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GM News, New Models and Market Share

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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,905
    I agree on the Charger, Andre. I just drove home from Harrisburg, PA yesterday and had seen a new Charger and thought how much sharper it looked than the previous iteration. I never liked the cut of the rear door on the old Charger...same as on the Avenger.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    Definitely Pontiac alienated their fan base, and Saturn owners are left searching for a good Chevy dealer as a replacement. LOL, one of my friends went in for a whirring power steering pump on his Vue and they told him he'd be better off just trading it in on an Equinox than to wait for the parts.

    Ironically, that's what put me over the edge with my '08 VUE ... the local "Authorized Saturn Service Center" had problems getting parts on a couple of different occasions, and I was not thrilled in owning an 'orphan' brand, so it got traded in on a Mazda CX-7.

    I'm not a GM hater - my daily driver is an '06 ION, and my dad has owned his 1970 C-10 pickup since new - but it sucks to own a car and have the brand pulled out from under you.

    I'm hoping GM can succeed again and not fall into the same traps that got them into this mess in the first place. You've got to be able to adapt or be run over in this business.
  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    I just drove home from Harrisburg, PA yesterday and had seen a new Charger and thought how much sharper it looked than the previous iteration.

    I, too, like the looks of the new Charger, especially the rear treatment with the LED lights.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Most magazines and especially manufacturers will use whatever method they feel is best. revving the engine in first to nearly redline and then letting go of the brakes is also typical. Nobody drives like this in real life.

    Fifth Gear (the auto show in the U.K.) tested three brand new cars a couple of seasons ago and their 0-60 times using a typical "car is at a stop - hit the accelerator to the floor and go" were 20% slower than manufacturer's claims. One car, a VW, was almost two seconds slower and nothing that they could do would make it go remotely close to the advertised numbers. The worst spread, though, came from the Ariel Atom. They could not come close to the numbers. And they have actual racing drivers on their staff.

    They did specifically mention at the start of the segment that they would not be abusing the cars or driving in a manner that was not typical, implying that the manufacturers and auto magazines are likely doing whatever dirty tricks that they feel are necessary to win the bragging rights.

    Also, another "trick" with many cars is to lock it into winter mode so that it starts in 2nd gear. Again, nobody drives like that, but skipping a shift will save you about a second of time. IIRC, the typical method is start in 2nd, apply brakes, rev hard and then let it go - and keep the transmission manually locked in 2nd through the entire run. Most cars have tall enough gears so that they just hit redline around 60-70 mph in 2nd.

    Again, normal humans don't do idiocy like that. As a result, expect about a 2 second slower time in any car that you actually would own and drive, unless it's something exotic with a DSG gearbox.
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,192
    While there are a few other factors at work here
    [ at least for me ]
    there is simply nothing GM now sells that appeals to me
    nearly as much as the G8 GT that I now drive...
    - Ray
    'Defecting' to BMW...
    2022 X3 M40i
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited July 2011
    You're making a broad assumption that Pontiac and Saturn buyers automatically migrated to Chevy.

    I'm sure that is exactly what GM had in mind.

    Whether or not their wish comes true is another story.

    Dodge didn't pick up all of Plymouth's slack, for instance.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Some mags will brake torque in attempt to get the best possible launch.

    Even that doesn't work on many models any more - electric nannies cut the throttle when the brakes are applied on many models. Blame the sudden acceleration hysteria.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited July 2011
    GM could be doing better in brand retention.

    "But when GM terminated Pontiac instead of Buick, it was out of the conviction that the company could gain share on the lower end of the luxury market with Buick while Chevrolet took over some of Pontiac’s attributes. Beginning before and strengthening after that decision, everything GM has done with Buick has reflected that conviction."

    More Luxury Buyers Would Rather Have A Buick (AutoObserver)

    Automaker struggles to retain buyers loyal to defunct brands (Detroit News)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    In that first article, Dale wrote:

    But when GM terminated Pontiac instead of Buick, it was out of the conviction that the company could gain share on the lower end of the luxury market with Buick while Chevrolet took over some of Pontiac’s attributes

    But he missed the real reason completely - China.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    2nd link didn't work for me, if anyone else can't find it try this URL:

    http://www.detnews.com/article/20110622/AUTO01/106220350

    In 2010, GM retained 36 percent of Pontiac owners who bought new vehicles, as well as 26 percent of Saturn and 39 percent from Hummer, according to California-based research firm J.D. Power & Associates.

    I'm sure those numbers are lower than they hoped for. Ford:

    Ford Motor Co. has done slightly better at holding on to its Mercury customers, last year retaining about 46 percent of them
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited July 2011
    Excellent point.

    "General Motors’ Buick brand is one of the most popular in the country. According to the Brookings Institute, General Motors sold 10 cars in the U.S. for every one car sold in China in 2004. Today, that figure is nearly 1-to-1."

    financialsense.com

    (Thanks for the link fix).
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The irony is what worked for China is also working here.

    Buick just needs to keep a lid on incentives. They are selling the Regal for prices far too low right now.

    The Verano should address that. And it's not just a rebadged Cruze - Buick will actully give it better/unique powertrains.

    I don't see them as Lexus-level, though, probably closer to Acura/VW (at least the old VW). A premium brand, but not luxury.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,035
    Buick sales had been fairly low as of late, but I imagine that the brand was much more profitable than Pontiac. The outgoing LeSabre and Century were fairly popular vehicles, but those numbers were heavily padded by fleet sales.. When they were replaced by the LaCrosse and Lucerne, overall sales fell, but they also greatly reduced sales to fleets, so I'd imagine each unit sold was more profitable.

    In contrast, Pontiac relied mainly on the Grand Prix and G6 (and Grand Am before that) and all of those cars were pushed heavily into fleets. I'd imagine the traditional Pontiac buyer gave up on the brand years ago, and might look back fondly on their old Trans Am, big-block Grand Prix, Catalina, or what have you, and is currently driving some import by now.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited July 2011
    I don't see them as Lexus-level, though

    That's not necessarily a bad thing. Buick just has a narrower product lineup. Lexus is kind of like Buick and Cadillac combined if you consider all of the different models and the price ranges Lexus covers. Buick isn't gong to be selling $60k+ cars & SUVs anytime soon.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited July 2011
    The latter is the type of guy who might be driving that Impala SS we mentioned, if it existed. Bet they drive a Charger or 300C. Or even a Genesis.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yep, and they don't have to, that's Cadillac's job.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    edited July 2011
    I believe Pontiac had a near brush with death in the 1970s. Didn't Pontiac sales drastically fall by the mid-1970s that GM considered dropping the brand?
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Yep, and they don't have to, that's Cadillac's job.

    Exactly. GM is using both Buick and Cadillac to compete with Lexus.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    According to the Brookings Institute, General Motors sold 10 cars in the U.S. for every one car sold in China in 2004. Today, that figure is nearly 1-to-1."

    That's a pretty impressive statistic. Goes to show that into the future, China is a lot more important than the U.S. from a GM sales perspective.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    It's a big deal for Ford too. China's economy seems to be cooing a bit though.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,035
    I believe Pontiac had a near brush with death in the 1970s. Didn't Pontiac sales drastically fall by the mid-1970s that GM considered dropping the brand?

    It was actually around 1982-83, when Pontiac fell below 400K units annually, that GM considered dropping the brand. In 1983 it fell to 6th place, behind Mercury, and that was the lowest it had been in ages.

    Pontiac's troubles started in the 1970's, though. Initially though, it wasn't that Pontiac sales were falling, but rather Buick and Olds started selling better, allowing them to eventually knock Pontiac down from the #3 brand to #5. And then when the oil embargo hit, traditionally popular models like the Catalina and LeMans seemed to suffer more than their equivalents at Chevy, Olds, and Buick. And then, as the economy improved, those models never really came back in popularity.

    In the late 70's, Pontiac's most popular cars were usually the Grand Prix, Firebird/Trans Am, Sunbird, and Bonneville. Unfortunately, the second oil crisis hurt the Bonneville and Grand Prix, although less so the Firebird/TA. And the Sunbird, while still fairly popular, was discontinued after 1980, and wouldn't be directly replaced until the 1982 J2000/Sunbird came out.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    there is simply nothing GM now sells that appeals to me

    Join the Club! :shades:

    Regards,
    OW
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,937
    Ironically, that's what put me over the edge with my '08 VUE

    Man, if I had an '08 that needed parts prior to 2011 even being finished, I'd be mad as hell. I'd be even madder if the parts took forever to find, locate, arrive (probably because they ALL fail and are in high demand too).

    You GM guys put up with a lot of crap!
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    C'mon now, nothing?

    Camaro convertible?

    CTS-V wagon?

    Cruze Eco?

    Equinox?

    Enclave?

    GM has plenty of competitive cars now. You don't like a single one?

    What full-sized pickup would you buy were you in need of a fleet pickup for work?
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,905
    Without even trying, reminds me of Honda Odyssey issues...yes, up to and including 2008.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,192
    C'mon now, nothing?
    no
    Camaro convertible?
    'vert does not interest me - sunroof guy, I am.
    ability to see out of the coupe is very poor
    worse than my 'Vette
    CTS-V wagon?
    drove a CTS-v sedan recently. nice, but no sale
    at that price point - even used.....
    Cruze Eco?
    no no no
    Equinox?
    no no no
    Enclave?
    no no no
    GM has plenty of competitive cars now. You don't like a single one?
    2 things I really like = RWD, heavy on TQ.
    if the 'Vette had a back seat - oh, that's [ kinda ] my G8 GT
    What full-sized pickup would you buy were you in need of a fleet pickup for work?
    based on the fleet our outside sales has, a silverado -
    but not for me, personally....

    YMMV
    2022 X3 M40i
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,905
    Ford Motor Co. has done slightly better at holding on to its Mercury customers, last year retaining about 46 percent of them

    This is not surprising to me. Although GM always got beat up for "badge engineering" (and rightly so, across four or even sometimes five divisions), to me Mercurys were always far more like Fords than had been the case lately for same platforms sold by more than one GM division. Example: Whatever the heck Lincoln called their Fusion car. It was as close to a Fusion as a Cimarron was to a Cavalier in looks. Somehow, nobody complained though.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    OK, but that's taking a narrow view of the overall market.

    You already mentioned you'd pick a Silverado, now what about the CTS-V's price class? What would be your choice?

    You get the space of a 5 series for the price of a 3 series. Add the double-stitched leather on the dash, pick sedan, coupe, wagon, and what's not to like?
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited July 2011
    GM has plenty of competitive cars now. You don't like a single one?

    Your right. GM has competitive cars that I'd at least consider now. But I'd likely buy something else.

    I'd likely pick

    Mustang over Camaro. I just want Ford's 5.0 screamer under the hood and I really don't like the looks of the Camaro, to much style over substance, but that is purely my opinion. Obviously it's going over well as I see them all of the time.

    Focus over Cruze. Nothing wrong with the Cruze, a bit underpowered and I prefer the styling inside and out of the Focus.

    CTS-V/Wagon is interesting, I'd probably buy a BMW or Mercedes for that kind of money even though the V would outperform them, particularly considering I wouldn't be getting an M or AMG for CTS-V money.

    Really can't say on the Equinox as I'm not really interested in a small SUV. So maybe the Equinox is the best choice, can't really say.

    I'll add that I'd go with a 300C over something like the Lacrosse. Big power and RWD. Perfect.

    I prefer the new Explorer and Durango over the Lambdas. I'd probably go Durango for Hemi power and towing ability.

    F150 definitely over the GM trucks, though GM is throwing a ton of money on the hood.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yeah, Mercurys were clones. I test drove a Milan a while ago. Fusion with different colors, basically.

    The MKZ tries to be different, but yeah, another clone, pretty much.

    IIRC Plymouth were pretty much clones of Dodges as well, minus the slow-selling Prowler.
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    GM has 20% of US marginal market share. Only one in 5 chooses GM as new. Their overall share may be 25-30% of all vehicles registered. No other manufacturer does better. It is entirely expected that 4 out of 5 people do not want a GM. It is also entirely expected that 5 out of 6 or an even higher percent of people don't want the vehicle from any of the possible manufacturers. So is it a big deal that OW states his dislike of GM? He represents an 80% majority that choose other than GM. I like being on the road less traveled as a 1 out of fiver that chooses GM.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited July 2011
    I guess the thing is GM at least makes many more shopping lists nowadays.

    Just not circle dub's. :shades:
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Their overall share may be 25-30% of all vehicles registered. No other manufacturer does better.

    Yeah, because they sold many at a loss for many years and dumped many losers onto fleets.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,035
    Camaro convertible?

    I like it, but I view it as more of a fair-weather toy than an everyday car. And I'd rather have a '67-69!

    CTS-V wagon?

    Nice for what it is, and I give 'em credit, but in that size range, it's more of a hatchback than a wagon, and overall, too small for my tastes.

    Cruze Eco?

    If I was looking for an economical, small-ish car, I'd at least give this one a look-over. Size-wise, I look at it as sort of the Dodge Dart of small cars...competing with other compacts, but actually on par with some much bigger cars in many dimensions.

    Equinox?

    Probably competitive, but not my thing

    Enclave?

    I like the looks of it, and the interior looks nice, but overall I never really cared for these rigs. They just seem smallish on the inside, given how bulky they feel on the outside. And the 2nd and 3rd row seats are miserable places to sit, although the Enclave might be a bit better. Again, not really my thing, though.

    What full-sized pickup would you buy were you in need of a fleet pickup for work?

    Dodge Ram. Silverado might be a better choice if you want to get a bargain basement stripper model, but I find that Ram to be seductive!

    Realistically, if I was shopping for a car, I'd want something in the midsized to semi-large range (the true full-sized car, IMO, has gone the way of the mastodon). So, GM has the Malibu, Impala, LaCrosse, Regal, and, until the inventory is depleted, the Lucerne/DTS. The Malibu's decent, but I just find there are a few other cars in its league I like as well, such as the Altima, Accord, Fusion, and Mazda6, so it would be hard for me to pick the Malibu as a clear-cut winner. I'm not that crazy about the new Regal, but maybe it'll grow on me? The LaCrosse has a really nice interior, but I'm not that crazy about the exterior, or its tiny trunk. Impala is just too outdated and has too cramped of a back seat, and poor visibility. DTS is out of my price range, so that would leave, for me, the Lucerne, which I do like, but it's getting a bit long in the tooth as well. And, as soon as I take a look at a Charger (or 300, although I prefer the Charger), the Lucerne sort of slips my mind!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I can't see out of the Camaro coupe, hence why I mentioned convertible. My son liked it, and my nephew loves 'em. More for them, I suppose.

    The Malibu for the bargains alone...and I'm not even a sedan buyer. Look at the deal uplanderguy got.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,905
    Andre, did you make 'Chryslers at Carlisle'? I was invited to go with a friend, and I've have enjoyed it, but work got in the way. I was reminded to ask you by your mention of the current Charger!
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    I can't see out of the Camaro coupe

    I don't think anyone can see out of the coupe.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    he Lucerne sort of slips my mind!


    A used Northstar powered Lucerne might be something to consider. Should be able to get them fairly cheap. No way would I want a 3.9 powered one though. From what I've read it makes my Expedition look sprightly.

    I agree on the Ram as well. Very sweet looking truck. But if I'm going to buy a pickup I want more cargo and towing capacity. If you don't tow and haul a lot of weight the rear coil springs on the Ram probably are an advantage. I really could use a 3/4 ton, but I prefer how a 1/2 ton rides/drives.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I needed a 7-seat SUV - CX-9, Thanks!

    CUV for the eldest kid...CR-V, don't you know!

    Replacement sedan for me :blush: - Optima SX.

    GM had nothing I would even consider. :P

    Regards,
    OW
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,035
    Yeah, I made it up there. Turned out to be the makings of a very expensive trip, too! First, it rained like crazy, and when I went to turn on the 5th Ave's defogger, it wasn't doing a very good job. I tried adjusting it to hot, but it was only blowing out lukewarm at best. Hopefully the heater core's not starting to go!

    That Friday afternoon, the power steering started to grumble a bit. I checked the fluid, and it was a bit low. Bought some at Walmart, and tried pouring it in, but it leaked out almost as fast as it went in! Looked like it was coming out at the pulley. Fortunately it held out for the rest of the trip, and at highway speeds, steering requires very little effort anyway. But, by the time I got it home and in the garage, it got bad enough at low speeds that it's now a good arm workout.

    Oh, and on Saturday night, one of the power windows in back quit working. Naturally, it was down. I was able to get it up a little bit, and then grab it and wrestle it all the way closed.

    I haven't had time to mess with it since, so I've parked it in the back of the garage, behind my LeMans, until I can get to it. I was going to drive the LeMans a bit, to stretch its legs some, so to speak, but then this heat wave got in the way!

    Oh, as for fuel economy, on that Carlisle trip, I figure the 5th Ave got around 17.5 mpg total, which was mostly highway, but included some local running around. In contrast, when I made that same run two weeks before for the GM show, the Catalina only got around 13.9 mpg. But nothing broke on it, so in the long run, it might have proven to be the cheaper car!

    Hopefully the LeMans behaves itself. In a couple weeks, I'm taking it out to a car show near Allentown, PA, around 390 miles round trip.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Just not circle dub's.

    The 'Vette is on my to do list, however! ;)

    Regards,
    OW
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,905
    Yeah, because they sold many at a loss for many years and dumped many losers onto fleets.

    Let's talk now, not then.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,192
    http://money.cnn.com/2011/07/21/autos/chrysler_bailout_costs_gains/index.htm

    'Had GM and Chrysler collapsed, it would have cost the federal government about $28.6 billion in lost tax revenues and assistance to the unemployed in just the first two years alone, according to the Michigan-based Center for Automotive Research. In other words, doing nothing could have cost more than twice as much the bailout.

    By the way, that $28.6 billion figure doesn't include the business taxes the federal government would have lost but can now expect from two large, profitable automakers and their suppliers. It also doesn't include any lost state and local tax revenue.'
    2022 X3 M40i
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I had no doubt it was worthwhile, even necessary.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    edited July 2011
    Let's talk now, not then.

    OK! Let's Talk!

    Now, they got their butts shaved in C-11 and got real good auto religion...shows in the 'Bu (used to be Rent-A-bu), Equinox (former Eau-quinox :blush: ) and '08 CTS (formerly the Cimm-tation) and the Lamda clones. The Cruze is a borrow from Europe, much like the G-8 from Down-Under (Why did they dump this winner in the USA???) but it's finally a competitive small car. There was no other competition for the Civ-rolla until this year. '10 LaCrosse and now the Regal (Euro-derived yet again) gave Buick a reason to exist. The 'Vette is still the single example of uninterrupted automobile development since born from concept in GM's history. Sad, because they had a slew of great cars back when, which we can't talk about at this time!!

    Let's be real. They just starting making competitive cars for RETAIL CUSTOMERS very recently. You don't have to admit it as your experience tells a different story (Read: LEMKO-Grade Quality Rating).

    I really hope they continue and the diseased-ridden business issues will be defended against 'till Death's door. We'll see...UAW has cocked their trigger.... :sick:

    They are the market leaders at the moment. I respect that. :)

    Regards,
    OW
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,905
    edited July 2011
    The Malibu for the bargains alone...and I'm not even a sedan buyer.

    I love the Malibu in profile. I don't think anything in its class looks as regal in profile. Ours is Black Granite Metallic and has the "Ultra Bright" wheels, which is comical to me as they're not very bright...not mirror-like by any stretch, although they are polished and the cutouts are dark. I like them better than the 2LT wheels that ARE very bright--our wheels are the third wheels shown from the left:

    http://www.chevrolet.com/malibu/pictures/

    I like the Malibu's instrument panel, and that a feature line of trim from the panel goes over to the doors too. I do wish the door panels were soft vinyl, but I can forgive that for the price. I'm only 5'8", but I think there's plenty of legroom in the back seat, too.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    The 'Bu is a great ride. I like it in burgundy as well. Had a '77 GP in the same color.

    But black is where it's at! Cool! :shades:

    Regards,
    OW
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The Cruze is a borrow from Europe, much like the G-8 from Down-Under

    Yet both are GM-owned subsidiaries. That doesn't count?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    5 split spokes? I like those.

    The only view on the 'bu I do not like is the rear. The tail lights seem orphaned.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    'Had GM and Chrysler collapsed, it would have cost the federal government about $28.6 billion in lost tax revenues and assistance to the unemployed in just the first two years alone, according to the Michigan-based Center for Automotive Research. In other words, doing nothing could have cost more than twice as much the bailout.

    By the way, that $28.6 billion figure doesn't include the business taxes the federal government would have lost but can now expect from two large, profitable automakers and their suppliers. It also doesn't include any lost state and local tax revenue.'


    1. I've heard enough projections from the government and economists to know that these numbers have a 500% uncertainty factor.
    2. If GM and C had failed, what we will never know is what new companies or opportunities would have occurred which might have added tax revenue, major new industries, or new competitiveness to the U.S.
    3. Using that logic, the government should just jump into any business dealing that it thinks could be done differently, or better.
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