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Comments
The point is they are not yet honed in to providing world-class beating, designed/built and supported in the USA sedans or econoboxes that most people desire (over the comp). They needed to import the winners and the G-8 move just shows some decisionmaker's head is stuffed real far up someone's.....you get the drift!
Hope it changes for the better. The Cruze is a great example. The Sonic looks good as well!
Regards,
OW
Ateixeira, you are exactly right according to Lutz's book. The China acceptance of the Buick nameplate was profitable. That supported the development of the new Buicks to continue the marque.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The G-8 also seemed like a steal for the money. I imagine that GM wasn't making a whole lot of profit per unit, but I could be wrong.
Even though I like the new Dodge Charger a lot, if GM had kept the G-8 around in some iteration, either as a Chevy or a Buick, I'd be hard pressed to choose between the two!
I will of my own free volition agree with you on this. I don't hate the taillights; I do think they're rather boring though.
Wrong!!!!
The 28.6 billion in lost tax revenues would have been gained and recouped dollar for dollar by increased tax revenues from Ford, Honda, Toyota, VW, BMW and everyone else. What Michican would have lost others would have gained. Such a CRAZY narrow view of the world such talk is. The bigger picture clearly shows that the bailouts were a complete and utter waste of money. We'd of been MUCH better off burning the federal treasury down to ash with all the paper money being burned, all the gold bars melted into ash and evaporated. Heck, while were at it, we could of burned down all of Washington DC and received insurance monies from fire claims. What a great idea! Far superior to bailing out failed companies and failed business models.
Just imagine all the revenue and taxation from rebuilding all of Washington DC!!!
maybe we could give those guys platinum plated floors, gold plated curtains, and silver plated ceilings while were at it. Heck, maybe the windows could be made of diamond instead of glass. that'll raise the bill and increase revenues and taxation too! for that matter, why don't we make sure that the entire city is enclosed indoors, so that weather related deterioration is reduced and depreciation is avoided; they'll last a million years with the same roof!
Some suppliers would have gained and won, some would have lost, it all ends up the same in the end.
Yes, that is an insult!
that line needs about 10 of these: **********
and about, 1,2,3,4 5, 6, 7 , 8, 9 , 10 footnotes.
ASSUMING 100% of laid off employees stayed 100% unemployed 100% of the time for 104 weeks *(which by the way, is longer than the 99 weeks unemployment benefits last)*
Nonsense and drivel and lies is all that is.
there's a lot wrong in this country. The Bailout cost has been whittled down to 14.3 billion. That's a weekend of Obama overspending at most. We need to stop reliving a weekend from 3 years ago and see what we can do about real problems.
Make a list of the ten biggest problems this country faces. If your list includes "we need revenge against the employees of GM (our next door neighbors), by making them pay back the $11B or whatever" then I'd like to see the rest of your list for entertainment purposes.
Debt % of GDP approaching that of Greece
50 million don't pay any taxes
9.2% unemployment
No real estate recovery
bankrupt STATES
1 in 7 on food stamps
$3.80 gas
7000 high school dropouts per day
10000 baby boomers retiring every day
from the list of 9 items above, where would you insert the "weekend of new debt", if it makes your top ten?
I doubt I could put the bailout in a top 100 list. The gov already spent $29 billion hiring additional IRS agents to enforce Obamacare.
According to reality, GM failed because of their disaster auto legacy. That they will not pay the debt back was expected. What else would one expect from a failure of an auto company??
Regards,
OW
Maybe that'll be GM (and Chrysler) in three years.
50 million don't pay any taxes
9.2% unemployment
No real estate recovery
bankrupt STATES
1 in 7 on food stamps
$3.80 gas
7000 high school dropouts per day
10000 baby boomers retiring every day
I like this list. I'd add:
- U.S. education and technical leadership rapidly declining
GM completely capitulated in the strongest nation on earth. The others are a blip in the world economy yet they continue to eat GM's lunch.
Who is winning in reality?
Regards,
OW
Not out of the question...unless the UAW repeats history, that is!
Regards,
OW
But our politicians continue with the same type policies over the last 5 decades, dragging this country down. The U.S. government has given charity to every country in this world and to its own citizens, such that it has created groups and populations that now expect that as a norm. I know personally that I'm considering whether it is worth getting up each day and going to work. By the time I'm done paying my taxes, my annual increases in medical bills, my $9K annual property tax bill, and the attack on my savings by the Fed and other government agencies on the value of our $$-saved, I'm pretty frustrated.
I want all but the most urgent charity stopped from our government. You had better be more disabled than Steven Hawking (he's working!), before you come looking for handouts. I'm very tired of seeing people who don't want to work collecting (too bad you're an accountant by training, and the only jobs left are at the 7-11 midnight shift).
Bailouts are a very bad idea, because they just set the example that this is "the norm and expected" and "why not again because there is precedent for them". Whether TARP or the GM bailouts individually lost only a little or made some $, they BUILD THE PHILOSOPHY that the system is NOT FAIR. It sends this message to 300+M people.
So when you hear about Wall Street doing risky things again, banks screwing with foreclosures, people walking away from mortgages, people doing drive-offs at gas stations ... much of this moral decay is because people think they will get bailed out, OR they feel they're the ones doing the bailing and now want revenge of getting something from the system too.
So when you see all these negative statistics, teens with little to no hope, ask yourself why they learn it's better to be a criminal or collect, than to even try to work.
I read an article somewhere that said some schools don't even teach science as part of the regular curriculum anymore. If you want it, it's after-school, and extra-cost.
I have a buddy who's a high school teacher, and he says that they quit teaching kids how to diagram sentences years ago. I think I learned it back in the 6th grade!
Now, maybe diagramming sentences properly isn't going to make you any better at flipping a burger, digging a ditch, shorting a stock, or outsourcing your labor to Mexico. But, it at least taught you something about how the English language works, and forced you to use a few brain cells!
LOL, that reminds me of something that happened to me in elementary school. In second grade, they didn't teach our class cursive writing, but for some reason, in third grade, they expected us to know it! Turns out, some of the second grade classes were taught it and others weren't, and they mixed and matched us for 3rd grade, so some of us had to catch up really fast!
So evidently, our public school system started getting uncoordinated decades ago! Oh, and in the summer of '79 we moved, and I started 4th grade in another county. At least, I was SUPPOSED to start 4th grade. The einsteins who ran that school stuck me in FIFTH grade initially, because I was tall for my age and they thought I was older than I was! They did catch their little error after a few hours, at least...
The parade will help kick off the fair Aug. 17 in Barton, which among other things was the boyhood home of Henry Leland. A stellar engineer and somewhat unlucky businessman, Leland created and sold Cadillac, then created and lost Lincoln.
In his memory, and because it sounded like fun, and furthermore because it could attract some tourists and attention, Lorie Seadale talked her fellow officers at the fair into challenging the record. It's held by a car club in the Netherlands, of all places, that gathered 102 Caddies a few years ago and had the foresight to point out that no one had ever bothered to do that before."
Vermont Cadillac parade gets GM's blessing, financial aid (Detroit News)
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Henry Ford reportedly failed and went bust five times before he made it. Not to mention that Ford hocked everything to avoid going banko just a couple of years ago.
If GM comes back like Kia did, Ford better watch out.
Absolutely, they should, but they won't.
And despite the multiple bailouts that the Korean government has given Hyundai/Kia in the past (despite the Wiki claim), they'll give 'em a pass and still ridicule GM because it was "their tax dollars" that was used.
Got news for them: their "tax dollars" went, and continue to go to, a LOT of other "social programs" and "aid" that deserves it far less than GM and Chrysler.
But no, let's go after Chrysler and GM for the government $$$$ that was used to SAVE JOBS, and use it to "aid" deadbeat families that refuse to even LOOK FOR A JOB! Makes perfect sense to me... :sick:
Seems they got auto-religion eons faster then GM, don't you agree?
Regards,
OW
Well, OW has spoken, and thus it is so!
Sales numbers be damned.
Give us a break. Let's call it a draw...both Koreans and US manufactures are utter failed disasters, right? Now, let's see who is providing better products and stand behind their products and are more desirable to proportionally more customers?
Regards,
OW
The way I heard it, Kia was bankrupt and the South Korean government forced Hyundai to bail them out.
The other key for me is the performance factor GM does not give you in the price range for mid-size segment. :shades: It's quite inspiring to experience this and still get in the 30's mpg on the highway. So far, combined 22-26 tank-tank depending on level of spirited pressure on the throttle!
I'll agree their suspension/steering needs improvement. Don't even get me started on necessary improvements in GM' deliverables....
Regards,
OW
I think you're wrong in assuming that the people here who criticize the GM & Chrysler bailouts only criticize that bailout. I believe all bailouts are bad and those that fail should be allowed to do so. The government should only step in to facilitate the return to normal business following the failure - i.e. have processes that take days, not months of legal mumble-jumble.
Personally I am against all bailouts, all foreign aid, and most safety net programs for the lazy and indifferent in this country. And I'm also against doing business with any companies and countries that bailout and aid their industry to get an unfair advantage. It is our perverse government system that is controlled by the wealthy, and who pander for votes from "those eternally in need", that screw things up. Ask yourself why our politicians never stopped trade with many of these subsidized and bailed out foreign companies? The U.S. didn't need to trade with many of these countries; it was they that needed us as a market.
The people who are against these policies are the same people who probably say "let's play Monopoly by the rules".
So when you criticize those who want a return to fairness in business, and a return to a work ethic here in the U.S., with the U.S. politicians doing what's good for the U.S. as a whole, you are doing nothing more than playing into the hands of the wealthy and corporate powers that control many of the governments of the world.
The TARP and auto bailouts weren't done to help middle class or UAW workers; though there was that side benefit. The bailouts were done to protect those with power and wealth, protect that power and wealth. Do a little research on how Cerberus, led by former VP Dan Quayle, was able to walk away from their ownership of Chrysler, without much suffering. The rich stuck it to the taxpayer.
The rich win whether they win or lose. That is who you should direct your anger at; not those here who point that out.
The topic lends itself more to a political discussion forum in that case. There may be a forum already about the bailouts.
In re GM, the bailout is done. It's in place. It kept jobs. The continual repetition here that GM didn't do this right in the past or they should have done that instead or that this car wasn't the way that some higher power would have ordained it be done gets super boring.
In fact, the repetition is discussed well in Lutz's book as the media know-it-alls never could find anything good in what GM had done and at the same time couldn't see anything wrong in what the wunderkind Asia car companies were doing. E.g., when the 2008 double whammy of fiscal money supply problems and the higher gas prices were in place, the media criticized GM for having a large part of their build in the pickup trucks and SUVs that the American people were wanting to buy (that makes the company money) and for being so dumb they didn't see the gas price increase coming and prepare for it as the media declared the Asian companies had done. Of course, for historical reasons the Asian companies had a small car mix as new companies--they were trying to take the larger market from the US companies.
At the same time while criticizing GM's well-selliing mix of trucks and SUVS, the Toyota company had just finished putting (I'm on recall here) $1.3 billion into a plant for large trucks. Asian companies were trying to expand into the large vehicle market for which GM was being criticized. But not a word of itching about that from the media folks, who seem to have all the answers for business management, after the fact of course.
A second reading of Lutz's book has allowed me to pick up on his many criticisms of the media and the Toyota company.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Not more than 3 years ago, there were 43 models/trims in the GM fold that were available with a V8. Only 7 that weren't...
And then there was this which was pretty much the cherry on top:
Btw, Toyota had 9 models with V8's and almost 20 without... and had the highest fleet mpg average in the business.
Big diff...
And???
>And then there was this which was pretty much the cherry on top:
You need to put in the trophy suburban housewife with blond hair to finish off the media stereotype.
Lutz also addresses that mistake. He suggested that the Hummer should have been appended to the GMC line rather than a separate line. Then it would have been easy to discontinue the Hummer GMC instead of killing a whole line.
Lutz also points out that some of those toyotas don't get such good gas mileage as the vehicle the media chose as the poster child for their criticism of GM. I don't have the book in front of me, but Lutz mentions asking a lady in a gas station at the fuel pump how her mileage was with the Highlander she had chosen. She gave him a number which was LOW. He pointed out the EPA number for a competing GM model was about 50% higher. She brushed off his comment.
Of course the Hummers so well criticized do much better than some of the glamour cars the media love but don't make them a poster child because of their low, low gas mileage: I'm guessing which ones he cited, but we'll suggest Lamborghini as a start.
Reminds me of being in downtown Columbus while scoping out parking for my son's summer job. It was around 5 pm and a Ferrari came out of a parking garage and turned in front of us into rush hour traffic leaving downtown. Talk about conspicuous consumption--would it be more or less than a Hummer3 in fuel mileage.
I need a digital form of his book to be able to search for references. It's difficult to find the paragraphs in the paper copy. And mine goes back to the library.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Lutz also points out that some of those toyotas don't get such good gas mileage as the vehicle the media chose as the poster child for their criticism of GM. I don't have the book in front of me, but Lutz mentions asking a lady in a gas station at the fuel pump how her mileage was with the Highlander she had chosen. She gave him a number which was LOW. He pointed out the EPA number for a competing GM model was about 50% higher. She brushed off his comment.
Ya, he probably showed her a Geo tracker and claimed it was in the same class... The same Putz era marketing that brought comparisons between the Chevy Cheapuinox vs. Lexus RX.
Putz is a blowhard. His arrogance came through loud and clear everytime he opened his trap. AFAIC he can fly his MIG or whatever jet he's flying at the time off into the sunset for good. :lemon:
Good riddance.
As for Toyota bragging about their fleet having the best fuel economy, has anyone else seen the VERY, VERY small print across the bottom of the TV screen that flashes for about a half-second that says "MY 2008 statistics"? Umm, that's nearly 4 MYs ago...
Allow time for a 2nd and 3rd reading after a few days in between.
The toyota people were able to do the Prius at a loss as a PR measure because they are essentially a privately run company. Mr. toyoda can make decisions to lose money just that way.
In contrast, the bloated MBA's at GM could never do something that would be a money loser because, well, the bean counters just couldn't stand to lose money on anything, even if it were to have the potential to be a great item to help the company image. That changed with the Solstice and the Volt.
It sounds like people come unhinged at the possibility there might be value to GM's understanding of their management problems in the past and the potential for good things in the future. Sort of like the global warming folks can't stand real data and information about global warming not being other than a religion.
I'm considering buying Lutz's book. I enjoy reading it.
Prime for enjoyment is how toyota ridiculed the theory of the Volt as an electric vehicle. Of course, their Peous is the only format US folk should buy because it's a hybrid and that's what toyota wanted to sell. They stated the battery technology wasn't there other than their own NiMH type batteries used in the Peous. They even called in the media for a seminar about how wrong GM was. They were attempting to use the media's long standing bias against anything GM did or didn't do.
Now the Volt is charging through the showrooms and into people's hands. Rather than embracing it as a new technology that is an electric vehicle that won't leave you stranded but will get much greater efficiency than the Peous, the few negatives are bandied about. Even selling in small numbers in a few states as a launch is criticized: that would be equivalent to what Japanese brands do by packaging things they sell elsewhere to get bugs out and then launching them here as though they were perfect from the start.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Just like the Malibu! Old at this point, GM still lags leaders in new upgrdes to their lines. Nothing new from GM which Akerson is desperately trying to change. The GM battleship slowly turns.... :sick:
Regards,
OW
Just like the Malibu! Old at this point, GM still lags leaders in new upgrades to their lines. Nothing new from GM which Akerson is desperately trying to change. The GM battleship slowly turns.... :sick:
Regards,
OW
new technologythat is an electric vehicle that won't leave you stranded
but will get much greater efficiency than the Peous,
"2011 Toyota Prius Is Most Fuel-Efficient Vehicle, Says EPA"
the few negatives are bandied about.
Like the 41 thousand dollar pricetag (before ADM, 50 if you check the options boxes), the 4 seater passenger capacity, the unproven history of long term reliability/dependibility vs 3 generations and 14 years of Prius history...
I have nothing against hybrid technology, but why does the Prius have to be so ugly? I'm reminded of an '80 Citation 4-door (yes, a GM product). The Volt may not be sexy, but next to the Prius it looks like Jennifer Garner next to Helen Mirren.
I agree, the Volt is way better looking than the Prius. :shades:
I bet Chevy could sell some two seater Volts down the road. It's not too far off from a roadster look.
Give them credit for understanding the marketing value of being a hybrid/image leader.
Sure it's 10% substance and 90% fluff, but it worked.
Meanwhile, opponents came out with lame mild hybrids that lost money and did nothing for their PR image.
how toyota ridiculed the theory of the Volt as an electric vehicle
Volt is a mild hybrid, albeit in reverse. The gas engine provides propulsion. So instead of a gas+electric mild hybrid, it is a electric+gas mild hybrid. It is not an EV by strict terms.
Now the Volt is charging through the showrooms
Is it? I thought volumes were small, and that's with a huge $7500 help.
By the way, I was pro-bailout. The economic problems what would have taken GM and Chrysler down were not created by them, is why I feel that way.
Still, you gotta wonder why the generator has an iron block and isn't the latest tech, which even an Accent has now.