I think GM's timing is going to be absolutely awful on that IPO. I think the narrow window of opportunity was the last 1-2 months. This mini-recovery is just about kapoot, with the economy not even creating enough jobs to cover our population growth, never mind get jobs back for those who lost jobs in the last few jobs.
So with the global economy going flat, and the fed. having used 1-more of their few "bullets" left with no long-term impact in improving the economy, and many layoffs yet to come from the state and lcoal governments, it's not going to be pretty. Certainly people are going to be cautious with their money, and not looking to spend money at large non-necessary purchases. We'll be lucky not to lose 10-20% in the stock markets in the next few months, and there is not going to be any great appetite to buy auto company stocks.
If I were an auto executive I'd still be looking to cut capacity, and ride out the next wave of coming storms.
The best thing GM has going for the future is the Cruze, and more importantly the economical to buyand run Aveo and Spark.
The best thing GM has going for the future is the Cruze, and more importantly the economical to buyand run Aveo and Spark.
The Aveo isn't so economical. It struggles to get decent mpg that much larger, heavier and nicer vehicles get. Add that it is 95% Korean, and it doesn't make it easy for GM to ask its customers to buy US made cars....
The Cruze is a Korean design as well isn't it? I know it's been for sale for a year or so already...
Jeeze, with the crop of Daewoo Chevys, Buick's latest fleet of cars coming from Germany, the next Caprice coming from Australia along with the number of Mexican and Canadian GM vehicles out there, I have a hard time even calling Government Motors an American company anymore. :confuse:
I have a hard time even calling Government Motors an American company anymore.
Well, technically, its a US company in name only, just as Toyota is a Japanese company in name only.
All the manufacturers of this magnitude are global companies, just like Michelin.
That's a difficult concept for many to grasp. Simply put, global companies do whatever is in THEIR best interest, not the "home" country's best interest. They diversify into international operations for a whole hosts of reasons....costs control, moving their manufacturing operations closer to the target market, taking advantage of currency interactions, etc.
However, I have read where the 2012 domestic Aveo production will be moved to the Orion plant in Michigan.
The Cruze sedan is being delivered to customers in European markets right now, and it has been on sale in Korea as the Daewoo Lacetti Premiere since late 2008. It will also be sold as the Holden Cruze in Oceania. Our several drives of the bowtie-badged Cruze with a variety of powertrains and transmissions in northern Spain have shown us that GM has at long last become a global thinker and planner like Honda, Hyundai, Toyota and VW.
"The best is the enemy of good enough." - Mikhail Kalashnikov
The Aveo may be outclassed by other vehicles, but it isn't a bad car in and of itself. My Mom has an Aveo and I'm surprised at how good a car it is for a vehicle so many bash so mercilessly on these forums. My Mom doesn't have a lot of money, so she isn't going to buy a 3-Series or even shell out about $20K for a similarly equipped Corolla. For most lower income people, cost is the primary consideration and the Aveo meets her needs and her budget. If the Aveo is the absolute worst car on today's market, all of today's cars must be pretty darn awesome.
I actually owned a 2005 LT hatch Aveo. It was surprising how roomy the inside was as compared to what it looked like on the outside. I also liked the ride. My wife called it the "toy car".
I had a couple $1000 in GM card bucks, and I used them to buy it for a "city" vehicle.
Mine had all the available options, including moonroof. It never let me down by stranding me, but around 30K miles it started disassembling itself. If my memory serves me correctly, Had the moonroof assy replaced at around 28K miles (it just froze open) and then again around 32K miles (was making a helluva noise when in movement). Door handles came off, the CD player died, started finding misc. screws and other hardware in the floorboards, etc.
When I got rid of it at about 35K miles, the moon-roof was failing for the 3rd time.
The best mileage I ever got was 25 in town and 27 highway, which I was personally satisfied with getting.
For someone who purchased the base model, its probably a decent vehicle. It was the last GM product I purchased.
Later model quality may have improved, but I know there were many,MANY problems with the plastic thermostat housing cracking. Its my understanding that GM replaced the plastic unit with a metal housing in later years.
My Mom's car is more basic and it's the notchback sedan. I'm 6' tall and am comfortable in the back seat.
My 2007 Cadillac DTS is the first car I've ever had with a moonroof. I tried it once and didn't see the point in it. It didn't seem like I was riding in a convertible and I was always afraid something would fall from the sky and hit me in the head. I figure if I opened just the inside cover, the interior would get blistering hot in the sun.
Considering the Ad Machine for the 2011 Regal has just begun like a Democratic Push for the 2010 Elections, consider this:
The Sonata 2.0T's apparent dominance over the power/fuel-econ efficiency of a V-6 begs the question, How does it stand next to other artificially aspirated fours? Well, in light of its turbocharged competitors, the Sonata compares...you guessed it, favorably. The Volkswagen CC's 2.0-liter turbo generates 200 horses at 5100, 207 pound-feet at 1700, and 22/31 mpg; the upcoming Buick Regal doles out 220 horses at 5300, 258 pound-feet at 2000, and 18/29. It's worth noting, too, that the Hyundai, which should start at around $25,000 when it goes on sale this October, will likely cost less than both the VW and the Buick.
Well, How does the Hyundai beat the PANTS CLEAN OFF its comp and BLOWS them into the WEEDS you ask?
For 2011, Korea's stylish family hauler receives a new 2.0-liter direct-injected turbocharged I-4 that generates better-than-V-6 numbers -- 274 horsepower at 6000 rpm, 269 pound-feet of torque at 1750, and 22/34 mpg city/highway estimated fuel economy.
Even the Regal GS will be destroyed value-wise!!!!!!!!!
Read it and weep! GM, Get ready for an IPO that will go in REVERSE!
Just before this IPO, remember, the Dark Force is still lurking......
Some U.S. manufacturers have learned plenty from the innovative way Toyota manages its factories. The UAW, born in militancy, has no intention of changing its culture to one of cooperation or collaboration. The UAW rank-and-file demands a strong, adversarial stance against management. Any UAW leader who forgets this fundamental truth will pay a political price to more radical union elements who are furious that the union granted financial concessions to Detroit automakers in return for the rescue by the U.S. Treasury last year.
King's threats to Toyota also are designed to remind the leaders of the Detroit Three and their suppliers that the UAW will be back to tough bargaining if and when prosperity returns - to regain the union's share of the spoils.
Let The Force Be With You...And May the Best Car Win! :confuse:
Ah, the Aveo, what a horrid excuse for a car. I had one as a rental last year, it was literally the only car they had left. It was loud, clunky, unbelievably cheap and had no power. It reminded me of a 1982 Mercury Lynx we had when I was growing up.
Whatever they cost it's way overpriced. If someone is willing to pay money for this car I want to talk to them, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell them.
Got your point in 2010. But sticking to the '11 Sonata, GM needs to sweat...Big.
We've watched with a sense of awe as Hyundai has gone from a discount also-ran brand into a genuine industry powerhouse in startlingly short order. But we've also long suspected that its vehicles have gained so much ground by being among the best values in their respective segments – not because they've necessarily been the best vehicles to drive. The addition of the Genesis Coupe may have served notice that Hyundai isn't content to just be the industry's value leader (see Battle of the Sixes), but the keystone draw of most of the brand's offerings has remained their affordability. Which is not to suggest this is a bad thing – Hyundai's steroidal growth speaks to the inherent soundness of its strategy. But as enthusiasts, we've been waiting for the company to not only out-value, but to categorically outsmart and outplay its rivals. With introduction of the 2011 Sonata, Hyundai appears to have done exactly that.
Officials tell us that because the company chose to go with a four-cylinder-only lineup, the Sonata's engineers were able to optimize other components because they didn't have to cope with an optional V6 package's larger dimensions and mass. That sort of focus has resulted in a best-in-class power-to-weight ratio of 12.2 pounds per horsepower, a figure just .1 horses shy of Ford's lauded 2011 Mustang V6. Its closest in-class competitor is actually the similarly feathery Nissan Altima V6, which chimes in at a commendable 12.4. Naturally, light weight also pays dividends in fuel economy, so it should come as no surprise that the 2.0T is estimated to return 22 miles per gallon in the city and 34 out on the highway. That's just two mpg shy of the 2.4-liter on the urban cycle and one on the freeway, and both numbers are still well ahead of the competition. Those figures strike us as a small penalty for an extra 76 horses, and besides, the normally aspirated Sonatas we've driven have actually served up fuel economy numbers well above EPA estimates, and we wouldn't be surprised if the turbo manages the same trick.
Regal GS..consider yourself DUSTED! :shades:
While we'll withhold a firm verdict until we can get a production model back on U.S. soil, for the moment, the Sonata 2.0T appears to be an almost supernaturally accomplished entrant in the family sedan sweepstakes. Daring lines paired with unmatched power and freakishly impressive fuel economy has shown that the Korean automaker isn't afraid to innovate. The 2.0T may not yet be the affordable sport sedan of our dreams, but if Hyundai can deliver on its projected price point of under $25,000, it will add untouchable value to what's already shaping up to be a class-leading proposition. If the Sonata nosed ahead of its rivals when the 2.4 came on the market, this new 2.0T is poised to eclipse them completely. Outsmart and outplay indeed.
I understand if your not impressed as your car is one of the best GM's in today's market.
Point being, the market volume is hundee's target and with this type of execution, it makes me smile...BIG!
According to autoblog, the 2.0T will scoot to 60 in 6.5 sec. The 220 hp Regal should scoot to 60 in the low 7's, according to C&D. Not a huge difference. There are other aspects about the cars that people will determine as to what they prefer. If paying $25,000 for a sport sedan was all that mattered, then nobody would buy the Altima, A4, Passat, Regal, 3 series, or any other sport sedan.
Daring lines paired with unmatched power and freakishly impressive fuel economy has shown that the Korean automaker isn't afraid to innovate.
The problem with GM has not been that they've not been willing to innovate --- it's been that their strategy has been reactive/non-existent. They don't know how to place good bets. GM had THREE(!) different hybrid programs, spending hundreds of millions at least. So what did that produce?:
The "mild hybrids" which allowed them to put on a hybrid badge, but did almost nothing for fuel economy.... The "two-stage" hybrids, which were very complex and expensive and have bombed as GM has only put them on large guzzlers.... And the "Volt" which is truly innovative, but preceded by 5 years (!!!!!!) of advertising, freakishly expensive, and nobody yet knows whether this will be more than a multi-million dollar niche waste of time.
GM has placed horribly poor bets on their innovation. Ford has been focused. Hyundai has been laser-focused.
And think for a minute what a new Aveo would buy *used*.
Even a couple of year old Grand Prix is several times the car in every measurable way. And that's a pretty lame used car choice for $10K, to be honest.
No, I didn't. 34 MPG certainly IS impressive. But 30 MPG isn't a dealbreaker either.
I tend to mentally convert today's EPA estimates over to what they were back in the 1985-2007 timeframe, when cars like my Intrepid 2.7 would've rated 29 and my Park Ave Ultra would've rated 27. I guess 30 mpg would've come out to around 33 mpg with those old numbers, while 34 would probably be more like 38?
If something like the new Sonata really could hit 38 mpg on the highway without too much trouble, that would be a pretty impressive feat IMO. But, in the overall scheme of things, it doesn't really save that much. If you did 15,000 miles per year, all highway, you'd use about 394 gallons with a 38 mpg car and 454 with a 33 mpg car. So, you'd save 60 gallons over the course of a year. Even if gasoline shot back up to $4.00 per gallon, that would only save you about 20 bucks per month.
That, in and of itself, wouldn't be enough to sway me, if I happened to like the 33 mpg car better than the 38 mpg car, otherwise.
BTW, even comparing 30 mpg and 34 mpg, the difference at 15K per year, all highway, comes out to around 59 gallons, so, about the same savigs per month.
And the "Volt" which is truly innovative, but preceded by 5 years (!!!!!!) of advertising, freakishly expensive, and nobody yet knows whether this will be more than a multi-million dollar niche waste of time.
A couple of months ago, the VOLT manufacturing plant was featured on one of NatGeo's "Ultimate Factories" shows. Overall, very interesting.
At the end of the show, there was a segment with a driver on a test track, with a cameraman along for the ride. It was running on battery 100%, but the test was to see if it would run a set amount of miles and then convert by starting the gas engine to charge the batteries.
It was obvious the driver was extremely nervous about whether or not the conversion would actually take place and work as intended. After all, it was "make or break" time.
Fortunately, it did exactly as designed, and the driver was absolutely beaming. Talk about a happy camper!
And your point is? Considering the SC 3800 has nearly twice the displacement. How stout is that 3800SC compared to something its own size like Ford's 3.5 Ecoboost with 350ft-lbs of torque from 1500-5200 rpm.
I'd say that 269 ft-lb out of a 2-liter engine is damned impressive! That's not just V-6 territory, that's in range of some V-8's! Well, okay, not cutting-edge V-8's. Ford's aging 4.6 V-8 puts out 265 ft-lb @ 4000 rpm in the Crown Vic. Probably higher than its typical civilian driver base would want to rev it. Chevy's 4.8 V-8 puts out someting like 294 ft-lb, and again, @ 4000 rpm.
One thing that concerns me though...for a little engine to put out that much torque, wouldn't that theoretically be rough on it, and perhaps mean a shorter lifespan? Hopefully the block and such are built up enough to handle that much power.
I was just informing a poster that thought 269 ft lbs beats ALL V6's that 15 years ago, run of the mill GM V6's were putting out better than 269 ft-lbs.
was just informing a poster that thought 269 ft lbs beats ALL V6's that 15 years ago, run of the mill GM V6's were putting out better than 269 ft-lbs.
Well, to be fair, I wouldn't consider a supercharged 3.8 to be a "run of the mill" engine. The non-supercharged 3.8 only put out 230 ft-lb in its later years, less in the older days. Pretty good for its day, though.
I think the old turbocharged 3.8 from the 1980's Grand National and Regal T-type put out around 300 ft-lb!
Well, to be fair, I wouldn't consider a supercharged 3.8 to be a "run of the mill" engine. The non-supercharged 3.8 only put out 230 ft-lb in its later years, less in the older days. Pretty good for its day, though.
Me either. A 1992 Thunderbird SC with a supercharged 3.8 had 315ft-lbs of torque at under 3k rpm. Though I wouldn't say that was the greatest Ford 'mill' ever produced, but torque it had and it certainly wasn't "run of the mill".
"The Syclone was the first production truck to receive a 4 wheel anti-lock braking system. Output was 280 hp (209 kW) and 350 lb·ft (475 N·m).[1] The Syclone, when new, was capable of accelerating from 0-60 mph in 4.6 seconds and could do a quarter-mile run in 13.4 seconds at 98 mph (158 km/h).Car & Driver tested the Syclone and it ran 0-30 in 1.3 seconds with a 0-60 in 4.3 seconds, the 1/4 mile was 13.06. Car & Driver said it was able to accelerate faster than a Porsche 959, ZR-1 Corvette, Dodge Viper, or Lamborghini Diablo." Wikipedia.org On this scale, the Sonata would be a 7, posing as a V6. 20 years later.
Let's see GM get a midsized 4-door car with as much value/efficiency as the 2011 Sonata for the price and beat it through the traps. Come on Regal!
The more I hear about this 2011 Sonata, it just seems too good to be true, almost TOO perfect. I'm sure there has to be a downside somewhere to it? It can't be ALL perfect, can it? Fast, economical, roomy, well-built. The only downside I can see is that it's ugly. But, beauty is in the eye of the beer-holder! :P
**Edit: Okay, I just thought of a GM car that would beat the Sonata. In 1965, Motortrend tested a brand-new Pontiac Catalina 2+2 with the 421 V-8. They got 0-60 in 3.9 seconds. :surprise: But, let's not talk about handling, fuel economy, or how accurate that 3.9 time really was. :shades:
Confusion Abound Just searched for 2011 Sonata and this was the highest output available: Performance Base Number of Cylinders: 4 Base Engine Size: 2.4 liters Base Engine Type: Inline 4 Horsepower: 200 hp Max Horsepower: 6300 rpm Torque: 186 ft-lbs. Max Torque: 4250 rpm Drive Type: FWD Turning Circle: 35.8 ft.
With about 7% lower weight for the Hundai vs. my Malibu, but the same mpg ratings, I'd argue that efficiency is better in the Malibu. I wonder if the extra 31 HP comes in handy as often as the added road noise from skimming 250 lbs doesn't.
Didn't find the 269 hp engine listed. Confusion abound.
Speaking of the Sonata, I think with its full line of value, hybrid and turbo versions, Sonata has a better chance of winning this year's Car of the Year than the competitive but non-ground-breaking Cruze, or revolutionary but overpriced Volt.
The Syclone was the first production truck to receive a 4 wheel anti-lock braking system. Output was 280 hp (209 kW) and 350 lb·ft (475 N·m).[1] The Syclone, when new, was capable of accelerating from 0-60 mph in 4.6 seconds and could do a quarter-mile run in 13.4 seconds at 98 mph (158 km/h).Car & Driver tested the Syclone and it ran 0-30 in 1.3 seconds with a 0-60 in 4.3 seconds, the 1/4 mile was 13.06. Car & Driver said it was able to accelerate faster than a Porsche 959, ZR-1 Corvette, Dodge Viper, or Lamborghini Diablo." Wikipedia.org On this scale, the Sonata would be a 7, posing as a V6. 20 years later.
I don't care if those two heaping piles of crap could out accelerate a Bugatti Veyron.
If the Hyundai's upcoming turbo 4 is only a 7 with 274hp, where do you rate the Regal's 220hp turbo 4?
I wonder if the extra 31 HP comes in handy as often as the added road noise from skimming 250 lbs doesn't.
What's funny is, if the Malibu weighed 250lbs less than the Sonota you'd be cheering about how well GM engineers found ways to cut weight.
I don't know much about the Sonota, but several car websites have tested a 2011 model that's turbo charged with 274hp. I have no idea when it when it will be on sale.
LOL Diesel, I agree completely. Both the Cyclone and the Typhoon were junk.
Throwaways.
Might as well bring up the Dodge Omni GLH (Goes like hell) or the Citation X11 if were going to debate specs but ignore the fact that they were piles of garbage underneath it all.
Good for a few smoky burnouts, but after that I wouldn't want to live with it. I'm sure the cost per mile to drive that thing - fuel, sticky tires, and such doesn't warrant the few seconds of fun you have with it. At nearly 5,000LB it's hard to be sporty! I'd prefer fun on-a-budget all day long, such as with a Mini SC model.
hey, what do yall GM-h8rs think of trailblazer SS?
Well, I don't care for it. I just really don't see the point of it. Sure, it performs well, but it's still based on an outdated platform with a horribly cheap looking interior. I don't care for a Grand Cherokee SRT-8 either.
I feel the same way about it as I do the Malibu SS, Maxx-SS, late model front drive Monte Carlo SS/Impala SS and Cobalt SS.
Not worthy of the "SS" nomenclature.
The Trailblazer? A cheap, chintzy, not-all-that-well built truck with a flabby chassis. Again, the I-6 was it's only saving grace.
JMO though :shades:
I agree except for the Cobalt SS. To it looks so boring and that ridiculous rear wing looks bad, but it seems to have the performance to match and beat it's primary competition.
The Malibu SS was hilariously bad. Take a rental car, stick some SS badges on it and a nothing special 3.9 v6 and you have another forgettable car.
2011 Hyundai Sonata Turbo Base price $24,595 (est) Vehicle layout Front-engine, FWD, 5-pass, 4-door sedan Engine 2.0L/274-hp/269-lb-ft turbocharged DOHC 16-valve I-4 Transmission 6-speed automatic Curb weight 3350-3450 lb (mfr) Wheelbase 110.0 in Length x width x height 189.8 x 72.2 x 57.9 in 0-60 mph 6.5 sec (mfr est) EPA city/hwy fuel econ 22 / 34 mpg (est) CO2 emissions 0.74 lb/mile (est) On sale in U.S. October 2010
Hmm, perhaps Google pulled out of the area due to this UAW thing??
Anyway, always willing to help. Either way, if you get a '11 Sonata 2.0T, you get to see the new Regal and the Malibu in your rear view mirror at all times! :shades:
I live about 5 miles from one of the largest if not the largest volume Hyundai dealer in the country. I am already sick of seeing the new Sonatas all over the road. . I think the styling is overdone with too many competing elements. I don't believe time will be a friend of the design and it will quickly lose its "uniqueness". I am afraid that Honda, Toyota and Nissan will try to outdo the styling in their upcoming models. I am not a fan of the full length crease on cars which came into vogue first iin the 2004 Acura TL and later in the Accord.
The Sonata Turbo performance numbers will not match the V-6 competition, but the mileage ratings are impressive. However Hyundai is taking a gamble on some relatively new technology., notablly DI and Lithium batteries in the hybrid. Audi and Volkswagen have had problems with Direct Injection. The Turbocharger will result in loss of engine longevity. I personally would not buy a Turbo...Hyundai, Volkswagen or Buick. I would prefer a V-6 and pay a little more for gas.
Comments
So with the global economy going flat, and the fed. having used 1-more of their few "bullets" left with no long-term impact in improving the economy, and many layoffs yet to come from the state and lcoal governments, it's not going to be pretty. Certainly people are going to be cautious with their money, and not looking to spend money at large non-necessary purchases. We'll be lucky not to lose 10-20% in the stock markets in the next few months, and there is not going to be any great appetite to buy auto company stocks.
If I were an auto executive I'd still be looking to cut capacity, and ride out the next wave of coming storms.
The best thing GM has going for the future is the Cruze, and more importantly the economical to buyand run Aveo and Spark.
The Aveo isn't so economical. It struggles to get decent mpg that much larger, heavier and nicer vehicles get. Add that it is 95% Korean, and it doesn't make it easy for GM to ask its customers to buy US made cars....
Jeeze, with the crop of Daewoo Chevys, Buick's latest fleet of cars coming from Germany, the next Caprice coming from Australia along with the number of Mexican and Canadian GM vehicles out there, I have a hard time even calling Government Motors an American company anymore. :confuse:
Well, technically, its a US company in name only, just as Toyota is a Japanese company in name only.
All the manufacturers of this magnitude are global companies, just like Michelin.
That's a difficult concept for many to grasp. Simply put, global companies do whatever is in THEIR best interest, not the "home" country's best interest. They diversify into international operations for a whole hosts of reasons....costs control, moving their manufacturing operations closer to the target market, taking advantage of currency interactions, etc.
However, I have read where the 2012 domestic Aveo production will be moved to the Orion plant in Michigan.
http://newcarproduct.com/gallery/tag/2012-chevrolet-aveo/
Looks like the Cruze will be assembled domestically as well...
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128392673
Its been on the market in S. Korea since 2008.
http://www.insideline.com/chevrolet/cruze/2011/2011-chevrolet-cruze-first-drive.- - html
The Cruze sedan is being delivered to customers in European markets right now, and it has been on sale in Korea as the Daewoo Lacetti Premiere since late 2008. It will also be sold as the Holden Cruze in Oceania. Our several drives of the bowtie-badged Cruze with a variety of powertrains and transmissions in northern Spain have shown us that GM has at long last become a global thinker and planner like Honda, Hyundai, Toyota and VW.
about time, don't you think?
The Aveo may be outclassed by other vehicles, but it isn't a bad car in and of itself. My Mom has an Aveo and I'm surprised at how good a car it is for a vehicle so many bash so mercilessly on these forums. My Mom doesn't have a lot of money, so she isn't going to buy a 3-Series or even shell out about $20K for a similarly equipped Corolla. For most lower income people, cost is the primary consideration and the Aveo meets her needs and her budget. If the Aveo is the absolute worst car on today's market, all of today's cars must be pretty darn awesome.
I had a couple $1000 in GM card bucks, and I used them to buy it for a "city" vehicle.
Mine had all the available options, including moonroof. It never let me down by stranding me, but around 30K miles it started disassembling itself. If my memory serves me correctly, Had the moonroof assy replaced at around 28K miles (it just froze open) and then again around 32K miles (was making a helluva noise when in movement). Door handles came off, the CD player died, started finding misc. screws and other hardware in the floorboards, etc.
When I got rid of it at about 35K miles, the moon-roof was failing for the 3rd time.
The best mileage I ever got was 25 in town and 27 highway, which I was personally satisfied with getting.
For someone who purchased the base model, its probably a decent vehicle. It was the last GM product I purchased.
Later model quality may have improved, but I know there were many,MANY problems with the plastic thermostat housing cracking. Its my understanding that GM replaced the plastic unit with a metal housing in later years.
My 2007 Cadillac DTS is the first car I've ever had with a moonroof. I tried it once and didn't see the point in it. It didn't seem like I was riding in a convertible and I was always afraid something would fall from the sky and hit me in the head. I figure if I opened just the inside cover, the interior would get blistering hot in the sun.
The Sonata 2.0T's apparent dominance over the power/fuel-econ efficiency of a V-6 begs the question, How does it stand next to other artificially aspirated fours? Well, in light of its turbocharged competitors, the Sonata compares...you guessed it, favorably. The Volkswagen CC's 2.0-liter turbo generates 200 horses at 5100, 207 pound-feet at 1700, and 22/31 mpg; the upcoming Buick Regal doles out 220 horses at 5300, 258 pound-feet at 2000, and 18/29. It's worth noting, too, that the Hyundai, which should start at around $25,000 when it goes on sale this October, will likely cost less than both the VW and the Buick.
Well, How does the Hyundai beat the PANTS CLEAN OFF its comp and BLOWS them into the WEEDS you ask?
For 2011, Korea's stylish family hauler receives a new 2.0-liter direct-injected turbocharged I-4 that generates better-than-V-6 numbers -- 274 horsepower at 6000 rpm, 269 pound-feet of torque at 1750, and 22/34 mpg city/highway estimated fuel economy.
Even the Regal GS will be destroyed value-wise!!!!!!!!!
Read it and weep! GM, Get ready for an IPO that will go in REVERSE!
May the Best Car Win!!
Now THAT'S what I'm Talkin' 'Bout!!
Here is the Bad News for GM, et al...
Can this mightiest of Sonatas humble its V-6 and turbo-four foes in the real world?
Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/1007_2011_hyundai_sonata_turbo_drive/- - specs.html#ixzz0tttY9ESS
/a>
Let the Games Begin!!
Regards,
OW
Some U.S. manufacturers have learned plenty from the innovative way Toyota manages its factories. The UAW, born in militancy, has no intention of changing its culture to one of cooperation or collaboration. The UAW rank-and-file demands a strong, adversarial stance against management. Any UAW leader who forgets this fundamental truth will pay a political price to more radical union elements who are furious that the union granted financial concessions to Detroit automakers in return for the rescue by the U.S. Treasury last year.
King's threats to Toyota also are designed to remind the leaders of the Detroit Three and their suppliers that the UAW will be back to tough bargaining if and when prosperity returns - to regain the union's share of the spoils.
Let The Force Be With You...And May the Best Car Win! :confuse:
UAW to Organize Toyota? Not Likely
Famous Last Words: "I'll Be Back." Terminated!
You can't make this stuff up! I LOVE it!
Regards,
OW
Whatever they cost it's way overpriced. If someone is willing to pay money for this car I want to talk to them, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell them.
Yeah, but it looks like new owners of those hundees aren't exactly the most happy with their new purchase. Well at the bottom.
We've watched with a sense of awe as Hyundai has gone from a discount also-ran brand into a genuine industry powerhouse in startlingly short order. But we've also long suspected that its vehicles have gained so much ground by being among the best values in their respective segments – not because they've necessarily been the best vehicles to drive. The addition of the Genesis Coupe may have served notice that Hyundai isn't content to just be the industry's value leader (see Battle of the Sixes), but the keystone draw of most of the brand's offerings has remained their affordability. Which is not to suggest this is a bad thing – Hyundai's steroidal growth speaks to the inherent soundness of its strategy. But as enthusiasts, we've been waiting for the company to not only out-value, but to categorically outsmart and outplay its rivals. With introduction of the 2011 Sonata, Hyundai appears to have done exactly that.
2011 Sonata
Officials tell us that because the company chose to go with a four-cylinder-only lineup, the Sonata's engineers were able to optimize other components because they didn't have to cope with an optional V6 package's larger dimensions and mass. That sort of focus has resulted in a best-in-class power-to-weight ratio of 12.2 pounds per horsepower, a figure just .1 horses shy of Ford's lauded 2011 Mustang V6. Its closest in-class competitor is actually the similarly feathery Nissan Altima V6, which chimes in at a commendable 12.4. Naturally, light weight also pays dividends in fuel economy, so it should come as no surprise that the 2.0T is estimated to return 22 miles per gallon in the city and 34 out on the highway. That's just two mpg shy of the 2.4-liter on the urban cycle and one on the freeway, and both numbers are still well ahead of the competition. Those figures strike us as a small penalty for an extra 76 horses, and besides, the normally aspirated Sonatas we've driven have actually served up fuel economy numbers well above EPA estimates, and we wouldn't be surprised if the turbo manages the same trick.
Regal GS..consider yourself DUSTED! :shades:
While we'll withhold a firm verdict until we can get a production model back on U.S. soil, for the moment, the Sonata 2.0T appears to be an almost supernaturally accomplished entrant in the family sedan sweepstakes. Daring lines paired with unmatched power and freakishly impressive fuel economy has shown that the Korean automaker isn't afraid to innovate. The 2.0T may not yet be the affordable sport sedan of our dreams, but if Hyundai can deliver on its projected price point of under $25,000, it will add untouchable value to what's already shaping up to be a class-leading proposition. If the Sonata nosed ahead of its rivals when the 2.4 came on the market, this new 2.0T is poised to eclipse them completely. Outsmart and outplay indeed.
I understand if your not impressed as your car is one of the best GM's in today's market.
Point being, the market volume is hundee's target and with this type of execution, it makes me smile...BIG!
Not so GM! :P
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
The problem with GM has not been that they've not been willing to innovate --- it's been that their strategy has been reactive/non-existent. They don't know how to place good bets. GM had THREE(!) different hybrid programs, spending hundreds of millions at least. So what did that produce?:
The "mild hybrids" which allowed them to put on a hybrid badge, but did almost nothing for fuel economy....
The "two-stage" hybrids, which were very complex and expensive and have bombed as GM has only put them on large guzzlers....
And the "Volt" which is truly innovative, but preceded by 5 years (!!!!!!) of advertising, freakishly expensive, and nobody yet knows whether this will be more than a multi-million dollar niche waste of time.
GM has placed horribly poor bets on their innovation.
Ford has been focused.
Hyundai has been laser-focused.
Even a couple of year old Grand Prix is several times the car in every measurable way. And that's a pretty lame used car choice for $10K, to be honest.
I tend to mentally convert today's EPA estimates over to what they were back in the 1985-2007 timeframe, when cars like my Intrepid 2.7 would've rated 29 and my Park Ave Ultra would've rated 27. I guess 30 mpg would've come out to around 33 mpg with those old numbers, while 34 would probably be more like 38?
If something like the new Sonata really could hit 38 mpg on the highway without too much trouble, that would be a pretty impressive feat IMO. But, in the overall scheme of things, it doesn't really save that much. If you did 15,000 miles per year, all highway, you'd use about 394 gallons with a 38 mpg car and 454 with a 33 mpg car. So, you'd save 60 gallons over the course of a year. Even if gasoline shot back up to $4.00 per gallon, that would only save you about 20 bucks per month.
That, in and of itself, wouldn't be enough to sway me, if I happened to like the 33 mpg car better than the 38 mpg car, otherwise.
BTW, even comparing 30 mpg and 34 mpg, the difference at 15K per year, all highway, comes out to around 59 gallons, so, about the same savigs per month.
A couple of months ago, the VOLT manufacturing plant was featured on one of NatGeo's "Ultimate Factories" shows. Overall, very interesting.
At the end of the show, there was a segment with a driver on a test track, with a cameraman along for the ride. It was running on battery 100%, but the test was to see if it would run a set amount of miles and then convert by starting the gas engine to charge the batteries.
It was obvious the driver was extremely nervous about whether or not the conversion would actually take place and work as intended. After all, it was "make or break" time.
Fortunately, it did exactly as designed, and the driver was absolutely beaming. Talk about a happy camper!
They finally did something right, except you couldnt actually own it........and they killed it, took em all back and destroyed em!
Well there is one, disabled at a museum. Way to go GM.......Why did you go bankrupt?
Was it intentionally disabled? Or, .....
My '96 pushrod SC V6 has 282 ft-lbs.
And your point is? Considering the SC 3800 has nearly twice the displacement. How stout is that 3800SC compared to something its own size like Ford's 3.5 Ecoboost with 350ft-lbs of torque from 1500-5200 rpm.
One thing that concerns me though...for a little engine to put out that much torque, wouldn't that theoretically be rough on it, and perhaps mean a shorter lifespan? Hopefully the block and such are built up enough to handle that much power.
Well, to be fair, I wouldn't consider a supercharged 3.8 to be a "run of the mill" engine. The non-supercharged 3.8 only put out 230 ft-lb in its later years, less in the older days. Pretty good for its day, though.
I think the old turbocharged 3.8 from the 1980's Grand National and Regal T-type put out around 300 ft-lb!
Me either. A 1992 Thunderbird SC with a supercharged 3.8 had 315ft-lbs of torque at under 3k rpm. Though I wouldn't say that was the greatest Ford 'mill' ever produced, but torque it had and it certainly wasn't "run of the mill".
On this scale, the Sonata would be a 7, posing as a V6. 20 years later.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. :P
Let's see GM get a midsized 4-door car with as much value/efficiency as the 2011 Sonata for the price and beat it through the traps. Come on Regal!
Lots-O-Luck! Rather, GM should settle with "Fat Chance" considering their failed, bankrupt historical execution as an auto manufacturer!
Regards,
OW
The more I hear about this 2011 Sonata, it just seems too good to be true, almost TOO perfect. I'm sure there has to be a downside somewhere to it? It can't be ALL perfect, can it? Fast, economical, roomy, well-built. The only downside I can see is that it's ugly. But, beauty is in the eye of the beer-holder! :P
**Edit: Okay, I just thought of a GM car that would beat the Sonata. In 1965, Motortrend tested a brand-new Pontiac Catalina 2+2 with the 421 V-8. They got 0-60 in 3.9 seconds. :surprise: But, let's not talk about handling, fuel economy, or how accurate that 3.9 time really was. :shades:
Because they haven't changed completely. Sure they are building some winners but where was Hyundai in 1965??????????????
What did GM learn since the 2+2 Catalina??????????
Regards,
OW
Just searched for 2011 Sonata and this was the highest output available:
Performance
Base Number of Cylinders: 4 Base Engine Size: 2.4 liters
Base Engine Type: Inline 4 Horsepower: 200 hp
Max Horsepower: 6300 rpm Torque: 186 ft-lbs.
Max Torque: 4250 rpm Drive Type: FWD
Turning Circle: 35.8 ft.
Fuel Data
Fuel
Fuel Tank Capacity: 18.5 gal.
EPA Mileage Estimates: (City/Highway/Combined)
Automatic: 22 mpg / 35 mpg / 26 mpg
With about 7% lower weight for the Hundai vs. my Malibu, but the same mpg ratings, I'd argue that efficiency is better in the Malibu. I wonder if the extra 31 HP comes in handy as often as the added road noise from skimming 250 lbs doesn't.
Didn't find the 269 hp engine listed. Confusion abound.
On this scale, the Sonata would be a 7, posing as a V6. 20 years later.
I don't care if those two heaping piles of crap could out accelerate a Bugatti Veyron.
If the Hyundai's upcoming turbo 4 is only a 7 with 274hp, where do you rate the Regal's 220hp turbo 4?
What's funny is, if the Malibu weighed 250lbs less than the Sonota you'd be cheering about how well GM engineers found ways to cut weight.
I don't know much about the Sonota, but several car websites have tested a 2011 model that's turbo charged with 274hp. I have no idea when it when it will be on sale.
Throwaways.
Might as well bring up the Dodge Omni GLH (Goes like hell) or the Citation X11 if were going to debate specs but ignore the fact that they were piles of garbage underneath it all.
Not worthy of the "SS" nomenclature.
The Trailblazer? A cheap, chintzy, not-all-that-well built truck with a flabby chassis. Again, the I-6 was it's only saving grace.
JMO though :shades:
I'd prefer fun on-a-budget all day long, such as with a Mini SC model.
Well, I don't care for it. I just really don't see the point of it. Sure, it performs well, but it's still based on an outdated platform with a horribly cheap looking interior. I don't care for a Grand Cherokee SRT-8 either.
Not worthy of the "SS" nomenclature.
The Trailblazer? A cheap, chintzy, not-all-that-well built truck with a flabby chassis. Again, the I-6 was it's only saving grace.
JMO though :shades:
I agree except for the Cobalt SS. To it looks so boring and that ridiculous rear wing looks bad, but it seems to have the performance to match and beat it's primary competition.
The Malibu SS was hilariously bad. Take a rental car, stick some SS badges on it and a nothing special 3.9 v6 and you have another forgettable car.
2011 Hyundai Sonata Turbo
Base price $24,595 (est)
Vehicle layout Front-engine, FWD, 5-pass, 4-door sedan
Engine 2.0L/274-hp/269-lb-ft turbocharged DOHC 16-valve I-4
Transmission 6-speed automatic
Curb weight 3350-3450 lb (mfr)
Wheelbase 110.0 in
Length x width x height 189.8 x 72.2 x 57.9 in
0-60 mph 6.5 sec (mfr est)
EPA city/hwy fuel econ 22 / 34 mpg (est)
CO2 emissions 0.74 lb/mile (est)
On sale in U.S. October 2010
Regards,
OW
I think our friend dave must have a UAW version of IE. It doesn't allow competitive non uaw products to be shown;)
Anyway, always willing to help. Either way, if you get a '11 Sonata 2.0T, you get to see the new Regal and the Malibu in your rear view mirror at all times! :shades:
Regards,
OW
time will be a friend of the design and it will quickly lose its "uniqueness". I am
afraid that Honda, Toyota and Nissan will try to outdo the styling in their upcoming
models. I am not a fan of the full length crease on cars which came into vogue
first iin the 2004 Acura TL and later in the Accord.
The Sonata Turbo performance numbers will not match the V-6 competition, but the mileage ratings are impressive. However Hyundai is taking a gamble on some
relatively new technology., notablly DI and Lithium batteries in the hybrid. Audi
and Volkswagen have had problems with Direct Injection. The Turbocharger will
result in loss of engine longevity. I personally would not buy a Turbo...Hyundai,
Volkswagen or Buick. I would prefer a V-6 and pay a little more for gas.