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My Salesperson Misled Me
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"Break in isn't critical on modern cars."
These statements are INACCURATE for at least Honda and Toyota vehicles. I own a 2006 Accord and 2007 Rav4, and both have explicit break-in instructions in the owner's manual. Unless you guys are smarter than the engineers, then proper break-in procedures should indeed be followed.
And if anyone thinks proper break-in is performed on rental cars, you're crazy!
"We buy ex-rentals too but we cherry pick them. We won't buy a rough one and carefully inspect the ones we do decide to buy."
"It's not uncommon for our Used Car Manager or our buyer to attend a auction where they are running a bunch of ex-rentals through and come back empty handed."
Based on your comments Isell, it sounds like a large portion of the rental fleet are too rough/abused for you to sell, which is what I've been saying all along. How many non-rental auctions does your UCM go to and come back empty handed? Is this more or less common than the rental auctions?
"I also know for a fact that the various rental companies will vary in their maintenance schedules. Without mentioning any names, I will say some of the low end places will skimp on maintenance and keep their cars too long."
One of the arguments here for rentals being just as good as private party cars is because rental agencies perform exceptional, top of the line maintenance, at the required intervals, on all of their rental cars.
According to you, this is not necessarily the case. This is yet another reason to be leery about ex-rentals.
All of these points are why I have such a hard time with the argument that ex-rentals are just as good mechanically/physically/aestetically as the average private party vehicle.
And if anyone thinks proper break-in is performed on rental cars, you're crazy!
I was waiting for someone else to chime in on that issue, glad I wasn't disapponted. My 2004 Mazda MPV comes with explicit break-in instructions as well... similar to what I wrote in a previous post. Agree... no way rentals are properly broken in.
Honda says to be gentle for the first 600 miles.
For the last time, if a person is afraid of an ex-rental, they simply shouldn't buy one!
For that matter, some people should only buy new and not used cars for the same reason.
Our used car buyers pass on MOST of the cars they see at the auction, not just ex rentals for the same reasons.
It's not about being "afraid" of rentals, it's about finding a quality used car. And overall, ex-rentals are not the best option.
Virtually all rental cars lead the same existence. It can be assumed that rentals will receive the following treatment
- No attention paid to the proper break-in procedure required by the manufacturers
- Driven by dozens or hundreds of different people with no vested interest in the care/maintenance/longevity of the car
- Driven hard and abused by at least a small portion of the renters
- Spends nearly all of its life outdoors, never garaged, exposed to the elements
- Never hand washed, always run through automatic washes
- Higher than average mileage per year
- No ability to see the vehicle maintenance history of the car, some of which skimp on maintenance (according to Isell)
With privately owned vehicles, you at least have the chance that the car has been properly broken-in and driven lightly. There is the possibility that that the car has been driven by only one person, properly washed, garaged, and with proof of proper maintenance (service records).
You have NO chance of finding a former rental car with these positive traits. Of course, many privately owned cars can be treated the same as rentals, but at least you have THE CHANCE to find one that hasn’t received the rental treatment!
I go to the auctions to buy cars for my store.
The majority of non rental auction cars aren't nice enough for me to buy.
I once worked with a guy who would buy Hertz cars every three years. He always paid quite a bit less than average for them and he always had nothing but good luck.
So, I followed his example and had similar results.
You are "afraid" and that's O.K. Just buy a non-rental or better yet, a brand new car.
Our UCM might look at fifty cars and bid on four of them. Maybe none of them!
The majority of non rental auction cars aren't nice enough for me to buy."
Could you put a specific number on this hypothetical question...
Say you go to two auctions, one has 100 ex-rentals and the other has 100 non rentals. In your experience, how many cars would you come away with from each auction?
The vast majority of used car buyers do not buy a newer car every few years! A continuous cycle of buying former rentals, keeping them for only 30K miles, then buying another, is not a realistic proposition for most people.
Secondly, I would hope someone would have good luck with a vehicle if they only put ~30K miles on it then sold it before it went past 40K-50K miles. But most people buying used cars put many more miles on their vehicles and expect them to last much longer than 50K.
Lastly, I noticed you mentioned he bought from a specific rental company (Hertz), and that you had luck with the same company. You previously mentioned that certain rental companies "skimp on maintenance".
So it sounds like you would NOT recommend buying from any rental agency, but just one or two particular companies. This is far different from your earlier remarks that rentals in general are just as good as privately owned vehicles.
"So, don't buy one! Simple as that!"
"You are "afraid" and that's O.K. Just buy a non-rental or better yet, a brand new car."
Thats not the point. I'm not even in the market for a car. I'm simply presenting my reasoned/educated case for why people should steer clear of rentals. I also wouldn't buy extended car warranties or junk bonds. Does that make me "afraid" of these things as well?
It would be easier to say, how many cars would I want to bid on.
Probably half the rentals and 1/3 of the non rentals.
I neglected to mention that they person I mentioned drove at the time around 35,000 miles a year on his job. I did too.
I know he bought from Hertz but he may have bought from other rental places as well. He would buy these cars with, as I recall, around 25,000 miles and he would put 100,000 plus miles on them before he would sell them. He did this for many years and he swore by this practice. Because of his experience, I did the same thing myself, twice with the same results. Someone else's results could vary.
I don't think I ever said ex-rentals were "just as good" as privately owned cars. I think I did say, they can make excellent buys as used cars.
Umm, actually they do.
I'm sorry, but you are making assumptions without the practical expertise to back them up.
Here is what you are missing about rental cars.
Well, here are a couple of things.
1 There is a large market of people who want to buy a 1 yr old car. they don't want to buy new because of the depreciation, but they don't want an older car.
So, they buy a 1 yr old car, keep it 3-4 yrs and trade.
2, When Hertz or Avis or Enterprise,any of the big companies, buy cars from the automakers they buy them with the understanding that the automaker will buy the car back at an agreed price.
IF the car is clearly abused, the automaker can void the buyback.
Then , the rental car co has to dispose of the car themselves. Which, they really don't want to do.
Probably half the rentals and 1/3 of the non rentals.
But that's a different question. You may want to bid on more rentals, but certain factors may prevent you from doing so.
So if you had to guess, of 100 ex-rentals and 100 privately owned cars, how many do you think you would actually buy to put on your lot?
On another note, why would you prefer to bid on and buy ex-rentals as opposed to non-rentals?
Boy, I can tell you are a car salesman!!! Forgetting or neglecting to include important facts that happen make your opinion/position/product look weak. I'm sure you don't do that when you're selling cars, right??
First you cite a sample size of 3 as your basis for claiming that the negative perception of rental cars is purely "perception."
Then it turns out your sample size is made up of extreme outliers, who in no way reflect the average used car buyer.
Only a very small percentage of buyers put that many miles on a car and dump them after a few years. In the VERY narrow segment that you and your friend were in, I too would recommend buying a rental or rebuilt car...that is very common.
But your examples/opinions of ex-rentals are not relevent for the average car shopper.
I typically go looking to buy a total of 20 cars or so.
Depending on what is available to me, I may buy 10 rentals and 10 other, or I may get 5 rentals and 15 others, or 15 rentals and 5 others.
This is a bidding process, other people are there bidding as well.
On another note, why would you prefer to bid on and buy ex-rentals as opposed to non-rentals?
Here is the non rental breakdown. 1/3 of the cars have too many miles for them to be acceptable to me under any circumstances. 1/3 of the cars have obvious defects, accidents, paintwork etc, or need too much reconditioning.
1/3 of the cars are good quality cars with the right miles.
On the rental side, half the cars either have more miles than I want, or need more recondtioning than I want or have some paintwork I don't like.
I typically buy rentals w/ 6-16,000 miles on them and I want clean cars that I can certify using Volvo's CPO program.
Out of all used cars on dealerhip lots in the US, what percentage would you say are 1 yr old or newer?
Out of the entire population of all used car buyers, what proportion purchase a 1 yr old car every three years?
For your statment to be true, both of these percentages would have to be extremely high, and I just don't see it.
When I go to a used car lot, maybe 10%-15% of the cars are a year old or less. If there truely is a "large market" of people wanting to buy a 1 yr old car, then 80%+ of all used cars would need to be 1 yr old.
Secondly, other than salesmen, I don't know a single person who buys a 1 yr old used car every three years. My neighbor has been selling cars for 15 years and I've never heard him describe the used car market like you have.
Curiosity got the best of me, and I looked at the pre-owned inventory of the biggest dealership in Cincinnnati, Kings Auto Mall.
Of the 1531 used vehicles they currently have for sale...
Only 5% are 2008 or 2009 models
Only 22% are 07/08/09 models.
So this one example indicates that the market for a one-year-old car can't be too big, since there isn't much inventory.
It looks like your theory of a "large market" of people who want to buy a 1yr old car every 3 years may be wrong.
The fact my co-worker would put 100,000 miles and more on several different ex-rental cars without major problems may just be an indicator that they can, indeed be a good buy huh?
A lot of people put a LOT of miles on their cars. I deal with this on a daily basis. You don't.
So this one example indicates that the market for a one-year-old car can't be too big, since there isn't much inventory.
Ummmm.... market and inventory are 2 completely different things. And, even if you wanted to quantify using these 2 variables, your search proves vmax's statement even more because it could be interpreted that the dealership sells more of those newer vehicles and that is why their inventory is low.
But, in any case, disregarding the sales for a minute, 22% of '07, '08, and '09 models is VERY high when you compare that to the fact that, in those 3 years, less than 5% of the nation's vehicles were produced. (I'm guessing at 5% ... its probably less when you think about it, but I'm overestimating and still making the intended point.) In other words, nearly 1/4 of the lot's vehicles were produced in 3 years, while 3/4 were produced anywhere in the 120 years prior to that.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Consequently, 22% of the cars being 2007 or newer is a lot of cars.
The 07's would more than likely be, you guessed it, rental cars.
Again, you lack the practical experience to have this debate.
You aren't at the auction. You don't see all the people putting their hands in the air for these cars.
You don't have people walking onto your lot and asking for a 1 yr or 2 yr old car.
Your personal experiences and biases in no way qualify you to be an expert on this topic.
I'm sorry, but there it is.
If YOU don't like rentals, fine. No big deal.
But, please do not for one moment assume that most used car buyers think like you do. I can assure you that they don't.
Here is another thing to ponder. When the economy slows, sales of used cars goes up.
Guess which type goes up the most?
Yup, the 1 to 2 yr old cars.
Why? Because people who buy them would like a new car, but can't talk themselves into spending new car money. So, they gravitate to the 1 yr old car at a good savings.
I've seen it happen at my own store and I have seen it happen all over the industry.
- No attention paid to the proper break-in procedure required by the manufacturers
- Driven by dozens or hundreds of different people with no vested interest in the care/maintenance/longevity of the car
- Driven hard and abused by at least a small portion of the renters
- Spends nearly all of its life outdoors, never garaged, exposed to the elements
- Never hand washed, always run through automatic washes
- Higher than average mileage per year
- No ability to see the vehicle maintenance history of the car, some of which skimp on maintenance (according to Isell)
AND if it still survived and is in a good state, I would bet on this car and buy it. Tough car.
Only 5% are 2008 or 2009 models
Only 22% are 07/08/09 models.
:confuse: :sick: :confuse: :confuse: :sick:
U need to see the sales figures.
Maybe there are only 5% left. Rest are all SOLD ?
By the way, is there a forum titled "My Customer Misled Me"? Naw, I'm sure that never happens.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
You do seem to attract the "snakeweasels" don't you?
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Many of these have been rentals. I'd buy them in a heartbeat having stopped by the dealership and looked at the physical condition. I had looked last year at one of the dealerships who heavily has these cars and wish now I had bought the 4-cyl cars like I had looked at then as they've gone up in value.
The only thing I notice is the option packages are sometimes less than I might find on the occasional individual-owned trade. In fact a car I'd like at a nearby dealer is a car with no option packages but in the red I'd like. I'd be interested with one or two levels of options and the dealer has it over-priced.
I'm sure there are 1-owner cars that truly have had 1 owner and had excellent care that show up as trades. And there are some where they extended oil changes and other service knowing they were going to trade the car just like I did on the last car with 150,000 on it that I wanted to keep to 200,000 because it was going great and my wife made me trade it because she wanted a new car for her retirement.
Neighbor across the street just picked up a used Honda and I suspect it was a rental (lease) car that came the same route--SH 3.5 RL
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Well, a rental car isn't the same as a leased car.
Even though both are techincally, rented.
For purposes of this discussion, a rental car is a car that belonged to Hertz, Enterprise, Avis, etc.
A leased car would be considered a regular used car.
It's not really an argument.
Just an opinion formed without access to all the relevant information.
Not exactly the best question to ask. My guess is that almost all the ex-rentals are a year old or less with less than say 20K miles. But used non rentals can be of any age and any mileage.
Even if the non rental is taken care of better than the rental the i year old rental will look a lot better than the 5 year old non rental.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
The car might be ten years old and the single owner changed the oil twice. The car could have had three owners who treated it well.
I come in after a day and see like 40 posts and think it must be getting interesting in here. My mistake.....
isell - yeah. A Kia Optima. Nothing I'd run out and buy but it was OK for what it was and didn't stink like the Malibu. It did end any thought that I had that Kia was any threat to the Japanese just now. It ran fine and was quiet and all but looked cheap inside. For that matter so did the Malibu. Hard to believe that part when you think what they sell as a Malibu now.
Simple solution ... stop feeding the troll
No insult intended. Merely giving testament to your persistence in arguing your point. It seems Isell has found a kindred spirit.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Me too. If a car is really abused I can see someone dumping it quick. My father always said : "No body ever gets rid of a car because it was running TOO good".
I prefer 1 owner 4-5 year old low milage cars when I buy used. That eliminates the rentals and most leases. I also shy away from coupes or other "sporty" types in favor of boring domestic sedans. Finally, I shop at new car dealer used lots because as Isell mentioned, they are more likely to pass on rough cars.
But the biggest reason for the older cars is they are cheap...as am I.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
AGREE
.
I prefer 1 owner 4-5 year old low mileage cars when I buy used. That eliminates the rentals and most leases. I also shy away from coupes or other "sporty" types in favor of boring domestic sedans. Finally, I shop at new car dealer used lots because as Isell mentioned, they are more likely to pass on rough cars.
SAME HERE.
But the biggest reason for the older cars is they are cheap ...as am I
DITTO!
MY long lost brother ... I have finally found you!
Me, you and jmonroe... the 3 Cheapskate Amigos! :shades:
LOL!
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
At least 95% are former rentals.
I imagine most of the rest are repos.
I have a woman coming on Saturday to trade in her 6000 mile Civic Coupe for an Accord sedan. She says she get's "sunburned" while driving it. Go figure?
We have had two Toyota FJ Cruisers traded in because the people coudn't see out of them or so they said.
It happens. Rather than be miserable with a car you don't like (and most people love) they will bite the bullet, take a loss and move on.
DITTO!
MY long lost brother ... I have finally found you!
Me, you and jmonroe... the 3 Cheapskate Amigos!
We all knew that all along. What took you so long to figure that out?
Some are "mistakes" people who simply bought the wrong car. some are repo's, some are actual manufacturer official vehicles.
LOL. Always pegged jmonroe as a cheapskate, but considered oldfarmer more in the category of frugal. Nice to know, "We are not alone." :surprise:
I have known people who trade out for a new car every year. Nothing wrong with the car other than it being a year old (that was an issue with these people).
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I don't know, the "reasoned/educated case" based on speculation, provocative questions, hypothetical anecdotes, presumed worst case scenarios, and irrelevant models was mildly entertaining. You must be one of those boring folks who prefers to rely on personal and practical experience or . . . blech . . . relevant data.
The salesman told me the van had belonged to a friend of the lot's owner. This friend used the van for his business and would buy a new one every year. The lot owner would buy the old van from his friend yearly. (yes, it immediately sounded like a load of manure to me)
Pulled the full Carfax when I got home. There was indeed only one previous owner - a major rental company.
Honestly, we would have seriously considered buying that van if it had checked out mechanically ok and there was no troublesome damage history. The lie was so blatant though we quickly dismissed the van and the dealer from further consideration.