Subaru Crew - Meet The Members II

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Comments

  • njswamplandsnjswamplands Member Posts: 1,760
    i think we are saying the business model is wrong. even a joyrider like juice coming back here and preaching good things abou tthe mx-5 is great for mazda. so something is wrong in the basic business model of manufacturer /dealership.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Not really, they do those offers just to generate showroom traffic. Once a customer is in the dealer they're hoping for impulse buys, even though it doesn't happen too often. $35 to get a foot in the door, if 1 in 10 of those actually buys it they come out way ahead.

    I drove the MX-5 at the Zoom Zoom Live event, not at that dealer.

    Subaru had a similar offer for the 05 Legacy, it got my wife in to drive one. In a way it worked, she wants a Legacy 2.5i Limited sedan now.

    -juice
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    i think we are saying the business model is wrong. even a joyrider like juice coming back here and preaching good things abou tthe mx-5 is great for mazda. so something is wrong in the basic business model of manufacturer /dealership.

    That works for standard full production models but not for limited production ones like the STi. There's just not enough of them floating around that can be abused on test drives. Besides, cars like the STi and Evo have all the publicity they need for their target demographics.

    -Frank
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Have an on-going road show (Edmunds Live --every day, all day). You go to the Subbie show and drive an STi, a Forester, and the older Justy lurking in the dark shadows. The lot managers are on salary, know the best test routes, and know everything about the cars. You have to pay $50 for the privilege, but you get that credited to your purchase price if you buy a new car in a year.

    You're ready to buy so you head for Starbucks, logon to subaru.com with your laptop, find something in inventory you like and place your order. The next day a couple of folks from the dealership that had your desired model in stock deliver your new ride, get the paperwork signed and you're done.

    Two months later you visit the free-standing service center for your first oil change. After lunch you go play golf with Terry and Isell ('cause they sure aren't hunting for ups anymore).

    Hey, it could happen (remember travel agents?).

    Steve, Host
  • prosaprosa Member Posts: 280
    Yes it could happen, but that doesn't mean it's likely. Car dealers are a well-organized group with considerable political influence. They would fight hard against any new business models that might be less favorable than the current one, and they'd win the fight.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    They do own the statehouses in most places....

    Steve, Host
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Not a bad idea - they had one for the Legacy GT, remember that event last year? A lot of folks here went.

    I agree with Frank, though, the STI is limited production and already has all the attention it needs. No trouble selling those. If you leave due to the test drive policy, someone else will just buy it, no big deal to them.

    -juice
  • hondafriekhondafriek Member Posts: 2,984
    Why don't you take your attitude to some of the other forums on the net.

    Cheers Pat.
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Leaving potential damage to the vehicle and wasted time for non-serious buyers aside for a moment, isn't the real underlying reason why dealers don't allow STi test drives because they can move inventory without offering this sales tactic?

    Ken
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    Because I figured maybe I'd get an answer that made sense here instead of replies like yours :shades:
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    Huh?

    I'm not sure what the intended reference is for "this sales tactic". If you mean "test drive" and for academic purposes we are excluding damage, wear, and bodily harm :sick: then I would say that a test drive in a very fast car is actually a GREAT way to sell them.

    ~Colin
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    Sorry about the attitude. I guess I need to clarify my position. The point in my mind is that I shouldn't have to jump through hoops or have a strategy to drive a $34,000.00 vehicle. It's all about perception. I don't perceive that car to have the same value as a Ferrari, or my daughters virginity to warrant keeping it under lock and key.
    Point 2 For me The driving dynamics, seat position, steering feedback, clutch and gearbox feel all factor in to the process. However, so does dealership experience. For me to get denied so early in the " Subaru club" says a lot about the overall experience.
    In summation, it hasn't "worked " as some might think, all it has done is pissed me off. And I've gotten on here and been rude and I apologize. But, it hasn't made me want to "rethink' how to get a testdrive. It's made me want to laugh hysterically at they're business practices and swear to never set foot in a Subaru store again.
    I hope that helps, and once again my apologies for going off on some......Merry Christmas to all
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    The problem as I see it is that you're taking the dealer's policy as a personal insult. To some extent, I can understand that and might quite possibly feel the same if it had happened to me. However, if you look at the policy impartially, it makes sense.

    If there were rows upon rows of STis sitting on the lot collecting dust that would be one thing, but since I suspect that's not the case, then the dealer's is free to set whatever policy they want. Just like some dealer's charging over the MSRP for hot sellers, they do it because they can still sell cars for the inflated price. If they alienate some customers in the process, that's a risk they're obviously willing to take.

    -Frank
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    I guess that's the problem, I'm not looking impartially. The problem with that is once again, perception. I think if you asked the average person on the street "can Subaru get away with pre-qualifying customers for test drives" I think the majority would say hell no. I am with them. Subaru doesn't have the position in the market to do that. Just MO.Legally yes. But aren't they having to cut production because they're original sales goals are not being met? It just doesn't seem to me that they are in a position to be snooty. But, I'm not running Subaru {some of you are whispering thank God}
    I'm no business expert, but I would think that Subaru would be trying to gain customers, not push them away.
    I'm sure if most people were denied say service or something at Kmart and were treated rudely they wouldn't be saying, "well you just have to look at it from Kmart's perspective" That's what I now think of Subaru, Kmart...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    To you a $34k sports sedan is no big deal, to that Subaru dealer it's their performance halo car, and one sold in limited numbers at that. A car they might have trouble selling if it has too many test drive miles on it. Pretty simple.

    So yeah, you may have to jump through a few hoops, something most eager STI intenders are more than willing to do.

    Do you realize that 400+ people attended the US debut of the 2006 STI at Miller Subaru in PA? They are not cutting production by any means.

    You were not very motivated, and got turned off right away. In all likelihood you would have driven the STI and used the test drive as a reference, an chosen something else that wasn't so "K-Mart" to you. You don't think it's special, fine, but the people most likely to actually buy do indeed think it's special. So it sounds like they were right to rule you out, ironically - they made the right decision!

    Subaru isn't trying to get badge snobs that are "slumming" in their dealerships. Those people are going to whine about the dash not being strokable enough, LOL.

    You never answered my question, though.

    Would you buy an STI with a few hundred test drive miles on it? And YES, that is a trick question.

    Say Yes, and you are a hypocrite.

    Say No, and you are unwise.

    -juice
  • prosaprosa Member Posts: 280
    I think if you asked the average person on the street "can Subaru get away with pre-qualifying customers for test drives" I think the majority would say hell no. I am with them. Subaru doesn't have the position in the market to do that. Just MO.Legally yes. But aren't they having to cut production because they're original sales goals are not being met?

    Subaru's not cutting production on STI's, which are selling as fast as dealers can get them. Yes, Tribeca production is being (temporarily) reduced, but that's unrelated to the STI.
    You'd surely have no trouble in being allowed to test drive a Tribeca, even a top-line model that costs more than an STI. Price isn't the issue behind the dealership's no-test-drive policy. In addition to the possibility of abuse, they're not letting people test drive STI's because they don't have to.
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    I'm beginning to think that no amount of reasoned and logical explanations is going to have any effect on dhamiltion. His feelings have been hurt and he has permanently been turned off from ever again considering a Subaru (although I'm not certain that was ever an actual real possibility). We should probably just wish him good luck finding a $34k Ferrari or a reliable Audi (at any price) :(o)

    -Frank
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That's not fair, Frank. Audis break down fairly reliably. :D

    -juice
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    they're better anyway. ;)

    but of course... don't expect a test drive unless they have a used one or you're willing to commit to buy pending a favorable test! :P

    ~Colin
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I doubt they'll treat him any differently.

    -juice
  • bat1161bat1161 Member Posts: 1,784
    Hey folks,

    I posted over in the Events board (bat1161, "Subaru Crew - Events" #2439, 14 Dec 2005 9:44 am) talking about our annual Subaru owners 48HR trip. Everyone is invited, even for just a portion or to meet up for dinner/breakfast along the way. Our first night is in Philly; the second night in Niagara Falls.

    I don't have access to any of the sites where the details are being planned here at work, but you can always contact either Mike or myself and we can get it for you. Unless Mike can link it up?

    Mark
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    OK It's seems at first many people were turned off by me being so adamant. When I apologize the personal snubs come out. But that's ok I can take it. Better than these cars that are so reliable but they can't handle to many test drives. Frank,and Juice. Your logic seems to be that they don't do test drives because people won't buy a new car with 300 miles on it. But on the other hand these cars are so reliable it shouldn't matter. Audi doesn't have great reliability {no argument from me} but seems to worry more about a good customer experience.
    Does that strike anyone as crazy? I doubt it. Most people in here seem to have drunken the Subaru kool-aid from the golden chalice. That's fine. Brand loyalty is great.
    A far as the question from giz err juice. It seems to me that it would be smart to check the date that the vehicle went in to service. For instance if the warranty is 3 years 36k miles and we are in december and the car went in to service last month, Then I would say that enough of the warranty is in tact. And if given enough of a discount of MSRP then yes, I would buy it. Oh wait, it's an STI and the clutch can't handle all that torque It's not as reliable as we just said it was. Granted that's the scenario for a loaner, or demo as suggested by some to be out out for test drives. On a new STI? not now, after hearing how they can't hold up due to public nuisances like me test driving them. Would I buy that Audi? hell yeah. It's once again for me about 75% car, 25%dealer experience.
    Now we are going [non-permissible content removed] for tat here and it's fun eh? No whining now children. Get in your Subarus and hope you make it home because I may have driven it while you were sleeping and darn it all it just can't take the abuse.
    The other post where someone said good luck finding a reliable 35k Audi? There is no such thing. Not looking for it. I am looking for the best car out there under 50k that offers both a great driving experience, Descent autocross capabilities, Comfort for long drives, and a good dealer relationship. Good luck to all, and I sincerely wish you all a merry christmas. :shades:
  • Karen_SKaren_S Member Posts: 5,092
    I'm curious. Have you asked the salesfolk that hang out in "Any Questions for a Car Dealer?" in Smart Shopper about their dealership test drive policies? Perhaps they may have some more insight to offer you and I'm sure they would glad to discuss it with you there.

    Also, you may want to take some time and read thru Test Drives & Dealership Promotions
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Yes, I meant sales tactic = test drive. Not in a negative sense, but to differentiate it from a sales strategy.

    I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm not saying that a test drive isn't a good tactic. It's an excellent sales tool, but in the case of the STi, why bother if you can sell one without a test drive? That's all I meant.

    Ken
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    I love it when someone proves my point so succinctly ;-)
    Better yet, now that we've successfully alienated another potential Subaru convert, there's more Kool-Aid left for me :(o)

    -Frank
  • ladywclassladywclass Member Posts: 1,713
    are you just trying to see who can get the last word in here? .. or is there really a point that is being debated?

    seems to me that if you 'ignore' the whiny child they stop whining .. and if you give him attention ...
  • njswamplandsnjswamplands Member Posts: 1,760
    and so does ken and so does juice. a good business model is one that pisses off the least amount of potential buyers at a minimum.
  • tsytsy Member Posts: 1,551
    Umm, Dan, did you have an unhappy childhood? Because you're starting to sound a lot like some of my patients.

    Subaru is a niche brand, it's not Toyota, it's not VW, and it's certainly not GM. It has a very loyal following, for good reason. They are very safe, reliable, comfortable, stick like velcro, go almost anywhere, and are not flashy (and maybe even funny looking!) They are popular among professionals and many people buy them who can afford to buy much more, but choose to buy a Subaru.

    I hope you remember that Subaru Dealers are not the only ones that limit test drives, so don't villify all Subaru dealers and owners because of your bad experience. If your wife is a resident physician she can tell you all about the danger of making conclusions based on anecdotal evidence.

    According to what you are looking for, you should think about a Legacy GT and mod the suspension, wheels and tires, and maybe some mild engine massage. And find a better dealer. But if you're just looking for a fight, well, I can't help you. Nor would I want to.

    Merry Christmas back. Good luck.
  • hondafriekhondafriek Member Posts: 2,984
    Couldn't have said it better myself Brenda.

    Cheers Pat.
  • tsytsy Member Posts: 1,551
    How about giving them the paddle? :cry:

    I would think that would work very well in public education! :D

    Sorry, I shouldn't even joke about this. But there's always that temptation to smack the whiny kid. . .

    tom
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Got a call from Fitzgeralds saying the accessories I ordered with the car came in, and for me to bring it back to get them installed.

    I had ordered roof rack cross bars (Outback Sport type w/bungie cord loops, not the round bar type), center armrest extension, and the rear bumper pad (for our dog).

    I was a little miffed when I went to pick up the car last Thursday, only to find the accessories were not on the car, but that they weren't even ordered! I was under the impression the accessories were installed, or so the salesman lead me to believe that. Fitzgerald's dropped a notch or so after that. Still excellent prices though...

    At any rate, the accessories are now in, and I had them installed to day. I had to wait about an hour and half. Oh well...

    Bob
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    Thanks for being supportive njswamplands

    i believe Edmunds to be a place to come and posts opinions, and debate what we all love...cars. I have been enjoying this process. It's hard to figure however. There are complaints about being whinny, stated by being whinny. It's seems silly to me. I think we are debating a valid issue and making some funny jabs, and then all of a sudden feelings seem to be getting in the way. Bring on the debate. Bring on the jabs, just make them funny and interesting. STY I believe, thanks for your advice. I wish you a merry christmas and I hope many patients err clients stuff much wampum in your g-string ;)
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
  • jfljfl Member Posts: 1,399
    Bob...Bob...you believed the SALESMAN????

    How could you! :cry:

    Jim
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Yeah, my mistake. I guess I was just drunk with joy upon getting the car, and couldn't think clearly. :)

    Bob
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Don't feel bad -- it happens to the best of us! ;-)

    Just make sure that the accessories get covered under factory warranty and not the typical 1-year parts/labor for dealer installs.

    Ken
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    It's not an issue of reliability. Any clutch is designed to be the first thing to give, before the trans or other drivetrain items do. It's the customers, the buyers, that don't want a clutch with 300 miles of hard test drives on them before they buy.

    Clutches are a wear and tear item, on any car, at any price. Do you think Ferrari could sell an F430 with 300 miles without knocking off a substantial amount?

    If you buy a high-performance car with 300 miles on it, you risk that is has been used hard and therefore worn a little. This is by design, this does not mean a car is "unreliable".

    Now you're saying you'd buy a car if it came with a discount. I imagine that would be a few hundred dollars, at least. Even if there are enough people like you, willing to buy an STI with a few miles on it, then it's still costing the dealer a few hundred bucks, which is a decent portion of their profit margin.

    So from a dealer's perspective, he can cut his profits in half or so plus limit the number of potential buyers with an open door test drive policy. Not to mention accept the liability for aggressive driving.

    Suicide. That makes no business sense. You have to filter out the potential buyers at least somewhat.

    This is not an SoA policy, it's up to dealers. Many people here can and have test driven STIs. They were willing to jump through a few hoops, you were not. Pretty simple.

    Your attitude that this is "KMart", i.e. badge snobbery, is probably what hurt your odds. You probably don't shop at KMart anyway, and you probably would not have bought the STI, either.

    I still say the dealer had good judgement in this situation.

    -juice
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    That's it, your putting this car in a category with Ferrari. Hilarious. It's not brand snobbery. It's just not reality in any place except this little forum. That's the point I'm trying to make. I've done it, I'm done.... :shades:
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    They're under warranty, as they were purchased at the time of the vehicle purchase.

    It was just an unexpected hassle, nothing more.

    Bob
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    a good business model is one that pisses off the least amount of potential buyers

    Swampy- Agreed but the only way the "no test drive" policy can work is if they don't have a problem selling their allotment of STIs.

    And how many "potential buyers" are they actually pissing off? I'm not in the market for an STi but if I were, I agree with Juice's point that I would only want to buy one with low or no miles on it (my FXT had 7 IIRC). when you look at it that way, the dealer's policy makes a little more sense.

    Since the STI and Evo are the only two cars on the market today that are basically street legal versions of their autocross counterparts, the pool of true potential buys is very small and also very knowledgeable. Therefore I suspect that most of them tolerate the "no test drive" policy since they understand what the STi is capable of.

    On the other hand, casual shoppers looking for a fun test ride or who just want to brag that they've driven an STi (this is the group I would belong to), will be far more likely to take offense at this policy.

    Just my two cents...

    -Frank
  • Karen_SKaren_S Member Posts: 5,092
    ...just a reminder that though you may not agree with another member, please refrain from posting personal judgements of the member's character.

    Also, as this discussion is intended for friendly discourse for Subaru owners, this debate really belongs elsewhere, such as the two topics I previously mentioned. Or if it appears to be one that needs its own place, I will gladly create a new one. Your choice.
  • lilbluewgn02lilbluewgn02 Member Posts: 1,089
    Bob
    Are you sure you were drunk with joy, or just drunk???(j/k)
    Serge
  • lilbluewgn02lilbluewgn02 Member Posts: 1,089
    Dinner anyone??? Michael and I are flyimg up on Sunday and will be around until Jan 1. I'd love to get together for dinner, maybe somewhere in the city...
    Let me know...lunches will be tough as I have some interviews lined up in West Orange and Union high schools as well as a middle school.

    Serge
  • bat1161bat1161 Member Posts: 1,784
    Just to change the mood a bit, how many people here would get affected if NYC Transit does go on strike?

    Mark
  • tsytsy Member Posts: 1,551
    Actuallly, I have that eternal hope of finding salespeople of integrity. In all my dealings, I have found a few, but not many!

    Well, Bob. Maybe in your giddiness you misunderstood the salesman. ;)

    Hope you still like the rex. It must be a blast with the 2.5L. Almost STi like. Except with more room! (for the helmet) :D

    tom
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    No, I didn't misunderstand him. Still under break-in mode. 500 more miles to go...

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That's it, your putting this car in a category with Ferrari

    Wrong. I said "on any car, at any price". Once again you're reading selectively (you did with Colin earlier).

    I'm done....

    Promise? :D

    Three points remain.

    1. Rough test drives add miles and buyers are for the most part extremely sensitive to how many miles a performance car (not luxury) will have on it when they take delivery. Dan admitted as much, saying he expects a discount in those cases, while others like me and Frank would skip the car entirely.

    2. To make matters worse, these miles are accumulated during the car's break-in period. It's very unlikely that a tester would stay under 4000 rpm and avoid full throttle as recommended by the manufacturer's guidelines for the break-in period.

    3. A test drive that was "ethical" and did stay under 4000 rpm would not begin to tell you the capability of a car like the STI anyway. The smart thing to do is find a local club and ask for a ride-along with an owner that has a broken in car. Life begins at 4000rpm.

    Subaru could perhaps get around that with demo cars for each region, but the fact is they don't have to. Smart, resourceful shoppers can get around that.

    Lazy ones will whine about it.

    -juice
  • njswamplandsnjswamplands Member Posts: 1,760
    btw bob did u get ur test drive about 4k?
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Actually the 2.5 WRX has good power below 4K. I haven't been bored. :)

    Bob
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Steve, Host
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