for more than six months now. They have proved very popular and I have asked a few folk driving them what they think.
Inevitably the most popular line is, "Well this is my third Subaru, the previous ones went 200,000km before I replaced them" suggesting this generation has continued its appeal to dedicated Subaru owners.
The overll impression on quality is an uplift from the previous generation.
The car looks better with time and I keep looking at ones that pass by. I think silver is probably the best colour for the Outback although the blue pearl look lovely.
Hope you giys enjoy them as much as we do
Cheers
Graham
Delivery confirmation will come in a few weeks. Dealer estimates delivery in early July!
Now the painful waiting begins.
Does this count as being off the fence? I can technically cancel and get a full refund on my deposit should I change my mind. :-)
Ken
Bob