GM News, New Models and Market Share

dave8697

A lot of time spent on here trying to put down GM. What cars belong on a list of poor performers. Cars that are in production today that are losing market share, way down on the sales volume list, or suffering badly in sales due to really bad engineering or reliability? Or about to be phased out due to kack of interest?

Which GM cars belong on such a list?
Aveo is getting phased out but Sonic will replace it so it's not for lack of interest.
Not sure about Colorado success.
titan?
tunda?

fintail

Funny thing, the angular boxy W212 E-class has the same drag coefficient as the Prius

ateixeira

Put simply, Volt could have been a lot better.

Edit: this statement sounds a *lot* like censorship:

A lot of time spent on here trying to put down GM

ateixeira

But a much greater frontal area.

fintail

And much more size and weight, and not seriously worse mileage given the extra driving ability. I've never been behind one merging onto a highway at 35mph either.

ateixeira

The Diesel, maybe...if you're on a highway.

fintail

That's the only non-AMG one I would even think of putting in my garage.

To be on topic...a CTS with a world class diesel would be interesting.

ateixeira

GM is understandably gun shy, but I've love to see one.

e_net_rider

I think you all need a reality check. I owned a 09 Malibu LT2 I4AT6. And now an 11 Buick Lacrosse CXS loaded. Real safety issues with Malibu that I made them buy it back. And now the Buick is even worse.
As someone posted earlier, GM is like a battleship when it comes to turning around. Even worse, they are the same with minor course corrections. An issue that I was aware of in 96 Olds Aurora had been fixed prior to my buying. The problem was known to cause EBCM, electronic brake control modules, to fail. They left the same exact parts out of 09 Malibu and the fix was exactly the same. That is 13 years that they were not able to get it right!
And what are the chances of getting two lemons in a row? I'd guess pretty small so I was dumbfounded when I started getting intermittantly sticking brake calipers on the second new vehicle. Yep, a basic part. But try this. It came with a defective oil filter from factory causing dry starts. And even worse, GM fixes break more. The SBZA is now useless and the new column they put in because of a bad latch now has play in the steering. On third battery too. So from a simple point, because their CAF don't work as AC Delco was advertising, they can't build simple parts like oil filters, air filters, and batteries. Do you really think they can build a good car?

uplanderguy

I believe you've had issues, but a story like yours is absolutely dumbfounding to me. Three batteries? Defective oil filter? And there's no bulletin on this? Left identical brake parts out of a '96 and '09 by the same owner? You are like Forrest Gump. I'm sorry to hear of your issues. I have had nothing like that in my GM's.

circlew

I feel your pain as in 2003 a $45K SUV gave me more problems than any other automobile purchase in my family!

Take a look at the Enclave Ac issues forum for the same pain...

I am totally GM-Free at the moment.

I'll wager you are on the same glide-path going forward....

Regards,
OW

circlew

Yes, there are many others with GM burns all over their wallets!

I love the customer service post on these forums, however "Sorry for your pain" "Please send me your issues".

Here's only one example regarding the Encalve AC issues but I know the feeling. Trannys an issue as well!!!!

Hi Benz

We have had no problems so far this summer with the AC (knock on wood) which is fortunate considering we have had temps well over 100 degrees for days. The last repair (#7) was sometime last fall. There were leaks underneath the car that they were finally able to see because of dye and a black light. I'm sorry I don't know the technical term for what it was but I do know they used dye and a black light to spot it. Now, they put the dye in on the 6th repair and didn't see anything. It took until the 7th repair for the dye to make its way down into the system where they could see it with the black light.

On another note...I just had my third transmission put in. Maybe one of these days GM will step up to the plate and do the right thing. Good luck!

What, the dealers are exclusive to good service? Mine was for the GMC!

The Buick-Pontiac-GMC sign lost a brand but I will NEVER buy from that dealer again. They couldn't even diagnose a sensor issue that was life-threatening in my case! :lemon:

Service "Like a Rock"....Surely "Runs Deep" when dropped into the ocean of Exemplary Customer Service, don't you think? :surprise:

Regards,
OW

uplanderguy

Enclave AC posts on Edmunds: 67
CRV AC posts on Edmunds: 1,888

No excuses...on either side.

circlew

Exactly and agreed. But when your on the side of the issue, you flog the company, no? Or just say: "I'm glad we bailed out GM so we get another chance at the 'Roulette Wheel' when we buy another product from them! Glad they were saved!" This is a GM forum, after all.

49% market share down to 20% says it all.

BTW, 2008 CR-V...50K...never seen the dealer for any issue whatsoever...A/C is colder than Iceland in 119 Degree heat index this past week! Go Honda! No need for ME to post any issue over on the Honda forums, now, is there?

GMC Denali A/C compressor failed at ~ 50K miles. Luckily I bought the extended warranty.

Regards,
OW

imidazol97

>Give them credit for understanding the marketing value of being a hybrid/image leader.

Exactly right. And with the bean counters at GM that was a value that the corporation couldn't get through their heads for a long time. Their layers of control were too, well, corporation like, while toyota, who aspired to the number 1 position, was operated like a family-owned business where the top could say that we'll spend 300 million on this and lose that but it will be valuable.

uplanderguy

My $9,900 (new) '08 Cobalt with 49K miles has ice-cold A/C. I guess I need to be braggin' that up!

circlew

Yep! Sounds a lot different when you have a $45K Enclave with drastic issues and poor service. You brought up the CR-V!

Regards,
OW

berri

We were very close to buying an Equinox a few months ago until we saw all of the blog issues. Its a nice vehicle with better seating than the CRV. The reason we left GM some years back was a combination of inconsistent quality - one guys car would have all kinds of issues while another just like it was problem free and the all too frequent inability of the dealers to resolve problems or get timely delivery of parts for repairs. We just tired of it and lost confidence in the company. I think its turning around, but there are still residual issues that have to be worked out. Also, I think they still have a lot of mediocre to poor dealership service departments around. We ended up with a CRV - decided we didn't want to risk the potential time, hassles and money while GM still solves teething problems. On the positive side for GM, the Escape is way too obsolete and the RAV4 is pretty much the same with the dumb back end swinging door and still using a 4 speed auto. The Nissan Rogue just seems to not excel at anything. So if GM gets this vehicle turned around it could become a leader. If it doesn't, those good Equinox sales volumes today may be toast down the road.

circlew

Congrats on your CR-V and wish you the best. It's a great vehicle. My daughter takes ownership of ours in the fall when she becomes a Senior in HS.

Agree GM is getting better but not there yet, afaic.

Regards,
OW

uplanderguy

1,888 comments on CRV AC issues didn't give you pause? I'm honestly asking the question.

lemko

I've been having issues with the A/C in my Mercury Grand Marquis, so it isn't confined to GM.

lemko

Heck, my 1989 Cadillac Brougham still has ice-cold A/C. The system has never been opened up and still has the good R-12 refrigerant.

lemko

A co-worker of mine has a Nissan Rogue with a leaky rear window the dealer seem unable to repair.

berri

1,888 comments on CRV AC issues didn't give you pause?

Nope, had an 04 with 90K and no big problems. Plus, dealer handled any issue that came up the first time without having to go back or wait for any parts. Excellent resale by the way.

imidazol97

>1,888 comments on CRV AC issues didn't give you pause?

Lutz touched on that reliability of Asian brands in his book. The people owning them will have a windshield wiper fall off and they pass it off as just a one-time occurance--someone must have forgotten to tighten a bolt! If it were to have occurred on a GM car, it was a reliability factor.

All the AC posts on CRVs and transmissions posts now in Odyssey have me holding my stomach laughing. Many of the same people who 8 years ago thought they were buying a perfect vehicle from the perfect companies are now angry as hell. And it builds because the salvation for Hotoy before was that the company extended warranty or helped pay a lot of the inflated costs for fixing things that went wrong. Now they are telling the owners "It's your problem."

I laugh at their naivete rather than at their own financial plights.

All I can say to them, is welcome to the world of reliability based on reputation and hearsay rather than on reality of NOW. Now if those buyers said, "I didn't like certain things about the current GM offering and I bought the (other vehicle) because it had more that I liked," then that's a different story. When they buy because Joe blow and the media have portrayed certain vehicles and brands as den wunderauto for the past 20 years, I have little sympathy.

I have to parallel that with kids who choose Ohio State University because they have a good football them, and then figure out through the year that the football team has little to do with the academics--which is the case with at least one OSU student this year.

If I were looking for a new car in the near future, I would check and test drive, if the dealer allows, Kia, Hyundai, Honda Civic, etc. I would be open minded about the choices. I certainly wouldn't spend time on their forums telling people how awful their choices are--with the exception of toyota which deceived people from 2002 on with reports and data to the NHSTA, e.g.

uplanderguy

I have to parallel that with kids who choose Ohio State University because they have a good football them, and then figure out through the year that the football team has little to do with the academics--which is the case with at least one OSU student this year.

I had to laugh at this. My daughter is looking at colleges now. We didn't even want her to look at OSU--too big in our opinion, and I call it a football team with a college attached. As it is, she is loving Miami of OH after seeing it. Gotta figure some way to pay for it now .

imidazol97

You've got a wrong impression of OSU. Lots of prestigious departments with great reputations. The distance from one dorm to other dorms at Miami is longer than the distances at OSU, bordered by the river, Lane, High, and 12th Avenue (there is a West Campus for Agriculture as a land grant college). My son was offered extra scholarship by the department to attend the Miami Univ. department for his field of study. But he had always liked OSU and after we were there for Science Olympiad a few years back, he really wanted OSU.

Already the strengths of so many fields of study are allowing him to shift his interests. If your student has a good academic record, I'd suggest contacting the Honors Program and seeing if they have a workshop to attend. The dorms at OSU are segregated somewhat by field of study. That makes the school seem smaller.

As President Gee said, it's nice not having to say you're sorry but we don't offer that field of study you're hoping to switch into.

Re the students attending there because of the strong athletic program and discovering college is about academics, that's what happened to my son's roommate. They were 2 in an Honors dorm suite of 8 where the others were sophomores. His roommate was more interested in the sports and fraternities (a big point at Miami). For someone planning computer engineering and medicine, that's off track. His parents having him now attending the other OSU for next year (Oklahoma).

>As it is, she is loving Miami of OH after seeing it.

Remember, it's not called "Cradle of Coaches" because there is no focus on sports there!

To be on topic--sort of--we drove to these in GM cars.

ateixeira

RAV4 is pretty much the same with the dumb back end swinging door and still using a 4 speed auto

Agreed on the backwards opening rear door, but the V6 models do get a 5 speed auto, at least.

It's gotta be ripe for a re-do anyway.

ateixeira

Many of the same people who 8 years ago thought they were buying a perfect vehicle from the perfect companies

Completely unreasonable expectation. Of course they were bound to be disappointed, but that doesn't mean their 8 year old car isn't more reliable than the average car. Honda and Toyota spend far less per car on warranty costs vs. the industry average.

Imperfect does not mean unreliable.

Go ahead and list off the exceptions. That's why there were news - they were exceptions.

toyota which deceived people from 2002 on with reports and data to the NHSTA,

Are you referring to the infamous Books of Knowledge? Remember - they showed exactly nothing. When made public, the lawsuits were actually dropped.

berri

The people owning them will have a windshield wiper fall off and they pass it off as just a one-time occurance--someone must have forgotten to tighten a bolt! If it were to have occurred on a GM car, it was a reliability factor

Honestly, its the opposite for me. I pay a premium for a Honda, so if something goes wrong, I'm less accepting. I had a couple of relatively small repairs, like a power window actuator. I was very upset when it happened even though it wasn't very expensive. I would have been more accepting if it happened on my lower priced Ford. Regarding CRV AC, it is a problem shown in CR. The service guy admits it too, but says its nowhere near even half of them. He also said it ironically seems more prevalent on the Japanese ones, than the British manufactured ones. I've noticed more AC issues in general on cars recently, wonder if they are cheapening with China parts?

The issue for GM is that they need to improve on initial new model teething issues. The 11 Equinox should have had them all resolved. Toyota learned this lesson the hard wayon the 07 Camry long before the SUA fiasco. Frankly, the Equinox is a nicer vehicle, but as a previous GM owner, I was a bit leery and backed off after seeing the same stalling and electronic glitch issues carried over from the initial 10 model.

ateixeira

The transmission logic issues on the U660E transmissions (that's Toyota's 6EAT from the Camry) were well documented, but ironically the similar issues in the early GM Lambdas is often overlooked.

It makes major headlines when Toyota has an issue (CR stopped recommending them). I only heard about the Enclave/Acadia/Outlook trans issues because I was hanging out in the Crossovers thread.

Generally speaking the v1.0 from any model, import or domestic, is generally a greater risk simply because there is no established reliability history.

The U151E 5 speed auto was proven and that's what I got in my '07 Sienna.

berri

The Big 10 schools are all good academically and very competitive and large. The nice thing about the midwest is all the good land grant state universities, so you are not as likely as someone in the east having to end up paying for more expensive private colleges. People don't always appreciate that if they haven't lived elsewhere.

uplanderguy

I should have a more open-minded opinion about OSU. My wife and I are both from small towns under 10K population (and not suburbia, either). I tend to have a dislike for things that are huge and stuff that is hyped to death (like OSU football IMO!). My coworker, a '69 Miami of OH grad, did tell me the 'cradle of coaches' story. Hey, we live in Kent, OH and our daughter had no desire to look at KSU at all...kids in school say "Can't read, can't write, Kent State"! No doubt unfair, and untrue, but you know how it goes!

fezo

Hey! We have land grant universities in the east. I went to one - Rutgers.

greg128

I must say that the A/C in my 2006 Silverado is absolutely freezing. Of course being a regular cab with no back seat probably helps.

While driving around recently during this heat wave on the east coast I took a very casual notice of different makes and whether people had their windows closed or open. Naturally when it is around 100 degrees the only people who have their windows open have non-working A/C.

I noticed quite a few fairly late model Hondas with open windows, along with a smattering Toyotas and Nissans. At least half of the older cars had
no A/C. But I was surprised to see most older GM vehicles (around 2000
model year) had working A/C.

I know that there is an issue in Honda models, especially the CRV. When the compressor blows it ruins the entire system resulting in Dealer quotes
of up to $4000. It wasn't all that long ago that amount would buy an engine and transmission.

greg128

When they buy because Joe blow and the media have portrayed certain vehicles and brands as den wunderauto for the past 20 years, I have little sympathy.

How about the cracked block issues with mid-2000 Honda Civics and Nissan Altima's oil burning and engine failures. Or Mazda RX-8 owners requiring 3 new engines in their first 50,000 miles?

greg128

Just trying out the 3-post-in-a-row blitzkrieg tactic. I have to admit it is very
effective.

berri

I know and Rutgers is a good school. But the east doesn't have near as many per capita and that's why so many there have to pay $$$ for private colleges compared to some other parts of the country. Heck Fezo, that's why you guys out there all make those big bucks!

andre1969

I know that there is an issue in Honda models, especially the CRV. When the compressor blows it ruins the entire system resulting in Dealer quotes
of up to $4000. It wasn't all that long ago that amount would buy an engine and transmission.

In a roundabout way, I suffered the wrath of one of those Honda systems, to the tune of about $1400. I don't know if it's still the case, but at one time, Honda and Mopar were getting their a/c units from the same source...Nippondenso or something like that? Back in February of '09, while running the defrost, the compressor seized up in my 2000 Intrepid, and did a good little number on the whole a/c system. I think the compressor itself was around $500-600, but with labor, flushing the system, and replacing some other stuff (plus a new a/c belt), it came to around $1400.

Admittedly, it was my fault, though. I knew it had a slow freon leak, but I was trying to hold off until warmer weather before getting it fixed.

uplanderguy

Forgot to mention, Andre, you should win some kind of "Hard Luck" award for your trip to and from 'Chryslers at Carlisle'!

andre1969

Forgot to mention, Andre, you should win some kind of "Hard Luck" award for your trip to and from 'Chryslers at Carlisle'!

If I had any common sense, I should probably just cut my losses with that 5th Ave, sell it for what I can, or even junk it. But I've had it almost 10 years now, and it's like a part of the family. So, I'm probably gonna break down and get the power steering pump fixed, at least. I can live with the broken power window motor in back, and when I have the free time, can fix it myself. In fact, I fixed it once before, about 9 years ago. It wasn't working, so I replaced it with one of the power window motors from my '89 Gran Fury, which wasn't running by that time, and I later sold for parts.

Lately though, I've been getting a lust for a 1961-62 Cadillac, preferably a convertible! For some reason, seeing that insurance company commercial where the white one takes out two Miatas when trying to parallel park, renewed my interest in them!

One of those would set me back a few bucks more than a '79 New Yorker, though!

lemko

If you're seriously looking for a 1961-62 Cadillac, I can probably find one for you.

andre1969

Thanks Lemko. Right now it's just wishful thinking, but I'll let you know if and when I get serious. A lot of it depends on what happens to the economy on August 2nd. If interest rates start going up too bad, I have a feeling most of my effort is going to paying down my adjustable mortgage! :surprise:

ateixeira

I've been getting a lust for a 1961-62 Cadillac, preferably a convertible!

That would be sweet.

Just promise you won't take out my Miata.

lemko: how much for one of those in decent shape? As a weekend runner?

All the nice 4-seat convertibles nowadays cost $50 grand.

andre1969

Just promise you won't take out my Miata.

I promise. Oh, and ironically, that same company (its name eludes me and that's bugging me now!) has another commercial where they destroy two Park Aves, and another where they destroy two Intrepids, both similar vintage to my cars. :surprise:

As for pricing, I did a quick search on eBay, and found a few Caddies of that vintage. Here's a black 1962 with a buy-it-now of $29K Doesn't look bad, although the top's pretty wrinkly, and I'm sure on closer inspection, I'd find other issues with it. Found another that was only around $8250, but I quit reading when I saw the words "Chevy 350" :sick:

uplanderguy

I've only been a month without my last Studebaker, and I already can't stand it. I sold both for good $$ that I didn't think I could get in the 'States. I'm looking into, now, a Rose Mist '63 Cruiser 4-door (my favorite 4-door Stude) with 39K miles, supposedly zero rust, disc brakes, new paint, and ready-to-go, near Plymouth, MA. Wish me luck.

I like '61 and most '62 GM big cars. I know you want a Caddy convertible, but have you ever seen those "short deck" Caddys from that period? I believe they were called "Park Avenue". You never see them now. There you go...be a "two Park Avenue" guy!

lemko

Collector Car Market Review Value Report
1962 CADILLAC SERIES 62 390-325hp (8cyl-4V) AT

From #5 (Parts Car) to #1 Condition:

2dr Convertible: $3,350 / $8,825 / $16,050 / $26,500 / $40,100

2dr Hardtop: $900 / $3,275 / $7,225 / $12,075 / $20,425

Town Sdn 4dr Hardtop: $900 / $2,550 / $5,875 / $8,775 / $12,500

6 Window 4dr Hardtop: $850 / $2,425 / $5,550 / $8,350 / $11,875

4 Window 4dr Hardtop: $875 / $2,500 / $5,750 / $8,600 / $12,250

andre1969

I like '61 and most '62 GM big cars. I know you want a Caddy convertible, but have you ever seen those "short deck" Caddys from that period? I believe they were called "Park Avenue". You never see them now. There you go...be a "two Park Avenue" guy!

I think there was one at the Hershey show a couple years ago. I think they look kinda weird with the short trunk, but I'd still take one. I think the only models I really don't like is the '61 4-window hardtop:


and the '61 hardtop coupe:


I just think the C-pillar and rear window areas don't blend that well with the rest of the car. They were more formal for '62.

lemko

They don't look small until you see them next to a "regular" Series 62 or DeVille.

ateixeira

Now there's a Yank Tank. I'd love to have one of those.

Dad used to own a '72 Buick Electra, did they ever make convertibles out of those? If I won the lottery I'd buy him a restored one.