They GAVE AWAY more cars than anyone else, using bailouts and tax payer funding
Let's do some maths. GM has been No. 1 for 77 years; using their most recent revenue $135B as a rough estimate number. In 77 years, the rough total revenue would be (in 2010 dollar value):
$135B x 77 = $10T (trillion)
If as you said, all those revenue was not from sales, it was from give aways, and GM uses bailouts and tax dollars to break even, they must have used $10T dollars from tax dollars.
If GM didn't exist for the last 77 years then someone else would have made the same number of vehicles, and employed the same number of workers.
If IBM, McDonald's, Dupont, Exxon-Mobil, Microsoft or Apple never existed or go out of business tomorrow, someone else would have filled the need and picked up the business.
Even the overthrow or collapse of an entire government does not mean the apocalypse, and the crash of a society. The Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact fell apart and their societits came out of that change fairly well. Some here would make it out to be that the collapse of GM or Chrysler would have been the apocalypse. Bulloney.
Oh BTW: Does everyone here realize that the bailout of 2009 has made the banking situation even worse? Yes, the surviving banks/firms are now larger, and those same banks/firms have seen that since they are too big to fail, there's really no negative to taking on MORE risk! So when the house-of-cards collapses even worse next time, see if you keep saying bailouts are good. Sure TARP has been repaid, and Wall Street is happy, but it seems the conomy is still hurt pretty bad. Sure GM and its workers are doing fine, but I think the rest of us similarly paid via a damaged-economy for that.
It's just ridiculous to call that all GM sold cars were give aways and using tax dollars.
I don't think he meant it that way. I think he was referring to the fact that 10 years prior to the bankruptcy GM rarely made any money selling cars. During the '00's GM made lots money from GMAC via home, and consumer credit loans. GM was often referred to as a mortgage company that just happened to manufacture cars.
If it weren't for the housing bubble, GM likely would have gone bankrupt years ago. The company had been a mess for decades.
In one way Romney was right. The only way to fix GM was for a reorganization through bankruptcy.
What's to dispute. GM had a good month and Toyota got hammered for a variety of reasons. Many of which were out of their control. I'm surprised Nissan has faired so well. The Altima keeps having great months. I wonder if Nissan is throwing a lot of money on the hood.
GM and Ford better be busting their asses to take advantage of this opportunity. They both have some good product, now's the time to win back some market share.
Sure, it was a huge mess, but it was mostly created by banks, and not primarily GM's fault, or Chrysler's. A recession they did not create would have wiped them both.
The bailout propped them up and let them restructure, savings a lot of US jobs. At tier I and II suppliers, as well.
I'm not saying it was a GOOD option, mind you, just LESS BAD. The alternative would have been far, far worse. There would be no auto industry left in this country, besides Ford. We'd only have the Fusion.
Even the overthrow or collapse of an entire government does not mean the apocalypse, and the crash of a society.
Isn't the tax system by which the government collects tax from one group of people and gives away to another group of people a big bailout too?
Each man, each family should be responsible for its own wellbeing.
The government should only take care of 2 duties: manage our military and defense for national security, and manage our court and police for justice. Nothing more.
The government should only take care of 2 duties: manage our military and defense for national security, and manage our court and police for justice. Nothing more.
I can't wait for all the private toll roads to spring up.
Dieselone, I don't know what it was in previous months, but there's up to $1,250 or zero percent financing on Altimas in my zip code. $2,000 on Pathfindes and Xterras, $3,000 on Frontiers and $3,500 on Titans. $4,000 on Armadas (plus $4k in dealer cash).
Chevy incentives are pretty high across the board, with just a few exceptions (Camaro, Vette, Cruze and Equinox).
If IBM, McDonald's, Dupont, Exxon-Mobil, Microsoft or Apple never existed or go out of business tomorrow, someone else would have filled the need and picked up the business.
- IBM is mostly in the computer business, so it can easily be moved overseas or absorbed, as most of what it does isn't manufacturing. Moderately easily to replace.
- McDonald's is *zero* heavy industry of any kind - yes, easily replaced.
- Dupont - hard industry. Impossible to replace given the world business environment.
- Exxon is also a hard to replace industry.
Apple and Microsoft could just as easily operate out of Mexico or India and likely will do so in the near future.
There's a big difference between hard industry and manufacturing capacity and other types. You have to give special protection to these as once they are gon, historically, they never return. And every one makes us weaker and less able to deal with real emergencies should the need arise.
IBM is really more of a consulting and services company these days. I think a loss of McDonald's might have more impact than you think. Its not likely anyone can replace its scale, so besides jobs there would be a reduction in investment and in taxes. while fast food prices would likely increase. DuPont and Exxon would probably not be replaced per se, but merged into other similar companies creating less competition and higher prices.
But I agree, I've yet to see a strong, successful long term economy that doesn't have a manufacturing component.
Interesting argument by Mitt Romney today on CBS. He said he opposed the bailout of GM proposed by Obama and Bush. He said the $17B they were given pre BK was a waste. He said let them go BK. He said that Obama later took his advice and let them go into BK. that is how they became lean, mean, and healthy. The original Q to Mitt was look how you opposed the bailout and yet GM created 117,000 new jobs as a result of the bailout. Why were you so wrong? Mitt said they followed my reccommendation and that's why it worked out.
117,000 new jobs is considered a bad thing for many who post here.
Well, if GM never provides about $16 billion back to the US taxpayers (the recent estimates in the news), then $16B/117K jobs = $136K/job. Is that a good value for autoworker jobs created by the taxpayer? You tell me.
At $136K a job, that's about 3 years in wages (don't forget employer contributions in the mix) to break even.
You really need to think long term. It takes more than a decade to get that type and scale of manufacturing up and running and trust me - we're NOT going to have the money in the next 50 years to rebuild a GM from nothing. If we lose it, it's simply gone forever.
OK, bear with me. That's more than a 29% in revenues being cut.
GM and Chrysler had the capacity for a 17M market, and the associated fixed costs. Overnight, you get a 29% pay cut, no fault of your own, mind you.
I disagree. First, the economy was booming. What MBA wouldn't know that the economy goes in cycles? What brainiac shouldn't know that price of fuel can change rapidly as much of our fuel comes from unstable sandy countries? And what CEO or CFO who is competent shouldn't know that to reduce risk, there should be feasible contingency plans for these cycles and adverse events? And what brilliant product planner (Lutz?) wouldn't know that putting all eggs in the SUV/Truck basket might be a dangerous product strategy? I didn't see Honda, Toyota, Subaru, Mazda, BMW, VW, Mercedes, or even Ford go into BK due to this situation. It was TOTALLY through fault of their own.
What would you have done?
See above comments. Have contingency plans. Broaden the product portfolio with quality vehicles rather than trucks and SUVs. Put all the money used to add divisions over the years (Buick, Chevy, Pontiac, GMC, Opel, Vauxhall, Holden, Hummer, Saab, Geo, etc.) and buy unrelated companies (Hughes) into actually improving the product! And while we're at it, be more hard line against the UAW.
What if your job forced a 29% cut overnight, take it or leave it, at your job, due to the recession?
Layoffs or pay cuts. If the union doesn't like it, go BK instead of whining (Wagoner) that GM would "never survive bankruptcy".
If you disagree, go have a cold beer this weekend and try not to worry about the bailout.
I'm not worrying too much, at this point it's just entertainment. :P
I see that there were 74,000 UAW employees working for General Motors in Feb 2008 that were offered a buyout. If 30,000 of them took the buyout and were all replaced by new workers at 1/3 the hourly rate, that would count as 30,000 new jobs by the jobs counters. There would not be a loss to the economy until the $140,000 buyout that each received was fully offset by the 2/3 reduction in wages for the newer workers. that could take 4 years. The IRS would see a 2008 revenue jump as workers making 70k a year suddenly had taxable incomes of $210k in 2008. Plus a replacement worker making another 40k in that same year.
Those 117,000 added workers at 1/3 the pay would be equal to 39,000 UAW workers from 2008 in total pay. At least they didn't go fully robotic like Honda Greensburg.
Your link of 68,000 GM workers in the US in 2009 would be such a drastic reduction. IEW, UAW, other unions, salary, contract, contractors, all totalling 68,000? Anderson, In once had 31,000 GM workers by itself.
A $51 billion dollar bailout for 68,000 worker company would be $750,000 per employee. I can't buy that.
If I combine the 68,000 left in 2009 with the 117,000 added since and divide GM's revenue of $139 billion for 2010 by the total number of employees, that has each employee generating $750,000 worth of revenue. That is awesome for such a loser of a company. I guess employees of a quality managed company must each generate $2 million of revenue each?
From sticky accelerators to faulty steering components and windshield wipers, these recalls top the list for biggest of all time, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.
1. Ford
Number of vehicles: 21 million
Date of recall: Jan. 6, 1981
Reason: Ford cars and trucks with automatic transmissions manufactured between 1970 to 1980 failed to hold or engage in “park.”
2. Ford
Number of vehicles: 7.9 million
Date of recall: April 25, 1996
Reason: Ignition switches on the steering wheel caught fire in 1988-1993 Ford Aerostars, Broncos, Crown Victorias and Cougars, among others.
3. GM
Number of vehicles: 6.7 million
Date of recall: Dec. 10, 1971
Reason: Faulty engine mounts (which hold the engine down under the hood) in the Bel Air, Impala, Nova, Townsman and other GM cars from the late 1960s and early ’70s.
4. GM
Number of vehicles: 5.8 million
Date of recall: Feb. 20, 1981
Reason: A component of the suspension system, the rear control arm, failed in the Buick Century, Pontiac Grand Prix, GMC Caballero and other GM models produced from 1978 through 1981.
5. Ford
Number of vehicles: 4.5 million
Date of recall: Sept. 7, 2005
Reason: An overheating cruise control deactivation switch caused cruise control to stay stuck in the “on” position in Broncos, Expeditions and Navigators, among others.
6. Ford
Number of vehicles: 4.5 million
Date of recall: Oct. 9, 2009
Reason: Ford recalled 1992 to 2003 Ford Windstars, Ford Excursions, Mercury Mountaineers and other models because of a speed deactivation switch that may leak internally and then overheat, smoke or burn.
7. Toyota
Number of vehicles: 4.45 million
Date of recall: Oct. 5, 2009
Reason: Sticky gas pedal created sudden and unexpected acceleration in the Toyota Camry, Prius and Avalon as well as the Lexus ES350 and IS.
8. Ford
Number of vehicles: 4 million
Date of recall: June 28, 1972
Reason: Faulty seat belt buckles caused problems in Ford and Mercury vehicles.
9. GM
Number of vehicles: 3.7 million
Date of recall: Jan. 29, 1973
Reason: Stones kicked up under the car could lodge in the engine compartment, causing loss of steering control in the Buick Electra, Buick Riviera and other models.
10. Volkswagen
Number of vehicles: 3.7 million
Date of recall: Oct. 12, 1972
Reason: Wiper arms prone to falling off on Beetles built between 1949 and 1969.
11. Honda
Number of vehicles: 3.7 million
Date of recall: May 16, 1995
Reason: Release button on Hondas built in 1986 to 1991 cracked prematurely, causing seatbelts to unfasten suddenly or stay fastened after an accident.
12. GM
Number of vehicles: 3.7 million
Date of recall: March 17, 2004
Reason: Support cables for tailgates on GM truck models from 2000 to 2004 corroded and failed.
GM has 19.9 million on the top list. Add the others and Toyota doesn't even come close. :P
With the coming economy I would think GM would be better focusing on selling in the $10K - $20K range. If I were GM I'd be designing bare-bones subcompacts, for people making the $10-$15/hr at the jobs that the new economy is creating.
Oh, but that's right, GM can't make money on subcompacts. But your idea is sound as a pound, kernick. GM should buy Tata? Suzuki? Oh, wait, didnt GM try that one before? That's right...there's the Sonic coming to fill the sub-hole they currently have. It's supposed ta be good...but what if I throw out a sales figure like...umm....175,000 units in 2012? Sonic's?
Seattle? Oh, don't get me started. That blockhead Clay Bennett stole our...Thunder. :sick:
the only big GM recall in the last 30 years was the tailgate cable recall? Somehow that's gonna make GM look bad? I took my '01 Silverado in and got new cables put on. My original ones were in great condition and the replacement was completely needless. But hey, lets punish GM for selling 6.8 million trucks.
No big GM car recalls in over 30 years? But hey, lets live in the past. About that 21% of GDP...
IBM is mostly in the computer business, so it can easily be moved overseas or absorbed
I have an IBM Thinkpad. Except it's made by Lenovo, a Chinese company. Not a hard industry to move, obviously.
"In Toledo, Mr. Obama accentuated the positive, highlighting the spillover effects of a healthy auto industry, both for companies that supply parts to Chrysler and for local restaurants and other businesses. To underscore the point, he stopped by Rudy's Hot Dog for a hot dog and bowl of chili.
Without you, who would eat at Chet's or Inky's or Rudy's? the president said to cheers as he named local favorites. Or who would buy all those cold ones at Zinger's? What would life be like here in Toledo if you didn't make these cars?"
"Taking a spin around Chrysler’s Toledo operations, talking with auto workers and Chrysler executives, and meeting with community dignitaries will give Obama a chance to highlight the huge payoff for the company, the industry, the city of Toledo and the entire industrial Midwest from the 2009 takeover of the failing automakers. The move was viewed negatively by most of the American people at the time, but where it counts the most in an important sense -- in auto-heavy electoral swing states such as Ohio, Michigan, Indiana and Wisconsin -- the president’s bold decision is playing pretty well these days."
With the coming economy I would think GM would be better focusing on selling in the $10K - $20K range. If I were GM I'd be designing bare-bones subcompacts, for people making the $10-$15/hr at the jobs that the new economy is creating.
Oh, but that's right, GM can't make money on subcompacts. What do GM, Ford and/or Chrysler have ta do ta change this long-held automotive sales problem? They ought ta be giving it some brainiac thought.
But your idea is sound as a pound, kernick. GM should buy Tata? Suzuki? Oh, wait, didn't GM try a Suzuki buyout...uh...ummm...compromise....yegh...before? That's right...there's the Sonic coming to fill the subcompact hole they currently have. It's supposed ta be good...but what if I throw out a sales figure like...umm....100,000 units of Sonic in the sales fiscal year 2012 for the U.S.? Sonic's?
Seattle Sonics? Oh, don't get me started. That blockhead Clay Bennett stole our Thunder, with a capital T, emboldened.
In the past one and half year, Toyota had close to 20 million recalls spreading on almost every model, with more than a dozen different problems. That's why many of them did not make your list.
Here's the Toyota recalls in the past one and half years. Find any automaker who has even close to this many recalls in such a short period of time.
Nov 02, 2009 – US: 3.8 million Toyota and Lexus vehicles again recalled due to floor mat problem, this time for all driver's side mats.
Nov 26, 2009 – US: floor mat recall amended to include brake override and increased to 4.2 million vehicles.
Jan 21, 2010 – US: 2.3 million Toyota vehicles recalled due to faulty accelerator pedals (of those, 2.1 million already involved in floor mat recall).
Jan 27, 2010 – US: 1.1 million Toyotas added to amended floor mat recall.
Jan 29, 2010 – Europe, China: 1.8 million Toyotas added to faulty accelerator pedal recall.
Feb 08, 2010 – Worldwide: 436,000 hybrid vehicles in brake recall following 200 reports of Prius brake glitches.
Feb 08, 2010 – US: 7,300 MY 2010 Camry vehicles recalled over potential brake tube problems.
Feb 12, 2010 – US: 8,000 MY 2010 4WD Tacoma pick-up trucks recalled over concerns about possible defective front drive shafts.
Apr 16, 2010 – US: 600,000 MY 1998–2010 Sienna minivans for possible corrosion of spare tire carrier cable.
Apr 19, 2010 – World: 21,000 MY 2010 Toyota Land Cruiser Prado and 13,000 Lexus GX 460 SUV's recalled to reprogram the stability control system.
Apr 28, 2010 – US: 50,000 MY 2003 Toyota Sequoia recalled to reprogram the stability control system.
May 21, 2010 – Japan: 4,509, US: 7,000 MY 2010 LS for steering system software update.
July 5, 2010 – World: 270,000 Crown and Lexus models for valve springs with potential production issue.
July 29, 2010 – US: 412,000 Avalons and LX 470s for replacement of steering column components.
August 28, 2010 – US & Canada: approximately 1.13 million Corolla and Corolla Matrix vehicles produced between 2005 and 2008 for Engine Control Modules (ECM) that may have been improperly manufactured.
February 22, 2011 – US: Toyota recalls an additional 2.17 million vehicles for gas pedals that become trapped on floor hardware.
June 1, 2011 - World: Toyota recalls 106,000 Prius hybrid cars for possible steering problems.
GM is the laughing stock of the Global Auto Industry. Think about it.
GM still sells more cars than anyone else, has more profit than anyone else, more customers than anyone else. You can laugh all you want, you are just one of the minority. There are 10 million GM customers each year. You cannot even make a dent on that with all your efforts here. Talk about low efficiency; that's 0 mpg...
I like Yuengling, but I don't know if that's just 'cause you can't get it here in OH or not! My hometown is in PA only eight miles from the OH border and friends ask me to bring Yuengling home from there when I visit.
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Man, I think Freud would have a field day on this forum. I've never seen so many people root against 'the home team'. Do those guys hate their local high school football team too?
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
There's a big difference between hard industry and manufacturing capacity and other types. You have to give special protection to these as once they are gon, historically, they never return.
I think you're simplifying the reasons that industries are made obsolete and move. Industries have come and gone in different parts of the world due to wide-spread changes in fundamentals of the industry. When there is not a fundamental, wide-spread change another owner usually comes in to with different management and marketing techniques to replace the failed management model.
What led to GM's failure wasn't a fundamental, wide-spread problem that forces auto production from the U.S. The proof of that is that foreign manufacturers have opened so many plants here in the U.S. in the last couple of decades.
GM and Chrysler failed because of their management and structural systems, not that some other owners could not figure out how to run auto plants here in the U.S. GM failed because they bought into an expensive and rigid cost structure with their retirees, employees, suppliers, and dealers. Over the decades they were the ones who made the noose, got on the stool and tied their hands behind-their-backs. Tons of history there on how they got to that point - mistreatment of employees, leading to unions who then went too far, ...
It was GM's management system, their arrogance, their inabilty to change due to all these agreements that gave them such high fixed costs ... These things have nothing to do with the ability of the auto industry to exist in the U.S.
GM is nothing but a bunch of papers, the buildings, designs, parts, and property can all be resold to others who want to build autos. All the assets of GM can be transferred to others. If someone dies tomorrow, their business or property can be sold or given away. GM would simply be a little more complicated. Large companies merge, large companies can be dissolved. Go find a list from 50 or 100 years ago and tell us how many of the largest companies in the U.S. are still around!
I've never seen so many people root against 'the home team'.
I think you misinterpret what people are against. We're not against "the home team"; we're against the people running the home-team. Replace the coaches who set the rules for the team, design the plays, and drink all the Gatorade instead of the players.
Replace the owners and coaches, and put the team back out there. Stop giving the owners and coaches incentives and open-ended contracts when they make minimal changes and continue to fail. And replace some of the players if they are playing selfishly, and have crazy internal team rules that hurt the team.
>Replace the coaches who set the rules for the team, design the plays, and drink all the Gatorade instead of the players.
To continue this parable: what would you do with the visiting team who has been given great tax breaks and incentives by all levels of government to sell cars and manufacture some of them here? Take a team like Team Toyota, for instance, who hid and misrepresented reports of unintended acceleration when they reported the to NHSTA since 2002?
And that would have been a great thing for our country. Instead of a triple dip deprecession in which were headed for the double dip soon, we'd be much better off today and on our way to a true recovery.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
What MBA wouldn't know that the economy goes in cycles?
None. Though a young inexperienced one may have never experienced the low end of a steep cycle and had too wishful thinking.
What brainiac shouldn't know that price of fuel can change rapidly as much of our fuel comes from unstable sandy countries?
I don't think it takes a brainiac, just some common sense.
And what CEO or CFO who is competent shouldn't know that to reduce risk, there should be feasible contingency plans for these cycles and adverse events?
You mean like Southwest did in PRE-BUYING a good percentage of their next 3 years of jet fuel costs while the pricing was good? Imagine if GM had bought enough gas to supply all GM owners with gas for a year at $2/gallon everytime it was $4/gallon or more. Boneheads! I think Chrysler did a $2.99/gallon promised for a year rebate card incentive at one point; not good enough.
The failure of Chrysler and GM had nothing to do with the economic collapse, and everything to do with their own management, assembly lines, and poor product and pricing.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
When the home team is robbing you blind, stealing, theiving, pillaging, raping your women, and burning your town down then it becomes hard to root for them. Oh yeah, they probably are running over your family dog too (for Lemko) :P
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Man, I think Freud would have a field day on this forum. I've never seen so many people root against 'the home team'. Do those guys hate their local high school football team too?
Madoff is the "home team", too. You can have good and bad on the home team. I'll root for Ford!
Madoff is the "home team", too. You can have good and bad on the home team. I'll root for Ford!
Not quite making the connection between Madoff and General Motors. At least I'm not aware of a single GM automobile made in Mexico (although some trucks are) as Ford does. And the Aveo is marketed as a 'captive import', although you couldn't give me one, BTW. GM's powertrain warranty lasts for 40K more miles than Ford's too.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
GM's powertrain warranty lasts for 40K more miles than Ford's too.
HA! Kia is 10 years/100K. Just another large spear in the side of customer satisfaction at GM. Why only 5 years??? So many easy targets! GM is a joke afaic.
Comments
Let's do some maths. GM has been No. 1 for 77 years; using their most recent revenue $135B as a rough estimate number. In 77 years, the rough total revenue would be (in 2010 dollar value):
$135B x 77 = $10T (trillion)
If as you said, all those revenue was not from sales, it was from give aways, and GM uses bailouts and tax dollars to break even, they must have used $10T dollars from tax dollars.
How much has US loaned GM in total?
Does your maths add-up?
Oh, blame GM for the US government deficit....
If IBM, McDonald's, Dupont, Exxon-Mobil, Microsoft or Apple never existed or go out of business tomorrow, someone else would have filled the need and picked up the business.
Even the overthrow or collapse of an entire government does not mean the apocalypse, and the crash of a society. The Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact fell apart and their societits came out of that change fairly well. Some here would make it out to be that the collapse of GM or Chrysler would have been the apocalypse. Bulloney.
Oh BTW: Does everyone here realize that the bailout of 2009 has made the banking situation even worse? Yes, the surviving banks/firms are now larger, and those same banks/firms have seen that since they are too big to fail, there's really no negative to taking on MORE risk! So when the house-of-cards collapses even worse next time, see if you keep saying bailouts are good. Sure TARP has been repaid, and Wall Street is happy, but it seems the conomy is still hurt pretty bad. Sure GM and its workers are doing fine, but I think the rest of us similarly paid via a damaged-economy for that.
I'm on your side; I'm against the bailout too.
It's just ridiculous to call that all GM sold cars were give aways and using tax dollars.
Too difficult to dispute?
I don't think he meant it that way. I think he was referring to the fact that 10 years prior to the bankruptcy GM rarely made any money selling cars. During the '00's GM made lots money from GMAC via home, and consumer credit loans. GM was often referred to as a mortgage company that just happened to manufacture cars.
If it weren't for the housing bubble, GM likely would have gone bankrupt years ago. The company had been a mess for decades.
In one way Romney was right. The only way to fix GM was for a reorganization through bankruptcy.
GM and Ford better be busting their asses to take advantage of this opportunity. They both have some good product, now's the time to win back some market share.
You stated a fact, what did you expect? :confuse:
We disputed *HOW* GM got so many sales, though. Me thinks $4k below invoice on Malibus had a little something to do with the facts you shared.
Incentives were also "too difficult to dispute".
What you didn't mention was that GM was down 1% overall. So how much of Toyota's market share did they really steal?
Kia was up 53%.
Oh noes, don't let me get Circle W started....LOL.
You wanna know what's funny?
I was pro-bailout.
Sure, it was a huge mess, but it was mostly created by banks, and not primarily GM's fault, or Chrysler's. A recession they did not create would have wiped them both.
The bailout propped them up and let them restructure, savings a lot of US jobs. At tier I and II suppliers, as well.
I'm not saying it was a GOOD option, mind you, just LESS BAD. The alternative would have been far, far worse. There would be no auto industry left in this country, besides Ford. We'd only have the Fusion.
Oops. Fusion is built in Mexico.
The US market bought 17 million cars at its peak.
That took a nose dive to about 12 million.
OK, bear with me. That's more than a 29% in revenues being cut.
GM and Chrysler had the capacity for a 17M market, and the associated fixed costs. Overnight, you get a 29% pay cut, no fault of your own, mind you.
What would you have done?
What if your job forced a 29% cut overnight, take it or leave it, at your job, due to the recession?
If you disagree, go have a cold beer this weekend and try not to worry about the bailout.
Just remember:
* Miller is now owned by South African Breweries.
* Budweiser is owned by Ambev.
* Coors is owned by Molsen.
So good luck finding a domestic draft. :P
Isn't the tax system by which the government collects tax from one group of people and gives away to another group of people a big bailout too?
Each man, each family should be responsible for its own wellbeing.
The government should only take care of 2 duties: manage our military and defense for national security, and manage our court and police for justice. Nothing more.
Collect 10% flat tax from everyone.
This is a comment related to the GM bailout.
What's really sad is GM was still losing money when the market was moving 17m vehicles.
* Budweiser is owned by Ambev.
* Coors is owned by Molsen.
That's a good point.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I like Sam Adams. A bit pricey but very tasty and 100% American.
I can't wait for all the private toll roads to spring up.
Dieselone, I don't know what it was in previous months, but there's up to $1,250 or zero percent financing on Altimas in my zip code. $2,000 on Pathfindes and Xterras, $3,000 on Frontiers and $3,500 on Titans. $4,000 on Armadas (plus $4k in dealer cash).
Chevy incentives are pretty high across the board, with just a few exceptions (Camaro, Vette, Cruze and Equinox).
Meanwhile the fact that the Cruze and Equinox don't have high incentives is good news.
If IBM, McDonald's, Dupont, Exxon-Mobil, Microsoft or Apple never existed or go out of business tomorrow, someone else would have filled the need and picked up the business.
- IBM is mostly in the computer business, so it can easily be moved overseas or absorbed, as most of what it does isn't manufacturing. Moderately easily to replace.
- McDonald's is *zero* heavy industry of any kind - yes, easily replaced.
- Dupont - hard industry. Impossible to replace given the world business environment.
- Exxon is also a hard to replace industry.
Apple and Microsoft could just as easily operate out of Mexico or India and likely will do so in the near future.
There's a big difference between hard industry and manufacturing capacity and other types. You have to give special protection to these as once they are gon, historically, they never return. And every one makes us weaker and less able to deal with real emergencies should the need arise.
But I agree, I've yet to see a strong, successful long term economy that doesn't have a manufacturing component.
Stock price tends to reflect the market's perception of the future growth and profitability of a company, rather than market share.
117,000 new jobs is considered a bad thing for many who post here.
Well, if GM never provides about $16 billion back to the US taxpayers (the recent estimates in the news), then $16B/117K jobs = $136K/job. Is that a good value for autoworker jobs created by the taxpayer? You tell me.
You really need to think long term. It takes more than a decade to get that type and scale of manufacturing up and running and trust me - we're NOT going to have the money in the next 50 years to rebuild a GM from nothing. If we lose it, it's simply gone forever.
That took a nose dive to about 12 million.
OK, bear with me. That's more than a 29% in revenues being cut.
GM and Chrysler had the capacity for a 17M market, and the associated fixed costs. Overnight, you get a 29% pay cut, no fault of your own, mind you.
I disagree. First, the economy was booming. What MBA wouldn't know that the economy goes in cycles? What brainiac shouldn't know that price of fuel can change rapidly as much of our fuel comes from unstable sandy countries? And what CEO or CFO who is competent shouldn't know that to reduce risk, there should be feasible contingency plans for these cycles and adverse events? And what brilliant product planner (Lutz?) wouldn't know that putting all eggs in the SUV/Truck basket might be a dangerous product strategy? I didn't see Honda, Toyota, Subaru, Mazda, BMW, VW, Mercedes, or even Ford go into BK due to this situation. It was TOTALLY through fault of their own.
What would you have done?
See above comments. Have contingency plans. Broaden the product portfolio with quality vehicles rather than trucks and SUVs. Put all the money used to add divisions over the years (Buick, Chevy, Pontiac, GMC, Opel, Vauxhall, Holden, Hummer, Saab, Geo, etc.) and buy unrelated companies (Hughes) into actually improving the product! And while we're at it, be more hard line against the UAW.
What if your job forced a 29% cut overnight, take it or leave it, at your job, due to the recession?
Layoffs or pay cuts. If the union doesn't like it, go BK instead of whining (Wagoner) that GM would "never survive bankruptcy".
If you disagree, go have a cold beer this weekend and try not to worry about the bailout.
I'm not worrying too much, at this point it's just entertainment. :P
Those 117,000 added workers at 1/3 the pay would be equal to 39,000 UAW workers from 2008 in total pay. At least they didn't go fully robotic like Honda Greensburg.
Your link of 68,000 GM workers in the US in 2009 would be such a drastic reduction. IEW, UAW, other unions, salary, contract, contractors, all totalling 68,000? Anderson, In once had 31,000 GM workers by itself.
A $51 billion dollar bailout for 68,000 worker company would be $750,000 per employee. I can't buy that.
If I combine the 68,000 left in 2009 with the 117,000 added since and divide GM's revenue of $139 billion for 2010 by the total number of employees, that has each employee generating $750,000 worth of revenue. That is awesome for such a loser of a company. I guess employees of a quality managed company must each generate $2 million of revenue each?
Or...could GM have some 'secret' employees?
From sticky accelerators to faulty steering components and windshield wipers, these recalls top the list for biggest of all time, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.
1. Ford
Number of vehicles: 21 million
Date of recall: Jan. 6, 1981
Reason: Ford cars and trucks with automatic transmissions manufactured between 1970 to 1980 failed to hold or engage in “park.”
2. Ford
Number of vehicles: 7.9 million
Date of recall: April 25, 1996
Reason: Ignition switches on the steering wheel caught fire in 1988-1993 Ford Aerostars, Broncos, Crown Victorias and Cougars, among others.
3. GM
Number of vehicles: 6.7 million
Date of recall: Dec. 10, 1971
Reason: Faulty engine mounts (which hold the engine down under the hood) in the Bel Air, Impala, Nova, Townsman and other GM cars from the late 1960s and early ’70s.
4. GM
Number of vehicles: 5.8 million
Date of recall: Feb. 20, 1981
Reason: A component of the suspension system, the rear control arm, failed in the Buick Century, Pontiac Grand Prix, GMC Caballero and other GM models produced from 1978 through 1981.
5. Ford
Number of vehicles: 4.5 million
Date of recall: Sept. 7, 2005
Reason: An overheating cruise control deactivation switch caused cruise control to stay stuck in the “on” position in Broncos, Expeditions and Navigators, among others.
6. Ford
Number of vehicles: 4.5 million
Date of recall: Oct. 9, 2009
Reason: Ford recalled 1992 to 2003 Ford Windstars, Ford Excursions, Mercury Mountaineers and other models because of a speed deactivation switch that may leak internally and then overheat, smoke or burn.
7. Toyota
Number of vehicles: 4.45 million
Date of recall: Oct. 5, 2009
Reason: Sticky gas pedal created sudden and unexpected acceleration in the Toyota Camry, Prius and Avalon as well as the Lexus ES350 and IS.
8. Ford
Number of vehicles: 4 million
Date of recall: June 28, 1972
Reason: Faulty seat belt buckles caused problems in Ford and Mercury vehicles.
9. GM
Number of vehicles: 3.7 million
Date of recall: Jan. 29, 1973
Reason: Stones kicked up under the car could lodge in the engine compartment, causing loss of steering control in the Buick Electra, Buick Riviera and other models.
10. Volkswagen
Number of vehicles: 3.7 million
Date of recall: Oct. 12, 1972
Reason: Wiper arms prone to falling off on Beetles built between 1949 and 1969.
11. Honda
Number of vehicles: 3.7 million
Date of recall: May 16, 1995
Reason: Release button on Hondas built in 1986 to 1991 cracked prematurely, causing seatbelts to unfasten suddenly or stay fastened after an accident.
12. GM
Number of vehicles: 3.7 million
Date of recall: March 17, 2004
Reason: Support cables for tailgates on GM truck models from 2000 to 2004 corroded and failed.
GM has 19.9 million on the top list. Add the others and Toyota doesn't even come close. :P
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
Oh, but that's right, GM can't make money on subcompacts. But your idea is sound as a pound, kernick. GM should buy Tata? Suzuki? Oh, wait, didnt GM try that one before? That's right...there's the Sonic coming to fill the sub-hole they currently have. It's supposed ta be good...but what if I throw out a sales figure like...umm....175,000 units in 2012? Sonic's?
Seattle? Oh, don't get me started. That blockhead Clay Bennett stole our...Thunder. :sick:
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Now THAT'S SUCCESS! :shades:
Regards,
OW
HAHAHAHAHA!!!!
Regards,
OW
No big GM car recalls in over 30 years? But hey, lets live in the past. About that 21% of GDP...
I have an IBM Thinkpad. Except it's made by Lenovo, a Chinese company. Not a hard industry to move, obviously.
"In Toledo, Mr. Obama accentuated the positive, highlighting the spillover effects of a healthy auto industry, both for companies that supply parts to Chrysler and for local restaurants and other businesses. To underscore the point, he stopped by Rudy's Hot Dog for a hot dog and bowl of chili.
Without you, who would eat at Chet's or Inky's or Rudy's? the president said to cheers as he named local favorites. Or who would buy all those cold ones at Zinger's? What would life be like here in Toledo if you didn't make these cars?"
Obama Says Auto Makers’ Success Is Trickling Down (WSJ)
"Taking a spin around Chrysler’s Toledo operations, talking with auto workers and Chrysler executives, and meeting with community dignitaries will give Obama a chance to highlight the huge payoff for the company, the industry, the city of Toledo and the entire industrial Midwest from the 2009 takeover of the failing automakers. The move was viewed negatively by most of the American people at the time, but where it counts the most in an important sense -- in auto-heavy electoral swing states such as Ohio, Michigan, Indiana and Wisconsin -- the president’s bold decision is playing pretty well these days."
Obama Shines Along With Chrysler In Toledo (AutoObserver)
I'd have a Schmidt's, Ortleib's, Esslinger, or Gretz, but they left Philly years ago.
Oh, but that's right, GM can't make money on subcompacts. What do GM, Ford and/or Chrysler have ta do ta change this long-held automotive sales problem? They ought ta be giving it some brainiac thought.
But your idea is sound as a pound, kernick. GM should buy Tata? Suzuki? Oh, wait, didn't GM try a Suzuki buyout...uh...ummm...compromise....yegh...before? That's right...there's the Sonic coming to fill the subcompact hole they currently have. It's supposed ta be good...but what if I throw out a sales figure like...umm....100,000 units of Sonic in the sales fiscal year 2012 for the U.S.? Sonic's?
Seattle Sonics? Oh, don't get me started. That blockhead Clay Bennett stole our Thunder, with a capital T, emboldened.
Yuk. Yuk!
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
That list is per model per problem.
In the past one and half year, Toyota had close to 20 million recalls spreading on almost every model, with more than a dozen different problems. That's why many of them did not make your list.
Here's the Toyota recalls in the past one and half years. Find any automaker who has even close to this many recalls in such a short period of time.
Nov 02, 2009 – US: 3.8 million Toyota and Lexus vehicles again recalled due to floor mat problem, this time for all driver's side mats.
Nov 26, 2009 – US: floor mat recall amended to include brake override and increased to 4.2 million vehicles.
Jan 21, 2010 – US: 2.3 million Toyota vehicles recalled due to faulty accelerator pedals (of those, 2.1 million already involved in floor mat recall).
Jan 27, 2010 – US: 1.1 million Toyotas added to amended floor mat recall.
Jan 29, 2010 – Europe, China: 1.8 million Toyotas added to faulty accelerator pedal recall.
Feb 08, 2010 – Worldwide: 436,000 hybrid vehicles in brake recall following 200 reports of Prius brake glitches.
Feb 08, 2010 – US: 7,300 MY 2010 Camry vehicles recalled over potential brake tube problems.
Feb 12, 2010 – US: 8,000 MY 2010 4WD Tacoma pick-up trucks recalled over concerns about possible defective front drive shafts.
Apr 16, 2010 – US: 600,000 MY 1998–2010 Sienna minivans for possible corrosion of spare tire carrier cable.
Apr 19, 2010 – World: 21,000 MY 2010 Toyota Land Cruiser Prado and 13,000 Lexus GX 460 SUV's recalled to reprogram the stability control system.
Apr 28, 2010 – US: 50,000 MY 2003 Toyota Sequoia recalled to reprogram the stability control system.
May 21, 2010 – Japan: 4,509, US: 7,000 MY 2010 LS for steering system software update.
July 5, 2010 – World: 270,000 Crown and Lexus models for valve springs with potential production issue.
July 29, 2010 – US: 412,000 Avalons and LX 470s for replacement of steering column components.
August 28, 2010 – US & Canada: approximately 1.13 million Corolla and Corolla Matrix vehicles produced between 2005 and 2008 for Engine Control Modules (ECM) that may have been improperly manufactured.
February 22, 2011 – US: Toyota recalls an additional 2.17 million vehicles for gas pedals that become trapped on floor hardware.
June 1, 2011 - World: Toyota recalls 106,000 Prius hybrid cars for possible steering problems.
GM still sells more cars than anyone else, has more profit than anyone else, more customers than anyone else. You can laugh all you want, you are just one of the minority. There are 10 million GM customers each year. You cannot even make a dent on that with all your efforts here. Talk about low efficiency; that's 0 mpg...
I think you're simplifying the reasons that industries are made obsolete and move. Industries have come and gone in different parts of the world due to wide-spread changes in fundamentals of the industry. When there is not a fundamental, wide-spread change another owner usually comes in to with different management and marketing techniques to replace the failed management model.
What led to GM's failure wasn't a fundamental, wide-spread problem that forces auto production from the U.S. The proof of that is that foreign manufacturers have opened so many plants here in the U.S. in the last couple of decades.
GM and Chrysler failed because of their management and structural systems, not that some other owners could not figure out how to run auto plants here in the U.S. GM failed because they bought into an expensive and rigid cost structure with their retirees, employees, suppliers, and dealers. Over the decades they were the ones who made the noose, got on the stool and tied their hands behind-their-backs. Tons of history there on how they got to that point - mistreatment of employees, leading to unions who then went too far, ...
It was GM's management system, their arrogance, their inabilty to change due to all these agreements that gave them such high fixed costs ... These things have nothing to do with the ability of the auto industry to exist in the U.S.
GM is nothing but a bunch of papers, the buildings, designs, parts, and property can all be resold to others who want to build autos. All the assets of GM can be transferred to others. If someone dies tomorrow, their business or property can be sold or given away. GM would simply be a little more complicated. Large companies merge, large companies can be dissolved. Go find a list from 50 or 100 years ago and tell us how many of the largest companies in the U.S. are still around!
I think you misinterpret what people are against. We're not against "the home team"; we're against the people running the home-team. Replace the coaches who set the rules for the team, design the plays, and drink all the Gatorade instead of the players.
Replace the owners and coaches, and put the team back out there. Stop giving the owners and coaches incentives and open-ended contracts when they make minimal changes and continue to fail. And replace some of the players if they are playing selfishly, and have crazy internal team rules that hurt the team.
Well done, kernick. Thanks.
To continue this parable: what would you do with the visiting team who has been given great tax breaks and incentives by all levels of government to sell cars and manufacture some of them here? Take a team like Team Toyota, for instance, who hid and misrepresented reports of unintended acceleration when they reported the to NHSTA since 2002?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
And that would have been a great thing for our country. Instead of a triple dip deprecession in which were headed for the double dip soon, we'd be much better off today and on our way to a true recovery.
None. Though a young inexperienced one may have never experienced the low end of a steep cycle and had too wishful thinking.
What brainiac shouldn't know that price of fuel can change rapidly as much of our fuel comes from unstable sandy countries?
I don't think it takes a brainiac, just some common sense.
And what CEO or CFO who is competent shouldn't know that to reduce risk, there should be feasible contingency plans for these cycles and adverse events?
You mean like Southwest did in PRE-BUYING a good percentage of their next 3 years of jet fuel costs while the pricing was good? Imagine if GM had bought enough gas to supply all GM owners with gas for a year at $2/gallon everytime it was $4/gallon or more. Boneheads! I think Chrysler did a $2.99/gallon promised for a year rebate card incentive at one point; not good enough.
The failure of Chrysler and GM had nothing to do with the economic collapse, and everything to do with their own management, assembly lines, and poor product and pricing.
I think it's time for your medicine!
Madoff is the "home team", too. You can have good and bad on the home team. I'll root for Ford!
Not quite making the connection between Madoff and General Motors. At least I'm not aware of a single GM automobile made in Mexico (although some trucks are) as Ford does. And the Aveo is marketed as a 'captive import', although you couldn't give me one, BTW. GM's powertrain warranty lasts for 40K more miles than Ford's too.
HA! Kia is 10 years/100K. Just another large spear in the side of customer satisfaction at GM. Why only 5 years??? So many easy targets! GM is a joke afaic.
Regards,
OW