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A straight ICE car getting 30 mpg and driving same distance as GM website example and $3/Gal Gasoline cost would have monthly bill of $120 dollars. And, one can get many different brands/models of cars getting 30 MPG for as little as $18K. Better equipped 30 mpg cars, similar to Volt, you can get for mid to upper $20's, and you don't have to worry about batteries.
Chevy will need salespersons having the ability to sell refrigerators to Eskimos to sell these Volts.
One other thing about the Volt - that claimed 40 mile range on batteries alone - has anyone heard what conditions that was run on? Is that on a flat road at 50mph? Is the AC or heater running? How about lights, wipers and stereo/NAV? And after the batteries have gone 40,000 miles or 4 years of charging, how far will it go on battery-power?
Didn't Ford just get 47mpg on their new V-6 in a Mustang, when you optimize the test conditions?
My electric rates have slightly more than doubled in the 6 years I've had my house. In 2004 I was averaging 7.9 cents per KWH and in 2009 it was around 16.4. So far this year it's only running 15 cents, because I got a rebate check...turns out the gov't thinks the electric company is gouging us. They would never do THAT, now would they? :P
My last electric bill was $303.86, although we've had some brutally hot weather. Same time last year it was around $270, so somehow, the extra heat didn't hurt THAT much.
But, I can guarantee you that if I suddenly had to shell out $600, $900, $1200 for an electric bill, I would be hurting. And I'm sure there are others that would be hurting much, much more than I would be. It wouldn't be sustainable.
My grandmother's cousin had one bill break $900 over the winter! And my worst was $582. Just imagine quadrupling those numbers. Or just doubling them. This Cap and Trade sounds like economic suicide.
Volt Pricing/Marketing = Massive Epic FAIL :sick:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/california-denies-volt-at-pzev-status-tax-rebat- e-hov-access/#more-361732
The contest escalated Tuesday when GM announced it would start the Chevrolet Volt at $41,000. While it costs $8,000 more than the base price of Nissan's Leaf electric hatchback, GM is matching the $349-per-month lease deal that Nissan is offering on its car. Nissan Motor Co. countered by matching the Volt's eight-year, 100,000-mile battery warranty.
Both vehicles will cost more than a comparable gasoline-engine car when they hit showrooms this fall. But their lease deals are competitive with regular cars. That reflects the overall decline in the cost of the cars' technology over the past decade. Even if the automakers have to eat some of the costs, they can still afford to keep the Volt and Leaf within many families' budgets.
The average U.S. new-car payment is about $450, so most new-car buyers can afford a $350 lease, especially when they factor in what they won't pay for gas, said Jesse Toprak, vice president of industry trends at the car pricing website TrueCar.com. General Motors Co. said it would cost about $1.50 worth of electricity to fully recharge the Volt each night.
"The middle-income family in Ohio cannot afford $41,000 plus tax to get a Volt, Toprak said. "But $350 a month is within reach."
Lease and base sticker prices for both models are far lower than earlier electric cars. GM's EV-1, the first widely available electric car, was leased for $477 a month in 1996.
While celebrities such as Mel Gibson and Ed Begley Jr. touted the car's green appeal, GM had trouble getting most people to take the two-seat cars, which had a sticker price of roughly $44,000. The project was canceled after four years and only about 800 leases. One of the few broadly available electrics now on the road is the Tesla Roadster. But it costs $109,000, well out of reach of mainstream buyers.
For those who buy the Leaf or Volt, the two cars also are eligible for a federal tax credit that will cut their prices by $7,500. The Volt's price would fall to $33,500 while the Leaf's would drop to $25,280 -- from $32,780. Some states, such as California, Georgia and Oregon, offer additional tax breaks that will lower the price further. The federal government will phase out the credits when each manufacturer sells 200,000 electric cars.
GM expects to sell 10,000 Volts in the first year and Nissan said it already has 17,000 orders for the Leaf.
Both automakers are also vying to show their cars offer the best features.
The Volt, a four-door sedan which goes on sale in November, runs on battery power for up to 40 miles but has a small gasoline engine to generate electricity once the battery runs down. The gas engine can generate power to run the car another 300 miles.
Nissan's Leaf, which goes on sale in December, can go up to 100 miles on a charge. The car doesn't have a gas engine and must be recharged once its battery is depleted. Nissan spokeswoman Katherine Zachary said the Leaf itself emits no pollution and is designed for people whose daily travels are within its range.
GM says the Volt's big selling point is that drivers don't have to worry about the battery going dead during trips. This so-called "range anxiety" dogged the EV-1.
To give the car wider appeal, drivers must know "they're not going to get stranded," said Joel Ewanick, GM vice president of U.S. marketing.
GM's $350-a-month lease deal is for 36 months with $2,500 down. Nissan's lease plan is $349 a month over the same period with $1,995 down. Toprak said the Volt lease will be heavily subsidized by GM as a way to get people into Chevrolet showrooms.
Nissan also said Tuesday it would sell 500 Leafs to Enterprise Rent-A-Car starting in January in an effort to get more people familiar with the car.
Both Nissan and GM say the base models of their cars will have just about everything that people want as standard equipment, with few options. Both have navigation, multiple air bag and premium audio systems standard, for example. Options for both include backup monitoring cameras. The Volt has leather seats available, while the Leaf has a solar-panel spoiler that generates electricity.
GM will sell the Volt first in California, then make it available in New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, Washington, D.C., Michigan and Texas. Orders are being taken at 600 Chevrolet dealers in those states. The car will be sold nationwide in 12 to 18 months.
Nissan will start selling the Leaf in California, Washington, Oregon, Arizona and Tennessee in December. The Leaf will go on sale in other markets through 2011 and be available nationwide by the end of next year.
AP Auto Writer Dan Strumpf in New York contributed to this report.
I'm sure the government gave GM grants and tax-breaks to develop the Volt, the local government subsidized the Volt factory, and the feds are subsidizing the purchase or lease of the Volt. And then the feds are going to give several thousand recharging units away to the first owners. And who said GM couldn't do this on their own? :P
http://blog.caranddriver.com/chevy-volt-pricing-how-does-it-stack-up/
Where do the governments of the world think their people will be getting the 40-50 Trillion dollars a year needed to buy these Volts,etc. will come from? Year after year.
The US is 1/4 of the world economy and we have a GDP of $13 Trillion.
Home ownership is now being discouraged by the government. It is too expensive.
The road ahead will not show much promise for the switchover of the market from IC to electric. We will forge ahead burning oil until it gets scarce in 30-50 years. Then we will face a disaster. By then, we won't have any money for investment in electric car production. We will still be complaining about how expensive they are. All of a sudden, nobody will have the gas to get to work to build electric cars. They won't be able to build the alternatives. Not to worry, Social Justice will be in full force by then and you won't need to be a contributor to the world to survive.
We'll have to send our brightest minds to the 3rd world (or Amish country) and research 3,000 years of history, to find out how to survive using oxen and horses.
That was Studebaker that made Conestoga wagons back in the 50's. Does GM have the rights to defunct Studebaker designs?
Bring back steam. Jay Leno is ready. he has several steam cars. We'll just burn twice as much coal.
That's a good point, but most people don't buy new cars either. I would guess a decent percentage of households who can afford a $40k vehicle pay more than $7,500/yr in federal taxes.
link title
:lemon:
Is there no provision for 'carry over' of unused tax credit
to the following tax year?
[ My understanding is that there is such a provision
for business. ]
- Ray
Not a tax expert......
:lemon:
[ My understanding is that there is such a provision for business. ]
I was wondering that, as well. I've heard some statistic thrown about that the top 1% of wage earners cough up 40% of all federal taxes, while the bottom 47% of wage earners pay nothing, thanks to deductions and credits. And even more interesting, the bottom 40% actually get money BACK from the gov't!
Is that possible, that you could have so many writeoffs that the gov't actually ends up owing YOU money? I always thought that it was possible to get your tax liability down to zero, but not that they'd start giving you money back?!
I don't know about the Volt credit. I'm certainly no tax expert.
As for business taxes, that's a completely different animal.
30k in 2012 MY
45k in 2013 MY
both Leaf and Volt are $350/mo for lease.
Volt is $600 more due at signing. For that you get a gasoline engine that takes away the possibility of getting stranded. A 50cc scooter is $900 and has no warranty. The Volt should win this choice.
Volt is $600 more due at signing. For that you get a gasoline engine that takes away the possibility of getting stranded. A 50cc scooter is $900 and has no warranty. The Volt should win this choice.
Yeah if you want to lease and drive 12k miles per year. I wonder what the charge per mile is over 12k miles per year.
LOL, me too.
I'd guess most volt buyers would get the credit. I wonder the leasing will effect the tax credit? As your not paying for the whole car upfront.
This is from the IRS regarding the 2005 Alternative Motor Vehicle Credit. The credit is only available to the original purchaser of a new, qualifying vehicle. If a qualifying vehicle is leased to a consumer, the leasing company may claim the credit.
So if that's still part of the 2009 bill, the leasing company gets the credit.
You can get far more proven/reliable energy saving vehicles for much less than 41k bucks. That is even more important now more then ever with the way the economy still is.
For S&G, let's say the Volt will deliver 100MPG. The 4cyl. Malibu gets 26 mpg.
For $13,000 @ $3.00/Gal., you'd have to travel 140,000 miles in the Volt to equal the total cost of the Malibu @ 100,000 miles...until you need to replace the battery which is said to cost $10K.
Said another way, you break even at 140K miles with the Volt and loose $10K for the battery somewhere around then. At that point you could drive the Malibu up to 230,000 miles and break even. Considering an average annual mileage of 15K, the Malibu will be 15 years old by then....worthless. :lemon: :P
Regards,
OW
When it comes to trucks though, they give you a real hybrid. Why do they put the Chevy truck grill on every Chevy car? How the Camaro missed out, I dont know, must have been that movie, but I'm sure they will find a way, same for the Vette.
Actually, if you do a lot of highway driving, the Malibu is competitive...more than what I had thought. It's rated at 26/34. The Nissan Altima hybrid is 35/33, while the Camry comes in at 33/34. Of course, the Fusion is the champ, at 41/36. The Prius blows them all away, at 51/48, but comes with one majory disadvantage. You have to look at it! :shades: So, in some cases, the Malibu might make sense...competitive highway mileage, and a lower MSRP that might help offset the lower city mileage. However, I'm sure most people do more local driving than highway driving, so its niche is limited.
Why do they put the Chevy truck grill on every Chevy car?
I hate that, too. And that truck look has been going on for awhile, now. My '85 Silverado has a plastic body-colored strip that divides the grille evenly in half. I think it looks okay on my truck, as it's not too obtrusive, but on some of the newer trucks, and some of the cars, it just looks swollen. And when the upper and lower pieces end up being different sizes, I think it's awkward...especially when the lower part ends up being larger.
That look might actually pre-date the trucks, though. Chevy cars played around with the "sub-grille" theme from time to time, where you had the main grille above, and a lower accent down in the bumper. The '65 Impala had this look, although it actually had a one-piece grille that passed behind the bumper. The '72 Impala did that, as well. Those were clean, artful styles, though. Some of these new designs look more like they were inspired by the "double grille" effect of a 1961 DeSoto!
Every Caddy didnt look like every other Caddy, well not from the front anyways.
So are we backward thinking when every (put your maker in) has to look like every other car from that company?
Chrysler did that crosshair thing earlier on, though. The 300's used it from '60-65, although it was toned down for '66 (non-letter series, the 1965 L was the last of the Letter Series). They revived it briefly in '79 on the Cordoba "300", and then on the 1980-83 Cordoba LS.
I don't mind it when cars of a certain brand have a family resemblance, as that helps build brand identity. However, when you start mistaking an expensive car for a cheaper car, or it's just a styling theme that doesn't work, then you run into problems.
Hello *****
Thank you for your online request, as you know the Volt is going to be a very limited production vehicle for the first 2-3 years. Demand is going to far exceed supply for this vehicle, initially our asking price for the Volt is going to be MSRP plus $20,000, we are expecting only receive 9 Volts all of next year.
I will keep you in my customer base for when the Volt comes out and I will contact you with any information as I receive it. We are taking orders right now for the Volt, if you would like more information, please let me know and I will be more than happy to help you. Thank you.
***** *****, Internet Specialist
******* Chevrolet
********, CA
In June, a GM spokesperson told Volt-watching website GM-Volt.com, "We also aren't expecting our dealers to overcharge anyone for this vehicle, either, and will monitor the situation closely when we launch. Also added was, "we'll be paying close attention when the vehicle launches and do our best to strongly discourage this kind of behavior, as we always do with any GM-branded vehicle."
Unlike typical gouging for high-demand vehicles, the Volt situation transcends mere dollars and cents and moves into the political realm. Will GM sit on dealers scheming big-time price-gouging on the Volt - a car that features a $7,500 federal tax subsidy funded by the same taxpayers who already bailed out GM?
You like GM products?? Really??
Regards,
OW
The hybrid Malibu is a V6 that gets even better mpg than my 4 cyl. It is rated 34 hwy vs. 33 hwy for the non hybrid 4cyl. 1 hwy mpg for how much more price? You are paying for the performance without an mpg hit. You are not trading for a financial break even point.
What niche are you after? The 70% city driver, the 50% city driver, or the 70% hwy driver. Hybrids make most sense for the first group. They make very little sense to the last group.
The Volt works for the first two groups. So do hybrids. The Leaf is for a very small niche.
My last 4 new purchases were Chevys. I still have 3 of them.
It lost to its competitors fair and square. The price difference is not that great to warrant the lower mpg. If I remember the tally correctly it was:
Fusion > Altima > Camry > Malibu
So, if you do a lot of highway driving, you might as well just get the regular 4-cyl Malibu instead of the hybrid. And if you do a lot of local, just about any other hybrid would be better suited.
GM's hybrid strategy has been a mess from day 1.
While Toyota and even Honda had one system each, costing not that much and providing significant mileage improvements, GM picked THREE different hybrid approaches:
1 - "mild" hybrid - bigger battery, and run the alternator as a generator. Then run the alternator as a motor assist connected by a BELT to the crankshaft. Very little benefit. The 'featherweight' hybrid approach!
2 - "two mode" hybrid - put this highly complex system on the big trucks and SUVs and charge $10K more for it! Did not sell well at all
3 - the Volt. Advertise it for four years in advance of availability. Then charge $41K for a fairly compact Chevy. We will see how successful this product is.
It's flat amount off of the amount that you owe at the end, after deductions and other stuff that reduces your initial amounts. $55600 is the amount that you have after incentives, withholding, credits, and other things. It's about $80-85K to actually get that much owed in taxes unless you have zero deductions, credits, or other ways to lower your taxes.
*Then* it's up to $7500 of the remaining amount. For one year only. And only if you buy versus lease. It's nearly worthless to actual people(corporations and fleets will love it though) That's the real crime about tax incentives. It looks good in the news but it really hard to work the numbers on to actually pull off. At best you get back the money you already paid in to the IRS in withholding.
But with a $41K car loan, you're really not getting much of a deal, since the initial loan is charging interest on that amount and not the numbers after the "incentive". If you add that up, it's far more over the life of a typical loan than the $7500 in potential "savings". Plus, you're helping GM suck more money out of the taxpayer by encouraging their bad habits.
In short, the math on incentives almost never adds up. But it does sound great on the news and makes politicians happy.
GM deserves to be put in jail for this piece of offal. 40 miles was possible in the 80s with a DIY Ford Escort kit. Lead acid batteries and $8000 in refitting costs. $2000 for the car, if that much. Even the electric Rav-4 actually worked properly by comparison. Less expensive, twice the range, twice the cargo capacity and could carry 5 people.
A decade ago. If I was Obama, I'd be looking at GM like an evil overlord who's minions had screwed up on yet another mission. Time to call the toadies in and get a real explanation of what the hell just happened to your plan. Not holding their hand and congratulating them for yet another screwup.
1) I think the styling is waaayyyyy better than the other three
2) It is a domestic nameplate, assembled in the U.S. with largely NA-parts content (the Fusion is built in Mexico...thanks NAFTA)
3) It has the longest powertrain warranty
4) I like and trust my Chevy dealer's Service Dept. personnel
5) My other Chevys have been inexpensive to maintain.
6) Can probably be purchased for less, and on top of that I have GM card savings I can apply--free money
2) It is a domestic nameplate, assembled in the U.S. with largely NA-parts content (the Fusion is built in Mexico...thanks NAFTA)...Camry has higher US parts content. Not thanks NAFTA, thanks *UAW* for those jobs going outside the country.
3) It has the longest powertrain warranty...and it needs it since it is less reliable
4) I like and trust my Chevy dealer's Service Dept. personnel...this is dealer, not brand, dependent
5) My other Chevys have been inexpensive to maintain.... Happy that you have had good experiences.
6) Can probably be purchased for less, and on top of that I have GM card savings I can apply--free money Purchased for less because of poorer market perception and low resale. And if you are using a card for GM points, what are you losing by not having a hotel, FF, or cash-back rebate card instead? Points are not "free".
:shades:
Subjective, but a reasonable position.
2) It is a domestic nameplate, assembled in the U.S. with largely NA-parts content (the Fusion is built in Mexico...thanks NAFTA)
Last time I looked at a map, Mexico was also on the North American continent. Now its YOU who is being subjective, classifying Canada as a subset of the US.
3) It has the longest powertrain warranty
Yes... a warranty propped up solely by the US taxpayer. And, that little "deal" may not live to survive the life of that taxpayer provided warranty.
4) I like and trust my Chevy dealer's Service Dept. personnel
Actually, a very good reason to buy a particular brand of product. A great dealer can negate quite a bit of poor product manufacturing and design defects.
5) My other Chevys have been inexpensive to maintain.
Your personal experience. Others have had a much different experience, so once again, in your own words..."subjective".
6) Can probably be purchased for less, and on top of that I have GM card savings I can apply--free money
That's nothing but a "sucker" play. The GM card ties you in to buying ONLY GM products. You're attempting to justify the car purchase by using the card. Other cards allow you to accrue earnings and apply them to purchase anything. My State Farm card allows me to earn points towards my insurance premium, on any brand car I choose to own.
1) I think its styling is the most boring of the four, maybe tied for third with the Camry
2) Camry and Altima are both built here in USA with a large majority of domestic parts
3) It doesn't have the longest powertrain warranty IF you don't put a lot of miles on your car (meaning the five years is going to come a lot sooner for people, matching the warranty of the other 3 before hitting 100k miles)
4) My local Chevy department treated me like a dog in the street hosed me for every penny I had for almost 30 some years I was with them
5) My other Chevy's were all expensive to maintain and drive
6) Has the lowest resale value of the other 3 so you'll lose more money in the long run when you go to sell it!
:shades:
There is no 100% domestic car. I'm not happy about that, but this is not a world of absolutes (despite some posts on this forum). It is clear that the domestic auto industry employs more workers, also counting suppliers, than the 'transplants'. Besides liking domestic product (less 'alien'-like styling IMO), I think it does the greater good to buy from a U.S.-based company, a product that is assembled here with a high NA content. I'm not going to compare a Camry to an Aveo--those are extremes--but it is certainly possible to buy a domestic nameplate that is assembled here with a high NA-content (meaning US and Canadian parts content per the label). It's not pie-in-the-sky--it's possible with very little work involved.
BTW, GM's warranty has been longer than Ford's since the 2007 model year, before any 'propping up' by the government. And the Malibu has a 'better than average' repair record per CR (the current Malibu, built since 2008). Same as Honda Accord per the CR I looked at in my Dr.'s office this a.m., and better than the Mazda 3 they reviewed this month.