My Salesperson Misled Me

mattandi

The whole point of the non-refundable part is to protect the seller in case the seller incurs any costs prior to the closing of the sale, not just to demonstrate commitment on the buyer's part although it does have that effect. Those costs are what the law sees as damages, and losing another potential sale may also be seen as damage. Having another buyer lined up would provide essentially the same protection to the seller as the original deposit. In the absence of damages, courts may be reluctant to enforce any non-refundable clause. Attorneys like to be a little more certain than that. I'm pretty sure that's why the attorney first asked about damages. Not much sense in being punitive to the buyer if the seller is otherwise covered.

jmonroe

And make sure the mirror assembly is NOT on the car when you paint it. We don't want to get over spray on the rest of the car.

Now you tell me as I stand here with a can of rubbing compound in my hand. Any other tips before I burn through the over spray, paint and primer with my handy dandy 3 horse power 25,000 RPM buffer?

jmonroe

ajek4423

Can a salesman have a car titled in his name and sell it to a consumer as a program car owned by the dealership?

volvomax

No. A car titled to an individual isn't owned by the dealership.

ajek4423

Thanks for the reply. I bought a car from a dealership and was first told it was a demo. After discovering a few things about the car I ran a carfax and found out it was a program car. I went back to the dealership and questioned the salesman. He said he told me it was a program car he was demo-ing. I did my own investigating and found out that the car was titled in the salesman name. I called the owner of the company and he said that all his salesmen have their car titled in their name for insurance purposes. THat way if they were to get in an accident the company could not be sued!!!! He said that many dealerships are doing this. I personally think that this salesman did a quick in and out deal with his personal car and made money off of me. Have you ever heard of the practice of having salesmen title the car in thier own name and selling it as a programed vehicle?

volvomax

I have NEVER heard of a dealership having a car titled in a salespersons name.
First of all, if you are flooring the car(bank owns the car dealer makes monthly payments) the car MUST be titled to the dealership.

Now, the term "program" car means absolutely nothing.
Most program cars are ex-rentals. Program cars are no better or worse than any other used car.

What probably happened was that the salesperson signed the title over to the dealership, and then they signed it over to you via the dept of motor vehicles.
So, technically, you bought the car from the dealership.

isellhondas

Thank you.

I don't know for for the life of me where the term "Program Car" came from.

Maybe "Rental" means something bad to people or something?

volvomax

That's gotta be it.
Plenty of people here seem to think all rental cars end up in demolition derbys.

oldfarmer50

"...Maybe "Rental" means something bad to people or something?..."

Nah, the image of dozens of yahoos burning rubber in the car I'm thinking of buying brings up nothing but positive meaning to me. In fact I search YouTube first to see if there are any cars on there I'd like to purchase. :lemon:

The term "program car" was no doubt thought up to conceal the true past of many rentals.

Now, you may be right that rentals are every bit as good as Joe six-pack's trade in but the perception is out there that they are not.

isellhondas

I've bought two ex-rentals in the past an had nothing but good luck with them.

You're right, it's the perception.

mattgg1

I've bought two ex-rentals in the past an had nothing but good luck with them.

You're right, it's the perception.

I don't think your sample size of 2 is enough to conclude that the stigma of ex-rentals is simply "perception".

While you have had good luck with your two vehicles, what about the tens of thousands of other rental cars for sale out there? As the previous poster mentioned, just take a look on You Tube for how rentals are treated.

I personally drive far different in a rental than I do in my own car. Foot to the floor at every green light, severe late breaking at every red light, squealing tires around turns. Yes, it is childish, but I want full enjoyment for my rental dollar, and I would never dare to drive my own car like that.

And judging by the physical and mechanical condition of most rentals I've been in, many people treat these cars the same. They all have some form of scratches/dents/dings on the outside or stains/dirt/sand on the inside. I don't care how well these cars are "reconditioned", they are still disgusting and abused.

volvomax

Well, we sell dozens of ex-rental cars every year.
No issues with any of them.

The vast majority of people don't abuse rental cars. They need them to go to meetings, for vacations or if their own cars are in the shop.
Yes, some yahoo's do abuse them. But, thankfully, those yahoo's are few and far between and should be ashamed of themselves anyway.

mattgg1

Well, we sell dozens of ex-rental cars every year.
No issues with any of them.

The vast majority of people don't abuse rental cars. They need them to go to meetings, for vacations or if their own cars are in the shop.
Yes, some yahoo's do abuse them. But, thankfully, those yahoo's are few and far between and should be ashamed of themselves anyway.

Let me ask a few questions. Which would the average person take better care of...
1) Their own personal car or one rented from a huge company for a day or two?
2) A car they personally paid a large sum of money for or one they rented for $50-$100?
3) A car they must drive for several years or one that only needs to last for a few days?

Lastly, which is a more desirable used car...a one-owner vehicle or a one-hundred-owner vehicle? I see/hear lots of discussion, both private party and at dealers, touting how a car has had only a single owner. When buying an ex-rental, hundreds of different people have driven that car.

I don't doubt that there are lots of rental cars that have performed well after being sold. However, my point is that all else being equal and given a choice between the two, an ex-rental is the less desirable option.

Would you disagree? If so, what makes an ex-rental better?

volvomax

I've been selling cars for 16 yrs now.
I have seen some pretty ratty customer trade-in's.
I've seen people skimp on servicing their existing cars.
I've seen people lie about the fact that their "creampuff" one owner car was in an accident.

In my PROFESSIONAL opinion, an ex-rental has absolutely no disadvantage to the average customer trade in.
As for an advantage, the average customer trade-in is 3-4 yrs old.
The average rental car is 1 yr old.

imidazol97

The rental would pose a higher financial risk to the renter because if damaged they can face lots higher costs for repair at the whims of the rental company, who charges for lost rental time (alleged), and who has the local shop do the repair at a high price since the renter is long gone--unless the renter took the extra insurance...

The rental gets serviced on a regular basis. People and their own car often skip the service or take it to a cheap shop who puts in who-knows-what oil...

Are you able to tell me the single owner car was properly maintained? I see the vans doing the service on rental cars when I go by the airport.

I've been looking at the rentals for a car for about a year now. I wish I had bought a couple in hindsight, but that's water under the bridge, or pavement under the tires, now.

Current market right now is over-valuing 4-cyl rentals which is what I'd like to pick up.

isellhondas

" Yes, it is childish"

You said it and I agree.

I doubt if one peopsn in a thousand would abuse a rental car like you do.

" full enjoyment"

I used to enjoy driving like that when I was sixteen.

People who are afraid of buying an ex-rental shouldn't buy them.

For the others, they can be great buys!

obyone

I would agree as a frequent renter that they are better maintained than the average consumer. One thing I didn't like when looking at rentals as a used vehicle is that they are often not optioned on the higher end more like plain vanilla. Guess that's how the rental companies get the best deal on them.

Hating minivans I rent mostly Towncars due to the five star crash rating. Boring yes, fun no, showing signs of aging? Probably.

jipster

I wouldn't buy a low end rental, whose demographic is likely 25-30 years old, male, and more than likely a "yahoo". I would think these are more likely to be ragged out and abused.

Mid-sized family sedans, minivans, midsize and larger SUV's... would be a safer bet.

mattgg1

volvomax and isellhondas -

I certainly agree with you that ex-rentals can turn out to be perfectly fine cars, and there are privately owned cars that can be total junk.

My only point is that, on average and all else being equal, an ex-rental is less desirable than a privately owned car.

Of course, there are many people who do not maintain their cars properly. But I have yet to hear a convincing argument that a rental is better taken care of overall. Sure, rentals get an oil change every 3K miles, but what about all of the other aspects of the car that are worn & abused.

Lastly, have either of you ever used or heard the pitch about a used car being a "1 owner vehicle"?

I see/hear this all of the time by private party sellers and dealerships. Why is this pitch used, if as you claim, a rental driven by literally hundreds of people is just as good?

I never see/hear dealers advertise inventory as being former rental cars!! If anything, I've had them attempt to hide a rental car's origins.

qbrozen

Why is this pitch used

Like they've said, because of perception.

Same reason why "owned by a little old lady who only drove it to church" is a desirable vehicle to alot of buyers. But, in reality, that car was severely undermaintained because it was only driven 3k per year and only received an oil change once per year and never got a new timing belt, water pump, plugs, wires, etc. Again, perception is not reality.

oldfarmer50

"...Why is this pitch used..."

"...Like they've said, because of perception..."

Isn't that the definition of a "Salesman Misleading Me"?

qbrozen

Only if its a lie. ;P

madmanmoo

I completely agree regarding your opinion on rentals. I'm not sure what the other 2 salesguys are thinking. Perhaps in Candyland, where they reside, rentals are treated better than someone's personal automobiles, but not where I come from.

When I sold Nissans, we would regularly buy rentals to put on the used lot. They always had super high miles, (25k-30K in one year) and always showed some excess wear and tear. I don't think anyone in their right mind would think these vehicles had never seen abuse. Hell, I'm scared of service loaners for the same reason.

Isellhondas does this on a regular basis. He states an opinion and instead of clarifying or backing down from it, he defends it in the face of all logic and reason. It's not unusual. Pay no heed.

isellhondas

We buy ex-rentals too but we cherry pick them. We won't buy a rough one and carefully inspect the ones we do decide to buy. I sounds like your guy bought the high mile, rough ones that we wouldn't touch.

As I said before, I have owned two ex-rentals. One from Avis and one from Hertz and both were just fine. In my former life, I rented dozens of cars. I never drove one any differently than my own cars. I have been a passenger in many rental cars and the drivers drove them normally.

I don't doubt that some get abused. A lot of non-rentals get abused too.

Once again just to "clarify" myself...if a person is afraid of an ex-rental, just don't buy one. Very simple

qbrozen

Perhaps in Candyland, where they reside, rentals are treated better than someone's personal automobiles

Hmmm... both you and matt seem to be indicating that vmax and isell somewhere stated that ex-rentals are better than or preferred to privately owned autos. Maybe I missed it, but I'm pretty sure no such thing was ever stated.

I believe they merely said they are on equal ground. And, frankly, I'd have to agree. Are there badly treated rentals out there? Sho nuff. But surely you don't contend that ALL privately owned vehicles are treated better. Abused vehicles live on both sides of the fence.

madmanmoo

We won't buy a rough one and carefully inspect the ones we do decide to buy. I sounds like your guy bought the high mile, rough ones that we wouldn't touch.

Fair enough. I suppose that's a point well enough taken. My U/C dealer may have just been snagging the cheap nasty ones.

It may very well be perception for me, but I've seen a large amount of rough rentals. Then again, as you guys mentioned, I've seen my share of very rough 1 owners too.

I guess I'll just always buy new.

isellhondas

It's not uncommon for our Used Car Manager or our buyer to attend a auction where they are running a bunch of ex-rentals through and come back empty handed. We are very picky about what we sell.

After spending almost 20 years in the tool business, I also know for a fact that the various rental companies will vary in their maintenance schedules. Without mentioning any names, I will say some of the low end places will skimp on maintenance and keep their cars too long.

jipster

I'm not sure what the other 2 salesguys are thinking. Perhaps in Candyland, where they reside

LOL... that would be Lord Liquorice and Mr. Mint you are referring to. :P

I've always wondered about the break in period a new car is suppose to go through. No excessive speeds, hard starts or stops, prolonged periods at the same speed... all things that are all too common with a new rental.

qbrozen

More and more often, I am hearing this sort of break-in is not necessary on cars built these days.

fezo

I had been under the impression that break in periods are long gone.

I know this makes me the odd duck but I don't abuse rentals either. If I screw something up on it (not that I do) or get it into an accident (again never) my insurance company pays which means down the road I pay. No thanks.

I bought one ex-rental and it was fine. A Sebring convertible that had been a rental in Orlando! The family outgrew it before any problems popped up. It stayed in the family until it hit somewhere in the high 80K range (my brother bought it) and still didn't take a lot of work. I will grant you that this is a small sample.

Whether I'd buy a rental would probably depend more on how much I trusted the dealership. Maybe I'll have to drive cross country and check with isell next time...

isellhondas

Break in isn't critical on modern cars.

I remember on old air cooled VW's, they told us to drive the hell out of it from the beginning to insure a good break in!

explorerx4

the last couple of rental/loaners i had were an 07 kia rio and an 07 ford edge.
the kia had about 10k on it. it could run 75 on the highway easily. the only things that bothered me were the manual door locks(it had roll up windows too) and the engine kind of rough. got some condescending looks from the other parents who rented suvs for family weekend, too.
i almost threw out my right shoulder a couple of times trying to unlock the right rear door from the driver's seat.
after 250 miles, i could barely squeeze 6 gallons of gas in it.

the edge (enterprise loaner) had 34000 miles on it. i beat on it all week(5 over and running the a/c all the time). it came right out of the car wash to me. when i got it home i cleaned up the alloys and the exhaust tips. just enough to make it nice. the tires pressures were right on. the cloth interior had a lot of stains, which i did not bother cleaning. the driver seat was really comfortable. the one time i got on it, the engine jumped to over 6500 in about a second. nice ride.
a test drive should be enough to decide if it something you want to buy.

obyone

I noticed that cars from Enterprise tend to be a lot dirtier than the other rent a cars. Not sure why but stains of the juice variety tend to make up much of the upholstery and carpeting not to mention about a pound of sand.

explorerx4

years ago, my vehicle was in the body shop for 7 weeks getting rebuilt. i had 2 different enterprise loaners during that time. i spent many hours cleaning them, inside and out.

oldfarmer50

"...i spent many hours cleaning them..."

Why would you do that? :confuse:

The only recent loaner I've had was a Mazda 5 for a week. I didn't beat on it but since it was so different from what I usually drive I ran it through it's paces to see what it could do. I'm sure that most people who rent do the same thing.

Now if it was my car I probably would back off on the "testing" after a while. As a rental the next guy would get in and do the same thing, over and over. That's where the extra wear and tear comes from.

Isell says his dealer is very picky about buying ex-rentals. I'm sure he is just as picky about private trades too. If I was in his area I'm sure I would trust his store to pick winners from either source. All things being equal, I'd buy the private party trade.

nortsr1

Private party sellers "sometimes" can show all the dealer service records....not all can do this, but some can. when you buy a rental, does the selling agency (Hertz,Avis, Enterprise, etc.) provide the maintenance records????
Isell...how does your auction buyer know the good from the bad...Does the auctions provide the maintenance records???? or does he go by mileage and "condition". I am not familiar with what Manheim auction and the other big ones provide as to records, mileage and condition.
For example, when I sell my used vehicles (usually on Craig's list or local paper, I always state that my vehicle has been "dealer serviced" with all records available!!

qbrozen

Depending on the vehicle, you can get records from the dealer. I know, for instance, any volvo dealer can pull the full history of a vehicle (as long as it was serviced at a volvo dealer, of course).

isellhondas

Nobody sees maintenance records on auction cars,

A good used car guy can tell the good from the bad usually.

604doc

I just rented an Impala from Alamo a few weeks ago. I was on a business trip in Ohio, but the car had Mass plates, so it had been around. It was a little rough. The worst part was that the inside of the windshield was filthy, but I didn't realize how bad it was until the setting sun hit it. I had to buy some glass cleaner and clean it up. Otherwise, I wouldn't bother cleaning it at all. I usually throw out any accumilated trash during the last fill up though.

volvomax

My only point is that, on average and all else being equal, an ex-rental is less desirable than a privately owned car.

Problem is, the average rental car is a year old at resale time. The average customer tradin in is 3-4 yrs old.

If someone wants a year old car, in order to maximize remaining warranty, chances are they are going to have to buy a rental.

Lastly, have either of you ever used or heard the pitch about a used car being a "1 owner vehicle"?

I see/hear this all of the time by private party sellers and dealerships. Why is this pitch used, if as you claim, a rental driven by literally hundreds of people is just as good?

Well, a rental car is owned by one entity.
You can have a one owner trade in,but the car was driven by the kids,in-laws, neighbors and was backed into a light pole, or sideswiped a mail truck, or junior drag raced it on Sat. nite.
In the end, you just never know.

volvomax

When I sold Nissans, we would regularly buy rentals to put on the used lot. They always had super high miles, (25k-30K in one year) and always showed some excess wear and tear. I don't think anyone in their right mind would think these vehicles had never seen abuse. Hell, I'm scared of service loaners for the same reason.

Sounds like you had a typical, don't care what he peddles U/C manager.

If he was willing to pay a little more, he could have gotten nicer rental cars.

oldfarmer50

"...you can get records from the dealer..."

I think most shops, dealer or indie, have all repair work on computers now. Yesterday I had my car in for service and I couldn't remember if a particular belt had ever been changed. He pushed a few buttons and there it was, changed in 2005.

I think where you run into problems with dealer records is when the customer used other repair facilities. If the customer ducked into the local Jiffy-Lube for most of his oil changes it might look like very long oil change intervals if you just had the dealer records.

I would usually value a car higher if the private party seller had all service records. Trouble is, when they do they usually charge too much for the car.

jipster

I would usually value a car higher if the private party seller had all service records. Trouble is, when they do they usually charge too much for the car.

Ain't that the truth. It's like having service records gives "private party seller" the lisence to charge high retail.

fezo

The Enterprise comment caught my eye.

Last year, after my daughter's unfortunate initiation into what an oil light was there for, I rented a car for a week from the local Enterprise. I've had a thing or two before from them and they were fine for a rental but this time I got an 07 Malibu that stunk to high heaven. The car itself was no great shakes but the smell was intolerable. The next day I was in and said I'd trade it for anything they had. Spent the rest of the week in a Kia Optima.

isellhondas

A Kia Optima?

That was better than a stinky car?

chikoo

I have for most parts rented cars from National, and their cars are impeccable.

cccompson

Not always - just bought a nice '99 Lexus LX470 at a fair price. The original owner had no records whatsoever but said it had always been serviced at a Lexus store (initially in CA and the past couple of years here in Ohio). Boy, he wasn't kidding - the service history at Lexus from new was religious and extensive. It also showed that the common problem areas had already been addressed.

isellhondas

" Sounds like you had a typical, don't care what he peddles U/C manager"

Of course, "someone" ends up buying the culls that the good stores won't buy.

If the bidding stalls at a low number, someone will always buy hoping they can find a buyer who doesn't care about anything than a low price.

I'm just glad we don't do this. I don't like making excuses for rough used cars.

isellhondas

With gas prices as they are, you probably got a steal on that LX470!

Great cars but ohhhh, the gas mileage!

tedebear

Great cars but ohhhh, the gas mileage!

Lexus LX470 Engine: 4.7L V8. Fuel Economy: 18/14 mpg.

My goodness. :surprise: