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Nobody, as they didn't have the choice. Olds and Buick dropped the Ninety-Eight and Electra midway through 1984 to make way for the FWD versions, which made their debut in April 1984, as 1985 models. That prompted some buyers to just go for LeSabres or Delta 88's instead, and GM capitalized on this by making the top trim levels of these models roughly comparable to the old Electra/98. My grandmother's '85 LeSabre Limited, for example, had '84 Electra seats. It was still smaller than an '84 Electra though, so it still didn't have quite the cachet.
Then, after 1985, the RWD B-body Delta and LeSabre were dropped. Considering how common these cars were, as well as the larger RWD C-body, I'd say that most people, rather than trade for the new models, just held onto what they had since there was nothing else remotely like it on the market. Heck, just up until a few years ago, the 1985 Delta 88 made Missippi's top ten stolen cars list!
Heck, even to this day, when you figure Lemko's style of Brougham hasn't been built since 1992, I still see a good number of them around.
I think a similar thing happened in the late 1970's, with the first wave of downsizing. GM pretty much blew the competition away with the downsized full-sized cars in 1977, but there was still a large contingent who prefered the old mastodons. As a result, there are still a good number of late 70's Newports, New Yorkers, and Continental Sedans and Town Coupes around, to this day. And I swear just about every Mark V ever built survived. Seems like the big '77-78 LTDs and Marquises have just about vanished. And most 1977 Gran Furys and Royal Monacos were either sold as police cars or taxis, so it's rare to see one of them anymore.
GM's nav is free, too. I too, can go on my screen, type in a destination, and VOILA!!!! Destination comes up!!! FREE!!!!
OnStar is NOT a substitute. We can argue about the $28.90 monthly charge for the directions and connections plan, but there is NO NAV system out there that will look up a destination for you, download the directions to your NAV, Call and make reservations for you, or allow you to look up the directions from MapQuest and have them sent to your NAV for FREE!!!
Don't do that! You'll only encourage him....
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't I read somewhere that many (most?) of GM's models have no NAV available (other than OnStar) where competitors' similar vehicles have that option? Because GM wants to get you to subscribe to OnStar?
I know that if you have a Ford with SYNC then if you are in an accident, the car will dial 911 through bluetooth to YOUR OWN CELL PHONE and play a recorded message with GPS coordinates, then allow you to talk. All that with no fee other than the one you already pay for your cell phone service!
I can get a factory NAV in a Mazda 3 - how about the Cobalt? Cruze?
I can get a factory NAV in an Accord - how about the Malibu? The LaCrosse? The Impala?
I can get a factory NAV in a CR-V - how about an Equinox?
(asking seriously - I don't know the answer to the GM questions)
Good question. I'm not that familiar with late model GM products, so I went on-line and checked out the availability of a NAV system on the 2011 Malibu.
All I can find available is NAV thru On-Star...which provides several additional services...
http://www.edmunds.com/popupinfo/telematics/onstar.html
Rather expensive for a NAV system, at $299/year.
Just as a reference, one can get (for $2100... 7 years subscription rate of On-Star) the iDrive setup on a 3-series BMW, which includes a lot more than just NAV. And, you also get 4 years of BMW's version of OnStar (BMW Assist) included in the purchase price, along with HD radio (The extra 3 years cuts the difference in price down by $900).
Two very different cars, though.
Of course, the larger problem that I have had with GM in the past is that they were extremely reluctant to provide Bluetooth connectivity, instead attempting to force the buyer to subscribe to and use On-Star.
It's not offered in the Mailbu though, and I don't think it's in the Impala, nor was it in the W-body Lacrosse. The redesigned Lacrosse has it, however.
The Cobalt and Pontiac Pursuit/G5 didn't offer it, but it looks like the Cruze will. At least, in googling pics of Cruze dashboards I'm seeing Nav screens. I guess those could be prototypes though?
I can sort of understand the Impala and Cobalt not having it, as those designs are fairly old, and GM probably decided to just wait until the new versions came out. But they dropped the ball, IMO, with the Malibu, as it was just redesigned for 2008. However, it was more of an evolutionary design and not as all-new as GM would like you to think. The 2007 Saturn Aura, and even the 2005 Pontiac G6 and 2004 Malibu/Malibu Maxx are earlier renditions of this platform.
The fact that you can [ hands free ] call the OnStar advisor and [ for example ] ask for directions to the nearest [ next, in my direction of travel ] Cracker Barrel, while driving on the Interstate, is worth something – to me.
Given the price [ I initially bought 5 months for less than $10/month ] and the fact that the system is completely integrated I believe that it is worth that money. And I decided to renew at expiration time – for a few dollars more per month.
[ I would personally prefer not to mount \ dismount & hide a portable GPS - though I can see the attraction. Having some experience with both my Daughter’s Garmin portable & a couple of in-dash systems, I was quite impressed with how well this Directions & Connections system works – and I found it very ‘unobtrusive’ as well. ]
I have used MapQuest to save destinations – sent them to OnStar and used them for directions. Works very well.
The fact that it does not provide the lane you need to be in for a particular up-coming turn is a minor missing feature – and one I’d find useful occasionally. At least it does tell you, as you approach a major intersection, if you will need to turn left or right.
For the entrance to an Interstate [ or other divided highway ] where I do not know the layout is one example of where this comes in handy. If I know I need to end up driving “left” after I enter – it is often not obvious as I approach if it is a ‘cloverleaf’ style = turn right & loop 270 degrees, or an approach where one turns left [ 90 degrees ] & the on-ramp is basically straight & immediately parallel to the direction of travel.
When the surface street is 4 or 5 lanes wide & the traffic is heavy, just knowing well in advance if I will be turning right or left can be very useful information.
Some Interstate signs I have seen now do give some advanced warning – that I85 South is a right turn \ entry & North is a left turn, for example. But not all – and often not far enough in advance.
I have found that if you typically have a co-pilot in the right seat, a paper map and \ or MapQuest [ or maps.Google.com ] printed directions are usually fine. When driving alone - and particularly at night, and in unfamiliar areas, I find this OnStar nav. implementation to be a valuable tool. And worth the money – to me.
The level of detail in both the spoken directions \ warnings \ reminders & the central Information Center display of turn configuration and distance ‘count-down’ has proven sufficient for my purposes. I have no need or desire for a full color map display in my dash.
Obviously, there are other features missing that could be of interest to some – for now, this is enough for me.
YMMV.
- Ray
Not lost, right now. . .
Pricing: At roughly $300 per year, list price, for a typical ownership period of 5 years = $1,500. My experience has been that ‘deals’ are regularly available, if you ask – so my total may be closer to $1,200.
Presuming that you want OnStar ‘regular’ anyway [ I would ], the ‘upcharge’ for Directions & Connections \ navigation system is only $100 per year.
At that price, it is well worth it, to me . . .
Having a built-in NAV is like having a built-in phone. Why limit yourself to 1 vehicle?
The only advantage to Onstar that I see is if you have an accident.
Really - It can
[ hands free ] call the OnStar [ Tom-Tom ] advisor and [ for example ] ask for directions to the nearest [ next, in my direction of travel ] Cracker Barrel...
??
I did not know that..... cool!
What's really cool is that if you press the info key for a listed establishment, it shows the phone number and you push the phone icon and it will dial on your own cell phone, hands free, using bluetooth. So you can, for example, choose a Chinese place ("Find nearest Chinese Restaurant"), select the correct place, push the phone symbol, and call in your order, WHILE you are driving to the restaurant to pick it up!
It's folly to spend a lot of money on one of today's technological marvels and expect it not to be replaced by something better and cheaper.
If people saw a great advantage to Onstar, I'd guess that GM would have never lost marketshare and went bankrupt. Didn't Onstar hit the mainstream of GM vehicles 4-5 years ago, before GPS's, cellphones, and handhelds were prevalent and did all the travel features?
GM should make Onstar a dealer installed option and lower the cost of their vehicles accordingly. I saw the new Cruze starts at $16,999. I guess the typical one on a lot will be $20K+? With the economy the way it is, GM would be better served, figuring out how to make decent vehicles in the $12K - $15K range.
They're working on that, too, with the new Aveo, Beat and Orlando.
Personally, I would've made Onstar standard on all models, and safety and security would be free for the original owner for life. THAT ALONE would probably have been cheaper and had more value than putting obscene cash on the hoods of the cars.
We can argue about the cost of the service, and yes, as technology advances, it WILL put pressure on OnStar to either cut prices or add services or both. But the difference between TomTom and Onstar is like the difference between Motel 6 and Hilton. Yeah, you can use the wifi to look up a restaurant, call them from your cellphone and make reservations and ask for directions (or MapQuest them) at the Motel 6, or you can call concierge at the Hilton and have it done for you. It's just the Hilton costs more to stay at.
Again, we can argue the merits of the costs of each, but one can DO FOR YOU what the other can't.
:sick:
Only CTS shines..not bad because it's the best Caddy in eons. But the Genesis spanks the STS and DTS combined. More and more, the tide turns.
Hey Mr. Lutz...May the Best Car Win! Happy Retirement, Dude! :shades:
Regards,
OW
The main issue I take with the Genesis is the way its sold.... by the same Hyundai dealers selling low-priced cars to the, on the average, customers with less buying power.
The Genesis appeals to a different market niche, and accordingly, its buyers expect a little different treatment. To many, it decreases the brand "value" by having it sit on the same lot next to the $9999 Accent.
Couple that with some of the "salespeople" (I use the term loosly here), and it gets to be a really big marketing issue.
From what I have seen, however, the Genesis is quite the car for the money. However, its got to overcome the resale value "problem" before many luxury buyers take it seriously, IMO.
The only thing I will say is that in the case of the Genesis, Hyundai usually groups the coupe and sedan together. In other words the number is inflated. The coupe is not really a luxury car. Heck the sedan is debatable whether or not it should be considered luxury (but that's another discussion here on Edmunds...) I own one and really feel its more in the class of an Avalon/Maxima/LaCrosse than anything else.
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart
Not around here. Many of the local Cadillac dealers around me are also Chevy dealers, so what's the difference? A few years ago, I was getting my Suburban serviced at my local dealer and saw an XLR on the same showroom floor as a Cobalt:(
And indeed, putting Genesis coupe numbers in as complete model sales figures is misleading at best, if not simply dishonest...not even the most rabid H fanboy can call the coupe a luxury car.
Agree or disagree, the fact is that many upscale buyers are buying image as much as anything else. And, the least-priced car becomes the lowest common denomenator. The irony is that many buying those luxury brands really should be buying the cheaper models, based upon their ability to afford the car.
Lexus and Infinity figured that out early, and created separate dealerships for their luxury brands. Also, thats one reason you don't see MB dealers selling Smarts, and why you see separate dealership areas (even though they may still share one location) for BMW's and Mini's..
Is that still the case where you live now? I can't recall when I've seen a Chevy/Cadillac dealer combo since last year's, ahem, realignment. GM has taken away most all of their small-town Caddy dealers. In fact, in greater Cleveland or Akron, near where I live, I cannot think of a single Caddy dealer that isn't stand-alone.
Let's look at the top of the market, shall we? GM really is sucking wind when it comes to the top car sales.
July 1, 2010; Reuters published this list of the 20 top-selling vehicles in the U.S. through June of 2010 as reported by the automakers.
Total sales of the top 20 vehicles rose 23 percent or 414,363 units to 2,219,647. Following is a list of the top-20 selling vehicles, ranked by total units.
RANK VEHICLE 2010 2009 % Chng
1 Ford F-Series P/U 240,345 179,632 +33.8
2 Chevy Silverado-C/K P/U 166,782 149,949 +11.2
3 Honda Accord 160,970 131,043 +22.8
4 Toyota Camry 154,239 150,242 +2.7
5 Toyota Corolla 140,501 121,643 +15.5
6 Honda Civic 133,601 118,459 +12.8
7 Nissan Altima 112,115 96,428 +16.3
8 Ford Fusion 111,175 85,146 +30.6
9 Chevrolet Malibu 108,317 75,829 +42.8
10 Ford Escape 98,980 76,402 +29.6
11 Ford Focus 89,783 69,354 +29.5
12 Chevrolet Impala 89,491 78,687 +13.7
13 Hyundai Sonata 89,249 60,481 +47.6
14 Honda CR-V 86,870 78,917 +10.1
15 Dodge Ram P/U 84,869 94,516 -10.2
16 Toyota RAV4 81,000 62,241 +30.1
17 Chevrolet Cobalt 77,394 51,676 +49.8
18 Chevrolet Equinox 66,990 25,151 +166.4
19 Toyota Prius 66,039 55,751 +18.5
20 Chrysler Town & Country 60,937 43,737 +39.3
Again, keep laughing at Hyundai.
Regards,
OW
IMO its a nice pony car contender...not "near lux". A leather interior does not a luxury car make. H should put the V8 in it and scare some people, ep if they could do it and not have it weigh 4200 lbs. On the GM subject, I bet someone has cross shopped it with the Camaro.
It makes it look as if Caddy is separate from the other 3 only problem is, the Caddy dealership has no service area and so has to use the Chevy, Buick, GMC for all the service needs and its where all the Caddy loaner cars are.
It must suck for the Chevy, Buick, and GMC owners who come in for service to see all those Caddy loaners and not be able to get one and use the shuttle service they offer. You have to have a Caddy in order to get a Caddy loaner :P Just another great reason to get a Caddy and not a Buick!
But give it 2 years. Here is one view vs. the competition...and Ford had to upgrade the V-6 or it would be a joke.
Gen Coupe does compete :shades:
Regards,
OW
GM which has been in business until they went bankrupt, ran out of tricks...until the government pulled one more out of their hat.
Hyundai learned quick if you make junk you either correct it or die. GM had to die.
What, now all of a sudden, presto, GM is in the lead for good..."Look Ma...We're on Top of the World!"??
Now that would be quite a trick!
Regards,
OW
H seems to be putting every nickel into engine development, rather than unjustifiable dividends or ridiculous executive perks like GM. It's making everyone move forward.
2 years or 5 years, if they continue as I've seen in the past 2 years, Hyundai will gain a nice following that eventually threaten the top end marquees as well as the lazy GM's of the world.
Regards,
OW
Lexus has been here for over 20 years and is still not an enthusiasts choice, and is virtually invisible outside of NA. It will take more than a competitive product to change decades of brand loyalty and positive image/equity.
DI for gas engines has been around since when....2005? GM is finally using it as of 2009?
They keep screwing up. Once they perfected the Fiero.....kill it. Grand national (Buick) kill it.
350? Only for the vette.....the rest can have a 305.
"We'll make our money on trucks" gas goes sky high.....oops.
Shoulda let nature take its course, a dead GM, or much smaller GM would be a good thing.
Well, there was actually some rationale to that. For one thing, the EPA and CAFE would have gotten on their butts if they put the 350 in too many cars. And, once the 350 got more efficient, it did go in more cars, seeing widespread use in the Camaro/Firebird, and ultimately becoming the only V-8 offered in them.
However, that caused new problems, as it started to hurt the exclusivity of the Corvette. I've known a few people who used to get Corvettes, but once the Camaro/Firebird, and then even the Caprice et al started using the LT-1, those people started griping about lesser cars getting the "good" engine...nevermind the fact that the Corvette had moved onto bigger and better things by the time the other cars were getting 350's.
Yep, still there. Check out their website. They've got a $60k plus Escalade parked next to a Malibu.
Sullivan Parkhill Chevy & Caddy
Hyundai doesn't have to worry about that price differential I do agree there needs to be a different level of service for the Genesis and upcoming Equus. But your point blows the argument that GM is something to emulate.
Regards,
OW
Looks like GM may have finally started some honest attempts at changing their image (at least, from the consumer's prospective).
They let Ford kick em in the behind so much by letting you have a 302 in the Mustang, and a higher performing 302 than you got in normal Ford offerings, (like GM did when the finally let you have a 350 Camaro) that guess what?
They killed the Camaro. The redesigned-cant-see-the-front-of-the-car missle didnt sell very well.
By the time GM decides to do the right thing, its too late.
So GM's offer is: take maybe a week off from whatever you're doing, come to the wonderful vacationland of Detroit on your own dime, give us $5,800 and we'll let you work our UAW worker Sam and build your engine. What kind of offer is that if you're already spending $80K+ on a vehicle? A person could go down the Ford-store, buy a Mustang Shelby with 550hp, have free gas for the life of the vehicle, and probably a few trips to Hawaii for that kind of $.
Now if a person has that kind of $ for the vehicle, + has $8,000 to throw away building their own engine, why are they stopping at buying a Vette? If I hit Powerball, am I buying a Vette? No - a Ferrari or an Aston Martin would be a performance, luxury, and uniqueness upgrade.
So GM's offer is: take maybe a week off from whatever you're doing, come to the wonderful vacationland of Detroit on your own dime, give us $5,800 and we'll let you work our UAW worker Sam and build your engine. What kind of offer is that if you're already spending $80K+ on a vehicle? A person could go down the Ford-store, buy a Mustang Shelby with 550hp, have free gas for the life of the vehicle, and probably a few trips to Hawaii for that kind of $.
Now if a person has that kind of $ for the vehicle, + has $8,000 to throw away building their own engine, why are they stopping at buying a Vette? If I hit Powerball, am I buying a Vette? No - a Ferrari or an Aston Martin would be a performance, luxury, and uniqueness upgrade.
I understand what you are saying, and to a point, I agree. (I think its in KY, though)...
Personally, I suspect this program is oriented towards older, repeat Corvette owners who have the Corvette "bug" from the 50's thru 80's. As a whole, this would be the group most likely to have that kind of disposable income as well as the ability to take the time off.
I actually know a couple of folks that would definitely do this program, but, as I stated above, they fit into the described group. I really doubt this program would appeal much to the first-time Corvette buyer (in general).
At the end of the day, though, it does show an attempt by GM to get the consumer more inolved in the vehicle procurement process. To me, that's a sea-change for GM, and also a good thing.
In Europe, its not uncommon at all for purchasers to take delivery at the manufacturing plant (usually an all-day affair for the entire family), and indeed, its a very popular option. Here in the Upstate of SC, there certainly isn't any shortage of folks buying BMW's and taking delivery at the Performance Center (part of the factory operations here), as well as the European Delivery option (7% cheaper than taking delivery in the US) ... a big hit as well.
But, if this is as far as GM goes with it, then it really doesn't mean anything more than them picking a few buyer's pockets for a few extra $1000....
As you said there might be a few people who spend lots of $ on Corvettes or cars (like the Barrett Jackson customers), but that is a small minority. It really isn't worth the national media mentioning that this is some kind of "new-thinking" at GM. It is such a stupid and limited-appeal program, that it gives me a negative-impression of GM management, not a positive one. Maybe BP will be next by offering vacation-packages to help skim the Gulf. They can get the same type people to pay thousands per week to work on a skimmer-boat.
Those people weren't very knowledgeable about "Corvette" engines because that's happened pretty much throughout the Corvette's life, whether it was the late-50s through that time, even now. In the beginning the Corvette got the "lower cars" engine, whether the B-F 6cyl or the SBC from the 55. Camaros, Impalas, Chevelles, Chevy IIs got the "Corvette" engines and vice versa. Silly really.
If they want the German, Korean, and Japanese automakers to take them really seriously and truly competitive, match the level of incentives the foreign automakers and if your still selling more than them, then maybe you have a right to gloat! Until they do, its just a bunch of BS!
Bloomberg reports that GM has already pulled off one of the ballsiest IPO moves ever, by asking banks bidding to underwrite its IPO to use fees to subsidize the purchase of GM vehicles by its employees. According to the report, a GM document sent to bidding banks solicited ideas as to how we can use the IPO to reposition GM and its vehicles within the investment community including your firm’s willingness to reinvest any portion of any underwriting fees into the purchase of GM vehicles for your employees and/or company use.
But anyway let's hear from people here - who's been saving up their pennies to go buy the New GM stock in November? Remember to bid up the price, I want the guvmint to get back their bailout-$.
May the Best Con Win!
Regards,
OW
As far as the IPO goes, I think it's a huge risk. GM isn't doing nearly as well as the "hypesters" want us to believe...
"GM’s IPO: For King, Country, or Cadillac?"
Highest Incentives in the Industry, heavy fleet dumping to prop up sales figures, a potential costly failure with the upcoming Volt, and a looming UAW in their rearview wouldn't exactly give me a warm fuzzy feeling as a stockholder. :sick: