GM News, New Models and Market Share

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Comments

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,056
    I am already sick of seeing the new Sonatas all over the road. . I think the styling is overdone with too many competing elements. I don't believe
    time will be a friend of the design and it will quickly lose its "uniqueness".


    I tend to not like cars where the greenhouse is too big, in comparison with the overall length. It makes them look disproportionate and top-heavy, IMO. Especially if the C-pillar is too far back, in relation to the rear axle.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    edited July 2010
    I was sick of seeing these...

    image

    and these...

    image

    and these...

    image

    I'll take the new Sonata styling over these in a heart-beat(excuse the pun) and particularly over the Chevies of the not-too-distant-past.

    Regards,
    OW
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    I think you forgot the Pontiac Aztek as well! :sick:
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Isn't that the truth. And people wonder why GM went bankrupt? Man, those cars were butt ugly.
  • torque_rtorque_r Member Posts: 500
    I don't believe time will be a friend of the design and it will quickly lose its "uniqueness".

    You are right. The shape of the Sonata is not 'timeless'. However, by the time the styling wears out, Hyundai will have already established itself as a head-turning contender in the mid-size market place, and a new Sonata will be about to go on sale.
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    Sonata came along with a 250 lb lighter car 2 years after the Malibu 6 sp came out and yet can only match the city and combined mpg ratings of the Malibu with an equal displacement NA engine. Some quote that here as Sonata having unmatched efficiency. I don't agree.

    It may be that some of that extra 250 lbs in the Malibu goes into sound deadening materials like the encapsulated mylar layer in the side window glass. The Hundai is bigger in almost every dimension except wheelbase and length. With the shorter wheelbase, higher HP, and reduced weight, the Hundai should do better in the slalom. Right now, the numbers floating around for the DI turbo are not yet fact.
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    The '91 Syclone was rough on most of the edges. By '99, GM was building the 'Truck of the Year' with UAW labor. By '09, Tundra spare tires were falling out from under the frames due to rust. Wouldn't a rusted through frame make the Tundra a $35,000 'throwaway'?
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,056
    I don't think the 2000-2005 Impala was a bad looking car. Just a bit bland, I guess, but inoffensive. I hated the interiors on them, though. They were fairly reliable cars, but there's more to a car than just reliability. Per Eugene Levy when he was trying to sell Clark Griswold a new Wagon Queen Family Truckster... "You may hate it now, but wait till you drive it!"

    I drove one of those 2004-era Malibus once. First car I ever drove with electric steering, and I HATED it! I guess it's something you'd get used to, though? I didn't like the styling of these. Something about it just made them look too diminutive. This was a midsized car, meant to compete with Camrys, Accords, and Altimas, but when I see them on the road, they almost look Civic or Corolla-sized. That front-end was a goofy mess, but when they gave it the minor restyle, as shown on that radioactive-blue looking Maxx, I didn't think the front-end looked too bad.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    My wife purchased a new 2001 Chevrolet Impala and it was such a great car that it inspired her father to buy a new 2003 model. The car was super-reliable and delivered phenomenal fuel economy. I only wish they gave it the proper six taillights. As it was, they should've called the car a Biscayne or Bel Air instead.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,056
    There was a guy at work who had an Impala. I forget what year, but it was the 2000-2005 style. He bought it used, from CarMax. It was fairly reliable, although it did eat the transmission around the 135,000 mile mark, I think. I think he finally got around 175,000 miles out of it before trading it for a used, low-mileage 2006 Lucerne CX.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited July 2010
    My wife purchased a new 2001 Chevrolet Impala and it was such a great car that it inspired her father to buy a new 2003 model.

    My wife had an 01 Impala too. Reliable? Yes, aside from the engine cradle and ISS problems that seemed to plague many GM products (particularly the ISS), But that interior was plain awful.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Wouldn't a rusted through frame make the Tundra a $35,000 'throwaway'?

    I don't know, but every GM product I've had to suffer through IMO qualifies as a "throwaway".
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,537
    The rear ends of those Impalas have always been very unsightly to my eyes. The fish faced earlier 2004 generation Malibus were just silly looking...and I see a definite styling similarity between Chevies of this era - and it's not good. Scary to think that those designers probably made more than the competition. Subpar interiors all around of course, real fleet-grade stuff. That facelifted Maxx SS is probably the coolest non-Corvette Chevy of that era, just for its oddness and semi-practicality.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    What's ISS?
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    edited July 2010
    Intermediate Steering Shaft

    My buddies GMC Sierras and his wifes Suburban went through a bunch of them. Even today, this issue plagues a lot of GM vehicles.

    Signs are sloppiness, knocking and creaking noises.

    #01-02-32-001O: Clunk Felt/Noise Heard From Stering Column, Steering Gear and/or Front of Vehicle During Turnign Maneuver and/or Steering Wheel Rotation (Replace Intermediate Shaft As Directed) - (Mar 27, 2008)

    Models:2001-2004 Buick Regal
    2005-2007 Buick Allure (Canada Only), LaCrosse
    2000-2008 Chevrolet Impala
    2000-2007 Chevrolet Monte Carlo
    1998-2002 Oldsmobile Intrigue
    2004-2007 Pontiac Grand Prix

    This bulletin is being revised to provide new I-shaft part numbers for servicing Allure and LaCrosse vehicles built PRIOR to January 1, 2006. A Corrective Action Summary has been added to this bulletin for quick reference. Please discard Corporate Bulletin Number 01-02-32-001N (Section 02 -- Steering).
    Corrective Action Summary:

    Model Year
    Vehicle Line
    Corrective Action
    2001-2004
    Buick Regal
    Replace using P/N 19179922
    2005-2006
    Buick Allure/LaCrosse
    (built PRIOR to January 1, 2006)
    Replace using P/N 25829292
    2006-2007
    Buick Allure/LaCrosse
    (built AFTER to January 1, 2006)
    Replace using P/N 25828562
    2000-2005
    Chevrolet Impala
    Replace using P/N 19179923
    2006-2008
    Chevrolet Impala
    Replace using P/N 25913681
    2000-2005
    Chevrolet Monte Carlo
    Replace using P/N 19179922
    2006-2007
    Chevrolet Monte Carlo
    Replace using P/N 25913680
    1998-2002
    Oldsmobile Intrigue
    Replace using P/N 19179922
    2004-2008
    Pontiac Grand Prix
    Replace using P/N 25913680

    link title
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Got lucky again! Neither has my wife's 2001 Impala or 2005 LaCrosse experienced this problem. None of my cars are on that list.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    I didn't see the Suburban on that list, but the ISS had to be replaced in mine. Same thing with my wife's Impala. It was an extremely annoying click/clunk when you turned the steering wheel.

    What's sad is there was a TSB on the Impala ISS back in '02 when my wife's went bad on her '01. They were still using the faulty ISS in an '08 Implala? I guess the idea "let the dealer deal with it" is alive and well, at least through '08 anyway.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    There were alot of "under the radar fixes" done according to my buddy who was a service manager for a GM dealer. Many the public never knew about. :blush:

    It was how GM managed to keep as much quality control in line as it did...
  • luvmybuicksluvmybuicks Member Posts: 26
    This board is sure full of Hyundai lovers. If these were such great cars; then why is it I never see a 10 year old Hyundai that is still on the road? Worse yet is a 10 year old Kia. It is not because of low sales...Hyundai sold 300 to 400 k annually units in the 90's.

    Compare the paint on a 6 or 8 year old Hyundai to a domestic, Honda or Toyota..and the paint is always duller on the Hyundai and Kia and makes the car appear even older than it is.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Don't worry, GM will steal customers away from the Asians very soon....

    General Motors agreed to buy auto financier Americredit Corp. for $3.5 billion. The deal lets GM expand loans to customers with poor credit and offer more leases, two areas that GM needs to expand to boost car sales.

    "No Money? No Worries! Buy a GM anyway!"

    Too Big to Succeed. :P

    Regards,
    OW
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,056
    Back in those days, a large portion of Hyundai's sales came from the "credit challenged" market. Screamer ads, "If you have a job, you have a CAR", and all that jive. Often people would buy these cars, couldn't afford to maintain them, so they'd get beat up and discarded once they were no more useful. Or, they would be bought for teenagers as first cars, and would endure a similarly short lifespan.

    I think they were decent cars by 2000, but they had a large customer base that just didn't take care of them. It's sort of the same thing that happens to old Benzes, BMWs, and other luxury cars, once they become used cars, and fall into the hands of those who really can't afford to keep them up. They start looking like crap pretty quickly.

    I still see Hyundai Sonatas of early 2000's vintage on a pretty regular basis, and an occasional XG300 or 350, and they seem to have held up pretty well. I probably see Elantras and Accents fairly regularly as well, but just don't pay attention to them.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Now GM is drooling for the "Credit Challenged". Guess GM is planning for obsolescence at a faster rate!

    Regards,
    OW
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    edited July 2010
    I wouldn't call myself a Hyundai lover by any means so I have nothing to gain in defending them but I see quite a few older Hyundais (not so much Kia) that a more than 10 years old.

    I use this site to guage how vehicles are doing as far as sales, reliability, longevity, etc. I know it's pretty broad bush to paint but look at the mileage on some of these.

    link title

    As far as paint, I can sort of agree that Hyundais color pallete over the years has not been vibrant, nor have their matte-like clearcoat finishes but I could find plenty 6 or 7 year old "Insert brand Here" that looks like hell, especially up here in salt and sand ridden New England...

    A couple of other observations tho as well:

    First, Hyundai was still in its infancy in the 90's having only about 15 years under its belt and was re-emerging from the rough reputation of its early years. They were really still coming up to speed in the industry and I would expect there were still lessons learned in the paint and sealant process.

    Second, Hyundais, especially of that generation were still sold on the cheap so I would imagine a majority of the owners who bought them weren't going to go out and spend the time, effort or the $$$ on detailing, or simple washing/waxing...

    I will say this though. Back a few years ago I was at the New England Auto show and I was admiring how nice the current crop of Hyundais paint jobs were. They were some of the most consistent, orange peel and ripple free paintjobs out there.

    What was even more shocking was comparing a 20 thousand dollar Tiberon and then the gawd aweful paint job on an almost 100 thousand dollar Z06 Vette as well as the lesser sibling being shown at the show was a appalling. :sick: Wow.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    I think you forgot the Pontiac Aztek as well!

    I agree, but BMW took that basic design tenet and made the hit X6, followed by Honda Crosstour, etc.

    What's ugly today is beautiful tomorrow, and then ugly again next week.
  • tbone_raretbone_rare Member Posts: 96
    edited July 2010
    Are you sure you know what you're talking about? There was a Trailblazer LS... the Trailblazer LT series.....and the Trailblazer SS. The SS version did NOT have the Inline 6. It had the big V8. I drove one with stainless dual exhaust....22" wheels....heated leather....sunroof....and it was one bad [non-permissible content removed] vehicle!!! Every time I was out in it, you wouldn't believe all the heads that turned. It was a Trailblazer....but definitely a different breed of cat!
  • tbone_raretbone_rare Member Posts: 96
    I'm a GM man....but the dude that designed the Aztek MUST have been on crack! One of the ugliest vehicles in the history of the world!!! Pontiac dealers almost puked when GM introduced them! Not only should those designers have been fired...they should have been SHOT! LOL
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,056
    I think the Aztek was actually a trendsetter, but in all the wrong ways. If you notice, automotive style was a bit more clean and conservative before the Aztek made its debut. The cars weren't always exciting, but at least they tended to have proper proportions, the fronts meshed well with the backs, all the creases and tucks were more or less where they should be.

    But ever since the Aztek, it seems like a lot of things started getting exaggerated. Headlights, taillights, grilles, random creases and slashes here and there. Bad proportioning, with cars that don't know whether they want to be a sedan or a fastback, so they try to split the middle, and so forth.
  • momcatrenomomcatreno Member Posts: 2
    we had a lot of snow this past winter and the rain is crazy. i want to drive without skidding and i want to be able to get the vehicle up the road i live on that has a steep incline. don't have lots of money, and all the macho men on my road are over 70 and strange. any suggestions?
    momcat
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited July 2010
    I don't love Hyundai or any car company really. But all I can say in regards to older Hyundai's is that my dad bought a '92 Hyundai Scoupe new for my brother and sister to drive when they received their drivers licenses. My brother drove it for a year then my sister drove it through two years of high school, then 4 years of college and it survived her abuse until about 120k miles when the trans failed. And when I say abuse, I mean abuse. I wouldn't be surprised that she wrecked it more often than she changed the oil. Curbs, guard rails, and ditches. All were fair game to her. It survived 8 years of that. IMO, it's build quality was no worse than any compact domestic I've been around.

    Like Andre, said, cheap compacts tend to have tough lives. I don't see many Cavaliers or Escorts on the road anymore either and millions of those were sold. I had an 86 escort in HS that I beat the hell out off, similar to the Hyundai my sister had, it made it to about 110k or when it blew a head gasket and I got rid of it.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    well beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but I personally don't think the X6 or Crosstour look attractive either, but hey, thats just me!
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    The rear ends of those Impalas have always been very unsightly to my eyes.

    There was an apparently-rare option to have a body-colored rear panel on those cars. I used to see a white one running around here and it looked halfway decent with that setup, a bit reminiscent of a late-90s Skyline.

    Taillight-panels work on rectilinear shapes, but not on that oddball inverted-chevron shape cribbed from a 1962 Chevrolet.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    This was a midsized car, meant to compete with Camrys, Accords, and Altimas, but when I see them on the road, they almost look Civic or Corolla-sized.

    That Malibu was basically an Americanized Opel Vectra, so it ended up being a Euro-midsize. The rear end is almost identical to the Vectra, but part of the Americanization was the ugly nose. The failure to relocate the headlights for the refresh didn't help any.
  • tbone_raretbone_rare Member Posts: 96
    I don't think it was really rare Bumpy. As I remember, the rear end with the body color panel was the sport appearance package.
  • tbone_raretbone_rare Member Posts: 96
    By the way.....here are some retail numbers GM released for June. Silverado retail is up 25% over last year. Equinox 158%....Malibu 22%....Cobalt 9%....Corvette 8%....Avalanche 48%.....Express 25%....Tahoe 17%....Suburban 15%. In June 2010, the days to turn an Equinox was only 14 days. I know a lot of you take issue with GM and fleet sales. These numbers are RETAIL! These number speak to GM market share in pretty simple terms.
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    As was pointed out several times - it's easy for GM to beat last year's numbers as the economy was the pits, and GM was in the midst of bankruptcy. It's like saying a boxer isn't laying flat on his back; he's happy to be on his knees on the ropes.

    Also remember that GM had higher sales for many years than they do now. They still lost $$ at those higher sales rates that led to bankruptcy. Profits matter. And GM needs large profits based on the amount of capital they have tied up. How much profit is GM making compared to the billions and billions of $$ tied up in GM?
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Corvette Sales?? C'Mon!

    Corvette sales in June of 2010 were almost the same as sales in June of 2009. Dealers delivered 1,405 Corvettes over the 25 sales days of the month, compared to 1,396 in June of last year. Year to date in 2010, total Corvette sales have been 6,355, compared to 7,498 for the same period last year, a 15.2% decrease.

    Hmmm.....

    Regards,
    OW
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    The incentives on Corvettes are probably the largest ever. A large Corvette dealer in Atlantic City has $6,000 off a base model + 0% for 60 months. Or you can get a Z06 with $9,000 off, and the financing.

    The Corvette is a great vehicle in many ways, but it is now long-in-the-tooth from a style perspective.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Yeah, Ive been there twice and it's an impressive dealer. At least 40 'vettes on site all the time!

    Regards,
    OW
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    The incentives on Corvettes are probably the largest ever. A large Corvette dealer in Atlantic City has $6,000 off a base model + 0% for 60 months. Or you can get a Z06 with $9,000 off, and the financing.


    I wonder if they'll let you test drive one.

    A friend was in the market recently, and the local Corvette dealer refused to even take him for a test drive as a passenger unless he filled out financial paperwork first.

    He said "screw that", went down the road one mile, to the BMW dealer, placed an order and paid cash for a new M3 convertible...fully loaded.

    And, before anyone asks, he is a neat, well dressed fellow, and looks nothing like a bum. I have heard of other instances exactly like the one I just described.

    You can't sell 'em if you won't at least let a potential buyer ride in 'em.
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    While I can see where a dealer may not want to put miles on a Vette or any other expensive vehicle, as the depreciation between a "new" and a "demo" can be a lot, a dealer should have a way to get a customer a demo-ride. Maybe the dealer had a similar '08 or '09 used on the lot, or could have arranged something with another dealer or former customer.

    Probably it was a matter where the dealer was being shortsighted in trying to keep the customer "captive", thinking of themselves, and not thinking of what overall is good for GM.

    That is 1 reason I thought GM should have went totally out-of-business, and reemerged the next day as HN Motors or some such. GM could have broken their outdated dealer network, and setup something much more efficient (though I somehow doubt from history, that they would be capable of doing so).

    I had once suggested that GM should have a regional sales-office, where all their vehicles were available for test-drives. There would be no dealers with a lot of inventory (but no Vettes for test-drives), probably vehicles that may not be the way customers want them painted or optioned. Customers would go to the regional sales-office, test-drive the vehicle, and then sit-down with the sales staff, and design their vehicle. Every vehicle would be custom-ordered and built. I would be very happy to be a customer in such a process, as going to the typical dealer is liking getting a root canal.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    edited July 2010
    "2009-my registrations"

    Model Fleet %

    Aveo 23.4%
    Cobalt 32.2%
    Impala 57.7%
    Rentibu 30.1%
    Rentibu hybrid 60%
    Camaro 14.5%
    HHR 54.8%
    Equinox 14.9%
    Traverse 14.6%
    Suburban 35.5%
    Tahoe 30.1%

    This is just the Chevy end of things!

    There is no "taking issue" here. Facts show Fleet sales prop up Government Motors figures

    BIG TIME. ;)
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    A similar situation happened to my best friend. He had just received his Master's Degree, had saved up a ton of money, and wanted to buy a Corvette to celebrate his success. All he talked about for the previous five years was "buying a new Corvette.

    An "experienced" salesperson approached him and tried to sterr him toward lesser-priced models on the show room floor. My friend was upset and told her he had no interest in those cars and was serious about buying a Corvette. A young guy who just started about a week ago approached my friend and took his request seriously, let him test drive the Corvette, explained all the features, and ultimately got the sale.

    A few days later when my friend and I drove over to get the car, the "experienced" salesperson was muttering, "I wouldn't buy a car like that anyway." I walked over to her and said, "Don't rain on his parade! This is all he talked about for the last five years!" The greenpea got a fat commission on the sale of a Corvette and the older lady outsmarted herself.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,056
    That Malibu was basically an Americanized Opel Vectra, so it ended up being a Euro-midsize.

    It's interesting how the tables have turned over the years. I always use the 1978-83 Malibu and its siblings as the benchmark of what a midsized car should be. Not in quality or performance necessarily, but in overall size, interior room, and trunk space. And in how well the car fits me, personally.

    Well, nowadays, cars like the Accord, Camry, and Altima feel more in range of the 1978-83 Malibu...a "true" midsized car, IMO. While the Fusion, Sebring/Avenger, and Malibu/Aura/G6, feel more like a compact to me. In fact, looking up interior volumes, today's Malibu is around the same size inside as the old 1980-85 Citation and other X-bodies.

    I've driven a few Malibus and I do like them, so it would be big enough for me. But, I'd just prefer something a little larger.
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,192
    Corvettes really are a special case – at least they were when I ordered my 2007, in late 2006.

    I did significant research – for months, before requesting a Corvette test drive.

    Many dealers, particularly those with low allocations, would not [ then ] allow test drives. Period. Partly, this appears to be because many potential buyers do not want any Test Drive Miles on the Corvette they purchase.

    Almost Catch 22.

    Yet, when I contacted the largest local dealer ( near Atlanta ) I was very pleasantly surprised when (before even meeting me in person ) the Corvette sales person responded via email:

    “We do allow test drives on coupes & convertibles. I don’t understand
    dealers that don’t. I wouldn’t buy a $50 pair of shoes without trying them
    on, much less a $50,000 car”

    The test drives ( I wrote & posted my impressions elsewhere ) convinced me that the C6 would be an acceptable Daily Driver – as well as a fun car to drive!
    ( A given. )

    - Ray
    Sorry – but not surprised to see ‘Vette sales so far down from peak . . .
    2022 X3 M40i
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    The irony was that when he went to the BMW dealer, they made a copy of his DL, but instead of letting him ride in an M3 there, they tossed him the keys and told him to take his wife out for a test drive. And, they didn't have a dozen M3's on the lot, unlike the Corvette dealer (a large Chevy dealer that never has less than 15 'Vettes in stock...now I understand why he keeps so many!).
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    The one consistent marker among the fleet-heavy vehicles is that they're outdated models that are about to be (or should be) replaced soon. GM has a lot of those.

    The link also answers some questions like the split between Genesis sedan and coupe sales (70/30) and how many Corolla sales are actually the Matrix (about 10%).
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    That white one is the only I remember seeing. I suppose the older folks who bought Impalas around here didn't want to spend the extra ten bucks or whatever it cost.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,056
    That white one is the only I remember seeing. I suppose the older folks who bought Impalas around here didn't want to spend the extra ten bucks or whatever it cost.

    That body-color option was fairly common when the Impala first came out. As I recall, there was an "SS" appearance package that gave you some ribs & wings, different alloy wheels from the LS, and that body-color rear. No performance boosts, though, and you could get it on the base or LS. I remember seeing one that stickered for about $30,000! And this was back around 2000-2001!

    The body-color rear insert may have also been a stand-alone option. I wish that SS travesty I witnessed was just a figment of my imagination, but alas it was not! At least it wasn't long before Chevy started putting supercharged 3.8's in there and made a somewhat more proper SS.
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    so enlighten us further. the economy has improved by what percentage 2010 over 2009?

    You do realize that if your answer is less than 25% then your post is 'spinning'?
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    The body-color rear insert may have also been a stand-alone option. I wish that SS travesty I witnessed was just a figment of my imagination, but alas it was not! At least it wasn't long before Chevy started putting supercharged 3.8's in there and made a somewhat more proper SS.

    Yeah, that was horrible. Like the MonteCarlo SS with a n/a 3800, what a joke.
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